DPI Engine Performance Stats: DYNO Results by the numbers

[Delorean Industries]

As promised we will be working through the task of representing every Delorean related performance figure available from stock configurations to our best offerings and the offerings of others. To insure clear results across the board I have opted to use the same dyno for all tests with the same correction figures etc. Unfortunately like any form of measurement correction can be added to inflate figures. In an effort to avoid this I have set a baseline with a stock car with the same base settings applied that will be used on all tests remaining. To increase accuracy we ran three different five speed stock Deloreans to confirm this as a reasonable figure.

Why is the power curve blotchy? Why does peak power fall off at 4200? The answer: the inefficient fuel and spark systems employed on a stock car. NOTE: I manually controlled AR on the second run holding as close to 14.7 as possible. The first run hit close to 18:1 air fuel..... Just playing with a messy adjustment with my hand on the metering plate brought almost 6hp out of a stock configuration. I have successfully worked out an additional 19hp with efi but on another dyno. This car will be run again on this dyno configuration to confirm the gain. ( I hate mustang dyno's anyways) Next run posted will be a stock automatic's power output.

[WelmoedJ]

Josh, can you elaborate on the dyno (brand/type) used?
How does the owner control that device's proper calibration?

If you have figures, please share them as we can do this over here (Europe) too.
That may give an extra set of reference material.

[Delorean Industries]

Josh, can you elaborate on the dyno (brand/type) used?
How does the owner control that device's proper calibration?

If you have figures, please share them as we can do this over here (Europe) too.
That may give an extra set of reference material.

We are performing all tests on a dyno dynamics unit. http://www.dyno.com.au/index.php/dynotch/dynotech2wddyno

What people do not understand is that inputs are calibrated and then translated into another form of data. Moving these numbers around results in different figures. (higher lower etc) I will post the running parameters when I am over there later today. This way everything our data is based off of will remain the same for all tests.

[Delorean Industries]

Thanks to our new arrangement we have 24 hour 7 day a week access to this set up.

[opethmike]

Really looking forward to seeing the dyno figures for the Spec II EFI set-up, as well as for the new NA project you've discussed with me.

[David T]

It's no surprise the dyno figures are so bad. The motor was designed for longevity for warranty purposes and to pass the EPA regs. The mechanical fuel injection is just not as tuneable as what you can get today for engine management. Add to that the gearing in the transmission was never optimized for the Delorean and there is a lot of room for performance improvement. As much as the car was hyped as a "sports car" it is not really and was never meant to be a high performance car. Because of the low air coefficient and the superb suspension Lotus designed there is a lot of potential if you want to spend big bucks. At least with this testing you will be able to make some informed decisions as to where to get the best bang for the buck.
David Teitelbaum

[LEVY]

Thanks to our new arrangement we have 24 hour 7 day a week access to this set up.

What is that?

I don't see the rear tires, just part of it.

LEVY

[Delorean Industries]

What is that?

I don't see the rear tires, just part of it.

LEVY

That is a chassis dyno. The err wheels are on the rollers.

[elfking]

Great to see someone getting the base lines done... I plan on running mine on the (chassis) dyno I have access to as well. Then after I put that Island Twin Turbo on I got from Josh!
I'll try and video it so if the internals decide to scatter we can all laugh while I cry, haha.

I believe that the chassis dyno's are most accurate. Most mustang / hub dynos I have compared with have seemingly been inflated numbers. ( also depends on calibration etc) anyways we will see...

[Delorean Industries]

Ran two more cars this morning. Yes the numbers are scary but extremely accurate. With that said enjoy! For those wanting to be technical on this data:
-tests on the two cars were performed at operating temp
-both cars were tested today on the same eddy current dyno. This is not an inertia dyno that gives inflated numbers due to run over. What you see is what it is. Our engine package use to produce more power as well but we have been proven wrong through extensive testing unfortunately. The first post in this thread shows a bone stock Delorean's figures. The lesson to be learned. Just like in the GM/Ford market place. WHP numbers are directly related to how you read them. You will have cheaper results on inefficient dynometers. We use to see anywhere between 137-144 whp before but this was thanks to an inertia system instead of eddy current.

-This test shows the top runs.
Max 110.3 on a Houston Stage II platform (camshafts, exhaust, head porting, and nology wires)
Max 111.9 HP DPI SPEC II platform (camshafts and exhaust)

With this being an automatic we will allow for a 15% drive train loss putting the BHP at:
Stage II 126.85bhp
SPEC II 128.69bhp

Hardly anything to be happy with. This just goes to show throwing cams and a exhaust system at an engine without the proper analysis isn't worth the money spent. Yes the power band is less restrictive and feels more free flowing but that is it.
I welcome anyone interested with a SPEC II or Stage II engine to stop by. We will run your car at my expense to show you this in person.


My goal here is simple. I'm redefining what the communities standard of performance for dollar spent is. In the end I will make all currently available engine packages obsolete through our new engine program. This includes anything sold in the past.

[Nicholas R]

Thank you for making this information available. I think it's very important for people to know what they're getting with any kit they buy. There is SO much over inflated information out there, it's awesome that you actually level the playing field and stick to the hard facts. From here I'm sure we'll continue to see improvements in the kits DPI has to offer :D.

[Silverbullet]

Josh,

In simple numbers... What is the HP of a Stock Delorean? Stage 1 Kit Delorean? Stage II Delorean?

On Average.....

Craig

[Shep]

Max 111.9 HP DPI SPEC II platform (camshafts and exhaust)
[...]
I welcome anyone interested with a SPEC II or Stage II engine to stop by. We will run your car at my expense to show you this in person.I see the SPEC II DeLorean you tested had both the exhaust and the camshafts. If you don't mind, when you put my D on the test chassis, could you run it on the Dyno? That'll give us performance figures for just the camshafts. Or if the test chassis part is already over, could you run it as-is? I'll be adding many miles in the near future anyways, one more mile is no big deal. ;)

[BABIS]

Josh,

In simple numbers... What is the HP of a Stock Delorean? Stage 1 Kit Delorean? Stage II Delorean?

On Average.....

Craig

from the first post I think the HP of a stock D are 89,7 ...

btw, we are talking about wheel HP right?

how much is the difference from the flywheel HP?

[Delorean Industries]

from the first post I think the HP of a stock D are 89,7 ...

btw, we are talking about wheel HP right?

how much is the difference from the flywhell HP?

Add 15 percent to the wheel horse power number.

[DMC5180]

Add 15 percent to the wheel horse power number.


HMM, Only 15% Whatever happened to the 30-40 % driveline loss that gets tossed about every so often. Martin G. says its 40% others say 30% (Industry standard)

[Delorean Industries]

HMM, Only 15% Whatever happened to the 30-40 % driveline loss that gets tossed about every so often. Martin G. says its 40% others say 30% (Industry standard)

Gm industry standard ie the ones that design and build the engines allocate for 15. That is who performs the testing for us. This is strictly third party testing not us.

[Delorean Industries]

In the past months we have finally handed engine development over to chuck wright of pro car. He has been in the industry for over fifty years at this point working for gm. When a gm performance engine is designed or ordered the call goes to him. I agree with him that the performance available now is junk. Time for a change and that requires more than just throwing parts at the prv platform. I am investing heavily in the complete redevelopment of the prv. What we have produced so far in testing is phenomenal. It's time for owners to demand a higher standard of excellence from engine providers in this community. That is what we are doing with a na platform.

[DMC5180]

Gm industry standard ie the ones that design and build the engines allocate for 15. That is who performs the testing for us. This is strictly third party testing not us.

Interesting :headscratch:

So what's next on the Upgraded configuration testing list?

[Delorean Industries]

Interesting :headscratch:

So what's next on the Upgraded configuration testing list?
testing all currently available platforms is auto and manual configuration. Then we show the power curve differences with our new mods ranging from flywheels to heads.

There is a reason why owners can be quoted with accounts of just an exhaust upgrade out performing internally modified engines in the community.....

[DMC5180]

What we have produced so far in testing is phenomenal. It's time for owners to demand a higher standard of excellence from engine providers in this community. That is what we are doing with a na platform.

"Phenomenal" on a NA platform seems rather contradictory for the PRV. Is EFI really that much better?

[Delorean Industries]

Just wait and see. We are no longer offering boosted applications because of this.

[DMC5180]

testing all currently available platforms is auto and manual configuration. Then we show the power curve differences with our new mods ranging from flywheels to heads.

There is a reason why owners can be quoted with accounts of just an exhaust upgrade out performing internally modified engines in the community.....

EFI, Turbo , Supercharged.

[Delorean Industries]

EFI, Turbo , Supercharged.

Efi of course. Naturally aspirated is the way to go. We will be hosting a customer test day early next year to debut the package options

[DMC5180]

Just wait and see. We are no longer offering boosted applications because of this.

I'll plan too be there for sure. My engine is due for major work in the near future due to an external Head gasket (seep). I'm looking at and considering my options for Upgrades Now.

[Delorean Industries]

Hold off just a little bit longer!

[opethmike]

:cry::cry::cry:

[jerzybondov]

I'm not sure how comparable these dyno runs from the UK are given the calibration of the machines may be different, but this was a Dyno Dynamics system that is used by many of the top manufacturers in the UK as a third party test for their cars that come off the production line (Porsche, Aston Martin and Audi all use this particular dyno). AFR curves may be of interest, even if power figures can't be directly compared.

Spec of the DeLorean on test:
B28E engine (differences are primarily absence of cat, higher compression than B28F, different ignition dizzy, larger air flow meter)
B28E cams reprofiled to fast road setup
UK stainless exhaust

[ramblinmike]

Where does the 197HP number come from that is so often thrown around? I'm a little confused.

[DMC5180]

Where does the 197HP number come from that is so often thrown around? I'm a little confused.

That's the stated Flywheel HP number Advertised on the DMCH site for a Stage II "Crate" engine. (10 years ago) It does not include drivetrain losses. It sounds better for advertising.

[Delorean Industries]

Where does the 197HP number come from that is so often thrown around? I'm a little confused.

That is what a stage II is rated at. I don't think anyone has seen that. I have one here that we will being throwing on the engine dyno. (not chassis as it reads crank hp ak bhp)

[ramblinmike]

That is what a stage II is rated at. I don't think anyone has seen that. I have one here that we will being throwing on the engine dyno. (not chassis as it reads crank hp ak bhp)

That's why I'm confused. If a stage II is rated at 197hp, a 15% loss is 167hp. That's 57hp more than what you just found. I don't understand why that is the case.

Thanks for the reply.

[Nicholas R]

That's why I'm confused. If a stage II is rated at 197hp, a 15% loss is 167hp. That's 57hp more than what you just found. I don't understand why that is the case.

Thanks for the reply.

It's all marketing. The stage III for instance only produces about 155hp at the wheels. Since most dynos calculate wheel horse power, it's pretty much up to whoever is selling to say, "well we assume a drivetrain loss of *this* so in reality the power at the flywheel is *this*." That way, it's not the fault of the kit that the power isn't higher, it's your drivetrain's fault. DMCH states here: http://www.dmchelp.com/content.php?123-Stage-I-II-and-III-pricing-and-details that they assume a loss of 32% through your drivetrain, so that when they say 197hp, you can have only 133 at the wheels and the kit is still valid.

Still, 110hp is low. That's a loss of 43%. The energy has to go somewhere, unless it wasn't there to begin with.

[DMCVegas]

"Phenomenal" on a NA platform seems rather contradictory for the PRV. Is EFI really that much better?

You've got to remember though that there isn't just a single version of the PRV. The later EFI versions as an example didn't need the bungs for the K-Jetronic fuel injectors, so the intake ports for each cylinder is larger. You also ended up with split journals that allowed for even-fire with the same 90° V6 configuration. And of course, yes, EFI is much more efficient. K-Jet is a CIS setup, or Constant Injection System. So even when the valves close, the injectors keep spraying. While the inefficient use of fuel, and the loss of atomized gasoline is minimal, every little bit counts. I also believe that I've also read from the Alpine clubs that with the older PRVs like we have here, that as the power output increases, fuel economy drastically plummets. Granted I think that any loss could be countered with proper aerodynamics that were for some reason omitted from the DeLorean, but that's another story.

I am a huge fan of the PRV as well as K-Jetronic. Both are amazing products and are from my own experience pretty damn reliable. But I really wonder how much further they can be taken. There is that fine balance between what could actually be done with the engines, and then how many people are willing to shell out the cash to proceed with the modifications to fund it's development. As someone with a blown head gasket and a car now needing a complete rebuild from both age and neglect, I too am interested in what options you'll have available for people like me, Josh.

[ramblinmike]

It's all marketing. The stage III for instance only produces about 155hp at the wheels. Since most dynos calculate wheel horse power, it's pretty much up to whoever is selling to say, "well we assume a drivetrain loss of *this* so in reality the power at the flywheel is *this*." That way, it's not the fault of the kit that the power isn't higher, it's your drivetrain's fault. DMCH states here: http://www.dmchelp.com/content.php?123-Stage-I-II-and-III-pricing-and-details that they assume a loss of 32% through your drivetrain, so that when they say 197hp, you can have only 133 at the wheels and the kit is still valid.

Still, 110hp is low. That's a loss of 43%. The energy has to go somewhere, unless it wasn't there to begin with.

You're right - the energy has to go somewhere. That's what is bothering me.

Wouldn't a 32% loss mean that the transmission and the rest of the drivetrain would be glowing red from friction? I would assume it would go to heat.

[louielouie2000]

I don't think it's fair to foist all the blame on DMCH for posting inflated hp numbers when it looks like DPI has done the same thing... perhaps without even having tested their engines in the first place. Up until the last week or so, DPI advertised on their site that their Spec II engines put out 210hp. Obviously with these dyno tests that number is not possibly correct & now these figures are missing from DPI's website. There is just no way 80hp is lost through the drivetrain. We shouldn't just pick on DMCH and DPI either, because I've heard about Martin Gutkowski's "260 hp" turbo cars being vastly overrated in regards to hp claims as well. Distrubuting unsubstantiated performance figures seems to be standard practice in the DeLorean community.

[Delorean Industries]

As stated above Louie. We have moved away from inertia dyno's and a 30-40 percent DTL correction. As we run each package independently I will have our site updated with the to date figures.

[Delorean Industries]

I don't think it's fair to foist all the blame on DMCH for posting inflated hp numbers when it looks like DPI has done the same thing... perhaps without even having tested their engines in the first place. Up until the last week or so, DPI advertised on their site that their Spec II engines put out 210hp. Obviously with these dyno tests that number is not possibly correct & now these figures are missing from DPI's website. There is just no way 80hp is lost through the drivetrain. We shouldn't just pick on DMCH and DPI either, because I've heard about Martin Gutkowski's "260 hp" turbo cars being vastly overrated in regards to hp claims as well. Distrubuting unsubstantiated performance figures seems to be standard practice in the DeLorean community.

And that is what I'm working to set straight. Yes any of us can make those numbers if we over run a cheap inaccurate dyno. Now there is a baseline for us and others if they choose to work from. Obviously I wouldn't have even gotten into this fact finding mission if I wasn't already sure of something.

[Delorean Industries]

It's all marketing. The stage III for instance only produces about 155hp at the wheels. Since most dynos calculate wheel horse power, it's pretty much up to whoever is selling to say, "well we assume a drivetrain loss of *this* so in reality the power at the flywheel is *this*." That way, it's not the fault of the kit that the power isn't higher, it's your drivetrain's fault. DMCH states here: http://www.dmchelp.com/content.php?123-Stage-I-II-and-III-pricing-and-details that they assume a loss of 32% through your drivetrain, so that when they say 197hp, you can have only 133 at the wheels and the kit is still valid.

Still, 110hp is low. That's a loss of 43%. The energy has to go somewhere, unless it wasn't there to begin with.

Yeah I"m thinking it wasn't there.

[Denver DMC]

Gm industry standard ie the ones that design and build the engines allocate for 15. That is who performs the testing for us. This is strictly third party testing not us.

Thanks for doing this testing, Josh. From the article below, taken from the Edmunds website, it appears that although a 15% loss is often quoted by manufacturers, a 20% horsepower loss is a more typical finding in the field. An excerpt from: http://www.edmunds.com/car-technology/horsepower-gross-vs-real-world.html

. . . . How much less wheel-driven horsepower will depend on how many mechanical parts exist between a vehicle's engine and its driven wheels. Since we already mentioned a late-model Corvette, we'll use it as our example. The 345 horsepower that initiate in the Corvette's engine compartment have to travel through a transmission, driveshaft, rear-differential, and two axle shafts (one for each rear wheel). That's four separate mechanical components taking a bite out of the `Vette's horsepower before the rear wheels even begin to turn. Suddenly, the 285 wheel-driven horsepower rating doesn't seem so hard to believe.

On front-wheel drive cars with transverse-mounted engines, the frictional loss is often less severe because horsepower only has to travel from the engine, through the transmission and down two short driveshafts before reaching the wheels. It should be noted, however, that in the same HOT ROD article, a front-wheel drive Dodge Neon R/T, rated at 150 net horsepower, could only muster 117.1 wheel-driven horsepower when placed on a dynamometer.
Obviously, another factor to consider in this discussion is how accurately the manufacturers rate their own engines. It's hard to believe that the Corvette and Neon could lose 17 and 22 percent of their engine's horsepower in just frictional losses. Most experts agree that a 10 to 15 percent loss is normal. This does not necessarily mean that the manufacturers are lying. The additional drop could come from a number of causes including variations in engine performance and dynamometer readings. It could also be that the manufacturers are dealing with an expertly tuned engine's running under controlled conditions in a laboratory rather than a mass-produced engine that was put together on an assembly line and sold at a dealer's lot.
Whatever the cause, it's important to remember that there will be a loss of horsepower between the engine and the rear wheels. If you really want to know how powerful a vehicle is, test drive it. If you're looking for an accurate horsepower figure, a dynamometer run is the only way to know for sure.


A 43% loss makes no sense, other than the conclusion that the horses were never at the flywheel.

Peter

[Bitsyncmaster]

Why do we care what the engine HP is as long as we just compare the HP produced at the wheels. Yes the Auto and 5 speed may have different losses but if we get a few base line tests on both we could get a good guess at the difference.

[Delorean Industries]

We will have the actual BHP which is what technically matters by default since all engines are now run across the engine dyno here prior to install.

[DMC5180]

So you are actually taking each engine you build and placing it on a test stand dyno?

A general picture of a PRV all hooked up would be nice to see just to give us an idea of what that looks like. We are accustomed to seeing chassis dynos. Even a Youtube video of one running would be cool too see.

[Delorean Industries]

So you are actually taking each engine you build and placing it on a test stand dyno?

A general picture of a PRV all hooked up would be nice to see just to give us an idea of what that looks like. We are accustomed to seeing chassis dynos. Even a Youtube video of one running would be cool too see.

I'm not personally as it is done for us at our builder. Every engine will have a build sheet as well.

On another important note I am in the process of drafting a letter to all owners running our previously incorrect dyno statistics. If desired these owners will have the option to upgrade to our latest system tested to these standards free of charge. It is our fault for accepting 30 percent plus whp dtl figures and while they are technically accurate for the mode of testing used it does not represent what it should. I stand behind what we produce here especially when proven wrong.

[Kenny_Z]

If desired these owners will have the option to upgrade to our latest system tested to these standards free of charge.

That's awesome. I doubt you'd find any company out there that would follow suit. Very impressive.

[Nicholas R]

That's awesome. I doubt you'd find any company out there that would follow suit. Very impressive.

Agreed! Damn that's what I call a business standing behind their work! :D

[Jacko]

I stand behind what we produce here especially when proven wrong.I am seriously considering adopting this statement as a motto for my company ... :tongue2:

j/k Josh

[Delorean Industries]

This has been a very difficult blow to take. When we embarked on this second engine program I never thought it would go this direction. This has been the direct result of dealing with big number people. IE dyno shops who excel at making big numbers. Spend any time on other forums and the dyno sheet is constantly contested. Within this community there has been nothing. Not to mention no one questioning the output of packages from suppliers. (which strikes me as odd) The engineers and associated staff I employ to make our program grow in a new direction are regarded as the best.

I have received a number of emails saying why not leave well enough alone. Sorry but that isn't going to happen! The solution to power isn't throwing components at an engine it is in the numbers. Six months ago I would have said not a chance to performing in depth combustion analysis on both the 2.8 and 3.0 platforms. Now 15k+ later on these tests alone we understand the combustion pressures, where the camshafts should be cut, how the heads should flow. The end result will be the most refined engine available for the Dmc-12. This isn't the mentality of throw ten grand at boostec, wait five years and still run K jet with a squared off muffler. This is spend tens of thousands of dollars on R&D with the right people and right off the expenses, produce a superior product and corner the market just for the fun of it.

Who ever innovates the market (tastefully) ends up on top.

[thirdmanj]

This has been a very difficult blow to take. When we embarked on this second engine program I never thought it would go this direction. This has been the direct result of dealing with big number people. IE dyno shops who excel at making big numbers. Spend any time on other forums and the dyno sheet is constantly contested. Within this community there has been nothing. Not to mention no one questioning the output of packages from suppliers. (which strikes me as odd) The engineers and associated staff I employ to make our program grow in a new direction are regarded as the best.

I have received a number of emails saying why not leave well enough alone. Sorry but that isn't going to happen! The solution to power isn't throwing components at an engine it is in the numbers. Six months ago I would have said not a chance to performing in depth combustion analysis on both the 2.8 and 3.0 platforms. Now 15k+ later on these tests alone we understand the combustion pressures, where the camshafts should be cut, how the heads should flow. The end result will be the most refined engine available for the Dmc-12. This isn't the mentality of throw ten grand at boostec, wait five years and still run K jet with a squared off muffler. This is spend tens of thousands of dollars on R&D with the right people and right off the expenses, produce a superior product and corner the market just for the fun of it.

Who ever innovates the market (tastefully) ends up on top.

You talk a good talk Josh. But I won't be impressed until you have a logo bearing, laser pointing, 4gb memory pen. :p so there!

[Delorean Industries]

Dude. I'm sending you a DPI toaster. I'm going to start laser etching our logo onto every Hamilton beach stainless product I can find and market it up 500%.

[thirdmanj]

Dude. I'm sending you a DPI toaster. I'm going to start laser etching our logo onto every Hamilton beach stainless product I can find and market it up 500%.

:hysterical:

[Dangermouse]

You can have this or you can have that....

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS28vBnN0-I-3gwDwIJy3j8E9eRKNpMPsV8h7Bjw76IWgD9noi_Tg

[WelmoedJ]

You can have this or you can have that....

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS28vBnN0-I-3gwDwIJy3j8E9eRKNpMPsV8h7Bjw76IWgD9noi_Tg

The right one also cordless? :hihi2:

BTW: This thread is top, thanks to Josh's explanations and figures.
I'll try and find a shop over here that can re-do the dyno work on my car.
Thereafter I too most likely have to report lower data than before.
We'll see.

[Mark D]

This thread is really interesting! I'll be keeping a close eye for sure.

I'm considering engine/exhaust upgrades in the future so it will be nice to have some accurate comparisons between the options when it comes time to open my wallet.

[dmc6960]

Agreed. And I think that when I finally finish everything with my EFI conversion (still need to put in a bigger TB and control ignition), I'll want a dyno run done on one of your systems. I'd be very interested to know where I ended up after "throwing" components at my engine.

[Silverbullet]

The Stage 1 exhaust, and Coil kit.... Parts on a car...Any Gain in HP? I put it on mine... It is worth the money, just for the way it sounds... I "THINK" it feels great with power, seat of the pants... but even if it is all just noise, I like it. Is there a gain?

[Delorean Industries]

The Stage 1 exhaust, and Coil kit.... Parts on a car...Any Gain in HP? I put it on mine... It is worth the money, just for the way it sounds... I "THINK" it feels great with power, seat of the pants... but even if it is all just noise, I like it. Is there a gain?

I'm putting the exhaust data together now. Our spec one kit is doing exactly what it was Designed to do. All of our revisions are internal components only. Our exhaust will remain the same. No performance issues with the spec one system.

[nullset]

Josh, you're such a tease!

I was just thinking about starting my 3.0 build. Now I'm wondering if I wait until something falls out of your magic hat.

--buddy

[ZX-14]

,I read through this thread to see what head/cam packages the aftermarket has come up with. All I can say is wow....

Power comes from the cams, heads and compression. 2.8 liters and the fact that its a Volvo with a fuel distributor seems to be a cop out.

I have seen 1.6 liter Honda motors make 200 hp normally aspirated on pump gas with pistons, valves, milled and ported head and big cams. +90 hp over the baseline on a Dynojet dyno.

Sounds to me that whoever is building these combos is taking people to the cleaners...

I have built Z28's, mustangs, motorcycles, outboard motors, etc. They all made measurable, undeniable horsepower over their original form.

Just because it's a delorean doesn't mean it wont make power.

Question is, what shop is going to step up and bring out something that works?

This thread is depressing IMHO

[opethmike]

Question is, what shop is going to step up and bring out something that works?

This thread is depressing IMHO

The whole point of this thread is that Josh @ DPI is working with a GM engineering person to develop a real power solution. I believe he has said around spring time for the packages to come out.

[SamHill]

The whole point of this thread is that Josh @ DPI is working with a GM engineering person to develop a real power solution. I believe he has said around spring time for the packages to come out.

Very vague. Are we talking about the further polishing of PRV turds or some sort of standardized engine swap.

[thirdmanj]

Very vague. Are we talking about the further polishing of PRV turds or some sort of standardized engine swap.

Josh is working his magic Sam. I do mean magic. He doesn't do anything less than 150%, and I'm sure he's gonna shine the hell out of that PRV turd! From what I understand he will be using the PRV.

[thirdmanj]

Yes, everything is still Bill's fault, including my humor. Bill ruins everything, including discussions of a Boxer Turbo Diesel instead of yet another massaging of "Le PRV."

I'll reserve judgement until I see what Josh delivers. He will deliver, and whatever he's doing will probably be ready before Houston's binnacle project. ;) Seriously though, there's no reason to think Josh won't do something incredible with the PRV. He's got some pretty high standards.

[SamHill]

I'll reserve judgement until I see what Josh delivers. He will deliver, and whatever he's doing will probably be ready before Houston's binnacle project. ;) Seriously though, there's no reason to think Josh won't do something incredible with the PRV. He's got some pretty high standards.

It all looks very nice. A new (and warantied) drivetrain alternative would be REALLY exciting. Jus' sayin, that's all.

[vwdmc16]

And once you have all the power you can reasonably use/put down in the rear, you are not going to want a sway bar in the rear taking away traction. Remember sway bars dont add traction to the axle they are on, they move it to the opposite end. If you want to control body roll you have to do it with springs and dampening. But like Nick mentioned, a tight rear LSD would help alot too. I wish there were more options than just the Quaife unit.

[Delorean Industries]

And once you have all the power you can reasonably use/put down in the rear, you are not going to want a sway bar in the rear taking away traction. Remember sway bars dont add traction to the axle they are on, they move it to the opposite end. If you want to control body roll you have to do it with springs and dampening. But like Nick mentioned, a tight rear LSD would help alot too. I wish there were more options than just the Quaife unit.

There is another that is better and more reasonably priced that I use. Met with the distributor again at pri here in Florida this past week as they are also making our primary shafts as well for our private label trans offerings.

This last week has been very productive. Now that we are past the proto phase and into production I'm pitting suppliers against each other for the best price on our custom internals. The winning bids did not go to the absolute cheapest as the majority of west coast companies import blanks from china. I found more reasonable avenues as in current cost form it is nearly 19k per engine.

[Bill Robertson's Sock Puppet #1]

Yea, I'm going to disagree with you there... Come on over sometime if you disagree :biggrin:

I swear that handling is better having the weight over the rear wheels. Only thing I would say now is to loose the open differential.

Weight isn't over the rear axle -- it's behind the rear axle. No different than driving a badly loaded truck. In a hard corner the tail will wag the dog. I've passed myself with a pedestrian PRV in the back.

Kyle Franklin (Chevy 350 repower) raced his car straight line only for that very reason.

Concerning lack of rear sway bar: Jeff Dickey has pics worse than this:
http://www.powerofdc.com/photos/2011/ac_delorean_cornering_800.jpg
I'll eMail him for copies and post. Rear body roll is so embarrassing he gave up autocrossing his DeLorean.

[WelmoedJ]

"But like Nick mentioned, a tight rear LSD would help alot too."

Some abbreviations raise eyebrows when your mother tongue is not English.
Aneybody care to elaborate on "LSD", that is except the one of the drug?

Thanks for enlightening me.

[BABIS]

Some abbreviations raise eyebrows when your mother tongue is not English.
Aneybody care to elaborate on "LSD", that is except the one of the drug?

Thanks for enlightening me.

limited slip differential

[MFaulks]

Interesting - going back to the tramsmission losses, from the measurements I have taken over the years, the UN1 manual box losses are average 23-24Hp, highest I have ever seen is 32hp. Note a significant contribution factor is the width of the contact patch - tyre width, and if a chassis dyno is used consistent hot tyre pressures. It's not a simple percentage, and there is no physical reason why that would be the case. These numbers come from repeated chassis and hub dyno runs. Tyre width, pressure, compound, temperature were always logged when using a chassis dyno.

Martin

[opethmike]

Weight isn't over the rear axle -- it's behind the rear axle. No different than driving a badly loaded truck. In a hard corner the tail will wag the dog. I've passed myself with a pedestrian PRV in the back.

Kyle Franklin (Chevy 350 repower) raced his car straight line only for that very reason.

Concerning lack of rear sway bar: Jeff Dickey has pics worse than this:
http://www.powerofdc.com/photos/2011/ac_delorean_cornering_800.jpg
I'll eMail him for copies and post. Rear body roll is so embarrassing he gave up autocrossing his DeLorean.

Thanks for the picture, Bill. Pretty crazy body roll, for sure.

[sdg3205]

Weight isn't over the rear axle -- it's behind the rear axle. No different than driving a badly loaded truck. In a hard corner the tail will wag the dog. I've passed myself with a pedestrian PRV in the back.

Rear body roll is so embarrassing he gave up autocrossing his DeLorean.

These cars are just terrible, eh Bill?

Toby has a rear sway bar on his car and has nothing but good things to say about it, and he's not even selling them as a product. He mentioned some designs will cause frame cracks, which is probably why these aren't sold at the moment.

[BABIS]

These cars are just terrible, eh Bill?

Toby has a rear sway bar on his car and has nothing but good things to say about it, and he's not even selling them as a product. He mentioned some designs will cause frame cracks, which is probably why these aren't sold at the moment.

toby isn't selling his own sway bars because he can't find someone who can produce them. the rear bar which brokes the frames is the Addco one..

anyway, Josh is producing a really nice rear bar, with a design never seen before in the D.

[Bill Robertson's Sock Puppet #1]

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/14289_484560608255861_2138699544_n.jpg

Excessive body roll doesn't mean DeLoreans are terrible cars of course, just that they are out of their element when autocrossing (kind of like autocrossing a school bus).

[DMC5180]

Josh is producing a really nice rear bar, with a design never seen before in the D.

Is it currently available or another one of those next spring things?

[Delorean Industries]

Is it currently available or another one of those next spring things?

Available now. I posted earlier that pics are on our Facebook page I believe. I will load these directly on here when my flight lands.

[Nicholas R]

There is another that is better and more reasonably priced that I use. Met with the distributor again at pri here in Florida this past week as they are also making our primary shafts as well for our private label trans offerings.

This last week has been very productive. Now that we are past the proto phase and into production I'm pitting suppliers against each other for the best price on our custom internals. The winning bids did not go to the absolute cheapest as the majority of west coast companies import blanks from china. I found more reasonable avenues as in current cost form it is nearly 19k per engine.

Was this concerning limited slip differentials?? If so, then more info please! :D

I was driving home from Ken K's shop tonight in the rain and was reminded again just how important and LSD can be.

[Delorean Industries]

Was this concerning limited slip differentials?? If so, then more info please! :D

I was driving home from Ken K's shop tonight in the rain and was reminded again just how important and LSD can be.

Yes Nick, It will come standard with our new offering for five speed vehicles. It will be available separate in our SPEC II trans offering as well.

[ZX-14]

Still waiting on an explanation of why a motor in a car that has been around for 30+ years hasn't had a shop/builder or tuner produce an engine build package with 200 normally aspirated RWHP..

[thirdmanj]

Still waiting on an explanation of why a motor in a car that has been around for 30+ years hasn't had a shop/builder or tuner produce an engine build package with 200 normally aspirated RWHP..

Probably because there wasn't, and still isn't a big enough market to justify all the money required for its R&D.

You make it sound like its a simple matter, that should "just been done already". How's about, in your spare time, you do it.

[opethmike]

Probably because there wasn't, and still isn't a big enough market to justify all the money required for its R&D.

You make it sound like its a simple matter, that should "just been done already". How's about, in your spare time, you do it.

I agree with James. The DeLorean aside, for what cars running this engine is there a demand for a performance engine? And even then, the DeLorean market is reallllllly small. Certainly isn't a money making business decision to develop a powerful engine.

[ZX-14]

Probably because there wasn't, and still isn't a big enough market to justify all the money required for its R&D.

You make it sound like its a simple matter, that should "just been done already". How's about, in your spare time, you do it.


Well I guess that's what "they" were thinking when the stage 2 and stage 3 motors went on market. So are you saying thats the reason those packages don't make any power (according to this thread topic).?

Too much money for a machine shop to shave, port and flow a head, spec the cams, measure PVC or verify quench?

Yet most anyone with a Delorean pays thousands to restore the car, I guess no one has any money left for a bump in horsepower...

If you say so.....

[sdg3205]

Just a reminder: the stage 3 (whether you like it or not) exists and is truly IMO a viable upgrade. Having seen and heard it at Toby's last year and talking to Jon about its driving experience I was honestly blown away. It's hard to believe its a 2.8 when it fires up.

From what i remember, it combines digital technology with the original analogue ecu systems. Not too shabby for the sake of originality. Oh yeah it also goes like stink from what I've heard. Is it worth $13? That's up to you to decide.

Performance comes at a cost. What are you willing to pay? Pretty sure if you called up Steve or James and told them you'd give them a million bucks if they could get your PRV to produce 200 whp, you'd get 200 whp. Money talks and walks... er... revs.

I'm not say'n, but I'm just say'n :)

[Delorean Industries]

Still waiting on an explanation of why a motor in a car that has been around for 30+ years hasn't had a shop/builder or tuner produce an engine build package with 200 normally aspirated RWHP..


Because it is a PRV and no one cares. No one felt the need to professionally innovate the dmc-12 chassis until I started my company. Is it a money making investment? Absolutely not. My goal is to offer something that is so far ahead of everyone else that their really isn't a choice to be made. Basically when I feel it is time I will release the package with statistics to back it up. If you would like one send in your car and we will perform the install. There are currently two ecu tunes that will be available priced accordingly. One will be the mid range output and second our top offering. Yes the difference between a considerable amount of power is provided by the tune. All in sealed tamper proof engine management system built for us. With the option to flash to our premium engine map at a prorated cost in the future.This is not intended to be a tuner kit for owners to play with and is built accordingly. The engine and ecu are sealed for the owners protection. The internals utilized with the prv are manufactured to different tolerances than stock. IE stock bearings, pistons, liners etc are not direct replacements.
The build list is already a few deep with the spec build of feb 2013 including this package as the first DPI Spec car to leave here with the setup.

[thirdmanj]

Thanks Josh.

[Delorean Industries]

Thanks Josh.

anytime.

[opethmike]

Because it is a PRV and no one cares. No one felt the need to professionally innovate the dmc-12 chassis until I started my company. Is it a money making investment? Absolutely not. My goal is to offer something that is so far ahead of everyone else that their really isn't a choice to be made. Basically when I feel it is time I will release the package with statistics to back it up. If you would like one send in your car and we will perform the install. There are currently two ecu tunes that will be available priced accordingly. One will be the mid range output and second our top offering. Yes the difference between a considerable amount of power is provided by the tune. All in sealed tamper proof engine management system built for us. With the option to flash to our premium engine map at a prorated cost in the future.This is not intended to be a tuner kit for owners to play with and is built accordingly. The engine and ecu are sealed for the owners protection. The internals utilized with the prv are manufactured to different tolerances than stock. IE stock bearings, pistons, liners etc are not direct replacements.
The build list is already a few deep with the spec build of feb 2013 including this package as the first DPI Spec car to leave here with the setup.

Can't wait to upgrade my current spec 2 to the new spec 2!

[Delorean Industries]

as promised for current spec II owners package upgrades will be available.

[Jason]

So my new Spec 2 upgrade, which I drove for the first time this week, is already obsolete? Doh!

Feels just like buying a computer. :)

[Delorean Industries]

There will be an optional cam/head update for interested owners with the current package. How does the rebuild feel Jason?

[Jason]

There will be an optional cam/head update for interested owners with the current package. How does the rebuild feel Jason?

It has more get up and go, though not dramatically so. But I haven't really pushed it because I'm still letting the engine break in, and I'm running with the original, untouched, 30 year old K-Jet setup. I probably should at least replace or clean the injectors.

Otherwise it mostly feels different. Different sounds, different vibrations, even a different smell to the engine after its been running. So something in my brain keeps thinking that something must be wrong somewhere.

But so for so good. It got me to and from work today, and feels like it could do a respectable job trying to keep up with my Mini Cooper S.

[Delorean Industries]

It has more get up and go, though not dramatically so. But I haven't really pushed it because I'm still letting the engine break in, and I'm running with the original, untouched, 30 year old K-Jet setup. I probably should at least replace or clean the injectors.

Otherwise it mostly feels different. Different sounds, different vibrations, even a different smell to the engine after its been running. So something in my brain keeps thinking that something must be wrong somewhere.

But so for so good. It got me to and from work today, and feels like it could do a respectable job trying to keep up with my Mini Cooper S.

Agreed on the above K jet suggestions. How many miles are currently on the engine since you completed the rebuild?

[Jason]

Agreed on the above K jet suggestions. How many miles are currently on the engine since you completed the rebuild?

About 70.

[Delorean Industries]

keep driving it. Monitor the oil level constantly as ring break in period can very cylinder to cylinder.

[ZX-14]

Just a reminder: the stage 3 (whether you like it or not) exists and is truly IMO a viable upgrade. Having seen and heard it at Toby's last year and talking to Jon about its driving experience I was honestly blown away. It's hard to believe its a 2.8 when it fires up.

From what i remember, it combines digital technology with the original analogue ecu systems. Not too shabby for the sake of originality. Oh yeah it also goes like stink from what I've heard. Is it worth $13? That's up to you to decide.

Performance comes at a cost. What are you willing to pay? Pretty sure if you called up Steve or James and told them you'd give them a million bucks if they could get your PRV to produce 200 whp, you'd get 200 whp. Money talks and walks... er... revs.

I'm not say'n, but I'm just say'n :)


Maybe I'm missing something... I'm not sending my car off to have it built. I would like to order the hard parts and put it together myself. As I do with an LS1, my Kawasaki drag bikes, my Jeep CJ, etc...

If I need a flashed PCM to go with it, then I will buy that too.

[Delorean Industries]

Maybe I'm missing something... I'm not sending my car off to have it built. I would like to order the hard parts and put it together myself. As I do with an LS1, my Kawasaki drag bikes, my Jeep CJ, etc...

If I need a flashed PCM to go with it, then I will buy that too.

That is no longer an option with our products. Other than exhaust systems everything is in house only. The same is true for our competition. The components are not bolt in and require extensive professional experience.

[ZX-14]

That is no longer an option with our products. Other than exhaust systems everything is in house only. The same is true for our competition. The components are not bolt in and require extensive professional experience.

Thanks for responding, but forgive the question about "extensive professional experience". Is that pertaining to the Delorean itself or mechanics with experience building a wide variety of motors from the crankshaft up such as myself?

Everything I put together "bolts in" aside from fabbing stuff up to make it work in an application contrary to OEM.

[Delorean Industries]

Thanks for responding, but forgive the question about "extensive professional experience". Is that pertaining to the Delorean itself or mechanics with experience building a wide variety of motors from the crankshaft up such as myself?

Everything I put together "bolts in" aside from fabbing stuff up to make it work in an application contrary to OEM.

All internals are machined in house on our end within 10th of a thousandths. It would be physically impossible to take our components and install into your engine for example.

[ZX-14]

All internals are machined in house on our end within 10th of a thousandths. It would be physically impossible to take our components and install into your engine for example.

Example, If I had a cylinder head milled .040 from you guys, I couldn't just set my piston to valve clearance by degreeing the camshafts?

[Delorean Industries]

Example, If I had a cylinder head milled .040 from you guys, I couldn't just set my piston to valve clearance by degreeing the camshafts?

No, the cams are not adjustable. We do not increase compression by decking either.

[ZX-14]

No, the cams are not adjustable. We do not increase compression by decking either.

An easy fix by slotting the sprocket or making adjustable ones. Assuming the PRV has chain driven cams ;)

Compression can also be raised with pistons, and there are aftermarket pistons for this PRV already, mainly for boost applications, either way- I understand what your offering (though haven't the slightest idea the details).

It will be interesting to see the results of your packages- at least someone is stepping up I suppose...

[Delorean Industries]

An easy fix by slotting the sprocket or making adjustable ones. Assuming the PRV has chain driven cams ;)

Compression can also be raised with pistons, and there are aftermarket pistons for this PRV already, mainly for boost applications, either way- I understand what your offering (though haven't the slightest idea the details).

It will be interesting to see the results of your packages- at least someone is stepping up I suppose...

We do not hack up stock components to create adjustment like that. I thought your question was based on stock internal prv principles as I stated earlier our full package items do not fit. Our billet camshafts are adjustable with a pressed on collar for the pick up wheels.

The only piston available currently is a relief mold off version manufactured to a stock cylinder bore size. Which is an issue as all engines available are worn to a degree. We are the only source currently new matched liner piston combinations with the proper offset pin.

It's not all about porting and raising the compression.

[ZX-14]

We do not hack up stock components to create adjustment like that. I thought your question was based on stock internal prv principles as I stated earlier our full package items do not fit. Our billet camshafts are adjustable with a pressed on collar for the pick up wheels.

The only piston available currently is a relief mold off version manufactured to a stock cylinder bore size. Which is an issue as all engines available are worn to a degree. We are the only source currently new matched liner piston combinations with the proper offset pin.

It's not all about porting and raising the compression.


I see, so the liners with the pistons guarantee a fit.?

Arias and CP have made forged pistons for the PRV.

I am looking for power to come from the camshafts and from headwork, then let it all flow through a set of headers and a good exhaust.

But I understand what you are saying.

[Delorean Industries]

I see, so the liners with the pistons guarantee a fit.?

Arias and CP have made forged pistons for the PRV.

I am looking for power to come from the camshafts and from headwork, then let it all flow through a set of headers and a good exhaust.

But I understand what you are saying.

Arias does not make working forged pistons for the prv. They tolerances are very wrong.

CP pistons are for the 3.0 bore size.

Liners and pistons are available for stock applications along with our cylinder heads and camshaft bolt on package. All are now revised. These can be bolted onto a stock bottom end.
Standard liner kit here:
https://www.deloreanindustries.com/shop/parts/kits/kits-engine/engine-piston-liner-kit-new.html

To be clear our bolt on upgrades will be available in revised format. But our SPEC II complete engine packages which do not utilize stock internals is a sealed unit.

[Chris Burns]

This is just my 2 cents, but when I get a Delorean the only major thing I would do to the engine is an exhaust kit. It's interesting to see the different things people do sometimes. I'm happy with the stock motor though. Unless you are talking about the 2JZ Delorean, the LS-Delorean, or the Lotus V8 Delorean, they are not really meant for going fast.

[thirdmanj]

This is just my 2 cents, but when I get a Delorean the only major thing I would do to the engine is an exhaust kit. It's interesting to see the different things people do sometimes. I'm happy with the stock motor though. Unless you are talking about the 2JZ Delorean, the LS-Delorean, or the Lotus V8 Delorean, they are not really meant for going fast.

I'll contradict you there Chris. Given her design, I'd say she was most certainly meant to go fast. Many reviews I've read and my personal observations leave me with the conclusion that the DMC-12s potential was not fully realized in the overall execution of the finished product. She is a Lotus with an inferior power plant.

[opethmike]

I'll contradict you there Chris. Given her design, I'd say she was most certainly meant to go fast. Many reviews I've read and my personal observations leave me with the conclusion that the DMC-12s potential was not met in the overall execution of the finished product. She is a Lotus with an inferior power plant.

I agree. I have driven a handful of Esprits from the early 80s. The resemblance of the driving experience to the DeLorean isn't super close of anything, but you can see a sort of similarity. The DeLorean feels like a significantly down tuned Esprit in every aspect; the most noticeable being the power.

[Nicholas R]

This is just my 2 cents, but when I get a Delorean the only major thing I would do to the engine is an exhaust kit. It's interesting to see the different things people do sometimes. I'm happy with the stock motor though. Unless you are talking about the 2JZ Delorean, the LS-Delorean, or the Lotus V8 Delorean, they are not really meant for going fast.

Dont make any assumptions about what you'll want to do with the car until you get one. You never know what you'll get into or what opportunities will come along. ;)

If there had been a viable and cost effective PRV upgrade on the market last year, there's a good possiblity I wouldn't have pursued my project.

Please note, this is not to say there are not *some* options out there and I dont mean to insult any vendors. What's on the market right now does not do it for me. That being said, this work that Josh is doing is certainly a breath of fresh air, I believe some pretty awesome options are going to come out of it. Just because the numbers aren't quite there yet, doesn't mean they wont get there. And when they do, I believe Josh is going to have people lined up at his door to upgrade their cars. :thumbup:

When presented with this option, I think everyone will (at least briefly) take a second look at their appreciation for the 'stock setup'.

[Dangermouse]

Let me elaborate on your thoughts, if I may.


I'll contradict you there Chris. Given her design, I'd say she was most certainly meant to go fast, by 1981 standards. Many reviews I've read and my personal observations leave me with the conclusion that the DMC-12s potential was not fully realized in the overall execution of the finished product. She is a Lotus with an inferior power plant.

[thirdmanj]

Let me elaborate on your thoughts, if I may.

She was still slow by 1981s standards, so it's a moot point.

[ZX-14]

Arias does not make working forged pistons for the prv. They tolerances are very wrong.

CP pistons are for the 3.0 bore size.

Liners and pistons are available for stock applications along with our cylinder heads and camshaft bolt on package. All are now revised. These can be bolted onto a stock bottom end.
Standard liner kit here:
https://www.deloreanindustries.com/shop/parts/kits/kits-engine/engine-piston-liner-kit-new.html

To be clear our bolt on upgrades will be available in revised format. But our SPEC II complete engine packages which do not utilize stock internals is a sealed unit.



So am I reading this correctly? You do have a camshaft and cylinder head package?


CP in fact WILL build you a piston to your spec. Been there and did that twice.

[Delorean Industries]

So am I reading this correctly? You do have a camshaft and cylinder head package?


CP in fact WILL build you a piston to your spec. Been there and did that twice.

Well yeah any of them will try. All but two manufactures cut from the same blanks.

Yes head and cam packages will be available for the owners who currently have our packages and want to upgrade from current form.

[ZX-14]

Ok, sounds good for the guys who already went with your package before.

But you will not sell the head and cam package to someone who has not had a motor built by you in the past?

[ZX-14]

-crickets-

[Delorean Industries]

Ok, sounds good for the guys who already went with your package before.

But you will not sell the head and cam package to someone who has not had a motor built by you in the past?

No it will be in shop only as mentioned in previous posts.

[ZX-14]

No it will be in shop only as mentioned in previous posts.

Alrighty then...I guess that works over here on this forum, as I see you have
a substantial following.

Hope you didn't mind all of the questions.. You see, I am used to forums like LS1 Tech, where there are multiple vendors as well as accredited racers and mechanics with proven results and products. Everyone over there is subject to the proper amount of scrutiny from all. But of course we are talking about GM performance there and I guess it's not apples to apples.

I have received some helpful info from members here since buying my D a few mos ago, gratitude for all the help and info- thanks..

But monopolies rub me the wrong way, but I guess when you have little to no competition- why not swing for the fences right?

Good luck then, but I'm sure you don't need it..

[Delorean Industries]

We have no way of gauging the skills of each and every customer. The problem is a few can and everyone says they can. I spend more time sorting out "I thought I could but now it is a nightmare" type situations. I will always help owners but more than often it is a bad situation.

Yes the situation is to our advantage. The market is not flooded with vendors like everything else out there. Plus our only competition has no desire to innovate. I take the approach of offering a much broader spectrum.

[ZX-14]

Well it's good that you will be raising the bar- someone has to put 30+% drive train loss excuse to rest.


And from what we( I) have seen from the PRV motor (pulled appart and measured at the machine shop) it's not pretty, but it's not bad either ;)

[Nicholas R]

For what it's worth, I too am on LS1 tech and comparing the two forums is apples to cucumbers. The LS1 has 15 years of cars using the engine with every possible swap, upgrade, modification etc. imaginable. The numbers are huge, and the engine base is still being manufactured. In addition, it is backed by 100 years of Chevy engine technology.

I cannot drive down the road without seeing an F-body, Corvette, or GTO; yet I've never run into another DeLorean while driving my car!

This is a community where ~9000 cars were made 30 years ago over 3 years. I would be surprised if even 1000 cars have been represented by owners in the history of DMCTalk.org and .com.

There are, what, maybe 6,000 Deloreans on the road/being restored? There's a reason why there aren't dozens of vendors like on LS1 tech, (which is heavily advertised by and paid for by the vendors there). There aren't the numbers, and it's not a high performing vehicle. When I did my LS1 swap, I bought almost every part I needed from JEGs. I'd be surprised if JEGs sold even one DeLorean specific part. Not to mention, the vendors that post here are giving free, and often very extensive advise. On LS1 Tech, I've never had a vendor give me advise; just try to sell me stuff.

Not to insult any vendors, but if Josh is operating a monopoly, it is only because he is stepping up to do work and research that no other vendor has ever done. That being said, Josh is therefore the only person to have ever worked with the system's he's developing. It's not like when Edelbrock develops a new cam for an engine that thousands and thousands have worked on. It's all new. I can see why he would be reluctant to have other's do the work. If someone screws up their Edelbrock cam install, it doesn't hurt Edelbrocks reputation because thousands of others have had success installing their cams. If someone else tries to do his work and screws it up, it doesn't matter if it's their fault, it still reflects very poorly on Josh. Josh works one on one with customers; no distributors, no shops, just him. For one, it's not worth the risk, and two, Josh wants to ensure he's providing exactly what he promises.

Personally, I'm not a fan of LS1 Tech. Yea I'm on there for help, and I check out the projects, but it's too big. I love how tight this community is. To actually meet many of the forum members in person is something that will never happen on LS1 Tech. Plus, in my opinion, DMCTalk keeps drama under control a lot better than some of the big forums.

I hope you dont feel like I'm attacking you or anything, this is just my thoughts. Since you mentioned LS1 Tech specificially I wanted to give my two cents.

By the way, do you have a vehicle with an LS1? If so what is it?! :D

[ZX-14]

No offense taken. The Delorean needs a little more power, I was just going about it the way I would with any new project, as I have done a few. I was using LS1 Tech as an example.

There are 2 D's in my area I have ran into while driving mine. One decided to start driving his more often I guess, maybe becuase he see's mine driving around every day.

Lucky for me, there is a few guys doing R&D right where I live.

I do love this car, can't stop driving it.

[Nicholas R]

No offense taken. The Delorean needs a little more power, I was just going about it the way I would with any new project, as I have done a few. I was using LS1 Tech as an example.

There are 2 D's in my area I have ran into while driving mine. One decided to start driving his more often I guess, maybe becuase he see's mine driving around every day.

Lucky for me, there is a few guys doing R&D right where I live.

I do love this car, can't stop driving it.

That I will definitely agree with you on! :biggrin: :thumbup:

[louielouie2000]

This is just my 2 cents, but when I get a Delorean the only major thing I would do to the engine is an exhaust kit. It's interesting to see the different things people do sometimes. I'm happy with the stock motor though. Unless you are talking about the 2JZ Delorean, the LS-Delorean, or the Lotus V8 Delorean, they are not really meant for going fast.

I definitely agree with you that DeLoreans are really more grand touring, or even personal luxury cars. But the reality is, once the newness of owning one begins to fade (the feeling you're driving a truly special piece of history never really goes away), you realize the car truly does NEED more power. Especially for urban driving, the DeLorean's lack of pick up can be frustrating & even dangerous. Cut & thrust city driving is quite tricky with 130 hp & super tall gearing, and merging up freeway entrance ramps you really have to wind the crap out of the PRV just to not get run down (even then, you'll still have 4 cylinder Camrys riding your bumper). Especially once you consider even average family sedans have 300 hp engines these days, the DeLorean's lack of grunt is a pretty serious issue. If you live in a rural area, the DeLorean's lack of power won't be as pronounced. Roads aren't as congested, and folks don't accelerate as hard. You'll still be wishing for some more power, though.


The market is not flooded with vendors like everything else out there. Plus our only competition has no desire to innovate. I take the approach of offering a much broader spectrum.

For as few cars as were made over a short period 30 years ago, there is a surprising amount of support for the DeLoreans, and it gets better every year as each DeLorean franchise keeps expanding & new service providers keep popping up. However, I know you're referencing the lack of aftermarket performance providers, which I also might disagree with you to some degree. Back in the 80s there was a choice of 2 aftermarket turbo kits. When DMC Houston introduced their Stage 2 engines a dozen odd years ago, that was an impressive step forward. Even though the cars don't put down the hp numbers people expected, everyone who's driven their Stage 3 cars says they're a hoot. It sounds like DMC Houston has also done a great thing by modernizing the DeLorean underbodys to weigh less and be stiffer. Things like the strut bars, poly bushings, anti roll bars, beefed up LCA's, etc also make a big difference in the way the cars handle & perform. The only thing really missing from our community is someone who 1) can thoroughly reengineer the PRV 2) offer some sort of turn key, professional-appearing, drop-in engine swap. Sounds like you might be the one leading the first charge, but it'd still be nice to have someone make the second happen.

[sdg3205]

I've been following this tread pretty closely but one thing I was wondering that I've not seen posted is whether Josh's new PRV option will maintain the original look of the PRV?

Don't know if that's something you could answer at this time josh, and I'd completely understand.

Do I think the car needs more power? Yup. Am I willing to compromise originality? Yes, but only if I can't see it, like shocks, speakers, relays, cams etc.

Despite its lack of power I'm one of the minority who likes the look of the PRV in the back!

[louielouie2000]

I've been following this tread pretty closely but one thing I was wondering that I've not seen posted is whether Josh's new PRV option will maintain the original look of the PRV?

Don't know if that's something you could answer at this time josh, and I'd completely understand.

Do I think the car needs more power? Yup. Am I willing to compromise originality? Yes, but only if I can't see it, like shocks, speakers, relays, cams etc.

Despite its lack of power I'm one of the minority who likes the look of the PRV in the back!

I agree with you 100%. If I still owned a DeLorean I'd be pretty reticent to even install one of DMC Houston's Stage 3 engines due to the fact the stock PRV airbox with the big DMC sticker has to be jettisoned. I'm picky to the point where I don't even know if I'd put a Stage 1/Spec 1 exhaust on a DeLorean, either... you can really see the headers & cats hanging down below the back bumper. Doesn't look too professional, IMO... makes the DeLorean look kit carish.

Anyway, I know DPI's current EFI equipped 2.8 PRV's have the option of retaining the stock airbox & such; I hope Josh keeps this feature with future engine upgrades. I even like Bill Robertson's carb converted cars because Bill makes a black air filter cover with the classic DMC sticker which has been updated to reflect the car's carburetion & rerouted vacuum lines. And for God's sake, let's not let this thread degrade into another carb vs EFI vs K-Jet discussion, PLEASE!!
:mallet:

[Delorean Industries]

I've been following this tread pretty closely but one thing I was wondering that I've not seen posted is whether Josh's new PRV option will maintain the original look of the PRV?

Don't know if that's something you could answer at this time josh, and I'd completely understand.

Do I think the car needs more power? Yup. Am I willing to compromise originality? Yes, but only if I can't see it, like shocks, speakers, relays, cams etc.

Despite its lack of power I'm one of the minority who likes the look of the PRV in the back!

We have cast our own manifolds with a factory appearance in mind.

[SamHill]

We have cast our own manifolds with a factory appearance in mind.

Wait, you've created your own molds for casting manifolds?

[Delorean Industries]

Wait, you've created your own molds for casting manifolds?

Yep. Didn't have a choice as the design needed to be improved.

[thirdmanj]

Yep. Didn't have a choice as the design needed to be improved.

Ok, now you sound like Bill... ;)

[SamHill]

Yep. Didn't have a choice as the design needed to be improved.

Well that sounds like a substantial investment. That subject itself would make an interesting thread.

[Delorean Industries]

Well that sounds like a substantial investment. That subject itself would make an interesting thread.

I would rather not put an exact figure on what is invested into this work. I will say it has exceeded six figures at this point. I see it as a learning experience that I can apply else where in the future.

[DMCVegas]

The DeLorean feels like a significantly down tuned Esprit in every aspect; the most noticeable being the power.

Lotus seems to have a very nasty history of de-tuning vehicles that they work on for other vendors if they begin to become a threat to them from what I've read over the years. The two biggest production modifications that seem to have harmed the DMC-12 most of all IMO being the elongated springs that jacked the front suspension up, and the deletion of the rear panel that had covered up the muffler and reduced drag.

http://www.pjgrady.co.uk/General/Images/P222.jpg

Of the owners I've talked to over the years that get high 20's to 30's for MPG when driving, almost all of them had some sort of rear ground effects kit that served the same purpose.




toby isn't selling his own sway bars because he can't find someone who can produce them. the rear bar which brokes the frames is the Addco one..

anyway, Josh is producing a really nice rear bar, with a design never seen before in the D.

A few years ago when I was in the area, I stopped by Bauerle Automotive and spoke with Dave. I don't know anything about the Addco bar damaging the chassis, but Dave did warn that he'd seen quite a few cars that had their Trailing Arms damaged by it. The Addco kit requires you to drill holes into the middle of the Arms, and since the flat bottom and top were never intended to be subjected to perpendicular force, the arms will bend.

He did say that a couple of cars back in the 80's came into his shop with some unique sway bars that were totally unlike the Addco. These had flanges that allowed the bar to mount directly to the Hub Carriers when the Trailing Arms connect. I tried following up on these, but the one guy who briefly popped up on the DML claiming to be the original vendor never responded to me and disappeared. I do want to go back and get some of Dave's TAB Brackets though...

The Addco bar also bolted under the K-member for the engine, and would reduce clearance by a couple of inches. Now with some bolts hanging down it's not too difficult to imagine that those bolts could easily catch on speed bumps, rocks, and other road debris and cause an issue with catching and bending the engine cradle/frame very badly. I believe that Toby had said his design was supposed to go through the tunnel in the cradle in order to preserve ground clearance...

[dmc6960]

Of the owners I've talked to over the years that get high 20's to 30's for MPG when driving, almost all of them had some sort of rear ground effects kit that served the same purpose.

I get 30+ mpg without ground effects but that rear cover sure looks nice. My only concern could be if it "scoops" up air that would otherwise exit in the larger opening thus causing more drag. If thats not an issue, who's going to reproduce that?

[Kenny_Z]

That rear cover is interesting. I guess that's why the rear of the D always looked unfinished to me. As cool as the cover is I think I prefer my Deloreans without it. Though if someone was envisioning an 84 I'd really suggest that as a piece to add.

[DeloreanJoshQ]

Lotus seems to have a very nasty history of de-tuning vehicles that they work on for other vendors if they begin to become a threat to them from what I've read over the years. The two biggest production modifications that seem to have harmed the DMC-12 most of all IMO being the elongated springs that jacked the front suspension up, and the deletion of the rear panel that had covered up the muffler and reduced drag.

http://www.pjgrady.co.uk/General/Images/P222.jpg

Of the owners I've talked to over the years that get high 20's to 30's for MPG when driving, almost all of them had some sort of rear ground effects kit that served the same purpose.


I really like that rear lower cover. I don't care for the ones that are sold with all of the vents cut into them. This one looks more form fitting.

Who is willing to make one of these? I would buy it! It looks like it would be one piece that would replace both rear lower plastic ground effect pieces and fit flush with the rear bumper?

[Nicholas R]

There was an owner at DCS that had a panel exactly like what is pictured here^. I know because I had to judge the car. I asked the owner what the story was on it and he didn't know too much, just that he bought the car with it already on. He said he liked the uniqueness of it, however it was a pain since it blocked a lot of access. For instance, he said he had to remove it for oil changes.

Also, I do not believe Dave Bauerle is still making his custom trailing arm brackets. If he were I'm pretty sure every Ohio owner would be buying them. Josh can you comment on this? Last I heard he wasn't making them.

[sdg3205]

I recall something on these in old DeLorean World magazines. Could have been an Ed Bernstein thing!

[BABIS]

I believe that Toby had said his design was supposed to go through the tunnel in the cradle in order to preserve ground clearance...

yes Toby's one goes through the cradle tunnel, and it does not require any drill to install..

this is a picture from the only one installed (I guess), you can see the mounting inside the tunnel which use existing bolts
15337

and just for information, Toby's bar connect the two hubs of the rear wheels.

I saw that the bar made from Josh connect the two lower arms of the rear suspension, but I don't the difference between the two type. Josh's one has also a really cool "sub-frame" that goes under the rear Y of the frame..

anyhow, we will never see Toby's bar for sale. The USA are too small to find someone who makes you a couple of metal pieces....

[dustybarn]

I definitely agree with you that DeLoreans are really more grand touring, or even personal luxury cars. But the reality is, once the newness of owning one begins to fade (the feeling you're driving a truly special piece of history never really goes away), you realize the car truly does NEED more power. Especially for urban driving, the DeLorean's lack of pick up can be frustrating & even dangerous. Cut & thrust city driving is quite tricky with 130 hp & super tall gearing, and merging up freeway entrance ramps you really have to wind the crap out of the PRV just to not get run down (even then, you'll still have 4 cylinder Camrys riding your bumper).

I'll agree that the tall gearing is a problem. I read someplace that the UN1/369 gearbox can also be had with 3.89 and 4.11 final drive ratios. Has anybody tried either one in a D?

[delornut]

[QUOTE=DMCVegas;83669]Lotus seems to have a very nasty history of de-tuning vehicles that they work on for other vendors if they begin to become a threat to them from what I've read over the years. The two biggest production modifications that seem to have harmed the DMC-12 most of all IMO being the elongated springs that jacked the front suspension up, and the deletion of the rear panel that had covered up the muffler and reduced drag.

http://www.pjgrady.co.uk/General/Images/P222.jpg

Of the owners I've talked to over the years that get high 20's to 30's for MPG when driving, almost all of them had some sort of rear ground effects kit that served the same purpose.




Back in about 1985 Ben Byrd of the old Scentific Automotive offerd these for a short time and I seem to remember him discontinuing them because of heat build up in the engine compartment.

Bruce Benson

[DMCVegas]

[QUOTE=DMCVegas;83669]Back in about 1985 Ben Byrd of the old Scentific Automotive offerd these for a short time and I seem to remember him discontinuing them because of heat build up in the engine compartment.

Bruce Benson

I can certainly understand that it would increase engine compartment temperatures since it's keeping all that air from being scooped up. But if it's not being scooped up, then it's not creating drag, and that is exactly what I'm looking for.

I've also seen at least one site in the past in passing about Lotus Esprits warning that if the factory panel or a diffuser isn't installed, that gas milage will suffer as well. Admittedly though while I like Lotus, I've not nearly studied then as much as I have De Lorean.




Also, I do not believe Dave Bauerle is still making his custom trailing arm brackets. If he were I'm pretty sure every Ohio owner would be buying them. Josh can you comment on this? Last I heard he wasn't making them.

That's too bad. I remember when I stopped by the shop, Dave said he had the brackets packed away somewhere, but that he also hadn't had anyone request them in quite some time.

[Nicholas R]

I'll agree that the tall gearing is a problem. I read someplace that the UN1/369 gearbox can also be had with 3.89 and 4.11 final drive ratios. Has anybody tried either one in a D?

Thats correct. You just have to replace the ring gear on the differential and the pinion gear on the output shaft. The tricky part would just be locating one. I would recommend the GT40 replica forum http://gt40s.com

I'm a member there and there is a TON of really good information about our transmission.

Also, I know the documentation says that the DeLorean has a 3.44 final ratio. I dont know about anyone else, but when I had my transmission apart, I counted the teeth on both the ring gear and the pinion gear.

I had 32 on the ring gear, and 9 on the pinion. 32/9=3.55:1. Just some food for thought.

[DMCMW Dave]

Thats correct. You just have to replace the ring gear on the differential and the pinion gear on the output shaft. .

One problem is that the pinion gear IS the output shaft. So it's a pretty substantial piece.

[opethmike]

One problem is that the pinion gear IS the output shaft. So it's a pretty substantial piece.

I had considered getting 4:10 gears. After reading this, I am no longer considering it.

[Delorean Industries]

You do not want a 4:10 in a Delorean.

[opethmike]

You do not want a 4:10 in a Delorean.

How come?

[Cory W]

I changed the rear differential in my '82 Supra (3.55) with one from an '83 (4.10). No other changes were made.

I had the joy of lower top speed, higher revs at highway (more drone, fuel consumption), and how awkward/useless it made the existing gear ratios (giving it a negligible increase in off the line performance...the entire point of more aggressive gearing IMO).

[ZX-14]

A 2800 lb car with a 3.44 or 3.55 axle ratio is just fine.

It's the lack of HP and TQ thats the problem. The trans ratio is long for the auto, but you are screwed with no overdrive.

I turn almost 3 k rpm at 70 mph and there is only 2500 more RPM of increased power.

Whoever does a gear change to a 4.10 in an auto will surely regret it.

[Nicholas R]

One problem is that the pinion gear IS the output shaft. So it's a pretty substantial piece.

I actually wondered about that. I couldn't get a good reading on whether or not it was cut from the same piece as the shaft when perusing the GT40 forum. I didn't take a close enough look at mine when I had it apart so all I have is the pics:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-qSLUI8BhKAM/To9ubnxwWUI/AAAAAAAAAEQ/dVG7w-cE5jY/s1600/DSC_0248+%255B1600x1200%255D.JPG

Also I agree, I believe a 4.11:1 would be way too high in the DeLorean. You'd be reving pretty high just to drive the speed limit on the highway. Especially if you had an automatic :ohcrap:

[DMC5180]

There was an owner at DCS that had a panel exactly like what is pictured here^. I know because I had to judge the car. I asked the owner what the story was on it and he didn't know too much, just that he bought the car with it already on. He said he liked the uniqueness of it, however it was a pain since it blocked a lot of access. For instance, he said he had to remove it for oil changes.


Brandon Moody (PO) and Trent Bailey are the guys that created and installed the lower panel on the car back in 2003. It is a thin Aluminum panel finished in trim black. Brandon sold the car a couple years later.

[Delorean Industries]

Have been a little busy and unable to update on this topic. Pictured is the Mark VII head in our development program that we are sticking with. We have successfully developed a 79.5% gain over the stock cylinder head. The extent of work required was major including new seats, under/over sized valves and extensive changes to the port configuration over all.

We are now also on our final camshaft as well. We are planning on running the final configuration with our sequential fuel injection system for a minimum of 100 hours on the engine dyno. The complete system will be available after that for owners.

[Nicholas R]

Have been a little busy and unable to update on this topic. Pictured is the Mark VII head in our development program that we are sticking with. We have successfully developed a 79.5% gain over the stock cylinder head. The extent of work required was major including new seats, under/over sized valves and extensive changes to the port configuration over all.

We are now also on our final camshaft as well. We are planning on running the final configuration with our sequential fuel injection system for a minimum of 100 hours on the engine dyno. The complete system will be available after that for owners.

Very nice!

Are you also increasing the valve lift or just increasing valve diameter? Any more dwell? Are you using stronger valve springs?

This stuff looks awesome man! :thumbup:

[NightFlyer]

Hey Josh,

The new Mark VII head looks great and a near 80% increase in flow rate is very impressive! Will these work on both stock 2.85L and 3.0L configurations?

How would you compare the new Mark VII head to the last version of the 24V Peugeot/Citroen head? Did Venturi alter the 24V head at all in the PRV they built for use in the 400GT, and if so, how does the Mark VII compare to that head?

I'm curious as I'm looking at having a performance PRV built for my D in the near future, with a budget of round $35K. I was envisioning something close to the performance level of the Venturi 400GT with a 'bullet proof' reliability requiring only ordinary/regular maintenance, thus I was thinking about going with a fully mapped EFI 3.0L 24V Inter-cooled Twin Turbo with forged performance internals. Also, I'm curious as to what transmission the Venturi 400GT was using given that they were claiming output of 402 bhp, and whether or not the stock D 5 speed is capable of being modded to handle the extra power and torque without breaking or what the cost/availability is of whatever the Venturi was using?

Is something like this even feasible with the budget I'd be working with? Is this a project that you would be interested in taking on at my stated budget? Or would you suggest something different that would offer a better 'bang' for my buck? I'm fully open to all suggestions.

Thanks in advance for your reply, as well as all of the great performance work you've been doing thus far!

[Delorean Industries]

Send us an email to [email protected] and we can start discuss the different build options. Depending on exactly what you want we can either go NA or turbo in this case.

[sdg3205]

Josh,

Will your upgrade maintain stock look?

[Delorean Industries]

Josh,

Will your upgrade maintain stock look?

Aside from the addition of fuel rails and the air cleaner adapter yes. The configuration even allows for the use of a stock air box, or our custom stainless units. Boots arrive?

[DMC5180]

We have successfully developed a 79.5% gain over the stock cylinder head.

79.5% gain in what? Efficiency, Flow rate, or HP.

[Nicholas R]

79.5% gain in what? Efficiency, Flow rate, or HP.

My assumption was flow.

[NightFlyer]

My assumption was flow.

That was my first thought as well, however, Josh previously posted this over on another thread:

"We have succesfully pushed the PRV head from 103 cfm to over 250."

Unless Josh was talking about a different head in his previous post, the Mark VII head should represent a 143% increase in flow rate vs stock. That's why I was curious as to how it compares to a ported/polished Peugeot/Citroen 24V head and/or the Venturi head (if Venturi made any changes to the P/C 24V head before they adopted it into the 400GT - of which I'm completely unsure of).

@Josh - Sorry I haven't gotten in touch with you via email yet. I'm holding off doing so until I get my plans/budget cleared with the Mrs, as I don't want to waste any of your time. I'm merely trying to explore the available options at this time, and their potential costs. However, I am quite serious about doing something in the near future, but am also willing to wait a couple years if something really great is on the horizon!

[Delorean Industries]

The figures are in regards to airflow.

On the Intake side we have increased from 103 to 250 cfm.

Over all air flow increase across the entire head is 79.5%
We are running a compression ratio of 11.3 to 1

The package requires the use of our proprietary fully independent engine management system. The best way to describe the need in regards to ditching K jet is without the upgrade it would be like filling a pool with a garden hose.

If the product we are preparing to release isn't a game changer I'm not sure what is. Once the R&D has concluded after our final work through on endurance testing I will post our "advertised" performance numbers with pride.
We work with a VERY precision engine dyno configuration. To say the least the numbers we will advertise will be much higher on other dyno platforms.

[Delorean Industries]

That was my first thought as well, however, Josh previously posted this over on another thread:

"We have succesfully pushed the PRV head from 103 cfm to over 250."

Unless Josh was talking about a different head in his previous post, the Mark VII head should represent a 143% increase in flow rate vs stock. That's why I was curious as to how it compares to a ported/polished Peugeot/Citroen 24V head and/or the Venturi head (if Venturi made any changes to the P/C 24V head before they adopted it into the 400GT - of which I'm completely unsure of).

@Josh - Sorry I haven't gotten in touch with you via email yet. I'm holding off doing so until I get my plans/budget cleared with the Mrs, as I don't want to waste any of your time. I'm merely trying to explore the available options at this time, and their potential costs. However, I am quite serious about doing something in the near future, but am also willing to wait a couple years if something really great is on the horizon!

Looking forward to it. The first engine packages for those who have purchased will be installed by mid June. This project is nearing an official completion.

[Silverbullet]

So...to be blunt.... what kind of HP are we talking about?

[Delorean Industries]

So...to be blunt.... what kind of HP are we talking about?

The base package will be rated at 200 whp.

[vwdmc16]

Wow, essentially double the original output.

[Silverbullet]

The base package will be rated at 200 whp.

Now that is sweet!...

[Henrik]

The base package will be rated at 200 whp.

When will you update your website....?

[louielouie2000]

So what happened to posting dyno numbers for Spec II cars?

And what happened to the new engine upgrade that was supposed to be out 4 months ago?

I'm not being a jerk, I'm just genuinely curious... as I'm sure the majority of the DeLorean community is as well. :thumbup: