Car died while on the road, now it won't start at all

[eldusto84]

Well, I have heard enough stories from Delorean owners saying their cars would break down at random moments to know that it would happen to me eventually. I was out driving the other day, only for 10-15 minutes doing some local errands when my Delorean literally stopped running while I was on the road. The engine shut off and the car coasted to a stop. I started it back up fine, and made it another 500 feet or so before it turned off again and I coasted into a parking lot. Once again I tried starting it, but the engine wouldn't turn (even though it was trying to). Had to get it towed back to my house, but as it was getting lifted onto the flatbed, I noticed several puddles on the ground from where the car was parked. A large puddle under the engine, along with 4-6 smaller puddles going up to the front of the car, right along where the coolant pipes/hoses ran. I've had some small coolant drips before, but definitely never seen the car bleed out like this. However, the coolant reservoir is still at a good level.

Any idea what the problem could be here? The car still isn't starting. I know it isn't the battery- I had it replaced only a few months ago. There was a strong smell of gasoline a few minutes after the car shut off, but that may have been due to me inadvertently flooding the engine while trying to start it back up. Bad fuel pump perhaps? I've noticed that the car would occasionally hesitate or stutter going into 2nd gear, as if there wasn't enough fuel getting to the engine. But the leaking coolant is what is really confusing me here.

[DMCMW Dave]

Common for coolant leaks to be worse in very cold weather.

As for the non-running condition, 90% of the time I hear of a car dying like this, it is the connections on the ballast resistor or the ignition coil. Check those first.

Then make sure you are not out of gas. Now you get to the next level stuff - bad RPM relay, melted fuel pump fuse etc.

[Bill Robertson's Sock Puppet #1]

Gasoline engines need both fuel delivery and spark to run. Loss of either will prevent the engine from running.

These two simple tests will help you narrow down your problem between fuel and spark:
1) Fuel delivery: spray some starting fluid (ether) into the air filter housing via the PCV breather barb then try to start the engine. If the engine at least tries to start on the ether, if not actually runs for second or two, your problem likely is on the fuel delivery side
2) Spark: Put a timing light inductive pickup on the distributor lead wire, hold its trigger, then crank the engine. If the timing light does not flash on & off as the engine rotates then your problem likely is on the ignition side

Of course these initial rudimentary tests won't tell you exactly what is wrong, but they will tell you which system to start diagnosing in greater detail. You don't want to spend a lot of time trying to diagnose fuel delivery if the problem in fact is spark, or vice versa.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Are you saying the engine would not even turn over with the starter? So it seems like it seized?

[Ron]

2) Spark: Put a timing light inductive pickup on the distributor lead wire, hold its trigger, then crank the engine. If the timing light does not flash on & off as the engine rotates then your problem likely is on the ignition side.

No need for a timing light to check spark...just put a small screwdriver in a plug wire and see if spark jumps to the block...

=============

Sounds like a coolant leak could have wet the ignition, distributor...

[Dangermouse]

http://semiaccurate.com/assets/uploads/2012/03/I-See-What-You-Did-There..png, Ron :)



OP, I had the same problem and it turned out to be the connection on the coil.

[DMCMW Dave]

Are you saying the engine would not even turn over with the starter? So it seems like it seized?

People always get these definitions wrong.

To me -
"turn over" = starter turns the engine. Could also be stated as "cranking".
"fire" = spark plugs ignite fuel and the engine starts or at least sputters.

I don't know why but non-technical people take "Turn over" to mean "fire"


The way I read his note the engine is cranking (what he refers to as "trying to") but is not firing.

[David T]

The 2 most common possibilities are the connections on the ballast resistor or an electrical problem that prevents the fuel pump from running. Typically a connection problem on the ballast resistor will prevent you from starting, it doesn't kill it while it is running. More common for the fuel pump to stop. Common problems preventing the pump from running include a bad RPM relay, bad connections at the pump, the plug by the washer bottle or the inertia switch. Start with the RPM relay by jumpering it. The coolant leaks are most likely unrelated but should be fixed.
David Teitelbaum

[Jonathan]

As I read your post, I was thinking ballast resistor as well. Then others chimed in thinking the same thing.

I say this because shortly after I got my car, it died on me twice and it was related to the ballast resistor wiring. The first time was in the parking lot of a cruise night when I had parked, and then right away went back to the car to move it a few spots over. The second time happened while I was driving, so I will disagree with Dave T. slightly on his account that it won't make your car die.

Mine proved to be the four connections on the ballast resistor were not all where they were supposed to be. When it wouldn't start the first time, we realized at the cruise night that one of the connectors had melted itself off. Another car guy helped me put on a new connector and we were good to go. The problem was, we put it back in the same wrong spot as before.

The second time it happened was while driving. Again the connector melted itself loose, but this time I knew where to look. I connected it again, and then when I got home I posted here on the forum a picture of my ballast resistor wiring. One of the members here pointed out that instead of all four posts having one wire each, the lower left one should be empty, and there needs to be a double on the right. I reconnected it the way it was supposed to be and never had another issue with it.

Pictures here show the before and after. This could be your problem, or at least might help you figure out what the issue is.

1550115502

[Ron]

People always get these definitions wrong.

To me -
"turn over" = starter turns the engine. Could also be stated as "cranking".
"fire" = spark plugs ignite fuel and the engine starts or at least sputters.

I don't know why but non-technical people take "Turn over" to mean "fire"


The way I read his note the engine is cranking (what he refers to as "trying to") but is not firing.
$.02

Same here, but I do wonder why the battery is mentioned... And with a coolant leak, it could be any thing up to a blown head gasket, (your tank full means nothing)...

======

RE fun with jargon:

To me-
If someone says, "The battery is good but it will not fire", usually they meant it has an ignition problem.
But, if they said, "The battery is good but it will not fire up", it could be an ignition problem, fuel problem, or whatever, it will not run.
Ya never know!

I think it is all because some people say "fire" as short for "fire up"/"fire off" (big difference), as with "start" as short for "start up" (no difference), AND, "crank" as short for "crank up" (big difference). But it can make sense to anyone, if both are used together eg "I tried to crank it up, but it wouldn't start". Sounds like the same thing to me, but the context makes it clear. Trouble is when only one term in the mix is used...
"Crank" = "turn over", and if everything is in working order, it will "start" = "start up" = "crank up" = "fire up" = "fire off" = "run"
I've learned to ALWAYS confirm with my customers in terms of "turn over" and "run", together, to avoid confusion.

Once the crank handle was replaced with a starter (which can work perfectly, but never "start" the engine), I guess it has been downhill ever since...
Just sloppy jargon and symantics...:thinkin::frantic:

[DeLorean03]

My jargon:

"The engine tries TO CATCH, but never does ... " meaning I'm sitting there with the key turned waiting for the engine to start running under its own power, and I can let go of the key.

Said another way:

"The engine cranks but does not fire"


When the engine DOES fire, meaning the engine is now idling under its own power, I say:

"The engine has successfully turned over and is now idling on its own."

To me, and this is strictly subjective, the logical order is:

dead --> cranks --> fires --> idles under its own power.

Dead: obvious
Cranking: that time where you're holding the key waiting for the engine to fire
Firing: that moment where you know the engine is going to run under its own power and you don't have to hold the key anymore
Idling: obvious

Just my thoughts there.

[David T]

If you read my post carefully I used the words "typically" and "commonly". I know that there is no hard and fast rule but I also know from experience what is typical and common. It is really amazing how quickly the motor will shut down when you remove the electric power from the fuel pump. Both areas must be checked because just because one is causing today's problem, the other area may be ready to cause tomorrow's problem. It is not always good to stop when you think you "found" the problem. Many times a problem has multiple causes and you only "fixed" one of them.
David Teitelbaum

[Bitsyncmaster]

Will not turn over means the starter is not rotating the engine.

Engine is cranking means the starter is rotating the engine at 400 to 800 RPM.

Cranking over slowly means engine is rotating slowly with the starter engaged.

Will not fire means the engine is cranking but there is no sign of any ignition.



All pretty logical words to me.

[Citizen]

One thing I've learned by being on this forum for as long as I have is, if your first name is Dave, chances are you know a lot about DeLoreans.

...

[DeLorean03]

One thing I've learned by being on this forum for as long as I have is, if your first name is Dave, chances are you know a lot about DeLoreans.

...

Easily, post of the day xD !!!!!

Poor Dave at DMC-MW, I think he's talked more to me than his technicians lately ;).

[Ron]

My jargon:

"The engine tries TO CATCH, but never does ... " meaning I'm sitting there with the key turned waiting for the engine to start running under its own power, and I can let go of the key.

Said another way:

"The engine cranks but does not fire"


When the engine DOES fire, meaning the engine is now idling under its own power, I say:

"The engine has successfully turned over and is now idling on its own."

To me, and this is strictly subjective, the logical order is:

dead --> cranks --> fires --> idles under its own power.

Dead: obvious
Cranking: that time where you're holding the key waiting for the engine to fire
Firing: that moment where you know the engine is going to run under its own power and you don't have to hold the key anymore
Idling: obvious

Just my thoughts there.

You reminded me of another one...A lot of people have said, "When I turn the key it spins but won't catch". This can mean the engine turns but it will not run, or, the starter turns but its clutch drive is bad, so it does not turn the flywheel (so the engine does not turn).

Next up motor or engine !LOL!

[eldusto84]

Thanks for the replies. Judging by most of the responses, it seems that the most likely culprit(s) here would be the ballast resistor, ignition coil, or a bad RPM relay. I will check on all of these things and get back to everyone!

Oh, and it looks like I've ignited an automotive terminology war here! Or should I say...turned over? Fired up? :tongue:

[David T]

Another possibility is a bad impulse coil. The symptom is typically the car runs for about 20 minutes and then quits. It is possible that a bad impulse coil will prevent the motor from even starting. I didn't mention that because from the description it doesn't fit but I just wanted to include all possibilities. One of the first things you must do is try to figure out if it is a fuel system problem or an ignition system problem. Two quick ways. You can give the motor a squirt of Ether or you can see if there is any spark. Do not try both at the same time!
David Teitelbaum

[LEVY]

Even another possibility, if still using the original fuel pump setup, pickup hose collapsing.


LEVY

[DMC5180]

Thanks for the replies. Judging by most of the responses, it seems that the most likely culprit(s) here would be the ballast resistor, ignition coil, or a bad RPM relay. I will check on all of these things and get back to everyone!

Oh, and it looks like I've ignited an automotive terminology war here! Or should I say...turned over? Fired up? :tongue:

Sudden engine quitting can also happen from a broken fuel pick-up hose. However the fuel level in the tank would need to below the hose connection on the pump or right at the level to cause the FP to suck air. This might explain why the engine fired back up but you only made it 500 feet before it quit again. What attitude was the car at when it died? LEVEL, DOWNHILL or UPHILL Inclination.

[Ron]

Oh, and it looks like I've ignited an automotive terminology war here! Or should I say...turned over? Fired up? :tongue:


LOL...Just normal discussion...you will know when a war breaks out:devil:


Do the spark and ether tests... ;-)

[eldusto84]

Sudden engine quitting can also happen from a broken fuel pick-up hose. However the fuel level in the tank would need to below the hose connection on the pump or right at the level to cause the FP to suck air. This might explain why the engine fired back up but you only made it 500 feet before it quit again. What attitude was the car at when it died? LEVEL, DOWNHILL or UPHILL Inclination.

The tank was 3/4 full when the car failed, and I was on a mildly uphill incline. Also, out of curiosity, how does one determine whether the ignition coil and/or ballast resistor has gone bad?

[DMCMW Dave]

The tank was 3/4 full when the car failed, and I was on a mildly uphill incline. Also, out of curiosity, how does one determine whether the ignition coil and/or ballast resistor has gone bad?

Pull the large wire off the coil and hold it just above the opening on the coil. (Keep your fingers away from the metal parts) Have someone crank the engine. If you have a spark there, all is well. If not, it could be the coil, ballasts, wiring, etc.

[TTait]

In the name of expediancy, can you hear the fuel pump run for a second when you turn the key to run?

Then, remove the air filter. Turn the key to run, wait 2 seconds, back to off - repeat 3 times. Don't actually try to start the car.

Then very lightly press against the flapper valve in the center of the 5" round opening where you removed the air filter. If it pops down with little or no pressure, you have no fuel getting to the FD - if it offers resistance, you likely have fuel pressure. If you do find fuel pressure, pull the black connector off the warm up regulator (with 2 fuel lines running to it over cylinder #3) and plug it onto the cold start valve (blue valve with blue connector over Cylinder#2). Try to start it one more time.

You may learn a lot in 2 minutes without running out to buy you ether or finding someone to crank the engine while you look for spark.

Tom

[Elvis]

Several times repeated - there are RPM relays out there that do not prime !

I have VIN6548 - original relay -> does not prime !

[TTait]

If it does - good to know the fuel pump is running. If it does not - something else to look into. If his pump does not prime, maybe the RPM relay is the issue, maybe one of 10 other things.

Not trying to give the best path to finding all problems, just a very productive 2 minutes of work anyone can do without supplies or an assistant.

[Elvis]

And that's good advices, but some relays simply don't prime and he might start looking at the wrong end.

Bridging the rpm relay is a good tip and testing the air measuring plate for resistance is also a superb advice.

How to do this can be found in many threads.
Fuse 7 is also prone to melt.


When there is fuel and the plugs are wet - test it for spark. Pretty often it's the connectors at the resistor.
Could also be the relay that bridges one resistor while cranking. If the spark is too weak, it may no start
immediately. Try bridging one of the resistors to get more energy for the spark while cranking. (the bridge
should not be needed anymore when running)

How old are the plugs and how do they look like ?
And how old is the coil ?

[Ron]

The tank was 3/4 full when the car failed, and I was on a mildly uphill incline. Also, out of curiosity, how does one determine whether the ignition coil and/or ballast resistor has gone bad?There are several methods given in the first few posts ???

If you use a spare plug in an existing plug wire you check everything electrical from there to the battery (and ground). All that leaves is the installed spark plug.... Only warning is to not make it jump over a 1/4" (why many use a phillips screwdriver. ...insulating type handle is kind of nice too ;-)

[eldusto84]

Ok, so I sprayed starter fluid into the air intake and the car started right up. I let it run for a good 15 minutes then turned it off, then started it right back up without a problem a few minutes later (without having to use starter fluid the 2nd time). The exhaust was very smoky at first, but otherwise everything seemed OK. The weather here is too crappy for me to drive it around the block, so for now I'll have to deal with it idling in my garage. Does this mean I have a fuel system problem then?

[Bill Robertson's Sock Puppet]

Yes (with the caveat that the fuel problem could have an electrical cause).

Aren't you glad now you didn't go chasing ignition first?

[DMCMW Dave]

Check the thermotime switch/circuit to make sure you have a functional cold start injector.

[David T]

If you think you have a fuel system problem the next step is to determine if it is mechanical or electrical. A good place to start would be at fuse #7 to see if it is melted. Next I would inspect the parts in the tank, the boots, the hoses, and the connections to the pump. You did not rule out an ignition problem though. Getting it started on Ether was to rule out a fuel pump problem. If it continued to run without Ether it does not confirm a fuel system problem. What ever the problem is can now be classified as intermittent. A bad connection in the primary ignition system is still a possibility.
David Teitelbaum

[Bill Robertson's Sock Puppet]

A bad connection in the primary ignition system is still a possibility.

Possible, but not likely. If I was eldusto84 I would spend my time and energy trouble shooting the fuel delivery system first, especially components related to cold start and warm up.

[DMC5180]

Possible, but not likely. If I was eldusto84 I would spend my time and energy trouble shooting the fuel delivery system first, especially components related to cold start and warm up.

Here is a quote from the first post:

"I was out driving the other day, only for 10-15 minutes doing some local errands when my Delorean literally stopped running while I was on the road. The engine shut off and the car coasted to a stop. I started it back up fine, and made it another 500 feet or so before it turned off again and I coasted into a parking lot."

Cold start and warmup should not have any effect on why the car quit all of a sudden. Nor should it have any effect on restarting a Hot engine (unless the CSV is grounded live during cranking w the hot engine). A poor electrical connection with in the fuel delivery system or ignition system would it though.

[Ron]

Cold start and warmup should not have any effect on why the car quit all of a sudden. Nor should it have any effect on restarting a Hot engine (unless the CSV is grounded live during cranking w the hot engine). A poor electrical connection with in the fuel delivery system or ignition system would it though.

+1

...and ignition problems, poor/intermittent connection causing it to flood during re/start, only to be cleared out with ether after disturbing it while checking thing out fits the symptoms much better to me...I wouldn't bet on it, but it is a lot better fit with all the symptoms given.

How it NOW starts, especially when cold, may reveal a lot...

[eldusto84]

Ok so I am bumping this thread back up in order to give an update. We've had a couple of balmy days here in Cleveland that persuaded me to temporarily de-winterize my car, just to see if it could start up OK. So, I reconnected the battery, gave it a quick jump and voila, car starts up without a hitch. Exhaust wasn't smoking, idle was a bit rough at first but it has been a good month since the car was started.

However, I did notice a faint buzzing sound coming from the ignition coil area. Is this indicative of a bad coil? I haven't noticed the noise before and it would get louder if I pressed on the gas slightly.

Oh, and Fuse #7 is just fine.

[DMCMW Dave]

Ok so I am bumping this thread back up in order to give an update. We've had a couple of balmy days here in Cleveland that persuaded me to temporarily de-winterize my car, just to see if it could start up OK. So, I reconnected the battery, gave it a quick jump and voila, car starts up without a hitch. Exhaust wasn't smoking, idle was a bit rough at first but it has been a good month since the car was started.

However, I did notice a faint buzzing sound coming from the ignition coil area. Is this indicative of a bad coil? I haven't noticed the noise before and it would get louder if I pressed on the gas slightly.

Oh, and Fuse #7 is just fine.

That buzzing is the frequency valve. It's supposed to do that. If you want to prove it to yourself unplug it.