Crank pulley nut dillemma...

[Morpheus]

I need some assistance from the DMCTalk Braintrust here...

Currently, 4363's motor is on a stand; the flywheel is off. The motor is stripped to the valley currently.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa5/morpheus34711/Daphne%20VIN%204363/07%20Engine%20Rebuild/e1d127d7.jpg

In order to go in and take the heads off, I need to obviously get the crank pulley off. I have tried thus far various impact wrenches (electric and pneumatic) to no avail. In fact, the bearing @ the rear of the crank vibrated itself right out during the aforementioned impact wrenching (I have since gently put it back in).

My question for you, my friends, is this:

What are your suggestions for removal at this point?
Should I try to bolt the flywheel back on, lock it down somehow, and then use a breaker bar?
Should I try and take a length of wood and bolt it to the crankshaft, use the engine stand as leverage, and use a breaker bar?

Keep in mind, I would prefer to keep the pulley intact since I hear they are in short supply.

[Mark D]

If you've tried and tried with various impacts to no avail then it sounds to me like you're on the right path as far as needing to lock down the crankshaft. Either reattaching the flywheel and then finding a way to fix it to the block or engine stand would work, or your other option of bolting the crankshaft to a piece of wood (or long strip of metal bar) and then bolting that to the engine stand should also do the job.

With the crankshaft locked in place I'd make a few more attempts to use the impact instead of going to a breaker bar right away. If that still doesn't work then the breaker bar should get the nut off. Make sure your engine stand is planted firmly to the ground so you don't tip it over. You might need to get creative with how to hold it in place so it's not scooting around on you.

I had a similar issue changing a crank pulley on my old Civic and not only did I need 3 foot breaker bar, I had to get another 2 foot extension of pipe and practically jump up and down on it to break the pulley bolt free. Hopefully yours comes off much easier.

I'm guessing some of the other more experienced engine rebuilders like Dave or Josh may have a few tricks for getting the pulley off.

[stevedmc]

On the old forum I documented myself removing that same nut. It took me about two weeks of scratching my head before I got it done.

My first bit of advice is, do not bend that pulley. It costs about $300 to replace.

This is what I ended up doing. I put a pipe wrench on the pulley to hold it still. Then I used a breaker bar and a 5 or 6 foot cheater pipe to get the nut off. In the process of doing so, the pulley got all bent up and I had to replace it. Fortunately for me, I had a spare pulley laying around the house.

If I were to do it again, I would still use the pipe wrench, but I would cover that pulley with all sorts or rags and pieces of rubber to prevent digging into it.


The things I tried that did not work included electric impact wrenches, air impact wrenches (at 3 different shops), and putting a torch on the nut. None of those worked for me. The big cheater pipe from home depot did work. I think I paid about $20 for the pipe and only used it once.

[David T]

Do not try holding the crank by the pulley. You WILL damage it. Put the flywheel back on and lock it in position. Then you should be able to get the nut loose with an impact or a long bar and socket. Be careful doing it on an engine stand, it will fall over especially if it is a 3 wheel type. Lay the whole lump on the floor, from there it can't fall over! BTW, to put the flywheel back on you have to take it off the engine stand anyway!
David Teitelbaum

[Morpheus]

Now I have to find my flywheel bolts... Did you know that NOBODY makes M9 hardware? I tried searching all the normal fastener outlets and nada.

[LEVY]

Do not try holding the crank by the pulley. You WILL damage it. Put the flywheel back on and lock it in position. Then you should be able to get the nut loose with an impact or a long bar and socket. Be careful doing it on an engine stand, it will fall over especially if it is a 3 wheel type. Lay the whole lump on the floor, from there it can't fall over! BTW, to put the flywheel back on you have to take it off the engine stand anyway!
David Teitelbaum

I agree with David (99.99%).

LEVY

[Ron]

+.999 ;)

Another Option- Purchase two strong bolts that fit the crank, put them in any two flywheel holes (as far apart as possible), place a strong bar between the two bolts and turn the crank until the bar jambs against the stand (keep the bar flat against the crank!!!), using a breaker-cheater held at ~9:30 O'Clock (to help prevent stand from flipping) break it loose...and discard the bolts!

[David T]

You will need those bolts anyway when you reassemble the motor. You don't have to tighten all the way up to the full torque value just to undo the crank pulley. I don't like the idea of a couple of bolts and a long bar. The bar will tend to bend when you put all of that force against it. Much better and safer to use the flywheel. The kit of special tools includes a small piece of what looks like a gear with a tab that has a hole in it. You mesh the gear part into the flywheel and fasten it to the block with a bolt. That locks the flywheel very securely but it only works if the transmission is removed. When using an impact it is necessary to hold the crank very securely so the impact can work most effectively. If the crank can move at all or bounces it absorbs the impact.
David Teitelbaum

[Morpheus]

The kit of special tools includes a small piece of what looks like a gear with a tab that has a hole in it. You mesh the gear part into the flywheel and fasten it to the block with a bolt. That locks the flywheel very securely but it only works if the transmission is removed.

And where would one find this magical tool? Are they as rare as cylinder retainers?

[Morpheus]

+.999 ;)

Another Option- Purchase two strong bolts that fit the crank...

That's the problem... nobody sells M9 bolts (that I have found, anyway).

[stevedmc]

That's the problem... nobody sells M9 bolts (that I have found, anyway).

http://store.delorean.com/p-8660-screw-m9.aspx

[Morpheus]

I should have been more specific.

Nobody (other than DMC) sells M9 bolts that I can find online. The problem with the DMC variety is that they are the stock size and thus not appropriate (read: longer) for the 2 bolts and a bar suggestion.

[stevedmc]

Put the engine on the floor. Get a long thick piece of steel bar. Drill two holes in the bar to mount it to the crankshaft using flywheel bolts. Let the bar hold the crankshaft still by pressing against the floor (clockwise as you look at it) as you turn the pulley nut on the other end.

[stevedmc]

Nobody (other than DMC) sells M9 bolts that I can find online. The problem with the DMC variety is that they are the stock size and thus not appropriate (read: longer) for the 2 bolts and a bar suggestion.

They will certainly hold a piece of 1/4" thick bar, which should be more than adequate. If you want something stouter use 1/4" thick angle iron.

[Morpheus]

Here's the problem:

The pilot bearing in the center of the crankshaft sticks out a bit (about 1/4") from the flywheel mounting surface. In order to do what you suggest, I would either need to find longer bolts, or find a wide enough steel bar to cut out a large diameter hole in the center of it as well as drill out bolt holes.

[stevedmc]

Pull the pilot bearing out (you weren't going to put the transmission back in the car with an old pilot bearing, were you?).

[Morpheus]

Have you (or Bill Robertson) ever even seen the rear side of a PRV crankshaft?

There is a raised lip surrounding the pilot bearing, so removing the bearing itself doesn't make it go away. This lip is presumably there to allow the flywheel to remain in position whilst it is being bolted down.

14360

See that round area in the middle? The pilot bearing and lip fits in there.

Here's a better view. It's of Nicholas' LS1 engine, but it has a similar setup.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GU36MxGzKVc/T5q5JBwRJAI/AAAAAAAAAsc/9krc8XXSSn8/s1600/IMG_1687.jpg

[David T]

The flywheel lock is as hard to get as the cylinder liner retainers. But in most cases once you see what it looks like (or understand it) you can fabricate something similar that can work. An old gear from a starter and a little metal and a welder and you can make a flywheel lock. If the OP is having trouble attaching a bar to the crank he is never going to be able to fab up a flywheel lock. Get some longer bolts and some washers if you have to. Or just get the flywheel back on and jam something to prevent it from moving. A block of wood can work. As for the bolts, if you know what you need you can order it from ARP. DMCH will probably wind up being cheaper and faster.
David Teitelbaum

[dmc6960]

Curious how long you tried hitting it with the impact. If only for a minute of two, you may need 10-30 more. Also crank up the pressure on the regulator. While the standard setting for most tools is 90psi, crank it up all the way when trying it. 120-130psi. It wont hurt your impact. Also make sure your socket is exactly the same size as the nut, on most engines its 35mm, not 36.

If all that fails, here's an option to possibly avoid removing it from the engine stand... Try locking the crankshaft with a screwdriver down the TDC alignment hole. I honestly have no idea if thats a good or bad thing to do, but it just might work.

[Morpheus]

Curious how long you tried hitting it with the impact. If only for a minute of two, you may need 10-30 more. Also crank up the pressure on the regulator. While the standard setting for most tools is 90psi, crank it up all the way when trying it. 120-130psi. It wont hurt your impact. Also make sure your socket is exactly the same size as the nut, on most engines its 35mm, not 36.

If all that fails, here's an option to possibly avoid removing it from the engine stand... Try locking the crankshaft with a screwdriver down the TDC alignment hole. I honestly have no idea if thats a good or bad thing to do, but it just might work.

What is this TDC alignment hole and where would I find it?

[opethmike]

If you have the water pump removed, you'll find two plugs with square holes in them, much like the oil drain plug. It is one of those.

[dmc6960]

They aren't both square. One is hex. I forget which one is which as well. One is for an oil galley, the other goes to the crankshaft.

[stevedmc]

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/269941_468347873210468_1528980727_n.jpg

[opethmike]

They aren't both square. One is hex. I forget which one is which as well. One is for an oil galley, the other goes to the crankshaft.

Oh yeah, that's right! The square one is definitely the one for the crankshaft.

[DMCTek]

The square hole is the correct one as Mike mentioned. You should use a punch instead of a screwdriver if you have one. Before any of this I would use a good quality impact wrench (450+ ft/lb of reverse torque). Make sure to remove any extensions, just a 1/2 impact and a 35mm socket. A short impact socket is preferred over a deep. Use a good penetrate and repeat. Last resort is a torch to heat the nut while the pulley is quenched with a wet rag, then replace the timing cover seal and nut.

[Ron]

That's the problem... nobody sells M9 bolts (that I have found, anyway).

Huh! ...Did you try ACE? All of them here in the hicks have M9...M7x1.00 is a different story. Threaded rod would work too...



I don't like the idea of a couple of bolts and a long bar. The bar will tend to bend when you put all of that force against it. Much better and safer to use the flywheel.
...
David TeitelbaumThat's got to be the oddest thing I have ever seen you post, David. If anything the bolts would bend. Why would that bar bend any more than the one used on the nut end anyway?



http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/269941_468347873210468_1528980727_n.jpg

Now that's a BMF bar!
I am so proud of Steve Rice!!!

[opethmike]

"Use a good penetrate and repeat."

That's what she said.

[Nicholas R]

Huh! ...Did you try ACE? All of them here in the hicks have M9...M7x1.00 is a different story. Threaded rod would work too...


No one, I repeat NO ONE carries M9 hardware. It's just not a bolt used in industry. The same goes for M11 bolts. This is why they use them on flywheels. So that you HAVE to use flywheel specific bolts and cant just throw any old grade 4.4 bolt in there and loose your flywheel. During my engine and transmission swap I had the task of locating both M11 and M9 hardware. The M11 is because the LS1 uses M11s at the flywheel and I needed extra long ones due to the flywheel offset (luckily the Cadillac CTS-V uses extra long M11's and I was able to get them from the dealer). The M9 bolt is for the one other place on the DeLorean that uses an M9 bolt. That would be this bolt:
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/425183_10100397863225915_859927169_n.jpg

It's an M9 shoulder bolt used as a pivot in the shifter assembly to actuate the cross shift cable. I almost ended up drilling it out to an M10 but luckily the correct bolt that went with this assembly was located.

[stevedmc]

Now that's a BMF bar!
I am so proud of Steve Rice!!!

It's big enough to prove wrong any and all Pontificators and Prevaricators who might claim that stock bolts aren't long enough to hold a piece of 1/4" thick steel....

If Steve Rice were to ask Bill Robertson, who did indeed break loose his crankshaft nut when swapping the pulley over to a new engine, how he did it, chances are Bill Robertson would answer "with a steel bar on the other end of the engine, pressing against the floor to prevent the crankshaft from turning."

[Ron]

It's big enough to prove wrong any and all Pontificators and Prevaricators who might claim that stock bolts aren't long enough to hold a piece of 1/4" thick steel....

If Steve Rice were to ask Bill Robertson, who did indeed break loose his crankshaft nut when swapping the pulley over to a new engine, how he did it, chances are Bill Robertson would answer "with a steel bar on the other end of the engine, pressing against the floor to prevent the crankshaft from turning."Somehow I think that is exactly what Bill did say.

[David T]

It didn't come to mind using that shape. Typically a bar is a long thin, round piece of metal but yes, that is also a bar. And yes, it will not bend. Not everyone has such a piece laying around, that's why I suggested putting the flywheel back on. As in most cases, there is more than one way to do the same job.
David Teitelbaum

[opethmike]

Pretty easy to pick one up from the hardware store for a few dollars.

[stevedmc]

It didn't come to mind using that shape. Typically a bar is a long thin, round piece of metal but yes, that is also a bar.

Actually a long thin round piece of metal is a "rod". Bars have flat sides.

The transmission bolt holes are 8" from the flywheel bolts -- why not lock the crankshaft to one of them? The OP doesn't have to go through the center of the crankshaft -- two flywheel bolts adjacent to each other would work just as well. Bill Robertson only locked his against the floor because that is where his engine was sitting already.

[David T]

I was thinking along the lines of a "Pry Bar" which is typically round, at least for automotive purposes. Yes, a short, flat piece of stock with a hole in each end bolting the crank to the housing would also probably work.
David Teitelbaum

[LEVY]

Steve, you will never win if playing against David!



I was thinking along the lines of a "Pry Bar" which is typically round, at least for automotive purposes. Yes, a short, flat piece of stock with a hole in each end bolting the crank to the housing would also probably work.
David Teitelbaum


Typically round!
14368


It didn't come to mind using that shape. Typically a bar is a long thin, round piece of metal but yes, that is also a bar. And yes, it will not bend. Not everyone has such a piece laying around, that's why I suggested putting the flywheel back on. As in most cases, there is more than one way to do the same job.
David Teitelbaum


Actually a long thin round piece of metal is a "rod". Bars have flat sides.
The transmission bolt holes are 8" from the flywheel bolts -- why not lock the crankshaft to one of them? The OP doesn't have to go through the center of the crankshaft -- two flywheel bolts adjacent to each other would work just as well. Bill Robertson only locked his against the floor because that is where his engine was sitting already.

LEVY

[stevedmc]

If Brandon gets his pulley nut off then he will be the winner. Hopefully Brandon posts pics (with annotated dimensions) of whatever he uses to lock his crankshaft.

[David T]

This isn't about "winning". It is supposed to be about helping each other and sharing information and experience. The more cooperation and collaboration the better for everyone. Not everyone thinks the same way and has tried different things than another person might try. A lot has to do with each person's skill set and the tools available. In most cases this forum works and the OP is able to get done what they need to. Or someone nearby runs over to help.
David Teitelbaum

[stevedmc]

This isn't about "winning".

I've already won. I got my nut off sometimes last year. At first I thought I lost since I bent my crankshaft pulley, but after digging around in the attic I found a spare and was able to repalce the bent pulley at zero cost.

[TheDon]

Brandon, if you need a new set of Flywheel bolts I believe I have a bag of them that I bought from DMCH. LMK and I will dig them out

[Shep]

Actually a long thin round piece of metal is a "rod". Bars have flat sides.Not necessarily. Those in the metal industry refer to both round and square steel lengths as "bars". The round ones are called "round bars" and the square ones are called "square bars". My dad's worked for one steel company and one alloy company, and both referred to their end results as "bars" regardless of shape. And if they're hollow, then they're "pipes", again regardless of shape. And for what it's worth, I have seen "rod" refer to square lengths of metal as well. "Rod" is defined (https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Arod) as "A thin straight bar, esp. of wood or metal." Bar is defined (https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Abar) as "A long rod or rigid piece of wood, metal, or similar material, typically used as an obstruction, fastening, or weapon." Note the lack of shape in either of those two definitions, and the interestingly circular reference of each word being in the other's definition.

Anyways, carry on! :wink:

[Ron]

This isn't about "winning". It is supposed to be about helping each other and sharing information and experience. The more cooperation and collaboration the better for everyone.
...
David Teitelbaum
:rofl: Oh really!?!
Please tell me why when I shared my experience, you felt it necessary to knock it?

======

That's got to be the oddest thing I have ever seen you post, David. If anything the bolts would bend. Why would that bar bend any more than the one used on the nut end anyway?

...and then not bother to share your experience (with everyone) -- even when directly asked?
Let me guess, you were skimming again and missed it, right?


P.S. Still waiting on you to post the mystery path on that bad rectifier diode......
Bet you don't know what I'm talking about, huh? :rolleyes:

[Ron]

I got my nut off sometimes last year.
Poor, poor Steve Rice!

[Morpheus]

Brandon, if you need a new set of Flywheel bolts I believe I have a bag of them that I bought from DMCH. LMK and I will dig them out

I have to dig around and see if I can find mine first, but I'll let you know if I need them. Thanks!

[Morpheus]

Brothers, after weeks of frustration, I stand before you today in triumph....

For today, I can finally say that I got my nut off.


I was able to find my flywheel bolts and put that heavy bastard back on. I built a crude wooden frame and lowered the engine onto it so that everything was stable and resting on the floor. Derek came over one afternoon and we started the journey.

I borrowed a Snap-On impact wrench from a family friend (considerably better quality than the HF unit I had used prior) and fired up the compressor. Derek and I took turns attacking the thing for 20 minute intervals to no avail.

Undeterred, we decided to attempt the breaker bar technique.

First, we tried to lock the flywheel by tying it up with a HF cargo strap. Epic fail.
Next, I remembered the TDC hole in the crankshaft and found a long phillips screwdriver to lock it down. It worked beautifully.

No amount of torquing with a 4 foot breaker bar and 5 foot cheater pipe was budging this thing. I was standing on the motor and Derek was jumping on the bar. Did it budge? No, it just looked at us and laughed.

Then, we tried heat. I have a propane torch, so we laid into that thing for a good while, alternating between heat and using water to cool things down. Breaker bar: fail. Impact: fail.

At this point, I knew that the only way this thing was coming off was at the hands of a machine shop. I wasn't going to go out and spend $300 or more on a heavy duty impact wrench, I'd rather pay $20 for a shop to do it. This would prove to be more of an undertaking than I first thought, since I had to coordinate transportation (I don't have a truck), a helper, and a shop's hours of operation (not many are open after 5pm or on weekends).

I called around locally and found a shop nearby. Told the guy on the phone my story, and he offered to come to my house with his 900 lb/ft impact and take care of it. He said that he had never seen a nut that he couldn't budge with this impact wrench, and I said "Let's hope so".

This mechanic attacked it for a good 20 minutes, and even he was shocked by the resilience demonstrated by this nut. I sprayed a little more PB blaster on it, and he gave it one more valiant effort...

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa5/morpheus34711/Daphne%20VIN%204363/07%20Engine%20Rebuild/08E8833F-C04A-4B52-BCFB-BE3EFA6A495F-22534-00001BC71EA02998.jpg

Success!

In closing, I just want to say that I hate the PO of this car and his "mechanic". The guy put so much loctite on this nut that it took 900 foot pounds of pressure to break it free. I only hope that as I tear this motor apart further, there are no more surprises like this one.

[Mark D]

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=15544&d=1355930486

[David T]

I would have probably tried more and hotter heat. A Propane torch is not all that hot, at least not compared to Acetylene and Oxygen. The trick is to not get the crank too hot and take the temper out of it. You have to keep the heat confined to the nut. The heat would also have undone the Locktite. As for the impact gun, it is a combination of things. The part MUST be rigidly held so you don't lose the "impact" part. The strap would absorb the impact, the screwdriver won't. You need a really good, heavy duty impact gun and you need a LOT of high pressure air from a large compressor so the impact keeps hitting hard even after the initial start. You didn't mention if he still charged you only $20!
David Teitelbaum

[Morpheus]

You didn't mention if he still charged you only $20!


He did, but I gave him $40 because I was so grateful. :thankyou: