Problem with door and striker alignment

[jawn101]

So ever since I got my car, the passenger side door closed pretty hard. I've spent hours and hours playing with the pins and shimming different thicknesses, grinding the heads down, etc - and I've managed to get the door closing quite smoothly, but haven't corrected a minor alignment issue yet. Just wondering what everyone thinks.

So here's what's happening. When you close the door, either by pushing it from outside (always with an open hand on the lock cylinder or just above) or pulling it down with the strap from inside, it arcs smoothly and clicks solidly. The front and rear latches engage their first detent at the same time with no dragging of the pin heads, etc. The problem is that the front latch then engages it's second detent but the rear latch doesn't. Here are some pics of what I mean:

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=16780&d=1361637327
The trailing edge of the door when closed with normal force. Notice the gap between the door and rear quarter. Sorry it's sideways, the photo isn't actually and I don't know why the forum does that sometimes.

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=16781&d=1361637334
Leading edge of the door closed with normal force. Notice the perfect panel alignment here

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=16782&d=1361637343
Another shot of the leading edge, you can see how the crease lines up great from door to fender

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=16783&d=1361637350
Here's the alignment at the trailing edge of the door to the rear quarter. Not quite as good....

But, if I press the door shut with more force so that the second detent in the rear latch engages, here is the alignment I can get:
http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=16784&d=1361637357

So I've fiddled about for hours and hours (logged 3 more yesterday) with the striker pins. If I move them inward they drag. If I move them outward the problem gets worse. I've removed intrusive plastic from around the caged nuts to allow for more play, tried many different shims and tightnesses, ground the heads, etc.

I did notice that the hinge bolts seem to be shifted towards the inside of the car (meaning that the door is shifted *away* from the car) by a pretty wide margin... pics:

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=16785&d=1361637365

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=16786&d=1361637371

I have also noticed that the gap from the T panel to door (side to side) is much larger on the passenger side than the driver's side. Would there be anything gained by loosening those hinge bolts and pushing the door inward a bit? I'm worried that the misalignment could be tweaking the door, and the water/air seal certainly isn't what it could/should be at that trailing edge. Also the gap between the bottom of the door and the side sill is larger at the rear than the front, since it isn't coming all the way in. I don't think it's an issue of realigning the rear quarter since proper alignment can be achieved by pressing harder.

[David T]

Remove both front and rear latches from the door, clean and relubricate them and then reinstall them. Go over the internal linkage adjustments several times. Now try closing the door and the latches should both click into the 1st and second locking positions simultaneously if the anchor pins are adjusted well. Once you have the door closing well you adjust the adjacent panels to the level of the door if you have to.
David Teitelbaum

[jawn101]

I know that's the normal process, but like I said - the rear quarter lines up perfectly if you press the door harder so the second latch engages. The front and rear first detent engage at the same time, but not the second. Those factors are what made me wonder if the door might need to be shifted inboard at the rear edge a bit.

[Byrne H&A]

We use the following procedure in aligning the door to the body.
1. Remove door strut
2. Pop door open
3. Remove striker pins
4. Remove outer door seals
5. Loosen door hinges
6. Apply small amount of oil above and below hinge bolts
7. Lower door slowly and let free fall last several inches (repeat free fall several times and close firmly by hand each time)
8. Tighten hinge nuts until just snug
9. Repeat #7
10. Repeat #8
11. Repeat #7 and # 8 until door hinge nuts show no movement then tighten each firmly
12. Lean against door and inspect alignment, repeat procedures #5, 7 and 8 if necessary
13. Set one striker pin at a time.
14. Striker pin adjusts in a rectangular box configuration: left/ right, up/down ( there are effectively six positions.)
15. Striker pin adjustment is trial and error but note you moves and result
16. Replace outer door seals flush and only barely above edge of fender. There is no need to slam doors.

[B]NEVER DRIVE WITH DOOR OPEN, IT IS A SERVERE STRAIN ON DOOR AS WELL AS HINGE and causes misalignment

[David T]

I forgot to mention, when you close the doors, especially when you are checking things, you always close the door by pressing on the rub rail at about the center of the door. By pressing over by the lock cylinder you are too close to one side and may be tweaking (bending) the door slightly as you close it.
David Teitelbaum

[Rich]

I forgot to mention, when you close the doors, especially when you are checking things, you always close the door by pressing on the rub rail at about the center of the door.

+ 1 on this.

Note that this fore-aft location for proper door closing from the outside as David describes is in line fore-aft with the inside door pull handle and strap location. Think about it.

[Rich]

And on a related note having only to do with door-closing techniques, not specifically about doors bending or aligning, try using only the heel or edge of the hand to push the door closed.

There is normally much less skin oil there than there is on your fingers, hence the door will get fewer oily prints on the stainless than it will if it's closed using the open palm of the hand or fingertips. Kids and newcomers are of course excused from this suggestion. Just wipe the door clean after them...

[jawn101]

+ 1 on this.

Note that this fore-aft location for proper door closing from the outside as David describes is in line fore-aft with the inside door pull handle and strap location. Think about it.

Interesting, I was always under the impression that the lock cylinder area is the strongest part of the door and was where you were supposed to push it closed. But it makes sense that you'd push on the outside from where you pull on the inside.

Either way... does it sound to folks like it might be worth trying Byrne's technique or might I be making a bad situation worse attempting that?

[Jonathan]

Hey Jon,

My doors do basically the same thing you have described. Push hard or they don't get into that second click of the latch mechanism.

I also had it recommended to me to take the latches out and clean them. I have it on my winter list and it should be easier now as I'm finally familiar with taking the door panels apart to access the internals.

Cleaning the latches is what I would try first before making adjustments to the hinges.

[jawn101]

Hey Jon,

My doors do basically the same thing you have described. Push hard or they don't get into that second click of the latch mechanism.

I also had it recommended to me to take the latches out and clean them. I have it on my winter list and it should be easier now as I'm finally familiar with taking the door panels apart to access the internals.

Cleaning the latches is what I would try first before making adjustments to the hinges.

Fair enough... My very favorite job is door work.... :(

I guess I have to do the other window motor anyway and the key lock rod is a little too long. So there's multiple jobs to do. I will give it a shot before adjusting anything else. On the plus side at least the door shuts very smoothly now, even if it's not all the way sealed.

[DMC5180]

Adjusting doors is a bit of a black art. As was mentioned earlier get the doors to open and close without dragging on the seals first. IF the door has a slight tweak or twist you may never achieve that goal. I have the latest version of Inner door seals installed. The drivers side works fine, the passenger side does not. It's kind of odd too. It used to be just the opposite. The passenger side with the old worn in seal worked fine. The driver side would drag, pinch and tear the seal. I've been chasing the passenger problem now for awhile. Silicone lubricants on the seal only work to mask the problem rather than fix it.

In my working with the door I discovered "OTHER" fitment compromises with the panels mainly front fenders. On most cars I see a raised top of the fender where it meets the door (1/4-3/8") I figured out the reason for this. It has to do with Shimming the top of the fender UP to be level with the closed HOOD. I discovered this by accident one day. I was working at removing rusted screws along the top of the fender and noticed the stacks of shimming washers between the fender and underbody. Just for kicks, I removed all the shims and secured the top down in a few places. Low and behold guess what happened. The top rear of the fender lined up perfectly with the door corner. However now there was a 1/4" height difference between the fender and closed hood. What I discovered there is that the hood SEAL thickness holds the hood up from matching the fender. Its as if the engineers forgot to take into account the seal thickness. The reason I mention this is because if you Play with the striker pins in an effort to match the front fender. It will likely cause that latch to close first before the rear latch. If you remove the front striker pin and just close the door with the rear latch. I'm guessing you will have the the rear panel lined up pretty close, but the front will be sitting below the top of the front fender. As you can see one thing effects another and it all becomes a compromise.

[jackb]

I have the same problem as the OP. I first noticed it after I noticed the door hinge bolts were a little loose and I tightened them (apparently not in the exact spot they need to be).
Messing with the doors is something I am not super-comfortable doing alone, I'd rather have someone around who's been-there-done-that so I don't make it worse. It's a job I'll keep on hold until I attend a tech session.

[jawn101]

I have the same problem as the OP. I first noticed it after I noticed the door hinge bolts were a little loose and I tightened them (apparently not in the exact spot they need to be).
Messing with the doors is something I am not super-comfortable doing alone, I'd rather have someone around who's been-there-done-that so I don't make it worse. It's a job I'll keep on hold until I attend a tech session.

I'm feeling and appreciating your conundrum... I've been warned away from touching the doors by too many people at too many different times. There hasn't been much I've been uncomfortable working with since I got the car, but those doors.....

Times like this I wish we had a DMC-NorCal :)

[Jonathan]

Times like this I wish we had a DMC-NorCal :)

Right with ya Jon. Just hoping DMC-Canada gets opened soon :)

[pezzonovante88]

Right with ya Jon. Just hoping DMC-Canada gets opened soon :)

Tell me about it!

[LordFly]

Right with ya Jon. Just hoping DMC-Canada gets opened soon :)

I'm putting in my vote for this one too!

[jawn101]

So I guess my first tests will be to:
- remove the front striker and see if the rear latch engages fully and more easily
- pull apart the door and remove the latches for cleaning.
- do a lock and latch alignment
- unrelated: install A1 window regulator since I have it laying around and I'd rather minimize trips into the doors if possible

I will also try pulling off the inner door seal, if I can do so without messing up my new headliner too badly, to see if that does anything for me.

It will have to wait a few days though, as the car has no muffler or alternator right now.

I'm still very open to other suggestions and ideas though. Have any of you guys who've restored tons of cars (Dave S or Josh maybe?) ever run into this?

[Delorean02378]

Aligning the doors and getting the latches to secure properly is one of the most frustrating things to do on a Delorean for me. My dad's car (02378) has issues with the driver's side door and I've spend hours and hours trying to get it right and it's still not latching correctly. FRUSTRATING. This is one job I don't mind paying someone to do. Fortunately when I lived on Long Island I had Rob align the doors on 15500 and they're as close to perfect as I've seen.

I really hope Rob comes to DCS 2014, if he'd take appointments prior to the show or afterwards, I'd be all over it.

It would be nice to have Chris Nicholson fixing stainlesss and Rob adjusting doors during the next show. These are two things I'll leave to the pros.

[mluder]

I'll throw annother possibility at you... What if your door is bent?

Mine is - Driver's side door was racked at some point. Best guess is the previous owner drove into or out of a garage with the door open and hit the edge. Now the front edge is not square and bends down slightly so I cannot get correct alignment at the hood and rub strip (you can even see the bend along the side windsheild trim) and the aft end drags on the striker and fiberglass moulding panel. It's so bad that the P.O. ground the end of the striker pin and theres a huge gouge in the plastic trim piece from the latch screw head draggin on it.

I have tried and tried and I've gotten it best as possible. One day I'll end up replacing the door completely just not looking forward to the cost associated with it or I would have done it already.

Cheers
Steven

[SS Spoiler]

I've heard that you can eliminate the front lock rod [not latch rod] and the door is easier to adjust. The rear lock is all we need to keep out the rifraff. Did it on mine with no problems.

[jawn101]

I'll throw annother possibility at you... What if your door is bent?

Mine is - Driver's side door was racked at some point. Best guess is the previous owner drove into or out of a garage with the door open and hit the edge. Now the front edge is not square and bends down slightly so I cannot get correct alignment at the hood and rub strip (you can even see the bend along the side windsheild trim) and the aft end drags on the striker and fiberglass moulding panel. It's so bad that the P.O. ground the end of the striker pin and theres a huge gouge in the plastic trim piece from the latch screw head draggin on it.

I have tried and tried and I've gotten it best as possible. One day I'll end up replacing the door completely just not looking forward to the cost associated with it or I would have done it already.

Cheers
Steven

I don't think that's the case here, but I remember your story from another thread. Really a shame, in fact I think of it every time I'm tempted to back out of the garage with the door open just to move the car from one side to the other. And then I don't do it. :)

I think there's enough room for adjustment between the hinges and the striker pins to make it work correctly, I'm just not the right person to take on that task. I wish I knew who that person was and that they would come to my house though.

[mluder]

I don't think that's the case here, but I remember your story from another thread. Really a shame, in fact I think of it every time I'm tempted to back out of the garage with the door open just to move the car from one side to the other. And then I don't do it. :)

I think there's enough room for adjustment between the hinges and the striker pins to make it work correctly, I'm just not the right person to take on that task. I wish I knew who that person was and that they would come to my house though.

When it comes to doors and alignment the DMC shops are your best bet. No one (almost) has experience with the unique geometry involved.
You could always road trip to LA and visit DMCCA. I've used going to the DMCNW shop in Seattle as an excuse for a mini vacation myself although it's not quite as far as you'd have to drive.

Cheers.
Steven

[jawn101]

When it comes to doors and alignment the DMC shops are your best bet. No one (almost) has experience with the unique geometry involved.
You could always road trip to LA and visit DMCCA. I've used going to the DMCNW shop in Seattle as an excuse for a mini vacation myself although it's not quite as far as you'd have to drive.

Cheers.
Steven

Yeah, I hear ya. There's a short list of things which fall into the "too specialized for me to tackle myself" category that I'd love to get done but it's just such a PITA for me to get down there. If I had my druthers, I'd have new roof seals put in, the doors aligned, the whole body regrained, my cracked louver repaired and the fascias painted.