Choices of speakers

[dmruschell]

Haha! Yeah it was cool meeting you guys, looking forward to seeing everyone again. I should be able to make it the holiday party but I doubt I will have anything done by then. Maybe by spring. That's cool thanks for the offer! I'm definitely not an engineer but I sold/installed car audio for awhile, looking forward to putting a system together again. I wish I hadn't sold off most of my spare gear. I do still have a JL Audio 500/5 amp, I am thinking of using that and doing components in the front and either the 8 in cubby OR maybe do a custom fiberglass enclosure/amp rack on the cargo shelf with JL 10W3 that I have, ah the possibilities. My concern is the rattling that will accompany putting a powerful system in a 30 yr old car. BTW sorry everyone for hijacking this thread lol.

If the 5 channel amp will fit behind the cargo shelf (assuming you cut away the foam), I would install it back there (just like the Genesis amp on the DMCH new builds) and investigate a sub in the cubby. I think I've heard of one person fitting a 10 inch sub in there (and JL 10 inchers sound amazing), but I could be wrong. The 8 inch subs do lack a little deep bottom end, but you do need space (and enclosure cubic inches) for a larger sub. If you use your 5 channel amp, for the rear factory speaker locations, I'd get either a set of 2x10s or 5.25" speakers just to fill it out a little bit. Sending actual amplified signal to the stock speakers wouldn't last long. Or, maybe some 6x9s on the rear parcel shelf if you put your sub in the cubby. You could probably get away with the components and a sub, but then you have 2 unused channels from your amp :) Heck, my best sounding stereo is two 4x6s in the front with two 6x9s (low passed like a sub) and a JL 10" sub in the back.

We're still mostly on topic, so we haven't hijacked too much :P

[Notifier]

Maybe there should be a thread for showing off what everyone has? More of an informational type of thread for others looking to add speakers, subs, head units, amps, etc. I would start it but my setup is rather basic, and needs a lot of work itself!

[aipri]

Yeah I would definitely do a new enclosure on the parcel shelf it I did a 10, I don't see any way there is enough space for a 10 in the cubby. I like the accuracy of 8's but I'd prefer a 10 as you obviously will get more low end range out of it. I'm considering just disconnecting the rears altogether, I think in a cabin so small with a good set of fronts and a sub, you will get everything you need, plus I won't have to start tearing those panels off. The JL 500/5 breaks out as 100X2 to the front 25x2 to the rear and 250X1 for the sub. I think what I would do is get real nice set of 6.5 components for the front, and reconfigure the amp to run the tweeters with the rear channels, and the mids with the front channels. I will have to find pics of the DMC amp install to see what it looks like, the JL amp is pretty big, so I might just have to do a custom amp rack on the parcel shelf. I don't use the shelf anyway so I don't have a problem taking it up.

[dmruschell]

Yeah I would definitely do a new enclosure on the parcel shelf it I did a 10, I don't see any way there is enough space for a 10 in the cubby. I like the accuracy of 8's but I'd prefer a 10 as you obviously will get more low end range out of it. I'm considering just disconnecting the rears altogether, I think in a cabin so small with a good set of fronts and a sub, you will get everything you need, plus I won't have to start tearing those panels off. The JL 500/5 breaks out as 100X2 to the front 25x2 to the rear and 250X1 for the sub. I think what I would do is get real nice set of 6.5 components for the front, and reconfigure the amp to run the tweeters with the rear channels, and the mids with the front channels. I will have to find pics of the DMC amp install to see what it looks like, the JL amp is pretty big, so I might just have to do a custom amp rack on the parcel shelf. I don't use the shelf anyway so I don't have a problem taking it up.

If you get a true component setup for the front, the 100x2 will run both the woofer and the tweeter. What you could do is get a pair of 6.5" speakers and a pair of 3.5" speakers and then configure the amp to low pass the 100W 6.5s and high pass the 25W 3.5s.

If the amp is less than 3 inches thick, you should be able to get it to fit behind the rear parcel shelf. You'll have to cut out the foam that's there and fir the amp where you cut the foam out. I'll actually be doing an install like this in a couple of weeks for a friend, so I can take pictures if you'd like. The DMCH builds have dynomat material instead of the foam, they just set the amp in between the shelf backing and the dynomat. Honestly, the rears don't do much except add a little fill, and make up for the small 3.5" speakers. With components in the front, they might not be needed.

Taking the panels off isn't really that bad of a job. If you go slow (and you will make your fingers sore), you'll be fine. Some people soften the glue with a hair dryer. Others cut the panels, but I wouldn't recommend that. I've seen cars where the previous owners did a bad job of cutting, and it didn't look pretty. Those pieces aren't available anymore.

[anywhen]

I was going to do my new stereo myself but saw a 60 minute episode on Brazil. The national saying of Brazil is "why do something today that you can pay someone to do tomorrow". A local stereo shop named Kings Bay Trucks, has a stereo surgeon named Glenn that has been doing installs for 25+ years. I left the car with them for over a month and told them I was in no hurry. Glenn custom made my subwoofer enclosure. The company owner said it took over a week to get it just right. As you can see I have 6x6" speaker/woofers and a 700 watt 5-channel Memphis Baby Bell amp. I went with Memphis speaker and JL subwoofers. The head unit is a JVC Kameleon. As you all know it is hard to multi-task in a DeLorean. This head unit is touch operated. To adjust the volume, touch anywhere on the face with a circle motion. To go up, clockwise and down, counter clockwise. To skip to the next song, touch and draw a line to the right and you can repeat a song by the opposite touch. Glenn custom made the front enclosures out of fiberglass and installed my new carpet and dynamat. What is amazing to me is how well it sounds at low volume and how you can turn it up as loud as you want to. I have about $1,500 in the equipment and $1,000 labor. Glenn thanks me every time I see him for letting him do my DeLorean233592336023361233622336323364233652336623 36723368

[aipri]

Hey guys, I was able to get in touch with Danny at DMC CA and they do still sell the speaker enclosures. Here are a couple of pics he sent me. They look good, I am just concerned they may not be deep enough for the speakers I have in mind.

2337623377

[nkemp]

JVC Kameleon. ... To adjust the volume, touch anywhere on the face with a circle motion. To go up, clockwise and down, counter clockwise. To skip to the next song, touch and draw a line to the right and you can repeat a song by the opposite touch.

I like the look of the JVC Kameleon but wasn't sure how I'd like the controls. Knob'd radios can be operated without taking your eyes off the road. I was concerned that operating the Kameleon would not be as simple. You make it sound user friendly. Do you like the knobless controls as well as knobs?

[dmruschell]

Hey guys, I was able to get in touch with Danny at DMC CA and they do still sell the speaker enclosures. Here are a couple of pics he sent me. They look good, I am just concerned they may not be deep enough for the speakers I have in mind.

2337623377

Re-reading your posts, you said you already have the Boston Acoustic 6.5" components. If you definitely want to have the 6.5s up front, I'd say get the enclosures. I know their subs come with the subwoofers installed, and considering they make the enclosures, they could probably help you find a set of speakers that would fit, or tell you if what you have will fit if you know the mounting depth. The worst that can happen is that you'll have to find a different set of 6.5" components, but at least then you can find out how much depth the enclosures have and compare the measurements of the Boston Acoustics to whatever you're looking at buying to make sure your next set fits. You could then sell the Boston Acoustics to offset the cost of the new speakers.

That, and I want to see/hear your setup to know if it's something I should consider doing at some point :P

[dmruschell]

I was going to do my new stereo myself but saw a 60 minute episode on Brazil. The national saying of Brazil is "why do something today that you can pay someone to do tomorrow". A local stereo shop named Kings Bay Trucks, has a stereo surgeon named Glenn that has been doing installs for 25+ years. I left the car with them for over a month and told them I was in no hurry. Glenn custom made my subwoofer enclosure. The company owner said it took over a week to get it just right. As you can see I have 6x6" speaker/woofers and a 700 watt 5-channel Memphis Baby Bell amp. I went with Memphis speaker and JL subwoofers. The head unit is a JVC Kameleon. As you all know it is hard to multi-task in a DeLorean. This head unit is touch operated. To adjust the volume, touch anywhere on the face with a circle motion. To go up, clockwise and down, counter clockwise. To skip to the next song, touch and draw a line to the right and you can repeat a song by the opposite touch. Glenn custom made the front enclosures out of fiberglass and installed my new carpet and dynamat. What is amazing to me is how well it sounds at low volume and how you can turn it up as loud as you want to. I have about $1,500 in the equipment and $1,000 labor. Glenn thanks me every time I see him for letting him do my DeLorean233592336023361233622336323364233652336623 36723368

That is a pretty sick setup! What are the speakers/subs in the cubby hole? I've never seen anyone manage to get two speakers mounted in there before.

[anywhen]

I like the look of the JVC Kameleon but wasn't sure how I'd like the controls. Knob'd radios can be operated without taking your eyes off the road. I was concerned that operating the Kameleon would not be as simple. You make it sound user friendly. Do you like the knobless controls as well as knobs? The Kameleon does come with a remote controller which is nice to play with. The only thing that I do not like about the head unit is in bright light it is hard to read. I really like turning up and down the volume with the circular motions. At night I have it on a black screen and when your finger gets close (not touch) the screen come on.

[anywhen]

That is a pretty sick setup! What are the speakers/subs in the cubby hole? I've never seen anyone manage to get two speakers mounted in there before.

Glenn wanted to do something different and the 2 x JL 6" subs is what he talked me into. He told me it would kick much harder than one 8" sub. You can really feel the bass and feel the air pushing around the seat. He did take a lot of time with the sub-box and port tube lenght to get it right.

[aipri]

Re-reading your posts, you said you already have the Boston Acoustic 6.5" components. If you definitely want to have the 6.5s up front, I'd say get the enclosures. I know their subs come with the subwoofers installed, and considering they make the enclosures, they could probably help you find a set of speakers that would fit, or tell you if what you have will fit if you know the mounting depth. The worst that can happen is that you'll have to find a different set of 6.5" components, but at least then you can find out how much depth the enclosures have and compare the measurements of the Boston Acoustics to whatever you're looking at buying to make sure your next set fits. You could then sell the Boston Acoustics to offset the cost of the new speakers.

That, and I want to see/hear your setup to know if it's something I should consider doing at some point :P

Haha I'll keep you posted. I contacted the DMA member who makes them as well but haven't heard back yet. I'm bringing the car over to my buddy who is an installer/fabricator next week to see what we can do. I am sure the cubby setup sounds fine, but I really want to use my 10w3 because I love those subs, and I would like to show off a little with a nice custom setup on the parcel shelf. BTW did you install your head unit? If so did you cut the the opening to din size or did you buy the whole new faceplate from DMC?

[aipri]

Glenn wanted to do something different and the 2 x JL 6" subs is what he talked me into. He told me it would kick much harder than one 8" sub. You can really feel the bass and feel the air pushing around the seat. He did take a lot of time with the sub-box and port tube lenght to get it right.

Your setup looks great, the kick panels in the front look really well done. And in my humble opinion you can never go wrong with JL, they have always been one of my favorites. The 6w0s or w3s are great little subs, we used to use them under seats or other cramped areas, and they always delivered.

[dmruschell]

Haha I'll keep you posted. I contacted the DMA member who makes them as well but haven't heard back yet. I'm bringing the car over to my buddy who is an installer/fabricator next week to see what we can do. I am sure the cubby setup sounds fine, but I really want to use my 10w3 because I love those subs, and I would like to show off a little with a nice custom setup on the parcel shelf. BTW did you install your head unit? If so did you cut the the opening to din size or did you buy the whole new faceplate from DMC?

I bought the new faceplate from DMCH. Some people have cut theirs and had it work, but I'm not that talented. Also, the size tolerance is pretty small. I helped a friend replace his DIN head unit on a cut faceplate, and it took some working to get the old out and the new in. I mostly didn't want to cut an original for my own because they aren't making them that way anymore, and at some point, maybe someone will need it. Doubtful, but you never know.

[uhhair]

I cut mine, if you use a dremel and go slow it's actually pretty easy. The cut doesn't have to be perfect, the head unit will hide most of the remaining thin metal piece below where the unit will rest.

Be careful with how big you build the enclosures down by the pedals. There isn't a whole lot of room down there before you start interfering with leg room.

[aipri]

Yeah I think I am going to go the dremel route. The speaker enclosures from DMCCA look very unobtrusive so I am leaning that way, leg room is definitely important to me.

[dmruschell]

Just as an FYI to anyone purchasing the DMC-CA sub: they're currently offering one speaker to be included with the enclosure: an 8 ohm Kicker sub. I mention this because most sub amps are rated for loads of 2 and 4 ohms, since almost all subs are 2 and 4 ohms. The Pioneer they used to offer and the JL that DMCH used were both 4 ohms, so that's what I was expecting when I ordered another one for a friend. I just had to order a different sub/speaker because the amp I already purchased isn't rated for 8 Ohms, and the power would be greatly diminished at that load. I ordered a 2 ohm Kicker, and will post my impressions when I get it compared to the JL and Pioneer I have in my cars.

[kobachi]

Just as an FYI to anyone purchasing the DMC-CA sub: they're currently offering one speaker to be included with the enclosure: an 8 ohm Kicker sub. I mention this because most sub amps are rated for loads of 2 and 4 ohms, since almost all subs are 2 and 4 ohms. The Pioneer they used to offer and the JL that DMCH used were both 4 ohms, so that's what I was expecting when I ordered another one for a friend. I just had to order a different sub/speaker because the amp I already purchased isn't rated for 8 Ohms, and the power would be greatly diminished at that load. I ordered a 2 ohm Kicker, and will post my impressions when I get it compared to the JL and Pioneer I have in my cars.

I ordered one of these yesterday and was told by Danny it's a Kicker 40CWD84 (http://www.crutchfield.com/p_2064CWD84/Kicker-40CWD84.html), which is a dual-coil 4-Ohm sub. I've never even heard of an 8-Ohm sub. Where are you getting this info? Unless you're talking about wiring the two coils in series...

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-UET1EGHGexm/learn/learningcenter/car/subwoofers_dual.html

[dmruschell]

I ordered one of these yesterday and was told by Danny it's a Kicker 40CWD84 (http://www.crutchfield.com/p_2064CWD84/Kicker-40CWD84.html), which is a dual-coil 4-Ohm sub. I've never even heard of an 8-Ohm sub. Where are you getting this info? Unless you're talking about wiring the two coils in series...

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-UET1EGHGexm/learn/learningcenter/car/subwoofers_dual.html

I took the speaker out of the enclosure and read the specs off of the back of the speaker. 23426

Edit: I wish it was the sub that Danny told you it is. That would have saved me $80. The one I received is only rated for 100w RMS, which is about what it would see from the 250 watt at 2ohms amp that I bought. The sub Danny said it is would have been perfect.

[kobachi]

I took the speaker out of the enclosure and read the specs off of the back of the speaker. 23426

Edit: I wish it was the sub that Danny told you it is. That would have saved me $80. The one I received is only rated for 100w RMS, which is about what it would see from the 250 watt at 2ohms amp that I bought. The sub Danny said it is would have been perfect.

Well, shit. I guess I'll open mine up when it gets here and see what it is. I sure hope I don't get what you got.

[dmruschell]

Well, shit. I guess I'll open mine up when it gets here and see what it is. I sure hope I don't get what you got.

When you get it, please post on here what you end up getting.

The enclosures only have one set of connections (one positive, one negative... unless they made the enclosure different for the DVC sub), so you would have to do all of the wiring inside the enclosure, since you wouldn't have access to the 2 sets of terminals from outside the enclosure.

I've found that adding polyester fiber to the enclosure can improve the sound, so that might be something to consider when you get yours :)

[kobachi]

When you get it, please post on here what you end up getting.

The enclosures only have one set of connections (one positive, one negative... unless they made the enclosure different for the DVC sub), so you would have to do all of the wiring inside the enclosure, since you wouldn't have access to the 2 sets of terminals from outside the enclosure.

I've found that adding polyester fiber to the enclosure can improve the sound, so that might be something to consider when you get yours :)

I will definitely do so.

Can you measure the dimensions on yours, and maybe estimate the inner dimensions? An 8" sub really needs at least a half-cubic-foot of space, and I can't imagine these boxes are that big. The fiber would definitely help with that.

I just called Danny to ask about the model numbers -- he says I got his last in-stock box so he can't crack open another to confirm. From what he says, it's a third-party guy building them. Maybe that guy isn't so consistent with which model he uses. I'll let you know what I find.

[dmruschell]

I will definitely do so.

Can you measure the dimensions on yours, and maybe estimate the inner dimensions? An 8" sub really needs at least a half-cubic-foot of space, and I can't imagine these boxes are that big. The fiber would definitely help with that.

I just called Danny to ask about the model numbers -- he says I got his last in-stock box so he can't crack open another to confirm. From what he says, it's a third-party guy building them. Maybe that guy isn't so consistent with which model he uses. I'll let you know what I find.

The approximate outer dimensions are Height: 9.5", Width: 9.75", Depth: 8". then, because of the slant, and the thickness of the board, it's approximately half of the "boxed" dimensions. So, (9.5 * 9.75 * 8)/2 = 370.5 cubic inches. According to a conversion website (http://www.metric-conversions.org/volume/cubic-inches-to-cubic-feet.htm), that is 0.21441ft³. The fiber definitely helps. On my 97 Vette with a sub/speaker box, the fiber tamed some of the boominess above 100Hz, and did the same to a little lesser extent with the DMC sub. The DMC sub will never produce the super deep bass that larger subs with bigger boxes will (and so will always have a bit of boominess to it), but it can be made to sound very good nonetheless.

I would think it might be a good idea for DMC-CA to sell them without the actual speakers, and then give advice on possible models that they know do fit. That way, we can decide for ourselves what sub we want and they don't have to worry about it. If I had a choice, I probably wouldn't have bought the Pioneer sub mine came with. Am I happy with it? Sure. Would I rather have the JL that my girlfriend's DeLorean has? Yes. I bought a 2ohm Kicker sub to put in the box I just purchased and will test the setup with the amp I bought either when I get my car back from the shop this week or when we install it in my friend's DeLorean. I'm interested to hear hear how it sounds/compares to the Pioneer and JL I have.

[DavidProehl]

Well, shit. I guess I'll open mine up when it gets here and see what it is. I sure hope I don't get what you got.

I'm fairly confident I have one of these sub boxes from DMC-CA sitting under my Christmas tree right now (gave my wife the hint that I wanted one). Now I have to wait until Christmas to verify if I ended up with a 4 or 8 ohm model. I too was under the impression they only sold 4 ohm.

[dmruschell]

The 2ohm kicker replacement sub arrived today, so I started installing it in the enclosure. It was then that I realized how shoddy some of the workmanship is, at least on the one I received. The sub that came with it didn't sit down in the recess that's made for it, but I figured that's how it was supposed to be (without the rim of the sub in that recess, it's not an air tight seal). But, I test fitted the new sub and the rim fit right into the recess on the enclosure. However, the screw holes that the guy made are so cockeyed that some of the screw holes won't line up when the sub is properly seated. I had all 8 screws started, thinking the torque from the screws would force it into place. And I stripped 2 screw holes and damaged the plastic around the screw holes on the sub. I've now got it seated properly, minus 3 screws, but I think I can make it work. I'm happy with the one I bought last year, but it seems the quality of the speaker has decreased, the quality of the workmanship decreased (I could have made straighter screw holes), and the price increased from $250 to $275. But, they're currently the only source for these. Here are a couple of pics of the screws lining up.2352423525

[kobachi]

I received mine yesterday. http://imgur.com/a/xZjGr

http://i.imgur.com/rQUCwI3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/8vLRly2.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/e3V52H7.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/L52D4Ar.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/K0TdEJM.jpg?1

I was also disappointed to receive the 8-Ohm 10C88. The quality of the box seems fine to me, but my screw holes are similarly terrible and feel like they will easily break.

[dmruschell]

I guess I must have overstated my opinion. The box itself on mine is fine; my main complaint was the screw holes. I did post in the middle of fighting with those screw holes, so my bit of frustration was probably let loose on the page.

The replacement sub I bought and had mentioned is the 40CWS82 (http://www.crutchfield.com/S-SQfNz9cdm4j/p_2064CWS82/Kicker-40CWS82.html). It's also available in a 4ohm version (http://www.crutchfield.com/p_2064CWS84/Kicker-40CWS84.html). I tested it out yesterday in my Vette (my DeLorean was in the shop, but I just got it back today and want to A/B it with my Pioneer tomorrow) and it sounded very good. I was impressed, especially for a little 8 inch.

[kobachi]

I'm going to wire the 8-Ohm up and see how it is. Not gonna hurt my 300W@4-Ohm amp.

[DavidProehl]

Opened my DMC-CA sub box today, it came with the same 8 ohm unit previously listed. This must be what they all ship with now. I also had the strange angled screws previously mentioned by dmrushchell.

24201

[jawn101]

Opened my DMC-CA sub box today, it came with the same 8 ohm unit previously listed. This must be what they all ship with now. I also had the strange angled screws previously mentioned by dmrushchell.

24201

Same driver mine came with. Exciting times for David!! How are you gonna drive it?

[DavidProehl]

Same driver mine came with. Exciting times for David!! How are you gonna drive it?

Very exciting! The plan is to first install my new Infinity 52.9i rear speakers (already have new fronts installed) with the Craig to see if it is able to drive enough power to them. If it is, I'll buy the JL XD300/1 amp you have to power the sub only. If the Craig isn't able to handle the new speakers properly, I'll need to get a 5 channel amp, possibly the Precision Power P900.5 (not the best amp but a great price for 5 channel).

[jawn101]

Very exciting! The plan is to first install my new Infinity 52.9i rear speakers (already have new fronts installed) with the Craig to see if it is able to drive enough power to them. If it is, I'll buy the JL XD300/1 amp you have to power the sub only. If the Craig isn't able to handle the new speakers properly, I'll need to get a 5 channel amp, possibly the Precision Power P900.5 (not the best amp but a great price for 5 channel).

Right on! Are you going to do speaker level inputs to the amps like you were planning, or modify the Craig to have line level outputs?

[anywhen]

Where is the best location to mount this JL sub? It weighs in at 65 pounds. It is going in a Nissan GTR.:strongman:

[DavidProehl]

Right on! Are you going to do speaker level inputs to the amps like you were planning, or modify the Craig to have line level outputs?

Not interested in modifying the Craig at this point, although that would probably be the "right" way to do it. I'm planning on using the speaker signal into a line out converter before going to the amp. We'll see how well it works. This is my first stereo project, so I'm bound to realize I'm doing something wrong and need to change my approach.

[cybercusp]

I'm not sure if DMCCA is still offering a choice in sub speakers, but when I ordered mine I did not like the choice of speaker that came with it for my particular setup; I'm running the JL amp. I believe Danny said they source the speaker from an outside vendor and as long as that vendor had the speaker I wanted then DMCCA would install it and I could pay the difference.

[kobachi]

Not interested in modifying the Craig at this point, although that would probably be the "right" way to do it. I'm planning on using the speaker signal into a line out converter before going to the amp. We'll see how well it works. This is my first stereo project, so I'm bound to realize I'm doing something wrong and need to change my approach.

There are some amps that can take both levels of input. The PBR300 series from Rockford Fosgate is an example -- I'm using two of these in my car and they're great little amps. I even managed to fit one underneath the dash behind the glovebox.

[DavidProehl]

The plan is to first install my new Infinity 52.9i rear speakers (already have new fronts installed) with the Craig to see if it is able to drive enough power to them.

I have my rears installed now and the Craig has more than enough power to drive the new Infinity speakers.


There are some amps that can take both levels of input. The PBR300 series from Rockford Fosgate is an example -- I'm using two of these in my car and they're great little amps. I even managed to fit one underneath the dash behind the glovebox.

Great call out. Looking at the manual for the JL XD300/1, it also offers both pre-amp and speaker level inputs via RCA connections. I should be covered without line converters if I go with this amp.

[kobachi]

I have my rears installed now and the Craig has more than enough power to drive the new Infinity speakers.

I can't believe this for a second. These are 55W RMS speakers -- 110W / 13.8V = 8A. The Craig stereo has a 2.5A continuous/5A momentary fuse on it. And it, and the front speakers, need power too. And amp technology was significantly less efficient in 1981.

Be careful with this :) I thought my Pioneer deck had enough power to drive my 6x9s as well, but adding an amp was night-and-day.

[DavidProehl]

I can't believe this for a second. These are 55W RMS speakers -- 110W / 13.8V = 8A. The Craig stereo has a 2.5A continuous/5A momentary fuse on it. And it, and the front speakers, need power too. And amp technology was significantly less efficient in 1981.

Be careful with this :) I thought my Pioneer deck had enough power to drive my 6x9s as well, but adding an amp was night-and-day.

I have no doubt that a modern amp would give me more power and a cleaner signal, but I have all 4 Inifinity speakers installed right now with only the Craig powering them and it goes louder than I'll ever want to listen to it and is clear enough for my untrained ear.

[kobachi]

I have no doubt that a modern amp would give me more power and a cleaner signal, but I have all 4 Inifinity speakers installed right now with only the Craig powering them and it goes louder than I'll ever want to listen to it and is clear enough for my untrained ear.

All I can say is that is pretty much exactly how I felt before I put my amp on too. But if you're happy with it then who am I to argue :)

[Tomcio]

I can't believe this for a second. These are 55W RMS speakers -- 110W / 13.8V = 8A. The Craig stereo has a 2.5A continuous/5A momentary fuse on it. And it, and the front speakers, need power too. And amp technology was significantly less efficient in 1981.

Be careful with this :) I thought my Pioneer deck had enough power to drive my 6x9s as well, but adding an amp was night-and-day.

It doesn't really work this way. You would need to lower the resistance of the speaker in order to get that much power. At 4 ohms you only get:
I=U/R
I=13.8/4
I=3.45A
Then you have to remember that you will not get the entire 13.8V at the speaker and you probably can't get that much at the power amp inside the Craig unit. Then you have the amp itself. In the end you get about 10V at the speaker if you're lucky. 10V at 4 ohms gives 2.5A. That equals to about 25W of real power at the speaker. Not much...
A real external amp will use a boost type power supply that will increase the voltage and allow higher power levels at 4 ohms. Without it, 25W is pretty much max of what you can get. With MOSFET transistors you can get a little more but still well below 8A. That's why external amps sound so much better.

[kobachi]

It doesn't really work this way. You would need to lower the resistance of the speaker in order to get that much power. At 4 ohms you only get:
I=U/R
I=13.8/4
I=3.45A
Then you have to remember that you will not get the entire 13.8V at the speaker and you probably can't get that much at the power amp inside the Craig unit. Then you have the amp itself. In the end you get about 10V at the speaker if you're lucky. 10V at 4 ohms gives 2.5A. That equals to about 25W of real power at the speaker. Not much...
A real external amp will use a boost type power supply that will increase the voltage and allow higher power levels at 4 ohms. Without it, 25W is pretty much max of what you can get. With MOSFET transistors you can get a little more but still well below 8A. That's why external amps sound so much better.

You are so completely right; I'm embarrassed by my post. I've been working on power into amps recently and got my wires crossed (har) thinking about power into speakers. Thanks for the correction.

That being said, the fuse on the Craig is 2.5A continuous. He's still going to be very close to full load on that radio.

[dmruschell]

Aren't most infinity speakers 2ohms? I know they were 2 ohms a few years ago, with the reasoning being that the speaker resistance plus the wire resistance gave a "true" 4 ohm load to the amp. I don't know if their reasoning is correct, but that's what the marketing literature said.

If they are 2 ohm speakers, they may be getting more wattage (and more volume) than the originals. Bass blockers would allow the volume to go higher without the bass distorting (which the sub would cover anyways). I swapped my front speakers before I swapped my head unit, and the Craig still put out some decent volume. However, I don't think I'll ever put it back in the car lol.

[Tomcio]

You are so completely right; I'm embarrassed by my post. I've been working on power into amps recently and got my wires crossed (har) thinking about power into speakers. Thanks for the correction.

That being said, the fuse on the Craig is 2.5A continuous. He's still going to be very close to full load on that radio.

No problem... don't worry about it. ;)

I got my schematic out for the Craig unit and that 2.5A fuse is well... OK.
Looking at the power amp (if you can really call this "power") the numbers are not very impressive and it explains the poor power and sound quality.
The chip was made by NEC and it is uPC1185H.
The specs are:
Po = 5.8W (typ.) at Vcc = 13.2V, RL = 4Ω, THD = 10%
It's a two channel amplifier capable of delivering a whopping 5.8W typically at 13.2V! The max power is rated at 7W at 14.4V.
Good thing is that there are two of those in each Craig unit. One drives the left speakers and one drives the right speakers. Please note that this amazing power comes at a cost of 10% total harmonic distortion. At 0.5W the THD is about 0.5%.
I wonder what kind of voltage we get at the amp in our cars. I would say that 4W is all we can expect and it is actually a lot less than I was expecting. So, if you ask it to play a constant tone at 1kHz at full power on all channels the current of the amp alone is going to be about 1.25A. Add the other parts of the Craig unit (tuner, display, tape mechanism) and 2.5A fuse is just fine. It's just not a very powerful unit.

All this technical stuff should tell you that if you want a decent sound system the Craig should go first! You can't really get a high quality sound when the source is so bad. If you use an external amp and simply amplify garbage from the Craig you get garbage out... just more of it ;)
Get a decent head unit and even without an external amp the improvement will be huge. Head units without step-up power supplies but with MOSFET amps can deliver over 40W at 13V per 4Ω channel. That to me is plenty enough. Just remember that the Craig uses common ground for the speakers and that is a big no-no for any modern unit.

[AirmanPika]

Wow this thread has certainly blown up since I installed my infinity speakers years ago. I'll admit I've not been very happy with my audio since the installation. For one, our cars suck for what you can put in them with limited mods (such as the case for me with the Infinity Kappa 52.9i rears and 32.9cf fronts). I also had an uber basic subwoofer amp (forger the brand...it's cheap) and an 8" JL Audio sub installed in the cubby behind the driver's seat.

I just got ahold of a McIntosh MC431 amp which I intend to use as my amp for the speakers (it's 4x100w) and at this time use the existing sub amp as is, connected to the sub output on the McIntosh amp. Since I have some experience with McIntosh home audio, I am hoping that this will help even out some of the issues I personally have. It is going to take a bit of rewiring but hopefully this will solve my annoyances. I may cave and find a mounting solution I like for my spare 6x9 infinity kappa speakers worst case for the rears. Heavy cardboard, carpet, and some Velcro I suspect (I don't like the rear firewall option some use)

[kobachi]

(I don't like the rear firewall option some use)

What's your concern with it? With the extra "cubby space" on the pontoon sides and the power/ground posts, I've found it's basically a perfect place to wire up an amp and speakers. If you build a new panel with MDF (a virtual necessity IMO), you can even tear out the old crappy carpet pad and still have an overall reduction in cabin noise. Win/win/win.

[AirmanPika]

What's your concern with it? With the extra "cubby space" on the pontoon sides

That actually is my main issue. I personally use that space for several things and also I can't fit the amps the way I prefer. If It wasn't for that I'd prolly be fine with the extended firewall.

[dmruschell]

That actually is my main issue. I personally use that space for several things and also I can't fit the amps the way I prefer. If It wasn't for that I'd prolly be fine with the extended firewall.

It's possible to cut away part of the foam against the firewall and put an amp in the space that was cut away. That way, you're not losing the space on the sides of the firewall.

What is your complaint about the sound? I did listening tests of speakers a few years back in Best Buy, and found that Infinity car speakers tend to sound very bright, which can get harsh. (Their home theater speakers sound great, though.) I personally use Polk speakers in all of my cars, and have had great success with their DX series. I have Polk 3.5 inch speakers up front and 5.25 inch speakers in the rear, with a Pioneer DMC-CA sub. I'm an studio/audio engineer and am happy with the sound I get from my setup. I don't even have an extra amp for my speakers; they're just run from the head unit.

[kobachi]

That actually is my main issue. I personally use that space for several things and also I can't fit the amps the way I prefer. If It wasn't for that I'd prolly be fine with the extended firewall.

So here's a sneak-peak on a post I'll be making in a week or two: if you use RF's little PBR300 amps, you can fit them in all kinds of weird places. I fit one behind my glovebox, and another in the gap in the driver-side tray above the cubby box that holds the idle speed regulator. There's a gap that's juuussstttt right for holding the amp upright :D So now there's nothing between my speaker panel and firewall at all.

Also, it's hilarious that we call it a firewall, because both that plywood panel and the fiberglass wall are definitely going to melt in the event of a fire.

[AirmanPika]

So here's a sneak-peak on a post I'll be making in a week or two: if you use RF's little PBR300 amps, you can fit them in all kinds of weird places. I fit one behind my glovebox, and another in the gap in the driver-side tray above the cubby box that holds the idle speed regulator. There's a gap that's juuussstttt right for holding the amp upright :D So now there's nothing between my speaker panel and firewall at all.

Also, it's hilarious that we call it a firewall, because both that plywood panel and the fiberglass wall are definitely going to melt in the event of a fire.

Heh true indeed. Anyway I like that little amp. I kinda want one now to use as the sub amp in conjunction with the McIntosh amp.

[jawn101]

I can't wait to hear David P's setup with the round speakers in the back. I'm starting to wish I had gone round instead of oval when I did mine (the thought didn't even cross my mind, and I just ordered and installed direct size matches for OEM). With my subwoofer installed I'm having a hell of a time finding a good balance between reasonable bass at low volumes and being just overwhelming when loud. There's no shortage of power or bass, but getting the right amount at the right time is proving to be a challenge.

[DavidProehl]

I can't wait to hear David P's setup with the round speakers in the back. I'm starting to wish I had gone round instead of oval when I did mine (the thought didn't even cross my mind, and I just ordered and installed direct size matches for OEM). With my subwoofer installed I'm having a hell of a time finding a good balance between reasonable bass at low volumes and being just overwhelming when loud. There's no shortage of power or bass, but getting the right amount at the right time is proving to be a challenge.

While I am very happy with the speakers, it isn't directly comparable to your setup since I am powering them with the Craig, and my cleanest input signal is coming from an FM modulator. A new head unit or even soldering in a AUX input would clean things up more. Still haven't ordered the amp, I have a sub that currently isn't powered so I need one, but would like to get your opinion on it after hearing what I have today.

[aipri]

I'm about half way through my setup. My tweeters are mounted in the factory front location in the dash, and the mids would be good to go too if I wasn't still waiting on DMC-CA to send me their kick panel enclosures for the front, its been about 3 weeks now I think. Then we can begin building the custom amp rack and sub enclosure on the rear parcel shelf, very excited for that.

[kobachi]

I can't wait to hear David P's setup with the round speakers in the back. I'm starting to wish I had gone round instead of oval when I did mine (the thought didn't even cross my mind, and I just ordered and installed direct size matches for OEM). With my subwoofer installed I'm having a hell of a time finding a good balance between reasonable bass at low volumes and being just overwhelming when loud. There's no shortage of power or bass, but getting the right amount at the right time is proving to be a challenge.
Do you have HPFs on your ovals and an LPF on your sub? This makes a big difference.

[jawn101]

Do you have HPFs on your ovals and an LPF on your sub? This makes a big difference.

Yep, sure do. There'd be no way to get decent sound at all without that :) The problem is that the filters do make sure all the low frequency signals do go to the sub, but the variable sensitivity and filters directly on the amp are tricky. I did a full set of calibrations with an inline spectrum analyzer, voltmeter and fixed frequency/sweeping test tones and dialed it in as best I could, but striking that balance between response at low volumes and distortion at high ones is tough with the 4 main speakers producing absolutely 0 bass. If there was something - anything - coming from those rears, I could lower the sensitivity on the sub and the problem would be more or less solved.

[kobachi]

I'm starting to wish I had gone round instead of oval when I did mine (the thought didn't even cross my mind, and I just ordered and installed direct size matches for OEM).

Oh, just noticed this part. Yup, you're going to have a hard time with 4x10s in the stock location. I snipped the wires on mine and never gave them another thought.

[AirmanPika]

I'm doing a preliminary functionality test on the amp since I doubt it has been used for some time and it's snowing hard outside right now. I have it wired into my home theater setup and am using my telescope's battery pack to power it. Hell I'm half tempted to use it as my house amp as it sounds great.

http://reimuchan.com/batterypoweredmcintosh.jpg

[AirmanPika]

Oh and secondary Q, would a capacitor be advisable? My alternator pushes 130-150W (not sure exactly, its a delco) and my battery is overspec also but with the amp pushing 100wx4 I dunno if it will put a strain on the electrical system when in use. I'll also have a secondary subwoofer amp pushing the 8" sub.

[Tomcio]

would a capacitor be advisable?
There's no simple yes/no answer. The need for a capacitor depends on the condition of your electrical and ignition systems. It also depends on the length of the power supply leads to the amp. The further away from the battery it is the grater the chances of noise being introduced from other electrical components of the car. The battery acts as a smoothing filter/capacitor so it's a good idea to use short thick wires to power the amp.
Condition of the alternator and battery plays a major role here.


My alternator pushes 130-150W (not sure exactly, its a delco) and my battery is overspec also but with the amp pushing 100wx4 I dunno if it will put a strain on the electrical system when in use. I'll also have a secondary subwoofer amp pushing the 8" sub.
I believe you mean the alternator pushes 130-150A as in amps. If you have a stock setup with this alternator getting anything more than about 110-120A would be a LOT! Single V belt can't really transfer this much power to the alternator without starting to slip. I did some experimenting on this subject and at about 110A the tension required on the belt to keep it from slipping is so great that it's at the limit of what the belt can take. So, it will either slip or snap. That's why high power alternators use multi-groove belts. Anyway...
100W pushed into 4 ohm speaker comes to 5A. With all four channels coming up to 20A. Keep in mind that music is never at constant max power. Depending on the type of music that you like and volume level at which you will listen to it I would say that 5A average power would be a fair guess (and deafening). With everything else, all losses in the power supply and everything else and to play it safe, you can think of it as a maximum 10A average load. Even if your alternator puts out 110-120A you will be perfectly fine.
I'm not familiar with this amp but is it a true 400W unit? If it is then you have nothing to worry about if your electrical system is in good working order.

PS. Damn, I'm turning into a real nerd ;)

[rdarlington]

Actually there is a simple answer, and that answer is no.

http://fatfist.hubpages.com/hub/Car-Audio-CAPACITORS-Why-They-DONT-Work

[Tomcio]

Actually there is a simple answer, and that answer is no.

I wouldn't be so quick with a simple "no" answer here.
Please note that I mentioned "noise" in the electrical system. For that the capacitor works as a filter and reduces noise. If your electrical and ignition systems (as I mentioned) are not in good working order you might have some alternator "whine" or ignition spikes. If the amp doesn't have good filters built in you will hear that noise over the speakers. In those cases a capacitor will definitely work and will help filter out the noise.

[Malevy]

For some reason, I am subscribed to this thread??

But, anyway- IMHO, that capacitor article is misleading and their conclusions are wrong.. Capacitors are in parallel with the power to the amplifier, so any internal resistance of capacitor is irrelevant. There is no way it "takes" power from the amplifier. The purpose of the capacitor is to maintain the voltage when the current demand of the amplifier spikes beyond the capabilities of the car's electrical system. For that instant of time when the bass hits, a fraction of a second later when the power demand drops, the capacitor recharges with the excess being supplied from the alternator. It is a long standing audiophile modification to any amplifier to add capacitors to the power supply in order to increase "headroom", reducing distortion when the limits of the power supply are reached. In a car amplifier, it would be more effective to add the capacitors internally after the DC to DC power supply, but most people are not about to crack the case open and solder in extra capacitors (assuming there is space for them, typically not in a car amplifier).

The ideal situation would be to have enough power available such that the limits are never reached (eliminating the need for the capacitors), but when building a high power system in a car we have the limits of the car's electrical system to deal with.

I had to add a capacitor in my DMC because when the bass was pumping, the ECU would cause the AFR to go way lean. The voltage fluctuating messed with the reference voltage on the sensors (I am running a VQ engine, not PRV). It made a big difference, but I also had to add some thicker wires for various electrical grounds on the car, and the wire from the alternator to the battery had to be upgraded.

Noise is usually from open grounds, or ground loops. It is rare that a "noise filter" (or capacitor) on the power supply line will fix various electrical noises (most common is alternator wine). Some filters that use coils (or, "chokes") are helpful at reducing noise from the ignition system.. But modern resistor plugs and ignition wires have made that problem less common.

[rdarlington]

I don't see anything wrong with the article. Nothing that doesn't jive with all those EE courses I took anyway. I actually design amplifiers and got into an argument with those audiophools that think they know anything about audio engineering. You know, the guys willing to drop $2500 on a power cord because that OFHC copper wire somehow filters out line noise from the 37 miles of copper on the other side of their outlet. My background is in designing ultrasound amplifiers for the local national laboratory here in Los Alamos for the materials research guys. This requires distortion in only vertical amplitude and anything else is undesirable. I'm told that this kind of amplification makes music sound bad. I argue that it's the original recording that sounds bad because all I'm doing is making it louder. I do a lot more than that , but that's just one specialty. For shits and grins, I built a few audio amps. Silicon and tube based to round out my experience a bit. Tubes add distortion that does sound pleasing to the ear. I studied the psychology of the audiophool. I measured the high end speaker cables and compared to the same measurements done on coat hangers (using my Agilent 8712ES vector network analyzer). I've tried to do blind studies but they all refuse. They know their ears can't possibly hear a difference.

So, to address the cap mod and everything else above, it's in their head.

-Bob


For some reason, I am subscribed to this thread??

But, anyway- IMHO, that capacitor article is misleading and their conclusions are wrong.. Capacitors are in parallel with the power to the amplifier, so any internal resistance of capacitor is irrelevant. There is no way it "takes" power from the amplifier. The purpose of the capacitor is to maintain the voltage when the current demand of the amplifier spikes beyond the capabilities of the car's electrical system. For that instant of time when the bass hits, a fraction of a second later when the power demand drops, the capacitor recharges with the excess being supplied from the alternator. It is a long standing audiophile modification to any amplifier to add capacitors to the power supply in order to increase "headroom", reducing distortion when the limits of the power supply are reached. In a car amplifier, it would be more effective to add the capacitors internally after the DC to DC power supply, but most people are not about to crack the case open and solder in extra capacitors (assuming there is space for them, typically not in a car amplifier).

The ideal situation would be to have enough power available such that the limits are never reached (eliminating the need for the capacitors), but when building a high power system in a car we have the limits of the car's electrical system to deal with.

I had to add a capacitor in my DMC because when the bass was pumping, the ECU would cause the AFR to go way lean. The voltage fluctuating messed with the reference voltage on the sensors (I am running a VQ engine, not PRV). It made a big difference, but I also had to add some thicker wires for various electrical grounds on the car, and the wire from the alternator to the battery had to be upgraded.

Noise is usually from open grounds, or ground loops. It is rare that a "noise filter" (or capacitor) on the power supply line will fix various electrical noises (most common is alternator wine). Some filters that use coils (or, "chokes") are helpful at reducing noise from the ignition system.. But modern resistor plugs and ignition wires have made that problem less common.

[Malevy]

Starting my career at Bell Labs, with lots of experience in analog, digital, and RF design.. I respectfully disagree.

If the input voltage to the amplifier drops, the power output will too-- and if it is being pushed to it's limits, it will distort. A better power supply will eliminate the need for the capacitors, but will be a lot more expensive.

[dmruschell]

For some reason, I am subscribed to this thread??

But, anyway- IMHO, that capacitor article is misleading and their conclusions are wrong.. Capacitors are in parallel with the power to the amplifier, so any internal resistance of capacitor is irrelevant. There is no way it "takes" power from the amplifier. The purpose of the capacitor is to maintain the voltage when the current demand of the amplifier spikes beyond the capabilities of the car's electrical system. For that instant of time when the bass hits, a fraction of a second later when the power demand drops, the capacitor recharges with the excess being supplied from the alternator. It is a long standing audiophile modification to any amplifier to add capacitors to the power supply in order to increase "headroom", reducing distortion when the limits of the power supply are reached. In a car amplifier, it would be more effective to add the capacitors internally after the DC to DC power supply, but most people are not about to crack the case open and solder in extra capacitors (assuming there is space for them, typically not in a car amplifier).

The ideal situation would be to have enough power available such that the limits are never reached (eliminating the need for the capacitors), but when building a high power system in a car we have the limits of the car's electrical system to deal with.

I had to add a capacitor in my DMC because when the bass was pumping, the ECU would cause the AFR to go way lean. The voltage fluctuating messed with the reference voltage on the sensors (I am running a VQ engine, not PRV). It made a big difference, but I also had to add some thicker wires for various electrical grounds on the car, and the wire from the alternator to the battery had to be upgraded.

Noise is usually from open grounds, or ground loops. It is rare that a "noise filter" (or capacitor) on the power supply line will fix various electrical noises (most common is alternator wine). Some filters that use coils (or, "chokes") are helpful at reducing noise from the ignition system.. But modern resistor plugs and ignition wires have made that problem less common.

^What he said. A kick drum sound takes a lot more electricity to produce than the rest of the music. But, the kick drum isn't produced constantly (unless you're a metal head like me lol). If the electrical system can keep up with the average demand of the sound system, but the voltage sees a momentary dip when a kick drum (or similar sound) is produced, a capacitor will supply the needed momentary electricity needed to keep the audio from distorting and the car from malfunctioning. Because the car's electrical system can keep up with the average demand, it can recharge the capacitor for the next time it's needed.

[rdarlington]

That is not true. That's not at all what capacitors do. You will be limited to the voltage supplied by the power supply, and in this case the limiting factor will be the battery & alternator combo.

[rdarlington]

12 years here at Los Alamos National Lab doing much the same thing, including pulsed megawatt RF sources for accelerators and the like (among other things).

-Bob


Starting my career at Bell Labs, with lots of experience in analog, digital, and RF design.. I respectfully disagree.

If the input voltage to the amplifier drops, the power output will too-- and if it is being pushed to it's limits, it will distort. A better power supply will eliminate the need for the capacitors, but will be a lot more expensive.

[DMCMW Dave]

^What he said. A kick drum sound takes a lot more electricity to produce than the rest of the music. But, the kick drum isn't produced constantly (unless you're a metal head like me lol). If the electrical system can keep up with the average demand of the sound system, but the voltage sees a momentary dip when a kick drum (or similar sound) is produced, a capacitor will supply the needed momentary electricity needed to keep the audio from distorting and the car from malfunctioning. Because the car's electrical system can keep up with the average demand, it can recharge the capacitor for the next time it's needed.

Explain why putting a tiny battery (the capacitor) in parallel with a big battery (the car battery) without a resistor in between them has any impact at all.

[dmruschell]

According to Crutchfield (http://www.crutchfield.com/S-DZJ5cmpeLvL/learn/learningcenter/car/capacitors/faq.html), the resistor is only used for initially charging the capacitor and is then removed. Now I'm going to let the experts sort this one out.

[Bitsyncmaster]

According to Crutchfield (http://www.crutchfield.com/S-DZJ5cmpeLvL/learn/learningcenter/car/capacitors/faq.html), the resistor is only used for initially charging the capacitor and is then removed. Now I'm going to let the experts sort this one out.

This is an old trick to bring an old (sitting on the shelf a long time) electrolytic capacitor back to life. It "forms" the layers of foil and insulation back to normal. We use to do it attaching a variable power supply and slowly cranking up the voltage over a few hours to the capacitors rated voltage. A resistor would do the same but less controlled.

The usefulness of adding a capacitor depends on the capacitors resistance (best is very low) and the resistance of the wiring from the capacitor going back to the battery. So poor wiring in the car would make the capacitor do more as designed. But what I see with these big amps is #6 AWG wire running right to the battery. In that case, the capacitor will do nothing to help.

[rdarlington]

This is an old trick to bring an old (sitting on the shelf a long time) electrolytic capacitor back to life. It "forms" the layers of foil and insulation back to normal. We use to do it attaching a variable power supply and slowly cranking up the voltage over a few hours to the capacitors rated voltage. A resistor would do the same but less controlled.
<snip>

That's what my Sencore Z-meter is for ;-)

But yah, the old trick is to bring the voltage up slowly to reform them. I learned the hard way with old equipment and now use variacs the first time (usually old tube based test equipment I restore).

-Bob

[Malevy]

Are you actually arguing that a capacitor in parallel with a load does not smooth out transitions in voltage?

Either way, I don't have to rely on the perception of my ears to tell me the capacitor is doing its job- I can see it in my AFR readings.

[Malevy]

Explain why putting a tiny battery (the capacitor) in parallel with a big battery (the car battery) without a resistor in between them has any impact at all.

Actually, there is a resistor- the wire between the battery and the amplifier.

(for example) 10 feet of 8 AWG wire will have a 1/2 volt drop at 40A.

1/2 volt may not seem like much on the input of the supply, but (depending on the internal power supply design of your amplifier) that "loss" is multiplied internally because the actual "rail voltage" of the amplifier is much higher.

[rdarlington]

Are you actually arguing that a capacitor in parallel with a load does not smooth out transitions in voltage?

Either way, I don't have to rely on the perception of my ears to tell me the capacitor is doing its job- I can see it in my AFR readings.

No, that's not what I'm arguing. I'm saying the capacitor isn't boosting the power to your amp.

[Malevy]

I never claimed it "boosted" the power..

Maybe this will explain it better; https://www.parts-express.com/resources-stiffening-capacitors-faqs

[rdarlington]

Yes yes, I'm aware of that page and that theory and that it's bunk. I'm officially giving up and will no longer comment on this. It's not worth it to me.

[aipri]

Looking forward to installing the 1 farad Monster Cable cap I have with my system soon. I'm sure it will work well as they always have. :hihi:

[Malevy]

Theory? Bunk? :rolleyes1:

Even if you cant *hear* the improvement with the addition of a capacitor, you can clearly see the difference with a simple test- Hook up a DVM (with the ability to hold min/max) to your car, and see how much the voltage drops while a high power amplifier driving a low impedance woofer at 500W (or more). Install a large capacitor, and repeat the test. You WILL see a difference (if you do the test correctly). If you think the difference is "in the noise", take the amplifier apart and repeat the test monitoring the rail voltage inside the amplifier. I have a feeling after you do this test, you will want to hook up some stiffening capacitors directly to the rail inside the amp.

Reminds me of when I started out as a tech at Bell-Labs, I had an argument with one of the senior engineers who said "Audio is AC, so polarity does not matter", and made a wager that I could not hear the difference. I bet him that *HE COULD* hear the difference. It was not until I set up an experiment in the lab, with a switch for him to do an A-B comparison of "in phase" and "out of phase" for him to admit he was wrong. I won the bet.

At my age, I doubt I could hear the difference with/without a stiffening capacitor- but I know it is saving my alternator (and electrical system in general) from unneeded abuse from my audio system.. Funny enough, I have "big systems" in 3 of my cars but only have the capacitor in the DeLorean (because of the ECU issues I mentioned).. So, on the way home last night I was blasting the crap out of the system in my BMW and could clearly see the headlights dim with every pound of the woofers. Maybe time for me to add a capacitor!

[AirmanPika]

Thanks for the feedback, though I think the discussion strayed a bit. Having been working on vintage home stereo gear I do understand the principals behind the cap. My concern was would I put too much load on the power supply the car itself is supplying when you factor in everything else. Tomcio answered most of that for me (and yes I mean 130A, thank you). What I was worried about was seeing things like brownouts, dimming lights and so on should the amp actually push close to its max 400W output (unlikely but I'm thinking ahead, and again to Tomcio, yea it would be a true 400Ws). For now I think I'll skip the cap and just go with the raw setup.

Otherwise I finally fixed the amp. I installed the new terminal block (it was fried from some past catastrophe and bypassed) and did a final inspection. All is good and functional so I did a quick fit test tonight and to my delight the parcel shelf is comfortably deep enough for the amp. I was thinking it might be a tad too narrow but that isn't the case. It will be warm(ish) tomorrow so I may try and get this thing wired in finally.

http://reimuchan.com/delorean/mcintoshdeloreanfit.jpg

[AirmanPika]

Got everything hooked up though I still need to work out some of the cable routing to make it neat. I came across a tiny Alpine KTP-445U head unit amp while grabbing parts and decided to try it out as a sub amp.

25010

It's super small and since I'm only pushing one channel (it can only be bridged down to 90x2W so I'm just doing 90W to the sub) it should be OK sealed up inside the subwoofer cubby. If it doesn't work out I'll get that small Rockford Fosgate 300x1W amp which should also fit, but I dunno how it will like enclosed spaces with no ventilation.

25011

I just want to complement the lows, not shake the car apart (it does that fine on its own).

[Malevy]

That tiny Alpine amplifier with no heat sinks is rated at 90W @ 2 ohm?? Must be at 10% THD.. :)

Looks like you have no enclosure around your woofer. This will for sure hurt the quality of the sound.

[papanoel]

Does anyone know if the Infinity Kappa 52.11i will fit as well as the 529i?
The 529i is discontinued. Seems like the specs match up between the two in terms of dimensions.

[kobachi]

Does anyone know if the Infinity Kappa 52.11i will fit as well as the 529i?
The 529i is discontinued. Seems like the specs match up between the two in terms of dimensions.

The first half (52) is the size (5.25"), the second half (9i and 11i) is the model year (2009/2011). These two have very similar dimensions but one is listed as 4-Ohm and the other as 2-Ohm. In reality they're probably both 2-Ohm and Infinity branded them differently (their whole "true 4-Ohm" silliness).

[papanoel]

The first half (52) is the size (5.25"), the second half (9i and 11i) is the model year (2009/2011). These two have very similar dimensions but one is listed as 4-Ohm and the other as 2-Ohm. In reality they're probably both 2-Ohm and Infinity branded them differently (their whole "true 4-Ohm" silliness).

So it seems on paper it should just work like the 529s do. I guess only one way to really find out.

I like that the 52.11i doesn't have that crossover dongle.25170

[kobachi]

So it seems on paper it should just work like the 529s do. I guess only one way to really find out.

I like that the 52.11i doesn't have that crossover dongle.25170

Why? Manufacturer-designed and supplied crossovers are always your friend.

[papanoel]

Why? Manufacturer-designed and supplied crossovers are always your friend.

isn't the crossover on an amplifier more than sufficient?

[kobachi]

isn't the crossover on an amplifier more than sufficient?

In a word, no. For two big reasons.

First, crossovers from manufacturers are designed to perfectly match the acoustical performance of the speakers they come with. Speaker companies do advanced testing on each model and match the crossover closely to that specific speaker model. Anyone without that kind of professional research equipment would be unable to match the performance of the OEM-included crossover.

Second, on multi-cone speakers like these, the OEM crossover is designed to separate the appropriate frequencies to the tweeter and the cone. If you were to remove it, you would either need to add two crossovers for each cone, or you would get sub-optimal results by attempting to use one crossover for two very difference frequency response ranges.

The crossover on your amp serves a different and important but very narrow purpose -- it's designed to help you remove subwoofer frequencies if you're using one.

[papanoel]

In a word, no. For two big reasons.

First, crossovers from manufacturers are designed to perfectly match the acoustical performance of the speakers they come with. Speaker companies do advanced testing on each model and match the crossover closely to that specific speaker model. Anyone without that kind of professional research equipment would be unable to match the performance of the OEM-included crossover.

Second, on multi-cone speakers like these, the OEM crossover is designed to separate the appropriate frequencies to the tweeter and the cone. If you were to remove it, you would either need to add two crossovers for each cone, or you would get sub-optimal results by attempting to use one crossover for two very difference frequency response ranges.

The crossover on your amp serves a different and important but very narrow purpose -- it's designed to help you remove subwoofer frequencies if you're using one.

so if the manufacture knows the sweetspot for the crossover on the speaker why should i mess with it? I guess to adjust for the surroundings?

I get that finer control is important but to me that dongle is another thing that might start rattling in the car.

[kobachi]

so if the manufacture knows the sweetspot for the crossover on the speaker why should i mess with it? I guess to adjust for the surroundings?

I get that finer control is important but to me that dongle is another thing that might start rattling in the car.

You probably don't need to mess with it. The manufacturer already did all the hard work, and they likely did a better job than any of us amateurs ever could. In this case, the dongle likely contains /multiple/ crossovers for each speaker (the larger cone and the inner tweeter). (Disclaimer: I added an additional 300Hz HPF on my 3.5" Kappas because they thud too muddy with any bass.)

[dmruschell]

Every multi-cone speaker (including component systems) have passive crossovers, either in a dongle, or built into the speaker chassis and hidden. Either way, it has a crossover.

Some old home stereo speakers just had passive bass blockers on the tweeters and sent the full range to the woofer, which wouldn't be able to produce the high frequencies anyways. It was crude, but it worked. Those same style passive bass blockers are also sold to use on smaller car speakers and are useful if the amp/head unit does not have built in filters.

The crossovers in car amplifiers or head units serve the purpose of the passive bass blockers, but occur BEFORE the line-level signal is amplified (and are called active filters/crossovers), whereas the pass bass blockers filter AFTER the signal is amplified. Most of the time, either is fine, but in high fidelity systems, there can be a slight improvement in sound quality by using separate active crossovers. If an amp is only going to be driving speakers producing mid range and highs, then the active filter will save the amp the trouble of amplifying the bass by filtering it out before the map ever sees it. If a multi-cone speaker has different inputs for bass and treble, with a different amp driving the bass and treble using signals from active crossovers, this is called bi-amping.

As far as I know, there aren't treble blockers, so the only way to put a low pass filter on a speakers (like a sub, for example) is by using an active filter in an amp or head unit.

EDIT: I just wanted to add that passive crossovers/bass blockers are usually not adjustable, whereas active crossovers/filters are usually adjustable to some extent, depending on what options the amp/crossover have.

[kobachi]

As far as I know, there aren't treble blockers, so the only way to put a low pass filter on a speakers (like a sub, for example) is by using an active filter in an amp or head unit.


Oh but there are :) They are called passive low-pass filters and for first-order filters, they use a simple induction coil, similar to how a high-pass filter uses a simple capacitor.

[dmruschell]

Oh but there are :) They are called passive low-pass filters and for first-order filters, they use a simple induction coil, similar to how a high-pass filter uses a simple capacitor.

Well, I learned something new today :) I guess it makes sense, with multi-cone speakers having passive crossovers; I've just never seen them for sale. I've never actually looked for one, either lol.

[rdarlington]

Analog filter design for audio is pretty simple. There are tons of free software packages out there to help design them and I bet several websites where you just plug in values of what you want and out pop a schematic with parts, similar to this one: http://www.analog.com/designtools/en/filterwizard/#/type

[aipri]

So I finally received my kick panel speaker enclosures from DMC-CA after waiting 2 months. They are decent quality for the price. The driver side definitely fits much better than the passenger side though as there is a bit of a gap. I'll probably have to screw it in somehow to push it farther back, have to figure out how to do that without it looking horrible. Just figured I would share some thoughts. I'll update again once I get my amp hooked up and actually get some sound. For the record I have the woofer from a Boston Acoustics 6.5 Pro component set mounted in there. I have the tweeter mounted up in the dash where the factory speaker was.

256222562325624256252562625627

[papanoel]

So I finally received my kick panel speaker enclosures from DMC-CA after waiting 2 months. They are decent quality for the price. The driver side definitely fits much better than the passenger side though as there is a bit of a gap. I'll probably have to screw it in somehow to push it farther back, have to figure out how to do that without it looking horrible. Just figured I would share some thoughts. I'll update again once I get my amp hooked up and actually get some sound. For the record I have the woofer from a Boston Acoustics 6.5 Pro component set mounted in there. I have the tweeter mounted up in the dash where the factory speaker was.

256222562325624256252562625627

With my big feet i'd destroy a speaker first time i sit in teh car after installing this.

[dmruschell]

So I finally received my kick panel speaker enclosures from DMC-CA after waiting 2 months. They are decent quality for the price. The driver side definitely fits much better than the passenger side though as there is a bit of a gap. I'll probably have to screw it in somehow to push it farther back, have to figure out how to do that without it looking horrible. Just figured I would share some thoughts. I'll update again once I get my amp hooked up and actually get some sound. For the record I have the woofer from a Boston Acoustics 6.5 Pro component set mounted in there. I have the tweeter mounted up in the dash where the factory speaker was.

256222562325624256252562625627

I know the amps are hooked up, as I've heard the system, so where is the update? :P

[penciltester]

Has anyone replaced the original speakers with JL Audio speakers? Any installation problems? How did they sound?

Thanks

[Rich_NYS]

Sorry if this was covered & I missed it:

I got the Infinity Kappa 52.9i's for the rear and haven't yet done anything except open the box and look at the speakers. -I'm assuming the covers included aren't used for the installation....is that correct?

I'm not at all non-technical, but this is my first time installing speakers so I could use a little guidance.

[jawn101]

Sorry if this was covered & I missed it:

I got the Infinity Kappa 52.9i's for the rear and haven't yet done anything except open the box and look at the speakers. -I'm assuming the covers included aren't used for the installation....is that correct?

I'm not at all non-technical, but this is my first time installing speakers so I could use a little guidance.

No, no covers needed. Those are only for surface mount applications - like a custom enclosure.

[Rich_NYS]

No, no covers needed. Those are only for surface mount applications - like a custom enclosure.

Thanks! Also,

I need to block off the holes that are outside the perimeter of the speakers, right?

[jawn101]

Thanks! Also,

I need to block off the holes that are outside the perimeter of the speakers, right?

Which holes? The ones in the trim panel? Or do you mean the ones through the body tub to the outside world? Either way the answer is no.

[Rich_NYS]

Which holes? The ones in the trim panel? Or do you mean the ones through the body tub to the outside world? Either way the answer is no.

Trim panel; I thought it helps with the sound quality....my mistake.

Thanks for the info!

[NightFlyer]

Thanks! Also,

I need to block off the holes that are outside the perimeter of the speakers, right?

In theory, what you want to do is get as tight of seal of the speaker flange to the panel as possible (air tight, like a gasketed flush mounting would create - I like using a thin squishy foam for this type of an install, bonded to both the panel and the mounting flange of the speaker. Then you want to baffle with something that's sound reflective (plastic, plywood, etc), and not insulating, between the fiberglass body tub and the panel around the inner air chamber of the speaker/driver - usually you look at the speakers specs and it should have a recommended interior air enclosure number for optimal/maximum response, and then figure out what baffling diameter you need based upon the depth of the enclosure that you're working with - in this case, the amount of space between the panel and the fiberglass tub. A 5.25" driver typically achieves optimal low end frequency response with somewhere around .55 cubic feet. In theory, doing this will also act to tighten up mid-bass responsiveness and response times across the spectrum from bass to mid range levels (or where-ever the coaxial is crossed over at).

You also want to seal any holes in the fiberglass body tub that's making up the rear wall of the speaker's inner air chamber. Doing this allows for as close to a sealed install as possible, which should increase the low end response that the speaker/driver produces. The vent hole in the fiberglass (if your car has it - originally to equalize air pressure so that closing the doors wouldn't push the windows off their mountings, filled in on later cars as practice showed that the cars weren't built as tightly as originally anticipated by the engineers) could potentially make for a decent (even if not an optimal or even tuned) port, which would extend the low end frequency response via reverberation of the woofer's movement and the slight delay created by such which compounds the audible effect - of course, while this may achieve a lower audible frequency response from the driver, it's also going to slightly reduce the driver's responsiveness. Thus, if you value tightness and controlled lows, go with as close to a sealed enclosure as possible, but if you like the extended low end frequency response and don't mind giving up a little responsiveness to achieve it, then go for the 'ported' setup.

Like I previously said - this is all theoretical. There's really no good way of knowing how much of an audible difference doing all this will yield vs just a slap in install using the factory brackets, or if such an effort is worth it. BUT, when you consider that it's primarily the quality of the mounting in how modern car systems are able to achieve some pretty deep lows from 5.25" and 6.5" door speakers/drivers, it may make it worth such an experimental effort to you.

I'll be experimenting with different setups this winter when I get around to upgrading my speakers - whether you want to or not is solely up to you.

Best luck! :thumbup:

[Rich_NYS]

Mounting the Infinity Kappa 52.9i's speakers in the rear, they fit kinda loosley in the speaker mounts. There's a band clamp, but doesn't seem like it'll tighten down enough. Anyone here use those speakers and have some input?

Also, which way should the tweeter be pointing?

Thanks for any help....this is my first car speaker install.

[jawn101]

Mounting the Infinity Kappa 52.9i's speakers in the rear, they fit kinda loosley in the speaker mounts. There's a band clamp, but doesn't seem like it'll tighten down enough. Anyone here use those speakers and have some input?

Also, which way should the tweeter be pointing?

Thanks for any help....this is my first car speaker install.

The clamp will get tight enough. You may have to bend the little fingers on the bracket inward a bit. If all else fails just go to the hardware store and get a smaller clamp. The Kappa speakers can't have much smaller magnets than the Craigs though.

Tweeter should be facing... Out? Not sure what you mean by which way. Got a pic?

[Rich_NYS]

The clamp will get tight enough. You may have to bend the little fingers on the bracket inward a bit. If all else fails just go to the hardware store and get a smaller clamp. The Kappa speakers can't have much smaller magnets than the Craigs though.

Tweeter should be facing... Out? Not sure what you mean by which way. Got a pic?

Thanks Jon,

The speaker has a pivotal tweeter; it can be pointed in a specific direction, I'll get a pic in the AM. I was thinking I should aim the passenger side tweeter toward the drivers' side & vice versa.

[NightFlyer]

Thanks Jon,

The speaker has a pivotal tweeter; it can be pointed in a specific direction, I'll get a pic in the AM. I was thinking I should aim the passenger side tweeter toward the drivers' side & vice versa.

The ideal places to aim the tweeters would be at the opposing door's window - passenger side speaker is aimed at driver's door window, driver's side speaker is aimed at passenger's door window.

[Rich_NYS]

The clamp will get tight enough. You may have to bend the little fingers on the bracket inward a bit. If all else fails just go to the hardware store and get a smaller clamp. The Kappa speakers can't have much smaller magnets than the Craigs though.


Here's a pic that shows bracket is a bit too big: 27767

I think I need some type of spacer. When the clamp is tghtened beyond a certain point (before contacting the magnet,) it slips off the tabs.

[NightFlyer]

Here's a pic that shows bracket is a bit too big: 27767

I think I need some type of spacer. When the clamp is tghtened beyond a certain point (before contacting the magnet,) it slips off the tabs.

You could glue some squishy foam onto the bracket.

[nkemp]

Three blocks of wood, plastic metal, about equally spaced would do the trick. Use a bit of two sided tape to hold in place while you tighten or you'll drive yourself nuts trying to keep all the parts together until tight.

[Rich_NYS]

Good ideas...thanks.

[gulwng3]

I'm replacing my binnacle soon and want to upgrade my front speakers. What's the latest and greatest for a no-hassle replacement? For now, I'll just use the existing wiring and factory radio.

Thanks,
Andy

[nkemp]

Read this to simplify front speaker installations: http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?8110-Front-speaker-replacement-made-easy

[kobachi]

I'm replacing my binnacle soon and want to upgrade my front speakers. What's the latest and greatest for a no-hassle replacement? For now, I'll just use the existing wiring and factory radio.

Thanks,
Andy

Replacing the front speakers is essentially pointless if you don't replace the radio as well. The stock radio does not have anything close to enough power to drive modern speakers, and it lacks the quality to make investing in a speaker upgrade worth it. Finally, it would be a very bad idea electrically, because the stock radio uses a common ground for fore and for aft, which modern speakers are not designed for.

[gulwng3]

BTW, what is the amp output on an original DMC radio?

Andy

[DMCMW Dave]

BTW, what is the amp output on an original DMC radio?

Andy

Tiny.

[NightFlyer]

BTW, what is the amp output on an original DMC radio?

Andy

Don't quote me, but I believe the Craig's amps are rated at 15W each - whether that's an RMS or Max power spec, I haven't a clue.

[Domi]

I have take a look at the Craig owner's manual but the power isn't written.

[alexwolf1216]

So, has there been any consensus of a relatively easy speaker choice since the Infinity are no longer available?

[NightFlyer]

So, has there been any consensus of a relatively easy speaker choice since the Infinity are no longer available?

No community consensus like the Infinity's enjoyed.

Best bang for the buck in the stock locations currently on the market IMHO are the Polk db series.

If you're looking for marginally higher performance, but still want a coaxial, and are willing to pay for it, then Focal, Helix, or Hertz, otherwise you'd be better off going with components and a custom install.

I'm was considering running single cone full range speakers in the stock locations in my car, as opposed to automotive specific coaxials or components, just to see what it would sound like, but never made any progress with that project.

Now, I want to try re-coning, re-surrounding, re-winding the voice coils, and upgrading the magnets on the stock Craigs, seeing as how that would be the best option for my car. I'd still like to do something to increase low-end response, such as a sub-woofer, but it'd have to be fully and easily removable.

[vps3922]

Received my set of Infinity Kappa 52.9i and JBL 328. Both available at Sonic Electronics (hope I am allowed to post that). They have their own website or sell through eBay.
They also do not have the Kappa 32.9i anymore. Very sad! Would have loved to get them.

[vps3922]

... much debris in my eyes.

OMG! Yep, so do I from removing mine yesterday and prefitting the JBL GTO328. Still have to bend the latches properly.

[MML]

One of my front speakers finally shat itself, so I'm looking for good replacements. I saw the Kicker KS35's mentioned earlier in the thread, and I think I'll order a set. My question is, are they a direct drop-in replacement? I have zero experience with in-car audio so I'm not 100% sure if you need to do any rewiring or anything like that.
I only listen to the radio once in a blue moon, so I'm not looking for anything expensive or top of the range. Basically just something that "will do". There's a set of Kickers on Ebay at the minute for a decent price.

The rears could probably do with replacing but they're not a priority. I also plan on keeping the Craig. After all the work I had done to it, it ain't going anywhere!

[NightFlyer]

One of my front speakers finally shat itself, so I'm looking for good replacements. I saw the Kicker KS35's mentioned earlier in the thread, and I think I'll order a set. My question is, are they a direct drop-in replacement? I have zero experience with in-car audio so I'm not 100% sure if you need to do any rewiring or anything like that.
I only listen to the radio once in a blue moon, so I'm not looking for anything expensive or top of the range. Basically just something that "will do". There's a set of Kickers on Ebay at the minute for a decent price.

The rears could probably do with replacing but they're not a priority. I also plan on keeping the Craig. After all the work I had done to it, it ain't going anywhere!

Those should work just fine and install with minimal effort (relatively speaking). No re-wiring required.

[DMCMW Dave]

Those should work just fine and install with minimal effort (relatively speaking). No re-wiring required.

You have to bend the brackets or you will push up the center of the dash pad holes and crack the dash. The tweeter sticks out more than the original.

[MML]

Excellent - thanks guys! Just ordered them.
The worst thing about replacing them is having to crawl under the frickin' dash :tongue:

[RoyHinkley]

MML-make sure you use protective goggles! That dash foam sheds off with just the slightest touch.

[MML]

MML-make sure you use protective goggles! That dash foam sheds off with just the slightest touch.

Cheers Roy, will do; I found that out the hard way once :tongue:

[MML]

So these arrived today...

http://i.imgur.com/8rjMUDc.jpg

[alexwolf1216]

I got my Polk installed in the front. It was a BEAR!!! even with spacers....yuck......Im scared to do the rears in fear of damaging my panels...

[Jonathan]

So these arrived today...

http://i.imgur.com/8rjMUDc.jpg

Martin,

Have you tried to put these in yet?

I have them installed on my car. There were no changes needed for the wiring connections, but physically getting them attached to the threaded posts on the underside of the dash was challenging. I could not get the tabs to bend the way they needed to on this particular set of speakers. I ended up making a set of small brackets out of some odds and ends from the hardware store's fasteners department. You can also use the threaded extensions as mentioned here if you can get your hands on some.

[MML]

There were no changes needed for the wiring connections, but physically getting them attached to the threaded posts on the underside of the dash was challenging.

Oh man. Tell me about it. I've spent way too long trying to get the nuts on to the studs. It took a couple of hours yesterday to get the driver's side one in. I spent so long upside down under the dash, I thought I would need a chiropractor! Access is a total nightmare, you don't have much room to work.
I started the passenger side tonight, the old speaker was easy to remove... getting the new one in is another story! I have one nut on, the other isn't playing ball at all. Every time you try to line up the nut it flies towards the speaker magnet,

As for bending the lugs, I did it with pliers - lining the holes up to the Craig's lugs was the important thing. As Dave said above the tweeter sticks out further than the original, so be careful not to push out the dash.

Another thing I did was cut off the old connectors - they slid off the terminals very easily. I just soldered on the new ones that came in the box, they clip on way more tightly.

[Notifier]

Oh man. Tell me about it. I've spent way too long trying to get the nuts on to the studs. It took a couple of hours yesterday to get the driver's side one in. I spent so long upside down under the dash, I thought I would need a chiropractor! Access is a total nightmare, you don't have much room to work.
I started the passenger side tonight, the old speaker was easy to remove... getting the new one in is another story! I have one nut on, the other isn't playing ball at all. Every time you try to line up the nut it flies towards the speaker magnet,

As for bending the lugs, I did it with pliers - lining the holes up to the Craig's lugs was the important thing. As Dave said above the tweeter sticks out further than the original, so be careful not to push out the dash.

Another thing I did was cut off the old connectors - they slid off the terminals very easily. I just soldered on the new ones that came in the box, they clip on way more tightly.
You guys are trying to hard! Use a socket with an extension, it will help out a lot. Better than getting your fingers all jammed up in there. When you do the passenger side, take the glove box out. At least it will give you a second angle to work with. Also, when I did mine, I had the seats out. It was because I was running new wiring for the rear speakers and other audio equipment I was putting in, but it seemed to really help out with getting your body in the right angle to get in there. The bonus was I could clean out 30 years worth of dirt and grime from under them.

I don't know, when I replaced my front speakers I was anticipating a long, tough job. But it went rather smoothly. Maybe I just got lucky!

[alexwolf1216]

You guys are trying to hard! Use a socket with an extension, it will help out a lot. Better than getting your fingers all jammed up in there. When you do the passenger side, take the glove box out. At least it will give you a second angle to work with. Also, when I did mine, I had the seats out. It was because I was running new wiring for the rear speakers and other audio equipment I was putting in, but it seemed to really help out with getting your body in the right angle to get in there. The bonus was I could clean out 30 years worth of dirt and grime from under them.

I don't know, when I replaced my front speakers I was anticipating a long, tough job. But it went rather smoothly. Maybe I just got lucky!

Notifier hooked me up with a set of extension nuts and some screws. I had all of the kneeepads out as well as the glove box. I screwed on the extensions, used one hand to hold the speaker up, used a magnetic screwdriver to put one screw in. This held the speaker in place enough to do the other side. I had to add a couple of washers to make the passenger side tight, but once I figured it out both were installed in roughly 10 minutes. Both seats were in, and that sucked......shoulda removed them.

[nkemp]

Oh man. Tell me about it. I've spent way too long trying to get the nuts on to the studs. It took a couple of hours yesterday to get the driver's side one in. I spent so long upside down under the dash, I thought I would need a chiropractor! Access is a total nightmare, you don't have much room to work.

OK ... so you are done ... but for anyone doing this in the future (yes... being a time machine it is possible to do this in the past :) get some circuit board extensions instead of using nuts. You'll be doing in minutes what others take hours to do.

More details here: http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?8110-Front-speaker-replacement-made-easy

How did they do this in the factory??? They used Lepricons/leprechauns.

[dmruschell]

OK ... so you are done ... but for anyone doing this in the future (yes... being a time machine it is possible to do this in the past :) get some circuit board extensions instead of using nuts. You'll be doing in minutes what others take hours to do.

More details here: http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?8110-Front-speaker-replacement-made-easy

How did they do this in the factory??? They used Lepricons/leprechauns.

Another option is to just mount them to the fiberglass. Drill 2 holes, and screw in two screws. I originally bent the speaker tabs and installed them using the original nuts with pliers (the socket wouldn't reach up far enough because the speaker itself got in the way). When one of those speakers took a dump, I mounted the replacements on the fiberglass. It was much easier.

[MML]

Well I got the little feckers in... what a tricky job that was. Even with a socket extension, the nuts were hard to get in. The lugs needed a lot of fiddling with so they lined up and still had enough clearance to fit the socket in.
I tried several local places for coupling nuts but nowhere had any. Rather than wait several days if I ordered online, I just went back to it (out of stubbornness mostly!) and eventually got the nuts in place.

As for removing the glovebox, that wasn't an option I wanted to explore - my glovebox is a DMCH repro, as you know it's made of fibreglass and is a lot thicker than the original, and thus harder to fit; it was actually very hard to squeeze into place. It would be more trouble than it's worth to try removing it again!

The old speakers actually look in good shape, turned out the reason one wasn't working was because a wire popped off (it was very loose).

After testing everything I was very impressed with the difference, it was a heck of a lot better than before.

Has anyone got a pic of where the speaker wires terminate inside the dash? It's been a while since I had the radio out so I can't quite remember the layout. I might get around to rewiring it some day.


http://i.imgur.com/XVS1Ei0.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/BrtGVlN.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/HKu2lui.jpg

[NightFlyer]

The old speakers actually look in good shape, turned out the reason one wasn't working was because a wire popped off (it was very loose).

Those do look to be in very good shape.

As to the speaker wires, they terminate in the radio's harness plug.

[wtbstuff]

Is the ks410 the same as the KS4100? Sorry I don't know much about speakers. Is one better then the other?

thanks
Jay
1505

[DMCMW Dave]

Is the ks410 the same as the KS4100? Sorry I don't know much about speakers. Is one better then the other?

thanks
Jay
1505

One is a newer version of the other. They fit the same, i.e. the tweeter sticks out but you can work around that.

[wtbstuff]

Thank you Dave, your the knowledge base as always!

Jay

[TTait]

With the Infinity Kappa 32.9 nearly impossible to find these days, I decided to go with the Infinity 3032CF in the front, as I'd still prefer to stick with Infinity to match the rears than go with Kickers, etc.

Initially installation was tough, the speaker fits fine but its hard to get the nuts started as with all other speakers. I took a deep wall socket, a bolt, and two nuts and solved the installation access problem. I threaded one nut onto the bolt and dropped it, bolt head up, into the socket. The bottom of the longish bolt dropped out of the bottom opening of the socket where the square drive usually goes, and the nut threaded onto it provides a bottom stop within the body of the socket. I adjusted the nut position on the bolt until the bolt head sits just deep enough down into the socket to allow the second nut to sit up on top of it, inside the socket but at the very top. It was then very easy to reach in holding the socket in my fingers and start the nut onto the stud, once it started the battle is won.

FWIW I do a similar technique when installing the lower door covers - getting those two screws into the door handles is a PITA - so in that case I use a bolt instead of the screwdriver. to get it in easily I drop a few nuts into a socket to space the bolt up to the height I want it inside the socket, and then take masking tape, pop a small hole in the center and put it over the exposed bolt shaft, and then wrap it around the body of the socket. Because I use nuts here instead of a bolt, I can use a screwdriver or extension in that case if needed. Once the bolt is tight the tape breaks away and the tool can be removed. BTW - I do this with the door open, so the remaining spacer nuts inside the socket do not fall out when retracting the tool.

But I digress - this is a speaker thread.

So now that they are installed - the Infinity 3032CF sounds very good. In theory the Kappa would be a better match, but its still a quality product. My only complaint is that the Kappa has the externally mounted crossover with screw down terminals that I find superior to traditional terminals found on the 3032.

I've installed all new #14 speaker wire throughout so the original wires and terminals are not a consideration in my installation. For reference I have a new Kenwood head unit driving the 4 main speakers and a 10" sub on the cubby door with a mono amp driving it to fill in just a bit of the low end. I'm not listening to hip hop with the windows rattling, but I have nice smooth clean response all the way up, and am happy.

If you want all Infinity speakers, the 52.9 Kappa in the back and the 3032CF in the front is a very good combination, and with any luck the fronts may go in a little easier with that socket tip!

Tom

[Rich_NYS]

Anybody have advice on the Infinity Reference 6832cf?

I found a nice price on a pair for sale, but not sure if it's a good choice.

[cdrusn]

That's what I have in mine but it required some modification for a fit so they wouldn't move around. Just make sure you tighten the screws holding them in. They have great sound. I got mine from Amazon. :race:

[Rich_NYS]

That's what I have in mine but it required some modification for a fit so they wouldn't move around. Just make sure you tighten the screws holding them in. They have great sound. I got mine from Amazon. :race:

Thanks!

[Ryan S.]

Anybody have advice on the Infinity Reference 6832cf?

I found a nice price on a pair for sale, but not sure if it's a good choice.
Where did you find it?

[Rich_NYS]

Where did you find it?


A few pairs for sale [locally] on Craigslist. I don't want to modify them to fit, so they're not what I'm looking for.

[TTait]

With the Infinity Kappa 32.9 nearly impossible to find these days, I decided to go with the Infinity 3032CF in the front, as I'd still prefer to stick with Infinity to match the rears than go with Kickers, etc.

Initially installation was tough, the speaker fits fine but its hard to get the nuts started as with all other speakers. I took a deep wall socket, a bolt, and two nuts and solved the installation access problem. I threaded one nut onto the bolt and dropped it, bolt head up, into the socket. The bottom of the longish bolt dropped out of the bottom opening of the socket where the square drive usually goes, and the nut threaded onto it provides a bottom stop within the body of the socket. I adjusted the nut position on the bolt until the bolt head sits just deep enough down into the socket to allow the second nut to sit up on top of it, inside the socket but at the very top. It was then very easy to reach in holding the socket in my fingers and start the nut onto the stud, once it started the battle is won.

FWIW I do a similar technique when installing the lower door covers - getting those two screws into the door handles is a PITA - so in that case I use a bolt instead of the screwdriver. to get it in easily I drop a few nuts into a socket to space the bolt up to the height I want it inside the socket, and then take masking tape, pop a small hole in the center and put it over the exposed bolt shaft, and then wrap it around the body of the socket. Because I use nuts here instead of a bolt, I can use a screwdriver or extension in that case if needed. Once the bolt is tight the tape breaks away and the tool can be removed. BTW - I do this with the door open, so the remaining spacer nuts inside the socket do not fall out when retracting the tool.

But I digress - this is a speaker thread.

So now that they are installed - the Infinity 3032CF sounds very good. In theory the Kappa would be a better match, but its still a quality product. My only complaint is that the Kappa has the externally mounted crossover with screw down terminals that I find superior to traditional terminals found on the 3032.

I've installed all new #14 speaker wire throughout so the original wires and terminals are not a consideration in my installation. For reference I have a new Kenwood head unit driving the 4 main speakers and a 10" sub on the cubby door with a mono amp driving it to fill in just a bit of the low end. I'm not listening to hip hop with the windows rattling, but I have nice smooth clean response all the way up, and am happy.

If you want all Infinity speakers, the 52.9 Kappa in the back and the 3032CF in the front is a very good combination, and with any luck the fronts may go in a little easier with that socket tip!

Tom


BTW - quick update. 200 watt head units don't have the power really for driving a sub as well. I added an amp for the sub and the system sounds fantastic, even at full volume and with thumping bass if I want it.

[TheMaverick]

I'm about to order new speakers, need some advice, has anyone installed REF-3032CFX or 3002CFX? Seem identical in power rating, the 3032 is more expensive than the 3002 but it does have a smaller profile..

http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz338/secretspyder/speaksers_zps9cwu0ere.png

http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz338/secretspyder/speaksers2_zpszng2uqkx.png

[bueller]

I purchased the REF-3022CFX for the front dash. I would recommend getting offsets for the studs as the cones will push the dash speaker area out a bit. Several ways to do the offset but the basic approach would be to use an M4 x 1.00 couplers or similar. As to why I purchased the 3022CFX vs. others, I wanted the best speakers I could find for the size since I didn't want to go back in there twice since it's such a pain. I assumed higher price meant higher quality though the specs seem very similar.

Just for reference, I also went with the Infinity Kappa 52.LLi for the rear. Even with 4 solid Infinity speakers, the sound really isn't very good due to the acoustics. I went ahead and did as many others on this forum did and added a sub to the mix. I went with the new Infinity Kappa 800W and a small sub in the driver's side cubby hole and that made all the difference filing out the lower end.

If anyone is interested, I accidentally got an extra 8" Infinity sub that I would be willing to part with also :)

[nkemp]

Whatever you do, I highly recommend: http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?8110-Front-speaker-replacement-made-easy

It makes putting in the fronts , dare I say, "easy".

Put short standoff in first. At a min, use an anaerobic thread locker such as Loctite blue. Rings may also be installed as a spacer but you'll still need short standoffs to extend the original studs. To make a ring, glue layers of heavier paper, posterboard or even cereal box int the right size ring. If you have a form (maybe the right size bottle, jar or similar is in the recycling) it will be easier. Then use the long standoffs to install the speaker.

The trouble with the original design is that most can't get more than one hand into the area making it difficult to hold and install the nut. The speaker magnets don't make it any easier since they draw any tool and/or the nut. With the long standoffs you gain some ability to have both hands or it makes it easier to use one hand.

[Lwanmtr]

I am looking and for the fronts I am thinking of these...

Pioneer TS878
Kenwood KFC-835

Anyone have experience with these? Do they stick up and hit the dash?

The rear Im going with

Pioneer TSA4103

[blueshark66]

I am looking and for the fronts I am thinking of these...

Pioneer TS878
Kenwood KFC-835

Anyone have experience with these? Do they stick up and hit the dash?

The rear Im going with

Pioneer TSA4103

I just installed that exact set of Pioneer speakers: TS-A878 and TS-A4103. The back ones fit perfectly, the front ones not so much. The center cone on the front does stick up and will not mount without some modification. I didn't want to try to extend the mounting bolts, so I just turned the speakers about 90º and screwed them right into the fiberglass (drilled pilot holes first). Works fine for me.

[Lwanmtr]

Thanks. I tried to find good pictures of them and they looked flat....Guess I may go with the Kenwood, unless I can find ones that actually are flat...goofy way to mount speakers...lol.

[rickjames8]

I recently installed Kicker 3.5"s up front. Love the way they sound, but yes, the center cone sticks up a bit making the install a bit tricky. Photos to illustrate. Mind you, I have grilles over my stock locations so any change to the dash can't be seen.

51241 51242

[Lwanmtr]

I ordered Kenwood KFC-835c's for the front and 415c's for the rear. I've thought about putting grilles over the front locations, but wasnt sure where you find them without speakers..hehe.

[cpistocco]

Hello
I was wondering if anyone in the community can recommend a good set of front speakers that will fit a factory dash without modification.
I am running the factory craig radio, and I just want to buy the best sounding direct fit speaker available. I don't want to drill holes in the dash.....I don't want to get a back ache playing with hardware...
I just want to unbolt the 3.5 craigs, and bolt a new set back in!
Thanks
Charlie :)

[kobachi]

I don't want to get a back ache playing with hardware...

Unfortunately this part is unavoidable no matter what hardware/speakers you choose.

[nkemp]

From above:


Whatever you do, I highly recommend: http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?81...ment-made-easy (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?8110-Front-speaker-replacement-made-easy)

It makes putting in the fronts , dare I say, "easy".

The main hassle with replacing the fronts is getting tools, speakers, fingers, washers and nuts all in place while you are cramped under the dash. This is aggravated by the magnets sucking up tools and parts. If you use the 3"ish standoffs as described in the post, no tools required, your hands are far enough back to do the job and many if not most standoffs are not attracted to magnets.

Do one the old fashioned way and do the other with standoffs and you'll NEVER do it the old fashioned way again. You might (and I emphasize MIGHT) be able to do the install without going under the dash if your arms are long enough.

[Lwanmtr]

I recently replaced my fronts with Kenwood 835's they fit right in. As for installation..I did the old fashioned way (forgot all about the standoffs) and it was a pain...I'd suggest pulling the front seats out, you'll make life easier that way.

[cpistocco]

Thanks, everyone, for the input. Much appreciated! Why must every tiny procedure on a Delorean be a living Hell? :)

[Lwanmtr]

So that you get a real sense of accomplishment?

[cpistocco]

I recently replaced my fronts with Kenwood 835's they fit right in. As for installation..I did the old fashioned way (forgot all about the standoffs) and it was a pain...I'd suggest pulling the front seats out, you'll make life easier that way.

How do they sound? Better than Craigs? :)

[Lwanmtr]

I couldnt say...all my speakers were rather ripped n crunchy when I got the car, so I never really heard them. I think they sound pretty good..I dont have any kind of amp or equalizer, just a cd/radio thing.

[cpistocco]

I couldnt say...all my speakers were rather ripped n crunchy when I got the car, so I never really heard them. I think they sound pretty good..I dont have any kind of amp or equalizer, just a cd/radio thing.

ok Thanks :)

[cpistocco]

BTW Would anyone like to sell a good, factory Craig front 3.5? I don't mind the way they sound... :)

[baeckerbursch]

The JBL GTO 329 fits great with standoffs and the sound is fantastic (on the right)

Here the comparison to Kicker speakers (on the left)

[cpistocco]

The JBL GTO 329 fits great with standoffs and the sound is fantastic (on the right)

Here the comparison to Kicker speakers (on the left)

Bought GTOs and standoffs. I have a bunch of extra standoffs. Free to whoever needs some. PM me and send me a SASE. :)

[cpistocco]

Update on the JBL GTOs. They are designed horribly. The tweeter sticks out past the circular mounting flange. Therefore, you cannot get a flush fit. Terrible engineering! The flange needs to be approx. 1/4 inch taller. So annoying....Why would they do that ???

[nkemp]

... The flange needs to be approx. 1/4 inch taller. ...

You could get lucky and find a tube that fits over the existing flange to extend it (think supplement bottle, cardboard tube, or similar) . But that could take a while to find something suitable. A alternative is to cut strips of white posterboard (or cereal box ) as wide as you need to clear the dome and as long as needed to wrap around the existing flange (Circumference is 2*Pi*R or Pi*D). Then wrap and glue the strips around the existing cone. Repeat adding strips until you have sufficient buildup that it will work as a flange to hold the dome away from the dash (Probably between an 1/8 and 1/4" thick buildup).

You could guess at how many wraps are needed to get the buildup needed and cut one long strip with as many turns as needed. So if you need 4 wraps, the equation would be 8*pi*R or 25*R. The length does not need to be precise, the equation is used to get you in the ballpark.

It is a putzy process but not hard. White glue will work. You'll need something to hold the wrap to shape while drying...maybe a rubber band or two will work. Cover the dome and exiting flange with wax paper to avoid getting glue on the speaker parts and remove when done.

[cpistocco]

You could get lucky and find a tube that fits over the existing flange to extend it (think supplement bottle, cardboard tube, or similar) . But that could take a while to find something suitable. A alternative is to cut strips of white posterboard (or cereal box ) as wide as you need to clear the dome and as long as needed to wrap around the existing flange (Circumference is 2*Pi*R or Pi*D). Then wrap and glue the strips around the existing cone. Repeat adding strips until you have sufficient buildup that it will work as a flange to hold the dome away from the dash (Probably between an 1/8 and 1/4" thick buildup).

You could guess at how many wraps are needed to get the buildup needed and cut one long strip with as many turns as needed. So if you need 4 wraps, the equation would be 8*pi*R or 25*R. The length does not need to be precise, the equation is used to get you in the ballpark.

It is a putzy process but not hard. White glue will work. You'll need something to hold the wrap to shape while drying...maybe a rubber band or two will work. Cover the dome and exiting flange with wax paper to avoid getting glue on the speaker parts and remove when done.

Or I could return them and purchase a different speaker (which is what I did). :) Thanks for the suggestions, though.... Very kind of you.