Odd garage door problem....

[GS450-Junkie]

So some little bastard decided he needed my satellite radio more than I did. So... I put up some new fancy LED motion lights on both sides of the garage door to prevent further break-ins. Now.... I have a new problem. When the lights are on (at night obviously) my garage door openers (remotes in our vehicles and keypad located outside the door) will not work thus the door won't open. During the day, everything works great. I've googled it...people seem to say that the door opener and LED motion lights are using the same frequency thus the opener is fighting the lights, and the unit can't receive the message sent from the opener remote. Very frustrating.... having to push the button 25 times or just give up and go in the side entry door in order to put the car away at night. Google also told me that I may be able to purchase an interference filter...some sort of device that plugs into an outlet and then the door opener would plug into that eliminating my problem. I've tried to find them to buy one...can't seem to find anything or anyone who knows what I'm talking about. Tried several hardware chains, Best Buy, etc. Nothing....
All I can find is a small surge protector that will plug in and fit behind a flat panel wall mounted tv that says noise reduction applications. Not sure if that will cut it.
Anything else I can try? Garage door opener is newer...maybe 5 years old or so. Can I change the chip inside to run a different frequency? An easy fix is to just change the lights, but I really like them and can no longer take them back. Why does everything have to be so damn hard?? A 15 minute job always turns out like this one.... :what_the:

[Jimmyvonviggle]

I'm a little more old fashioned, I stick a screwdriver in the track to prevent anyone from opening my door.

[Notifier]

Are the LED lights 120 volts? And if so, are they on the same circuit as the opener? The question here is if it's a frequency issue going through the house wiring or going over the airwaves. If it is the house wiring there may be a fix without buying a filter.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Try just one of your new lights (remove the bulb on the other if possible) and try to narrow down the problem. You may just have a bad bulb. Or you may need to get another manufacturers bulb, also try an incandescent just to be sure it is the light bulb causing the problem.

[Chris4099]

When I moved, my new opener was too new for my existing in-car remotes. So I got this from Home Depot:
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-100654121/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=garage+remote&storeId=10051

It uses a dual frequency setup, so it may do the trick for you.

[Dangermouse]

I think Dave is on the right track. Electrically speaking, the only difference between night and day operation is the energization of the LED bulbs. Light wiring and door wiring are the same either way.

Whether it is the LED electronics that are interfering with the radio waves in some way, or if they are inducing some sort of interference in the house wiring, you could replace them with incandescents to confirm.

You could then refit them one at a time (you don't say how many bulbs there are) and see if one specific one is faulty. Or they may be just cheapo bulbs. If you have higher quality LEDs elsewhere, you could try those, or downgrade to CFLs.

Perhaps contact the manufacture, especially if these are specifically marketed as garage entry lights, in case they have any suggestion.

[GS450-Junkie]

Here are some pics of the lights. As you can see... a standard bulb will not screw into the housing. Each light has 8 LEDs...4 on each side. They are something like 2000 lumens and are 24w. Super bright!! There is also a backsplash of light that comes on automatically at dusk...and lasts until dawn (above and below the unit onto the siding to create a sort of dim nightlight) which actually I find handy. If the "nightlights" are on...the door will open when I push the remote.... but if the bright security lights are on...forget about it. The door will not open no matter how many times I push the remote button. I've checked the breaker in the basement.... the garage door opener and the outside security lights ARE on the same circuit...but I had no issues with that when the old outside lights that used incandescent lights were hooked up the same way. So what does this all mean? I'd call the lighting company on the box but they are currently closed until tomorrow.

[Dangermouse]

I find this fascinating

Here's a suggestion:

My garage door is simply plugged into a duplex receptacle in the ceiling. If yours is the same, run an extension cable from a receptacle inside the house, on a different circuit and see what happens. It will isolate the lighting circuit from the opener circuit, well as much as you can do.

Another suggestion. If you hold the clicker close to the door opener mechanism, while standing inside the garage (maybe on a ladder) with the LEDs on, does it work?

[Dangermouse]

I did a little research on this


Ok, cancel my suggestions, even though they were great and go back to my first post about "cheap LED" which was awesome ;)

Seems like the LED electronics generate radio waves at a freq that can overlap garage door openers

http://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/m/discussion?id=6069565%3ATopic%3A76621

I like the idea of testing with a portable radio tuned between stations

[Dangermouse]

Quote:

It seems that the control circuit to maintain the light's efficiency and long life generates radio emissions. The government control technically states that they should be between 30 and 300 MHZ. Most garage door remotes are 288(Liftmaster/Craftsman), 309, & 360(Genie/Overhead Door) MHZ. All within the range when tolerances are considered.
The regulation relies on manufacturers A.) knowing that they must control the frequency emission and B.) The honor system in making sure a product meets the requirements.

You say it is not a standard screw in base. What sort/size is it? Pics?

[GS450-Junkie]

Ok,
I tried running an extension cord from a kitchen outlet out to the garage door opener. I know for a fact that the kitchen outlets are on their own breaker. I still have the same problem when I tried it.
I tried the second thing which was to stand inside the garage and push the remote button with the door down and outside lights on. It works fine. The door opens and closes as soon as I push it....since the led lights are outside and I'm inside the remote seems to have no problem talking to the opener as it should.

I assure you these were not cheap LED security Lights. These were actually the 2nd most expensive lights at the store that I bought them from and there were over 65-70 to choose from. They were over $115 each. The only more expensive ones there had recording and picture taking capabilities also built into them. I may call radio shack and also a communications repair place and see if they can help me. If not, I may just return them and go with an incandescent bulb unit again. What a shame....

See post #7 for a pic of the lights. It appears to be a one piece system...nothing to really take apart

[Dangermouse]

Well at least you have confirmed that the wiring is not the problem and it seems to be caused by trying to operate the remote "through" the radio waves that the LEDs are generating.

I had a quick look online and see that name brand lamps go for $50 and up so it would make the whole exercise very expensive, even if it was proved that a "better" bulb did the trick.

[dmc6960]

Is the exterior case metal or plastic? Did your wiring box have a good ground wire available? Curious if perhaps an improperly grounded case could be amplifying the interference like an antenna.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Is the exterior case metal or plastic? Did your wiring box have a good ground wire available? Curious if perhaps an improperly grounded case could be amplifying the interference like an antenna.

Good idea. You can try wrapping the box in foil to see if that cuts out EMI from the box. If it works, you may just need one side covered.

[Dangermouse]

Excellent idea on the tinfoil hat.

Out of curiosity, what is the make and model and where did you get them.

[refugeefromcalif]

Excellent idea on the tinfoil hat.

I think I hear something...

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=15967&d=1359069364


George

[Dangermouse]

Any updates on this?

I ask because just after the last post, my son started selling LED bulbs as a fundraiser for his robotics team.

Both expensive, and a good deal at the same time. $20 for a 13.5W, 800 lumens bulb.

Got my first one today and tried it out. Has a 2700K "warm white" rating and I am very surprised by the color. Not blue in the slightest. Very nice color just like incandescents.

I had read all about how LEDs run much cooler and true enough, the opaque white "lens" (for want of a better word) is cool, but the part that houses the electronics is toasty hot. Surprisingly so. Although probably no hotter than an incandescent. The heat sink look is not just a design element.

[GS450-Junkie]

Is the exterior case metal or plastic? Did your wiring box have a good ground wire available? Curious if perhaps an improperly grounded case could be amplifying the interference like an antenna.

plastic case

[GS450-Junkie]

Excellent idea on the tinfoil hat.

Out of curiosity, what is the make and model and where did you get them.

Patriot Lighting....came from Menards. Don't quite remember model number off hand. Took them back and got incandescent bulb security lights. I miss the night light features of the LEDs, but can't see the point of having a quite expensive light that fights the garage door. Maybe I'll switch out the incandescent bulbs with some compact fluorescents and call it good enough.

[Jonathan]

Just reading your thread and had a couple thoughts:

Can you think of a way you could remotely shut your security lights off for a moment while you are in your car in the driveway trying to open the garage door? If the opener works from inside while shielded from the interference, I am assuming the door opens okay with the lights off? Not a perfect solution but it might give you 95% of the results you are looking for. My opener has an extra button which turns the opener housing bulb on and off and perhaps that could be worked into the solution?

Or perhaps you could use part of your home as the shielding? Like the physical walls themselves? I mean maybe you could press the button just as you come around the corner to your house? Maybe do a test from the backyard and see if that theory works?

And one other bizarre trivia piece on car fob remotes and antennas. If you are out of range of your car, and pressing button doesn't do anything, hold the fob under and touching your chin, open your mouth and press the button and presto, your noggin just became an antenna. It only sounds odd until you try it and realize how far away it works from. I got my car to flash the lights at 400+ yards at one point. Good thing for anyone who doesn't remember where they parked at the mall. :)

[DMCVegas]

If the opener works from inside while shielded from the interference, I am assuming the door opens okay with the lights off?

Problem is not going to be a "shielding" issue. What's going in here is RF interference. Something with the LEDs is cranking out a signal on the same frequency and overpowering it.

Crank up the volume on your tv to the max level. Then try and speak in a raised voice to someone across your house. Chances are they won't hear you. Walk into the other room and you can have a clear conversation with you're voice at the same volume. You may still hear the TV, but you're speaking louder than it and now overpowering it's RF transmission. You in this case are the remote, the other person is the garage.

Cable modems and cellphones work on the sane principal, save for the fact that their transmitters are adjustable, unlike key fobs and garage remotes. If the get no response, they'll increase decibels until they get a response back that they're either coming in too loud (and will dial the signal down until...), or they get they all clear response back.

Another thing is that sound strength is measured in voltage. Decibels are simply a measurement of signal strength deviation, not power. 0db just means the strength is unchanged. And for every 1db you increase or decrease, there will be a 2db respective deviation as well up until the white noise eventually overpowers the signal itself to where it distorts or destroys it. Which is why people bitch that radio shack amps make pictures worse on their analog cable TV when they crank the gain too high.

So these lights are overpowering the remotes frequency. Also, unless it frequency is between 87.5mHz to 108mHz, you won't be able to detect it with a radio. Only a spectrum analyzer connected to an antenna will be able to see it in that case.

There is regrettably no way to really shield these LEDs to stop the noise. You need to encase the entire housing in shielding, because the fronts will broadcast the signal forward and block everything.

There are two solutions here:

1. Buy a garage door opener that uses a different frequency.

2. Using a spectrum analyzer with an antenna, stand in the driveway and measure the RF output of the lights in decibels (X value). Then in the same spot with the lights out, press the garage door opener with that person standing at the threshold of the garage door with the remote inside and above the door jam (Y value). If, and only IF the signal Y is higher, you'll be able to mount an antenna extension on the wall, right where that remote was. You might just have a weak antenna. But until you take those measurements you'll never know.