Piston sleeve moved ..

[krs09]

I was cleaning the engine block today and as we were getting ready to wrap up we put a little oil on the sleeve walls just to keep everything lubed. Now to make sure it was ready to go we gave the crankshaft a little spin. It was hard to turn but when it did the sleeve poped up with the piston. I was able to put the sleeve fulsh down again with a little wiggling but a few trys later it happened again. All the other sleeves stay put so I guess I have a new problem:angry0:. Im gonna let you guys break the bad news to me, what do ya think happened? Is there threads at the bottom of that slleve? It looked flush when I put it back in but really afraid to have it flush and just put the heads back on not knowing what happened. Any help at all would be great. Even better if anyone has a pic of a sleeve out of the engine to compare what the sleeve itself looks like

[TTait]

Bad news is relative. Probably the liner is fine, but fixing this is going to be a huge pain in the butt...

The car uses paper seals at the base of the liner, which is free to move up and down. Once a liner lifts, you have ruined the seal, and at a minimum will have to replace it.

I think you will have to invert the engine on a stand, remove the oil pan, then the lower crank case, bearings, crank, and maybe the pistons - then there is a procedure to measure the piston liner offset to the head mating surface and pick a color coded paper seal/spacer - replace those, and then rebuild the entire assembly again.

If I understand the procedure properly, its basically the most internal part of the engine - or perhaps secondary to the rings. Its probably the ultimate "while you are in there" situation.

I have not done the job, but this was explained to me in detail just before I pulled my heads with the warning to not let the liners pop up under any circumstances when removing the head, and to never ever try to turn the engine with the heads off.

I hope I'm wrong.

[ramblinmike]

Bad news is relative. Probably the liner is fine, but fixing this is going to be a huge pain in the butt...

The car uses paper seals at the base of the liner, which is free to move up and down. Once a liner lifts, you have ruined the seal, and at a minimum will have to replace it.

I think you will have to invert the engine on a stand, remove the oil pan, then the lower crank case, bearings, crank, and maybe the pistons - then there is a procedure to measure the piston liner offset to the head mating surface and pick a color coded paper seal/spacer - replace those, and then rebuild the entire assembly again.

If I understand the procedure properly, its basically the most internal part of the engine - or perhaps secondary to the rings. Its probably the ultimate "while you are in there" situation.

I have not done the job, but this was explained to me in detail just before I pulled my heads with the warning to not let the liners pop up under any circumstances when removing the head, and to never ever try to turn the engine with the heads off.

I hope I'm wrong.
I'm pretty sure you nailed it on the head. Complete teardown is now in the cards.

[Silverbullet]

Too late NOW... but there are metal braces, that the DMC people bolt to the top of the block, while the heads are off to prevent what happened to you... Like when they do a stage II...

[jmettee]

Yep, you gotta go in deep now. The cylinder locks (or simply using large fender washers) are very important for locking the liners in place when the heads are off. I would be planning to replace ALL 6 liner seals as you don't know that any of the other 5 haven't also moved.

[Bitsyncmaster]

You should have not turned the crank with heads off.

[David T]

You should have not turned the crank with heads off.

It is OK to turn the crank with the heads off , just not without liner locks in place. I agree ALL of the liner seals are now suspect and must be replaced. A big job. Might as well pull the motor and do it on a stand. You probably don't need bearings or rings but it should all be checked as long as you have to take it apart. Also check the "nip" aka liner protusion. It should be OK but be careful to keep all of the shims separated for each cylinder so you can put them back in the same place. Best to do each cylinder one-at-a-time to prevent any chance of mixing things up. You can make liner locks out of some bar stock. Put them on after getting the sleeves back in till you get the heads on.
David Teitelbaum

[Bitsyncmaster]

It is OK to turn the crank with the heads off , just not without liner locks in place. I agree ALL of the liner seals are now suspect and must be replaced. A big job. Might as well pull the motor and do it on a stand. You probably don't need bearings or rings but it should all be checked as long as you have to take it apart. Also check the "nip" aka liner protusion. It should be OK but be careful to keep all of the shims separated for each cylinder so you can put them back in the same place. Best to do each cylinder one-at-a-time to prevent any chance of mixing things up. You can make liner locks out of some bar stock. Put them on after getting the sleeves back in till you get the heads on.
David Teitelbaum

I would not trust the liner locks to hold tight enough to not compromize the seal if you turn the crank.

[David T]

I would not trust the liner locks to hold tight enough to not compromize the seal if you turn the crank.

It's fine. I just did my car and so did Justin. I agree the less you disturb the liners the better but you can move the crank if you have the liners locked down tight.
David Teitelbaum

[Silverbullet]

So.... at this point... which costs less and has more value... Fix the old or buy crate motor from 1981?

[Nicholas R]

So.... at this point... which costs less and has more value... Fix the old or buy crate motor from 1981?

Monetarily? Fixing the old one by far. Even time wise it's probably less. Either way the engine needs to come out. Once out it's just a couple hours of work. Plus why get stuck with a good prv in pieces? That's just wasteful, lol

[Delorean Industries]

So.... at this point... which costs less and has more value... Fix the old or buy crate motor from 1981?

Or a dpi spec build with new pistons and liners etc.

[krs09]

Thanks for all the feed back guys. All of you are on the money. I talked to Mike at DMCMW (great guy btw) and he said the same, all the sleeves should come out to make sure there is no leaks when it goes back together. The sleeves are free to move and just a paper seal holding it together, once the heads are compressed on they create the seal and hold tight. He did say that I really dont have to worry about the measuring part for the pistons, he said if I get the biggest shim available (on back order ofcourse) it'll be fine. The good news is that i already have the engine out on a stand and torn down to the block. I was resealing every gasket and seal in the engine. I was degreasing the sides of the block (to match the now very clean covers and pan) when I had this bright idea. Mike did say he is seeing more and more of this issue and its a good idea to do "while im there" even if they stayed soild. It just really sucks cause I was so close to just getting my heads back and putting everything back together and DRIVING it for the first time in my ownership. More hard work ahead. Thanks for all the help.. Spot on as usual.:thumbup2: .. Any pics of the piston locks or tool to hold down the sleeves.

[jmettee]

It's fine. I just did my car and so did Justin. I agree the less you disturb the liners the better but you can move the crank if you have the liners locked down tight.
David Teitelbaum

Agree. I borrowed David's liner lock set & later heard a suggestion to used the fender washers if a liner lock set is not available. I never tried to turn the engine. In fact, the liners were used for insurance in case I bumped a liner while cleaning up top or leaned on the car & it happened to roll & turn the engine (parking brake was set TIGHT to also prevent this). In other words, I was aware of the "danger" of having a liner come loose & took all precautions to prevent it.

[jmettee]

Any pics of the piston locks or tool to hold down the sleeves.

17750

[DMCVegas]

17750

Should there not be a 3rd liner lock there for the rear cylinder? The dummy bearing being the 4th that covers the opposite side for the front piston.

[dustybarn]

I didn't have liner locks when I had the heads off my car, but after reading so many warnings here I was careful to not even BREATHE on the engine until the heads were back on. If I did it again I'd make a set of liner locks.

Curiously, the only other experience I've had with a wet-liner engine is in my TR4, and it's the opposite. It uses copper gaskets at the bottom of the liners, and the liners are EXTREMELY well-piloted in the block. You have to really want those liners to come out, and even then there's no guarantee. The last time I pulled one I had to pound on it from the bottom with a hardwood block and a big hammer.

[Kenny_Z]

I found an old set of rear brake rotors work in a pinch. I wouldn't trust them to hold during a rotation but they were enough security for me while my heads were at the shop. Of course you can't clean any gasket material away with them taking up nearly the entire area.

[DMCMW Dave]

Should there not be a 3rd liner lock there for the rear cylinder? The dummy bearing being the 4th that covers the opposite side for the front piston.

There are only two per side. Each one covers two cylinders so that is all that is required.

You can also avoid accidently turning it over by simply leaving the transmission in neutral. This doesn't of course stop you from turning it over on purpose. . . .

[Delorean Industries]

Thanks for all the feed back guys. All of you are on the money. I talked to Mike at DMCMW (great guy btw) and he said the same, all the sleeves should come out to make sure there is no leaks when it goes back together. The sleeves are free to move and just a paper seal holding it together, once the heads are compressed on they create the seal and hold tight. He did say that I really dont have to worry about the measuring part for the pistons, he said if I get the biggest shim available (on back order ofcourse) it'll be fine. The good news is that i already have the engine out on a stand and torn down to the block. I was resealing every gasket and seal in the engine. I was degreasing the sides of the block (to match the now very clean covers and pan) when I had this bright idea. Mike did say he is seeing more and more of this issue and its a good idea to do "while im there" even if they stayed soild. It just really sucks cause I was so close to just getting my heads back and putting everything back together and DRIVING it for the first time in my ownership. More hard work ahead. Thanks for all the help.. Spot on as usual.:thumbup2: .. Any pics of the piston locks or tool to hold down the sleeves.

Liner locking set and the correct liner seals in stock at Delorean Performance Industries. We also have complete tear down kits available on sale this week as well. Depending on how far you hare taking the project we also have the correct spec main and rod bearings in standard and two oversizes. Email us at [email protected] or call at 330 573 4129

[DCUK Martin]

Just to pick up anearlier point, you only need to remove the pistons, not the crank. I recommend valve grinding paste to clean up the liner seats but be very careful to clean up afterwards!

[krs09]

I am getting ready to reseat the paper gaskets. My question is, is there any wrong way to install them? Is there any special place to put the little tabs on the paper gasket? Iam just afraid to put them in upside down or something. I know it sounds stupid but HELP!! .. Thanks guys

[DMCMW Dave]

No particular orientation. Just make sure it's perfectly clean and seated

[krs09]

No particular orientation. Just make sure it's perfectly clean and seated

Well Dave, your the best.. AGAIN ! .. Thank you so much. Were getting close to slapping this thing back together.. Can I use Hi tack to keep the paper gasket in place? or really not needed? .. O and what do you think about the timing cover gasket? Should I just use the gasket or some RTV? or any other sealer? Thanks again:D

[Delorean Industries]

Well Dave, your the best.. AGAIN ! .. Thank you so much. Were getting close to slapping this thing back together.. Can I use Hi tack to keep the paper gasket in place? or really not needed? .. O and what do you think about the timing cover gasket? Should I just use the gasket or some RTV? or any other sealer? Thanks again:D

Just left you a voicemail regarding the proper way to install the liner seals. Sorry I missed your call the first time. If you have any other questions call at 330 573 4129

[DMCMW Dave]

Well Dave, your the best.. AGAIN ! .. Thank you so much. Were getting close to slapping this thing back together.. Can I use Hi tack to keep the paper gasket in place? or really not needed? .. O and what do you think about the timing cover gasket? Should I just use the gasket or some RTV? or any other sealer? Thanks again:D

My preference is Right Stuff RTV (very thinly) on the timing cover and valve cover gaskets. The liner seals go on dry. The liners and the block need to be perfectly clean.

[krs09]

Just left you a voicemail regarding the proper way to install the liner seals. Sorry I missed your call the first time. If you have any other questions call at 330 573 4129

Thanks Josh. We were thinking of laying the gasket on the block and easing the sleeve down into place (we did one and looked to seat nicely) but instead walked the gasket down the sleeve until it layed in place in the slight groove at the base of the sleeve. Then just put the whole sleeve n piston into the block that way. It took a little practice to get over my fear of breaking the gasket but it proved to be a hell of a lot easier. Thanks.

[jpjones125]

Way late to this party, but is there a part number for these paper seals?

Just had a liner on the replacement block I bought do this exact same thing.

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[DMCMW Dave]

Way late to this party, but is there a part number for these paper seals?

Just had a liner on the replacement block I bought do this exact same thing.

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https://store.delorean.com/parts/engine/1-1-2-crankshaft-piston-assembly.html Part ID 4.

[jpjones125]

Thanks, this is a great help!

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