Why The Toll Booth Windows?

[LordFly]

One thing I have never been able to find an answer for is WHY John went with the toll booth windows, rather than a regular window. I know originally it was to be a half sliding window (which I personally am glad did not make it to production). I would think weight wise it would of been almost identical, maybe a slightly larger window motor. Was it just a physical constraint because the door is so narrow at the bottom? I imagine the designers and engineers could have figured out a way to make the door slightly wider to accommodate the window if that was the only problem. Anyone know the story behind it?

[pezzonovante88]

One thing I have never been able to find an answer for is WHY John went with the toll booth windows, rather than a regular window. I know originally it was to be a half sliding window (which I personally am glad did not make it to production). I would think weight wise it would of been almost identical, maybe a slightly larger window motor. Was it just a physical constraint because the door is so narrow at the bottom? I imagine the designers and engineers could have figured out a way to make the door slightly wider to accommodate the window if that was the only problem. Anyone know the story behind it?

From what I've heard and understand, it's because the shape and size of the door could not accommodate the full size/shape of the window. Personally, I like the toll booth window. It adds character and is kind of exotic.

[thirdmanj]

From what I've heard and understand, it's because the shape and size of the door could not accommodate the full size/shape of the window. Personally, I like the toll booth window. It adds character is kind of exotic.

Yes, that and structural integrity as I understand it.

[Jonathan]

Without knowing any back story specific to the DMC, I'd say it just came down to geometry.

If you stand at the side of one of your doors, and imagined the full height window "rolling down", this piece of glass would go into the door and end up protruding from a portion of the door. i.e. it would stick out the side or right out the middle of the stainless.

Similar to why the windows in the rear doors of many four door sedans don't go all the way down. If they did, they might be protruding out of the door and into the wheel well. You can't do that of course. If you ever heard someone complaining about "ahh, this car has child safety windows in the back, it sucks, they don't go all the way down," they didn't understand the geometry.

Glass doesn't bend. It's pretty much that simple.

[LordFly]

From what I've heard and understand, it's because the shape and size of the door could not accommodate the full size/shape of the window.

That's kind of what I figured. But if that was the only reason, why not of just modified the shape of the door, like so....
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[thirdmanj]

That's kind of what I figured. But if that was the only reason, why not of just modified the shape of the door, like so....
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Also, you can't very well advertise a "luxury sports car" that uses the same window tech as an old VW Bus, or a Fiat.

[Farrar]

There is considerable twist in the door when it is opened and closed. A full-sized window would mean more twist if the door were opened/closed with the window down. Not good.

[LordFly]

Also, you can't very well advertise a "luxury sports car" that uses the same window tech as an old VW Bus, or a Fiat.

Bugatti seems to be getting away with it on their Veyron....

[thirdmanj]

Bugatti seems to be getting away with it on their Veyron....

I wouldn't consider Bugatti to be competing in the luxury sports car market the way the DeLorean was in her day. Those "cars" are beasts, and all about extreme weight minimization and maximin power. So the two are not really comparable I don't think.

[Jonathan]

That's kind of what I figured. But if that was the only reason, why not of just modified the shape of the door, like so....
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Don't forget the door has a crease around where the rub strip is. The angle changes. A flat piece of glass would not easily travel through the entire length of this space.

EDIT: look at the door from the front looking back. Think 3 dimensionally.

[LordFly]

There is considerable twist in the door when it is opened and closed. A full-sized window would mean more twist if the door were opened/closed with the window down. Not good.

I think you may be on to something with this. The weight of a full window would likely of caused closing issues. With the window up, the door would have sprung open, or with the window down would of fallen closed. That much weight that far from the pivot point could certainly cause some issues. This might also explain the reasoning behind the original sliding window. Weight transferred forward or backward would of had zero effect on the weight of the door relative to its hinge point.

That makes a lot more sense than the actual shape of the door. I think that solves the mystery. Thanks :)

[thirdmanj]

I think you may be on to something with this. The weight of a full window would likely of caused closing issues. With the window up, the door would have sprung open, or with the window down would of fallen closed. That much weight that far from the pivot point could certainly cause some issues. This might also explain the reasoning behind the original sliding window. Weight transferred forward or backward would of had zero effect on the weight of the door relative to its hinge point.

That makes a lot more sense than the actual shape of the door. I think that solves the mystery. Thanks :)

Also known as "structural integrity". :p

[ILM1010]

I like to order lots of big bags of food and pull up to the drive thru window and cram the bags thru the little window while they stare at me. then i close the little window and give them a snotty look

[thirdmanj]

I like to order lots of big bags of food and pull up to the drive thru window and cram the bags thru the little window while they stare at me. then i close the little window and give them a snotty look

Really?! You don't just pop the door for the wow factor? :lol:

[LordFly]

Also known as "structural integrity". :p

I wouldn't say structural integrity so much. I think it just had to do with the ability to open and close the doors consistently. Imagine have 50lbs attached to your elbows and raising your arms. Now move the 50lbs out to your wrists and try it.

The Bricklin had full roll down windows, but it also had pneumatic doors. Likely for this exact reason.

[bikergurl2000]

I like to order lots of big bags of food and pull up to the drive thru window and cram the bags thru the little window while they stare at me. then i close the little window and give them a snotty look

What type of food? I normally just open the door or go inside. If the food isn't too delicate I suppose you could just smash the bag until it fits through the toll booth window.

[Farrar]

The weight of a full window would likely of caused closing issues.

That too, but have you ever looked carefully at the "roof" portion of a DeLorean door when it's opened? There's some twist to it, from corner to corner, as it goes up. Anyway, that's what I was talking about.

(Makes me think: if weight were the main issue, then eventually someone may come up with a carbon fiber inner door skin and put full-sized windows in his/her D...)

[LordFly]

That too, but have you ever looked carefully at the "roof" portion of a DeLorean door when it's opened? There's some twist to it, from corner to corner, as it goes up. Anyway, that's what I was talking about.

(Makes me think: if weight were the main issue, then eventually someone may come up with a carbon fiber inner door skin and put full-sized windows in his/her D...)

Ahh, I wasn't thinking about structural integrity of the roof, but yes, that may of been a bit of an issue as well.

I don't think it was the overall weight that was an issue, it would of been the perceived weight change from the pivot point that would of been the issue. Properly set torsion bars that opened the doors with the windows up, wouldn't of had enough torque to open the doors with the windows down. Although interestingly, a great deal of R&D was put into a composite roof and doors. Just didn't make it to production. But if anything that would of worsened the problem, as the weight of glass wouldn't of changed. It would of just made the window up torque required that much different from the window down torque required.

[Farrar]

Ahh, I wasn't thinking about structural integrity of the roof, but yes, that may of been a bit of an issue as well.

OK, sorry. I was being unclear. When I say "the 'roof' portion of the doors," I mean the top portion of the doors that becomes part of the roof when closed. It's the smallest portion of the door, from the hinge to the first bend. Does that make sense?

And yes, the torsion is a huge issue here.

[LordFly]

"the 'roof' portion of the doors,"

My bad, I only half read that. I saw 'roof' and skipped over the rest. But I could see how that section would also not benfit from moving weight away from the pivot point.

[Jonathan]

I think you may be on to something with this. The weight of a full window would likely of caused closing issues. With the window up, the door would have sprung open, or with the window down would of fallen closed. That much weight that far from the pivot point could certainly cause some issues.

A rough calculation of the entire window area comes to about 500 square inches (ball park). 1/2" thick glass is 0.046 pounds/sq-in. This would make a 1/2" thick piece of glass this size about 23 pounds. I think the glass is thinner than 1/2", so say the glass would weigh, what, 10-15 pounds, is that reasonable?


This might also explain the reasoning behind the original sliding window. Weight transferred forward or backward would of had zero effect on the weight of the door relative to its hinge point.

That makes a lot more sense than the actual shape of the door. I think that solves the mystery. Thanks :)

This is not correct. Weight transferred forward or backward would indeed have an impact on the hinge point... because there are two hinges.

Using your own analogy, instead of putting your 50 pound weights on your elbow versus your wrists, try moving all 100 pounds over to one arm. You have shifted the weight to one side versus the other and this would affect how the door would open.


I wouldn't say structural integrity so much. I think it just had to do with the ability to open and close the doors consistently. Imagine have 50lbs attached to your elbows and raising your arms. Now move the 50lbs out to your wrists and try it.

The Bricklin had full roll down windows, but it also had pneumatic doors. Likely for this exact reason.

Your photo shop of the door angle might have affected the structural integrity as well. That angle may have been chosen on purpose. Imagine if the angle was gone and it was squared off? Now the structure would anchor against the sill at the bottom only instead of being able to anchor partly on the quarter panel as it does. It was likely partly cosmetic to pick those angles, but likely structural as well.


Really?! You don't just pop the door for the wow factor? :lol:

Yea mon, I always go for the door open wow factor in drive thru :) A large coffee won't go through the window anyway :P


Ahh, I wasn't thinking about structural integrity of the roof, but yes, that may of been a bit of an issue as well.

I don't think it was the overall weight that was an issue, it would of been the perceived weight change from the pivot point that would of been the issue. Properly set torsion bars that opened the doors with the windows up, wouldn't of had enough torque to open the doors with the windows down. Although interestingly, a great deal of R&D was put into a composite roof and doors. Just didn't make it to production. But if anything that would of worsened the problem, as the weight of glass wouldn't of changed. It would of just made the window up torque required that much different from the window down torque required.

I think you are giving the weight of the window glass too much credit for impacting door opening. If it indeed weighs 10-15 pounds, and that is part of the door which has an overall weight of about 90 pounds (not sure on that 90 pounds number, ball park perhaps), it is not more than 11-17% of the weight.

If you think of the lever arm theory, where the further away from the pivot point the weight is, the greater the effect it has, the window is quite close to the pivot point when up, and one height away when down. On its way down though, the bulk of the window and its weight has remained unchanged as it still is in the centre. Think of the middle of the glass being in the same spot and you are moving the top down to the bottom. Minimal impact.

However, out of the 90 pound door, much of that weight is already on the bottom portion, or the portion farthest away from the pivot point. And that is the stuff that never moves, like the stainless, door latches, window motors, etc.

Again, I don't think it was related much with weight as it was more to do with geometry.

It's okay though that they kept it somewhat simple for us instead of trying to get the whole window to roll down. Just imagine if they had designed other areas of the car more complicated than they needed to be. Like the angle drive... :)

[LordFly]

Using your own analogy, instead of putting your 50 pound weights on your elbow versus your wrists, try moving all 100 pounds over to one arm. You have shifted the weight to one side versus the other and this would affect how the door would open

I'm not trying to start an argument (especially with and ODOC member:) ) , but you're misusing the analogy terribly. Moving all 100 pounds to one arm would be the equivalent of opening the drivers window by sliding it onto the passengers door. Yes, sliding the window forward or back would have some impact on the hinges, but from the torsion bars point of view, the door is just as difficult to open. Weight has not shifted closer or farther from the fulcrum.


I think you are giving the weight of the window glass too much credit for impacting door opening. If it indeed weighs 10-15 pounds, and that is part of the door which has an overall weight of about 90 pounds (not sure on that 90 pounds number, ball park perhaps), it is not more than 11-17% of the weight.

I don't know any of the weights either, but these sound reasonable. I think 11-17% is a pretty reasonable amount, you have to remember you're looking at torsion bar torque. If you took 17% off the 2400 inch-lb spec, you've got a 1990 inch-lb torsion bar, which is the equivalent of the door be open about 25°. Imagine loosening your torsion bar off that far and see how effortlessly your door opens. I think it's quite plausible that shifting the entire window would of caused a significant amount of increased door effort. I assume that's why the Bricklin used hydraulics to open/close it's gullwing doors.

But we're mostly guessing. Unless someone pulls their window out and tapes it to the lower section of the door, we don't really know. Any volunteers? ;)

[Dangermouse]

Surely it is more to do with the physical design of the door itself. Not only does it have a large angle on the rear edge (as pointed out above) but there is also a sharp horizontal crease lengthwise. That, as well as all the components that need to be mounted inside the door space (two latches, lock, solenoid, multiple lever arms and pivots for the latches, as well as the window motor and guides) there is just no more room!

Having said all that, didn't One of the Brandy's fit an almost-full-sized window in one of heir cars? Don't recall how they did it.

[LordFly]

Correct, Bob Brandy did a FULL WINDOW MOD (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?1153-Bob-Brandy-s-fullsize-windows&highlight=brandy), sort of. "Fullsize" is a bit of a stretch. The windows he used are plastic, not glass. They over all are 20 lbs lighter, and as he says in the thread, the torsion bars needs to be re-adjusted. So I think it's quite reasonable that if the weight a glass vs plastic requires a torsion bar adjustment, shifting a glass window around would have a similar effect. It might be more of a pain in the ass than anything else, but when designing a luxury sports car with gullwing doors, I would consider it a pretty big design flaw if they didn't open and close very well, just because the window is up or down.

[Nicholas R]

I believe the plastic is also crucial in that mod, not only because of the weight, but because it is flexible. They had always talked about making this a kit but never did. It's a shame; I certainly would have bought it, plastic or not.

Also scrapped from that thread, here is a good pic:
http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3417&d=1313084981

[Jonathan]

I'm not trying to start an argument (especially with and ODOC member:) ) , but you're misusing the analogy terribly. Moving all 100 pounds to one arm would be the equivalent of opening the drivers window by sliding it onto the passengers door. Yes, sliding the window forward or back would have some impact on the hinges, but from the torsion bars point of view, the door is just as difficult to open. Weight has not shifted closer or farther from the fulcrum.

The analogy I was trying to use was comparing a single door to a person. Each of your arms represent one hinge on the same door. Your left arm is the left hinge. Your right arm is the right hinge. If you were to raise both arms at the same time with the weight on them, this is your door moving up. What I was trying to compare was if you shifted weight on the door all the way towards the mirror, for example, or the other way towards the rear of the door, it would be like moving more weight to one arm versus the other. I had thought this would compare to the window sliding forward and back like the proto windows. You said it had no effect, and I thought it would. Might not be much given the weights of things, but some effect it would have, even if slight. It wasn't clear you meant the torsion/lever arm effect only, I was looking at it from an unbalanced/twisting point of view.

No argument here. I don't feel there's any point discussing it further as it seems the verdict has already been decided on. When you get your own car, you can do any experiment you want to try to prove your theories. The first time you find your doors don't come down to meet the striker pins evenly you'll understand.

[Patrick C]

I believe the plastic is also crucial in that mod, not only because of the weight, but because it is flexible. They had always talked about making this a kit but never did. It's a shame; I certainly would have bought it, plastic or not.

Also scrapped from that thread, here is a good pic:
http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3417&d=1313084981

Its about the ONLY thing I like on will.I.am's DeLorean, but the windows look amazing.

http://ll-media.tmz.com/2012/09/13/0913-will-i-am-car-logo-article-1.jpg

[Jonathan]

Too late to edit my post...

On a lighter note... "weight has nothing to do with it!" :) hehe


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPkBG-mymAE

[LordFly]

The analogy I was trying to use was comparing a single door to a person. Each of your arms represent one hinge on the same door. ... It wasn't clear you meant the torsion/lever arm effect only, I was looking at it from an unbalanced/twisting point of view.

I guess maybe I didn't explain my example as best I could of. I was looking just at the ability to raise/lower the door, thinking of the shoulder muscles as the torsion bar. I can see how shifting forward/back could put a twist on the door messing with the strikers. But I would think if that could cause problems, surely shifting the weight lower would cause at least as many problems. Especially since it would be the full window, whereas the sliding window would only be half the window at most.

[David T]

Bob B DID do a full sized window. It was plastic but only because he didn't want to spend big bucks at the time to have a piece of safety glass specially made. JZD saw it and was VERY impressed. He made the comment he should have had Bob B working for him because he had several engineers working on that problem and this was the best they could come up with! As for the weight and balance, that problem could be overcome by having a compensating balance weight if necessary. As the window goes down the balance weight moves up. Like a traction elevator.
David Teitelbaum

[Farrar]

We are working on making kits available for the drivers door since this is the window that most drivers need to fully open, quoth Bob Brandys in August of 2011.

I wonder if this never happened because people wanted their windows to match...

[LordFly]

that problem could be overcome by having a compensating balance weight if necessary. As the window goes down the balance weight moves up. Like a traction elevator.
David Teitelbaum

That's a good point David. That would of solved the shifting weight problem. It would of added overall weight and more complexity, but nothing that couldn't be made to work. I guess it was a combination of problems that lead to that particular window design choice. I'm in no way complaining. I like it, adds character. But when people ask me about it, I want to have something to answer with :)

As for Bob's full window mod, it's not for me. While it might be more convenient, I think it takes something away from the car. The same way converting to regular side hinged doors would. But it is kind of a cool mod. I certainly wouldn't discourage anyone from doing so, if that was their preference.

[Dangermouse]

But it is kind of a cool mod.

No, no it isn't. Don't even think that way

Unless you are making a convertible :hihi2:

[mluder]

Really?! You don't just pop the door for the wow factor? :lol:

I can't do it... A friend of mine loves to take his car throught hte drive through and he just opens the door. I'm afraid I'll get too close and then not be able to open it. ... and that they'll see I'm not wearing pants. :hihi2:

Seriously though - Anybody ever have trouble at automated parking garage gates - as in, can't reach the ticket to get the cross arm to go up so you have to half open the door, reach through the window, barely grab by your finger tips, and hope you dont drop it?

Cheers,
Steven

[Farrar]

I open the door before I get to the speaker and just drive all the way through with the door open. Then after I get my bag of anti-health or cup of alertness, I pull forward and shut the door.

[galbiati]

One thing I find about the toll windows that sucks is that the rubber is right at my eye level, the window should have been either bigger or smaller, its right in the field of vision. I'm 6'1" average.

[LordFly]

No, no it isn't. Don't even think that way

Unless you are making a convertible :hihi2:

Convertible you say.....? ;) Roadster (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?687-DeLorean-Roadster-Convertible-Sketch-to-Stainless-(photos)&highlight=roadster)

[DMC5180]

To bad they did not try something closer to the Early to Mid 90's Subaru SVX. Which was a Guigaro based design 10 years after the DMC-12.

Btw: our Tool booth windows are more than twice the opening of a Lamborgini Countach. The partial drop glass only opens about 2 inches.

[dmcjohn]

Surely it is more to do with the physical design of the door itself. Not only does it have a large angle on the rear edge (as pointed out above) but there is also a sharp horizontal crease lengthwise...

The design of the door is only an issue if you make a fullsize window which goes straight down. If it was designed to travel down and forwards at an angle, I think it would work, and I am assuming this is what Will.i.am paid someone to do on his car.

I did a mockup of it a few months back as full size windows would be something I'd be very interested in doing - original post here:

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?295-West-Coast-Customs-Will-I-Am-s-custom-DeLor-I-Am&p=60921#post60921

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I wouldn't really call Bob Brandy's solution fullsize - from the pictures it looks like it would be awkward to drive his solution with your arm out the window, unless you have your seats pushed really far forward. It looks like the opening starts ahead of where your shoulder would be with the seat in a normal position, but I could never seem to get Bob to answer any of my questions on his design for some reason.

John

[Dangermouse]

Convertible you say.....? ;) Roadster (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?687-DeLorean-Roadster-Convertible-Sketch-to-Stainless-(photos)&highlight=roadster)

Yes, I am aware of that car. hence, my comment.


The design of the door is only an issue if you make a fullsize window which goes straight down. If it was designed to travel down and forwards at an angle, I think it would work, and I am assuming this is what Will.i.am paid someone to do on his car.

I did a mockup of it a few months back as full size windows would be something I'd be very interested in doing - original post here:

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?295-West-Coast-Customs-Will-I-Am-s-custom-DeLor-I-Am&p=60921#post60921

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I wouldn't really call Bob Brandy's solution fullsize - from the pictures it looks like it would be awkward to drive his solution with your arm out the window, unless you have your seats pushed really far forward. It looks like the opening starts ahead of where your shoulder would be with the seat in a normal position, but I could never seem to get Bob to answer any of my questions on his design for some reason.

John

I recall that mock-up John. Something for a long winters evening to work on, perhaps ??? :)

[jamesrguk]

I have to chip in here....

Having seen the pilot car restored by chris Nicholson in the UK which has the early prototype sliding windows you realise how much the doors twist without the strength of the window.

I remember Chris saying that the doors on the pilot car were forever going out of alignment and they wouldn't tolerate being pushed closed from different angles on the door.

I'm not saying they couldn't have made full size windows, but I think it would have involved a fair amount of redesign to add strength to the doors in order it for work.

Just my 2p (uk pence that is)

James

[LordFly]

The design of the door is only an issue if you make a fullsize window which goes straight down. If it was designed to travel down and forwards at an angle, I think it would work, and I am assuming this is what Will.i.am paid someone to do on his car.

I did a mockup of it a few months back as full size windows would be something I'd be very interested in doing - original post here:

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?295-West-Coast-Customs-Will-I-Am-s-custom-DeLor-I-Am&p=60921#post60921
I wouldn't really call Bob Brandy's solution fullsize - from the pictures it looks like it would be awkward to drive his solution with your arm out the window, unless you have your seats pushed really far forward. It looks like the opening starts ahead of where your shoulder would be with the seat in a normal position, but I could never seem to get Bob to answer any of my questions on his design for some reason.

I was looking for this earlier, I just couldn't find the thread. I knew I'd seen it not too long ago. I like this design a lot better. One thing a lot of people don't realize is that most windows have a curve to them, they are not flat. So they do not simply slide straight down, they tend to follow a bit of an arc, which is how most windows clear the door skins. The only problem is that custom glass is EXPENSIVE. And rolling up plastic windows that are only supported on one full side and one bottom corner kinda sucks, trust me ;)
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[Nicholas R]

No, no it isn't. Don't even think that way

Unless you are making a convertible :hihi2:

Speak for yourself! If Bob actually did make a kit for this, I would gladly be one of his first customers. :biggrin:

[vwdmc16]

The design of the door is only an issue if you make a fullsize window which goes straight down. If it was designed to travel down and forwards at an angle, I think it would work, and I am assuming this is what Will.i.am paid someone to do on his car.

I did a mockup of it a few months back as full size windows would be something I'd be very interested in doing - original post here:

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?295-West-Coast-Customs-Will-I-Am-s-custom-DeLor-I-Am&p=60921#post60921

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John



I did a mock up like that last year, on more thing to keep in mind is that you need to account for another few inches of glass for the window regulator to grab onto inside the door, but I think it could still work... with ALOT of internal door redesigning.

If I ever come across a cheap used door, Id love to try and make that idea work.

[Jonathan]

One thing I find about the toll windows that sucks is that the rubber is right at my eye level, the window should have been either bigger or smaller, its right in the field of vision. I'm 6'1" average.

Haha, yea, that's exactly how I feel about the top of the steering wheel. I've never been able to naturally see the top row of warning lights on my car with peering around the top of the wheel/bottom edge of the binnacle.

[SS Spoiler]

I have such a long torso that my head hit the door when I put in sheepskin seat covers. In order to see the instruments I reangled the binacle.

[Jonathan]

I have such a long torso that my head hit the door when I put in sheepskin seat covers. In order to see the instruments I reangled the binacle.

I think my length is on the top half too. I can't lean over to see myself in the rear view mirror because my head is normally right up in that indentation on the top of the door/roof. Black interior too. Claustrophobia? Sheesh... I just don't think about it :)

[Farrar]

I've never been able to naturally see the top row of warning lights on my car with peering around the top of the wheel/bottom edge of the binnacle.

Weird -- I have this problem and I thought it was just because I am too short! Sorry, off topic I know.

[Jonathan]

Weird -- I have this problem and I thought it was just because I am too short! Sorry, off topic I know.

Sounds like a few of us need a Knight Rider steering wheel mod... :)

[Farrar]

Sounds like a few of us need a Knight Rider steering wheel mod... :)

I just put the steering wheel up as far as it will go. Unfortunately, it doesn't like to stay there. (Probably because my car is missing the steering column bushing.)

Back on topic: I'd probably do the full-size window mod on my car, but only if it were available for both windows. I'm sure, though, that if it has taken Bob this long and longer to produce a kit, then it will be prohibitively expensive. Two years of R&D can't come cheap.

[eagle-co94]

Just an FYI, a complete door (minus the fixed glass) is roughly 77lbs.

I'm 6'1" as well, but my height is in my legs so the D is a perfect fit for me.

[eagle-co94]

...
http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3417&d=1313084981

And nobody commented on the leaking fire extinguisher?

[SS Spoiler]

What's with the dual batteries? BTTF conversion?

[Tillsy]

What's with the dual batteries? BTTF conversion?

Yes there are time circuits inside that cabin.

[EdR5150]

I took the pic after the CO2 system failed. It just happened to be a good pic of the window.

And nobody commented on the leaking fire extinguisher?

[Timebender]

Glass doesn't bend. It's pretty much that simple.

Actually it does now...

Corning Willow Glass (http://www.corning.com/displaytechnologies/en/products/flexible.aspx)

[Jonathan]

Actually it does now...

Corning Willow Glass (http://www.corning.com/displaytechnologies/en/products/flexible.aspx)

Sure, and maybe Scotty can slingshot around the sun to go to 1981 to tell JZD how to make the windshield out of transparent aluminum. The responses were to a thread asking why did they use toll booth windows when they designed the car? The thread wasn't titled "how would you design the windows today?"

[Timebender]

I don't think transparent aluminum they used was able to bend by hand though (if it was 1/4 inch or more...), well, not what they used since it had to be thick enough to handle the amount of water in the whale tank..

Anyway, back on to the topic. I like the toll booth windows. Makes it feel more custom and unique.

[Jonathan]

I don't think transparent aluminum they used was able to bend by hand though (if it was 1/4 inch or more...), well, not what they used since it had to be thick enough to handle the amount of water in the whale tank..

Wow. Apparently my sarcasm was a bit too subtle. Have a nice day!

[thirdmanj]

Wow. Apparently my sarcasm was a bit too subtle. Have a nice day!

Computer........ Helloooo, computer.

[galbiati]

Actually it does now...

Corning Willow Glass (http://www.corning.com/displaytechnologies/en/products/flexible.aspx)

My 1980 cutlass coupe had curved glass that went up and down in a track inside the door no problem.

[eagle-co94]

That may be curved, but not as much as the DeLorean's glass would be. Not to mention those Cutlass doors are over 4' long aren't they?

[Jonathan]

This subject is getting on my nerves... by try again to convey what I meant in the first place I will.

Why the toll booth windows? This was the original question. This implies (to me) that it is asking why the toll booth windows when the car was designed in 1981. So it doesn't mean how would you design it now if you had available to you technologies that either didn't exist or were not cost effective in 1981. I lump bendable glass and transparent aluminum in this group.

To me it also meant the question had to be answered addressing more than just the windows, but the door itself and all the things inside the door. Along the lines of glass doesn't bend, it wasn't meant to say glass can't be made in an arc or curve. But this is not what we have on the fixed glass portion of the door. Yes, you could have likely made a piece of glass that could curve through the insides of the door, but now the profile of the door and perhaps more things on the car would need to be redesigned.

I tried to give you a visual with these two photos. You can see the red outline to scale of the window. The best I can do to make it fit in the lower portion of the door is as you see it. No bending allowed. The bottom corners are very close to the edges of the outside surface of the door. Don't forget this glass is inside the door and you still need the thickness of the stainless going around it as is. If the glass was inside the door as shown, you would have no room left for things like the door handle lever, rods, lock solenoids, door locks themselves, latches, and I don't know where the window motor would fit either. Or that you had to go through the screws holding the mirror to the door. Don't forget also that right about where the rub strip is, the angle of the door changes. So a straight piece of glass is now going to protrude out the edge of the stainless... unless of course you can bend it.

The analogy with rear door windows in four door sedans wasn't meant to open the debate about whether you can fit something large into a small space. It was meant to say that, just like the DeLorean, you can't fold up the sheet of glass as you roll it down. IT DOESN'T BEND.

1709817099

[dmcjohn]

Hey Jonathan,

I think you're missing some points.

1. The entire window doesn't have to go down. Many cars have a small fixed triangular piece at the leading edge of the door, followed by the main part which goes down, and that wold be necessary here to get this to work.

2. The glass is not completely flat - I can see it being able to drop inside the door without protruding through the outer stainless skin as you pictured...

John

[Ryan King]

If I ever come across a cheap used door, Id love to try and make that idea work.

DMC-CA has a huge stock pile of used doors. So, get crackin!

[eagle-co94]

Silly me, but it appeared to me that your question was already answered several different ways, ie:

the weight of the window when down in order for the doors to still open properly,
the internal dimensions of the door,
for additional rigidity of the door.

Did you not like the answers that you got?

[Jonathan]

Silly me, but it appeared to me that your question was already answered several different ways, ie:

the weight of the window when down in order for the doors to still open properly,
the internal dimensions of the door,
for additional rigidity of the door.

Did you not like the answers that you got?

It was not my questions this thread asked about as I wasn't the OP. I suggested the reason was related to the physical size of non-deformable glass not fitting within the doors as to why they went with toll booth windows. Much like the same issue current vehicles have. My suggestion was dismissed for reasons I chose to try and refute. The weight or integrity of the structure wasn't what I was focusing on. I didn't agree with the validity of the reasons why the physical size suggestion was dismissed so attempted to defend it. It still doesn't seem to be understood so that's the end of it. Ultimately anything written here are all just unsubstantiated opinions unless Nick or someone comes along to comment. Run with whatever idea you want, none of them matter 32 years later. Have a nice night.

[LordFly]

Did you not like the answers that you got?

I was quite happy with my own reasoning back in post #11 (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?6433-Why-The-Toll-Booth-Windows&p=93166&viewfull=1#post93166), but I'm still enjoying the discussion :)

[Ryan King]

It was not my questions this thread asked about as I wasn't the OP. I suggested the reason was related to the physical size of non-deformable glass not fitting within the doors as to why they went with toll booth windows. Much like the same issue current vehicles have. My suggestion was dismissed for reasons I chose to try and refute. The weight or integrity of the structure wasn't what I was focusing on. I didn't agree with the validity of the reasons why the physical size suggestion was dismissed so attempted to defend it. It still doesn't seem to be understood so that's the end of it. Ultimately anything written here are all just unsubstantiated opinions unless Nick or someone comes along to comment. Run with whatever idea you want, none of them matter 32 years later. Have a nice night.

17101

[dustybarn]

I suggest looking at this from the other direction. Consider the following scenario (which is pure speculation on my part):

The doors of the sliding-window pilot cars were observed to be insufficiently stiff, which seems to be confirmed by Chris N.

Perhaps the suggestion was then made to use the glass to stiffen the door. To do this most effectively, the window should encompass, in one piece, all four corners and at least part of all four sides of the aperture. Already the basic nature of the tollbooth windows is locked-in.

At this point DMC's engineers probably experimented with different configurations until they found what seemed to them to be the best compromise of aesthetics, usability, and available space within the door.

I like the tollbooth windows. To me they're just another lovable peculiarity that makes the D unique.

[vwdmc16]

DMC-CA has a huge stock pile of used doors. So, get crackin!

Cool, now i just need to get one for like $100-200 think that could be possible?

[eagle-co94]

Cool, now i just need to get one for like $100-200 think that could be possible?

Totally. I've got a damaged door for sale that I could possibly sell for $200.

[DMC5180]

Cool, now i just need to get one for like $100-200 think that could be possible?

I'd would imagine you could find one a little closer, Say a reasonable driving distance to pick up.


Totally. I've got a damaged door for sale that I could possibly sell for $200.

Don't forget the $200-$300 in shipping cost :rolleyes1:

[eagle-co94]

I'd would imagine you could find one a little closer, Say a reasonable driving distance to pick up.



Don't forget the $200-$300 in shipping cost :rolleyes1:

I take it you've never shipped with Greyhound?

[DMC5180]

I take it you've never shipped with Greyhound?

I have. Bumper cover in a in very large box about 10 years ago. $50 Back then. I know someone who recently ended up paying nearly $200 to ship a Louvre. 400 mi. Don't know what the shipping method was though. probably Freight.

[eagle-co94]

I just got a pair of Mercedes CLK seats to put into my G wagon for about $100 shipped across the state.

[EdR5150]

<bump>

Bob B has posted a 44 minute video on his Delorean Full Size Power Window Installation:

https://youtu.be/1S5KZhPozJc

He says the video was show over a 4 year period, but after watching the first part, it's closer to 20 years! There's a small appearance by JZD himself at the 1998 DCS.

[Rich W]

There's a small appearance by JZD himself at the 1998 DCS.

JZD at DCS 2000 in Cleveland.

[jamesrguk]

<bump>

Bob B has posted a 44 minute video on his Delorean Full Size Power Window Installation:

https://youtu.be/1S5KZhPozJc

He says the video was show over a 4 year period, but after watching the first part, it's closer to 20 years! There's a small appearance by JZD himself at the 1998 DCS.

Great video.

Originally when I heard plexi glass I thought hmmmm sounds cheap, but I have to say that installation looks really smart, and could certainly fool the non-DMC owner into thinking that was how they left the factory.

I'll stick with my toll booth windows, for the sheer novelty factor, but this is certainly a smart alternative.

I'm sure it does change the feal of the interior, and I'd welcome the increased air flow, even in the UK my air con gets a fair work out in the summer.

Many thanks for posting the link.

James