HELP! Broke off Bolt that holds Negative Battery cable

[1batt4u]

Hi all,

I broke off the bolt that holds the stock negative cable on the frame. Been fighting for days now, wasting around 2-3 hours with no results each time!

There is a jam nut behind it. I was told some cars had them some didn't.

I tried removing the bolt behind the jam nut, but no room to come out.

I really need help with this!! How in the world do I remove the broken bolt???? Rear of car is on ramps.

Any ideas???

[dmc6960]

So you wrenched on the bolt without removing the jamb nut, thus breaking off the head of the bolt?

Now your trying to unscrew the jam nut, but the bolt shank is unthreading with it leaving no room for removal?

Just trying to visualize and know what is moving and what is not.

[1batt4u]

Yes, exactly!!

I thought I was holding onto the jam nut when removing the bolt, but snapped out.

What can I do?? No room at all to do anything.

[David T]

One option might be to abandon that bolt and find another place to attach the ground cable. If you can't get the piece of the bolt out you might be able to get a right angle drill with a stubby bit and drill it out. You can try sawing the jamb nut or chiseling it. Might not be worth the bother.
David Teitelbaum

[1batt4u]

One option might be to abandon that bolt and find another place to attach the ground cable. If you can't get the piece of the bolt out you might be able to get a right angle drill with a stubby bit and drill it out. You can try sawing the jamb nut or chiseling it. Might not be worth the bother.
David Teitelbaum

Will it be safe to drive around with it like that?

[stevedmc]

Will it be safe to drive around with it like that?

Only if you don't mind your trailing arm falling off (that bolt holds the trailing arm bracket).

[dmc6960]

Will it be safe to drive around with it like that?

No! That is one of two bolts holding on your trailing arm bushings. With or without a battery ground, you need it.

FYI, you dont "hold" jamb nuts when removing bolts. You need to loosen/remove them first.

If the bolt shank is indeed turning freely right now, you have an option. Try to get as much pressure on it as possible to STOP it from turning in the frame, while trying to back out the jamb nut. If your successful at this you should be able to work the jamb nut off, then just unthread the bolt shank from the frame.

[1batt4u]

No! That is one of two bolts holding on your trailing arm bushings. With or without a battery ground, you need it.

FYI, you dont "hold" jamb nuts when removing bolts. You need to loosen/remove them first.

If the bolt shank is indeed turning freely right now, you have an option. Try to get as much pressure on it as possible to STOP it from turning in the frame, while trying to back out the jamb nut. If your successful at this you should be able to work the jamb nut off, then just unthread the bolt shank from the frame.

I tried every size wrench on the jam nut, but didn't seem as if they were fitting, weird. So I used a vise grip, wish I knew I had to loosen it. What size wrench is for the jam nut? The nut behind the jam nut, I used a 14mm wrench if I remember correctly.

So far I only turned the nut behind the jam nut, it turned all the way till it touched the frame and wont go any more, the bolt doesn't turn so far. I guess once I start turning the jam nut it will?

The rear of car is on ramps, is it dangerous working under it with the broken bolt?

[dmc6960]

Your confused with terms. The jamb nut is the nut all the way in the back. Then there is a welded nut which is welded and epoxied on the frame. Then there is the bolt.

The welded nut is not to get wrenched on. The reason no wrenches fit are because of the epoxy coating.

So now what your describing is the actual jamb nut is turning on the bolt shank, but the bolt shank isn't turning. That may make this problem more difficult to deal with.

[Ron]

Billy,
If I'm following you correctly now, your best bet is to cut out the old and use a new bolt and LOCK nut, with backer.

Can you post a pic to be sure everyone in on the same page?

==============



Only if you don't mind your trailing arm falling off (that bolt holds the trailing arm bracket).

Now I know you are sharing your password! :deviltail:

[deloumis]

Not really dangerous. The trailing arm being unbolted will not really cause the frame to come crashing down. It is more for alignment. Do not "abandon" the bolt, no it is not safe. I had the exact same problem. I ended up getting a chisel and breaking off the bolt along with welded nut. Took me about 2 minutes to do. I have not reinstalled but I will just put a bolt with nut there in place of the welded nut.

EDIT: just to be clear, I meant it is not dangerous to work under the car with the broken bolt, but it is to drive without the bolt in place.

[LEVY]

That is not an option!

Do whatever it takes to remove and replace that bolt.


One option might be to abandon that bolt and find another place to attach the ground cable. If you can't get the piece of the bolt out you might be able to get a right angle drill with a stubby bit and drill it out. You can try sawing the jamb nut or chiseling it. Might not be worth the bother.David Teitelbaum

Remember, he is never wrong!

Let's wait for his excuse..........

LEVY

[deloumis]

Billy, can you post a pic to be sure everyone in on the same page?


==============

I just went through the exact same problem a couple weeks ago. What first looked to be a difficult problem turned into a 5 minute chisel job. What I don't understand is why David T would give advice to abandon the bolt :confused0:

[1batt4u]

Your confused with terms. The jamb nut is the nut all the way in the back. Then there is a welded nut which is welded and epoxied on the frame. Then there is the bolt.

The welded nut is not to get wrenched on. The reason no wrenches fit are because of the epoxy coating.

So now what your describing is the actual jamb nut is turning on the bolt shank, but the bolt shank isn't turning. That may make this problem more difficult to deal with.

Ok, that explains everything! So that nut is welded to the frame. So the jam nut is the one I moved back! Makes things easier for me, because it is more understandable to me. I'll figure something out!! If you have any ideas please let me know!

Thank you, I appreciate it!!

As far as working under it with rear wheel on ramp, it is dangerous, especially once I have the broken bolt removed?

[1batt4u]

Ok, read everyone else's post onc eI was replying!!

Thank you guys, so it is not dangerous to work under it.

[DMCMW Dave]

This is one case where you do hold the jam nut while you back the screw out as there is not room to get the nut all the way off.

1 - Loosen the jam nut about a turn.
2- Hold the jam nut with a 13mm open end wrench
3- Remove the bolt. About 1/2 way out the jam nut will fall off.

Assembly is the reverse, i.e. start the bolt until about 3 threads are through the weld nut. Then start the jam nut but do not tighten it. Tighten the bolt. Now tighten the jam nut against the weld nut.

[1batt4u]

This is one case where you do hold the jam nut while you back the screw out as there is not room to get the nut all the way off.

1 - Loosen the jam nut about a turn.
2- Hold the jam nut with a 13mm open end wrench
3- Remove the bolt. About 1/2 way out the jam nut will fall off.

Assembly is the reverse, i.e. start the bolt until about 3 threads are through the weld nut. Then start the jam nut but do not tighten it. Tighten the bolt. Now tighten the jam nut against the weld nut.

Dave, my bolt snapped, so I can not remove it. Trying to figure how to get it out

[DMCMW Dave]

Dave, my bolt snapped, so I can not remove it. Trying to figure how to get it out

This is actually one place where an EZ out will work. If you can get it into the bolt from the outside, (right angle drill) get an ez out into it and then you can hold it to back the nut off.

NEVER use an EZ out where the bolt is actually stuck.

[Mark D]

Are the threads of the bolt free to turn in the welded on frame nut? or is it siezed in there?

If the broken bolt is indeed stuck and unable to turn you'll want to try and loosen it before you cut the shaft shorter so you're able to remove the bolt between the two sections of frame

One trick is to thread on a second thin M8 nut on the end of the stuck bolt and turn it tight to lock it to the existing loose jamb nut. Then turn both nuts at the same time to free the stuck bolt from the frame.
http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=14299&d=1350939622



Once the bolt shaft is free to turn you can remove the second (orange) nut you installed, then trim the end of the bolt shorter with a dremel. Once you cut the bolt short enough it will fit through the two sections of frame.
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.
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If you're unable to get a second nut on there and use it to free the stuck bolt then you'll have to try your luck with vice grips to break it loose. Then you can proceed with cutting the bolt shorter so it can be removed through the two frame sections.

If that bolt is really stuck in the frame you may end up having to drill it out or go with the easy out like Dave is suggesting There are 90 deg short profile drills (air powered or electric) that you can buy from harbor freight that should fit in there.

Good luck.

[1batt4u]

Thanks for the info Mark!! I already had in mind to add a second nut and try that method. I've done it before couple times, works great. The whole confusion here was because I was mixed up. I thought the jam nut was the welded nut, and was fighting to remove the the welded nut. So gonna try that when I can.

Thanks again everyone, I really appreciate it!!!

[David T]

I should not have said to "abandon" that bolt. More accurately I should have said to give up on trying to save it and just chisel it and the welded nut out. You MUST have the ground strap attached to the frame and you must have both bolts in the bushing.
David Teitelbaum

[stevedmc]

Actually the negative battery cable would work just as well attached to the engine (better in fact as far as the starter motor and alternator are concerned).

[LEVY]

I should not have said to "abandon" that bolt. More accurately I should have said to give up on trying to save it and just chisel it and the welded nut out. You MUST have the ground strap attached to the frame and you must have both bolts in the bushing.
David Teitelbaum

Billy was not trying to save the bolt, that bolt was already broke.

I believe he already have his answer.

Good luck!

LEVY

[stevedmc]

I bet if that had happened to Bill Robertson he would just chuck up a cutoff wheel in his angle grinder, cut off either the lock nut or however much bolt shank could be exposed, touch up any epoxy that might get damaged on the weld nut with brush on Rustoluem smoke gray enamel, then proclaim the operation a success.

[DMCMW Dave]

I bet if that had happened to Bill Robertson he would just chuck up a cutoff wheel in his angle grinder, .

Not without removing the transmission first.

[deloumis]

Not without removing the transmission first.

Not sure how important this statement will be, but I probably should have mentioned that my frame is "bare". No transmission, body, trailing arm, or anything else to get in the way. But if I remember correctly, it still should not be too much of an issue having the car completely assembled.. It *may* make some difference which is why I add to my experience this statement.

[stevedmc]

Transmission is on the other side of the frame member.

Trailing arm might need to come off however.

[1batt4u]

What size bolts are these? M8 x ?? how long, 20mm?

[Mark D]

The TAB bushing mounting bolts are M8 x 1.25 x 30mm long.

Make sure you replace them with 10.9 grade, not 8.8 or stainless bolts. If you're replacing washers and nuts make sure those are also high strength. The source I used to replace some of my hardware when I did a suspension rebuild was boltdepot.com since they allow you purchase as few as 1 of each bolt. Shipping is around 10 bucks each time you order so make a list of other bolts you might want to replace and order all at once. My local hardware store did not have 10.9 metric bolts, otherwise I would have probably gotten them there... the prices at boltdepot are much cheaper anyway though.

http://www.boltdepot.com/Metric_tap_bolts_Zinc_plated_class_10.9_steel_8mm_ x_1.25mm.aspx

[1batt4u]

Cool! Thank you!!

[1batt4u]

I gonna place an order on boltdepot.com for these bolts as well as some other.

Question is, I was told that some cars do have nuts on the other side of the bolts, like my car, as some cars don't have. I checked here, http://store.delorean.com/c-354-5-3-0-rear-suspension.aspx does not show anything on nuts being used, but does show lock washers #31 along with the flat washers #38.

Instead of killing my selling trying to put the nuts back on the backside would it be much easier to use lock washers as the webpage shows??

[Mark D]

I would personally go with nuts on the end of each bolt rather than split lock washers under the bolt head.

I've read frequently that lock washer's don't really do a whole hell of a lot in terms of preventing or retaining a loose bolt. A nut on the end of the bolt (especially a nyloc nut) will do much better at making sure that bolt stays put.

Dave at DMCMW posted here
http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?5519-HELP!-Broke-off-Bolt-that-holds-Negative-Battery-cable&p=78671&viewfull=1#post78671

explaining how to properly loosen or tighten the nut on the end of the bolt.

[1batt4u]

Ok, it is March 2nd today. Finally went out and tried to mess around with this!! No luck at all!

I feel it is impossible. I am laying flat on the ground, tight space to work with. Wrench barely fits to screw/unscrew nut. I managed to put a thin nut, tightened it against the other nut. Tried unscrewing them together to get the broken bolt out. They were unscrewing, but noticed the broken screw was nut turning at all.

Not sure if they were unscrewing off the bolt, or the bolt is ready to snap.

I NEED HELP!!!!!!!

Don't know what else to do!!

Like I said, really tight for me!! I don't think I can use drills under there, chisels, dremel tools to cut.

Any advice or anything????

[1batt4u]

Anyone?

[Mark D]

Are you sure the thin nut you threaded on is locked to the other nut on the bolt? If they aren't tight together then they'll spin and not turn the bolt.

If you know the nuts are locked and you think you're twisting the bolt shaft instead of loosening it from the frame try applying some heat to the bolt and soaking it with some penetrating oil.

Worst case if you twist off the end of the bolt shaft and you have a little chunk left in the frame you'll just have to drill it out working from the outside of the frame. There should be enough room to get a drill in there, or a small drill bit in a dremel. If it comes to this you'll need to drill a hole as close to the center of the bolt as possible, then keep increasing your drill bit size until eventually the bolt will come loose and you'll be able to thread out the remaining bits of the bolt.

[1batt4u]

Are you sure the thin nut you threaded on is locked to the other nut on the bolt? If they aren't tight together then they'll spin and not turn the bolt.

If you know the nuts are locked and you think you're twisting the bolt shaft instead of loosening it from the frame try applying some heat to the bolt and soaking it with some penetrating oil.

Worst case if you twist off the end of the bolt shaft and you have a little chunk left in the frame you'll just have to drill it out working from the outside of the frame. There should be enough room to get a drill in there, or a small drill bit in a dremel. If it comes to this you'll need to drill a hole as close to the center of the bolt as possible, then keep increasing your drill bit size until eventually the bolt will come loose and you'll be able to thread out the remaining bits of the bolt.

Yes, I tightened the thin nut as much as I could with out breaking anything. I tried a couple times, but nothing. It is a killer working under there, especially using a wrench on those nuts! I can only do about 1/4 a turn on the nut each time. Takes forever!

I took out the thin nut, and backed out the stock nut all the way to the chassis.

I'll try drilling it out!

It really sucks, that's keeping me from completing my car!

Thank you!!

If anyone else has any ideas, please share!!

Thank you!

[EdR5150]

Do you have a ratcheting wrench with a flex head? if not, this will help, and your arms will thank you
http://www.ntxtools.com/Merchant/graphics/00000001/ttn-12901.gif

Did you get the other bolt out, and get the retaining plate and TAB off, so it's at least out of the way?

[David T]

If you got both nuts removed you have to be patient and just keep turning the bolt a little at a time. It will come out eventually. A whole lot less work then trying to chisel or drill.
David Teitelbaum

[1batt4u]

Do you have a ratcheting wrench with a flex head? if not, this will help, and your arms will thank you
http://www.ntxtools.com/Merchant/graphics/00000001/ttn-12901.gif

Did you get the other bolt out, and get the retaining plate and TAB off, so it's at least out of the way?

No I don't have a ratcheting wrench, but even if I did would not fit in there. It's a very tight space.

[1batt4u]

If you got both nuts removed you have to be patient and just keep turning the bolt a little at a time. It will come out eventually. A whole lot less work then trying to chisel or drill.
David Teitelbaum

The stock nut will not come out from the back, not enough space.

The head of the bolt is snapped off, so I can not turn anything.

[axh174]

Can you tell if the remaining thread of the broken bolt turns freely? Or is it siezed?

[1batt4u]

Can you tell if the remaining thread of the broken bolt turns freely? Or is it siezed?

It's definitely seized!! I tried everything!

I finally removed it!!

[DMC5180]

It's definitely seized!! I tried everything!

I finally removed it!!

Well, what was the final solution?

[1batt4u]

So I finally removed it!!

I tried everything possible!! Adding a thin nut, tightening it to the stock nut as much as I can so I can turn both in order to turn the broken bolt, but nothing!

I tried drilling, which was ridiculous!

I tried grabbing as much as I can with a wise grip wrench! Nothing! Didn't budge!

So I just grabbed my heavy duty chisel and heavy duty hammer, as deloumis recommended! I actually was hitting the bolt it self in the back to shorten it, half way. It actually ended up taking off the welded nut with broken bolt on it!

I finally took it off!! YIPPIE!!

I already have a brand new zinc plated 10.9 grade bolt, washer, and lock nut.

Question! Now that the welded nut is no longer there, do I just put in the new bolt with washer and lock nut in back, or should I put another nut, regular nut, in the back in place of the welded nut, and after that the lock nut??

Thank you!

[DMCMW Dave]

You need to remove the "!" key from your keyboard. :giggle:


Ideally you'd weld a nut back on so the next guy doesn't go nuts, but failing that put on two nuts, tighten the first one against the bolt and then the lock nut.

[1batt4u]

You need to remove the "!" key from your keyboard. :giggle:


Ideally you'd weld a nut back on so the next guy doesn't go nuts, but failing that put on two nuts, tighten the first one against the bolt and then the lock nut.

Ok cool!!

Thank you Dave!!

[1batt4u]

How much should I torque it to?

[kings1527]

How much should I torque it to?

I see trouble brewing here! :hihi2:

If it's the battery cable, just get it on there snug. You already have it double nutted (again) so you shouldn't have to worry too much. I just put on Hervey's double ground a couple weeks ago and that's what I did. Don't get too crazy with it; you don't want that thing to break again!

[Nicholas R]

How much should I torque it to?
I would say 20-23ftlbs if you torque it wet (w/antiseize), 23-25ftlbs if you torque it dry.

[1batt4u]

I would say 20-23ftlbs if you torque it wet (w/antiseize), 23-25ftlbs if you torque it dry.

Cool!

Thank you Nick!

[82DMC12]

Posting to this super-old thread only because I searched for it and referred to it while dealing with basically the same problem as OP. I had a bit different solution.

For me, I had the trailing arm off already, and I was trying to remove the support bracket so I could replace all that hardware in there during a suspension restoration. For me, I had a ratchet on the bolt head and found the nut towards the front of the car very hard to get a wrench onto (I already had the other two bolts/nuts on the driver side removed as well as the rear passenger side bolt and nut). For the other three bolts, I was able to remove the nut first, then turn out the screw from the outside. For this stubborn one, I figured I'd try using a socket on the bolt head and see how many turns I could get before the nut started to spin. Well it wasn't many and the bolt head snapped right off. I pulled the other T/A hardware out and was left with a nearly inaccessible nut and the remaining shank - both froze in the frame (which is threaded, by the way, and NOT a hollow tube). I tried many different types of wrenches - ratcheting, 6 point, 12 point, open end, stubby, even a crows foot and I couldn't get the nut to turn. I was, however, able to get a nut onto the shank sticking out but that wasn't helping. I decided to try to grab the shank with vice grips while trying to turn the nut, and that didn't work either. MAP gas, no help. Soaked in acetone+ATF...... Finally I was able to move the nut by putting a stubby 13mm box end through the hole from the T/A side, at an angle, then attach another wrench to the open end of the stubby to increase the leverage. The nut was now moving along with the shank. Unfortunately the shank was too long to unscrew out the transmission side because it hits the frame. Eventually I gave up and screwed the nut and shank back in, and very carefully cut the shank off with my angle grinder flush with the T/A mounting point, then that left me with a short enough piece to unscrew from the transmission side. Crisis averted.

This consumed an entire evening for me but it's one way to fix this same problem if you can get the trailing arm out of the way and increase the access. Hope it helps the next person!

[Henrik]

Well nice! Didn't expect a happy ending as I started reading. Glad it worked out.

[82DMC12]

I'm actually going to add another detail here for clarity - so future readers, you can thank me later ;-)

My car's trailing arm bracket was attached to the frame with a bolt long enough to screw through the threaded, welded-on nut on the inside of the frame AND it had a nyloc nut on the threads sticking out past that welded nut. The nyloc nut MUST come off first or else you WILL snap the bolt head off. Interesting to note that the parts manual does not show these additional nyloc nuts in the parts diagram. In addition, when I ordered new bolts from DMCMW, they sent bolts that are not long enough to add the mystery nyloc nuts, but assured me it wasn't really necessary as long as I have split washers on the bolt. So, I hope I never have to deal with this nightmare again. There is also a torque value for these bolts listed in the bulletins book.