Restoring R12 Air Conditioning System

[kings1527]

Hi everyone,

So I'm getting ready to resurrect my R12 system. I'm not going to convert since I have a ton of R12 (long story) so I'm going to keep it that way. Here's what I know (or don't know) about my system as it stands right now:

1) The system is empty.
2) I have no idea how long the system has been vacated for.
3) I have no idea what exactly caused the system to go empty, although I believe my car sat for about 4 years or so before I bought it.
4) The compressor will kick on if I run a jumper wire from the squiggly power wire on the compressor to the positive post in the engine compartment. Yay.
5) Everything with my mode switch seems to work fine, except for AC of course.

So given all that, here's my game plan in exactly the order I plan to do it:
1a) Remove the compressor and empty the compressor oil, and then refill with mineral oil that's the amount removed plus 1 additional oz (as per the Sanden manual...they say there's about 1oz of residual oil lining the compressor once you empty it)
1) I'll give the system a real good flush. Not flushing the compressor, of course.
2) After flushing, I'm going to replace the accumulator, orifice tube, and all o-rings.
3) Double check all my connections again
4) Pull a vacuum on the system and make sure it holds. Down to 26 or so? Not exactly sure on the number.
5) Charge the system with R12
6) Double check the system connections and components with my R12 sniffer that I have

What do you guys think? Anything else that I can do? If there's a faulty component, I'd expect it to show up in the vacuum test.

Thanks in advance!

[sdg3205]

Sounds like you've got it all under control! I did this last year.

Make sure you get the adapter pipe with the new dryer if need be. I know thy changed them along the way.

[Bitsyncmaster]

You don't flush with the old accumulator installed. You would also want to have the orifice tube removed. I flushed mine by removing the accumulator and hoses at the compressor. Then flushed each section with solvent a few times.

Make sure you get a new accumulator without the oil in it already (it may be PAG oil). You will need to add oil to the accumulator (I think it was 4 or 6 oz.).

[Ron]

Since he's doing a full flush, I'd suggest forgetting about adding oil to the accumulator, drain all of the oil out of the compressor, then add the spec amount for the system.

[kings1527]

You don't flush with the old accumulator installed. You would also want to have the orifice tube removed. I flushed mine by removing the accumulator and hoses at the compressor. Then flushed each section with solvent a few times.

Make sure you get a new accumulator without the oil in it already (it may be PAG oil). You will need to add oil to the accumulator (I think it was 4 or 6 oz.).

I see. So take out the accumulator and orifice tube and flush from the compressor to where it's disconnected at the accumulator/orifice tube. And then flush from the accumulator/orifice tube back to the (I think low side) that's disconnected at the compressor?

If I'm going to disconnect the accumulator/orifice tube and can't use the compressor to push the flush through, what type of fitting do I use for all this and propel the solvent through the hoses? Do I just dump AC solvent into the hoses and shoot it through with compressed air?

Thanks again, guys!

[kings1527]

Sounds like you've got it all under control! I did this last year.

Make sure you get the adapter pipe with the new dryer if need be. I know thy changed them along the way.

Thanks, Dave.

[Bitsyncmaster]

I see. So take out the accumulator and orifice tube and flush from the compressor to where it's disconnected at the accumulator/orifice tube. And then flush from the accumulator/orifice tube back to the (I think low side) that's disconnected at the compressor?

If I'm going to disconnect the accumulator/orifice tube and can't use the compressor to push the flush through, what type of fitting do I use for all this and propel the solvent through the hoses? Do I just dump AC solvent into the hoses and shoot it through with compressed air?

Thanks again, guys!

It's best to use a pump to get the best flush but if not possible, then just fill and dump. Then blow dry with compressed air before you assemble. I had my old hoses to rig up to flush but you can rig up most anything since it's low pressure durring the flush.

[kings1527]

It's best to use a pump to get the best flush but if not possible, then just fill and dump. Then blow dry with compressed air before you assemble. I had my old hoses to rig up to flush but you can rig up most anything since it's low pressure durring the flush.

Gotcha. Thanks again, Dave. Do shops like Autozone or O'Reilly's have pumps that I can borrow/rent or am I going to have to buy one? It looks like Harbor Freight has one for $90 that can pull a vacuum, too.

http://www.harborfreight.com/25-cfm-vacuum-pump-98076.html

Or on another thought, can I just get R12 fittings for my air compressor and hook up my compressor hose to my AC hose and essentially turn on my air compressor and have it fill the AC system and flush it that way? It seems like this is something I can get pretty creative without having to really worry about hurting anything.

Thanks again.

[dmc6960]

Sounds like a great plan, but I would like to add a few more checks...

Since you dont know why the system stopped working in the first place, check the condition all all hoses and connections along the whole path. A slow/medium leak would deposit oil near the leak and accumulate much more dirt than the surrounding areas. Depending how well you've washed the car since you've owned it perhaps there is still evidence around. Also be VERY sure to check the high pressure hose around the steering shaft. It can rub here and burst.

Finally, I'd suggest pressurizing the system with dry nitrogen, before pulling the vacuum. (Note, this is NOT compressed air). This way you're checking its condition under a more realistic pressure (I'd say go up to about 150psi) rather than a mere 14psi with potential to suck in more contaminants.

[kings1527]

Sounds like a great plan, but I would like to add a few more checks...

Since you dont know why the system stopped working in the first place, check the condition all all hoses and connections along the whole path. A slow/medium leak would deposit oil near the leak and accumulate much more dirt than the surrounding areas. Depending how well you've washed the car since you've owned it perhaps there is still evidence around. Also be VERY sure to check the high pressure hose around the steering shaft. It can rub here and burst.

Finally, I'd suggest pressurizing the system with dry nitrogen, before pulling the vacuum. (Note, this is NOT compressed air). This way you're checking its condition under a more realistic pressure (I'd say go up to about 150psi) rather than a mere 14psi with potential to suck in more contaminants.

Excellent. Thanks for the tips, Jim. Is there an easy way to do this? Is there a nitrogen "kit" that's sold or do I need to go to a shop and have them pressurize it there?

[Bitsyncmaster]

Gotcha. Thanks again, Dave. Do shops like Autozone or O'Reilly's have pumps that I can borrow/rent or am I going to have to buy one? It looks like Harbor Freight has one for $90 that can pull a vacuum, too.

http://www.harborfreight.com/25-cfm-vacuum-pump-98076.html

Or on another thought, can I just get R12 fittings for my air compressor and hook up my compressor hose to my AC hose and essentially turn on my air compressor and have it fill the AC system and flush it that way? It seems like this is something I can get pretty creative without having to really worry about hurting anything.

Thanks again.

Your compressor needs oil when it's running. Using it to flush solvent would probably ruin it. I used one of those garden hose pumps you add on your drill but it only lasted about 10 minutes of run time.

[David T]

Figure on replacing the 3 hoses. Flush the coils and compressor. Pressure test with Nitrogen to 200 psi and check with bubbles. Fill the compressor with fresh oil. The Sunden site has instructions on how to make and use a dipstick to check the level. Replace the accumulator and if the insides are clean you may not need a new orifice tube. Evacuate the system and fill with R-12.
David Teitelbaum

[kings1527]

Your compressor needs oil when it's running. Using it to flush solvent would probably ruin it. I used one of those garden hose pumps you add on your drill but it only lasted about 10 minutes of run time.

Actually, I wasn't very clear. I was talking about using my shop air compressor, not the car's AC compressor. Basically make a fitting to attach my shop compressor to the AC hose and flush it that way.

[kings1527]

Figure on replacing the 3 hoses.
David Teitelbaum

Ugh. I was hoping I wouldn't have to do that. Is there a reason why you're thinking it would be good to replace the hoses? Possible damage? Contamination?

Thanks!

[Bitsyncmaster]

Ugh. I was hoping I wouldn't have to do that. Is there a reason why you're thinking it would be good to replace the hoses? Possible damage? Contamination?

Thanks!

I converted to R134 and the short hose from the condensor to accumulator was leaker for me. If your sticking with R12 it may not be a problem for you.

[kings1527]

I converted to R134 and the short hose from the condensor to accumulator was leaker for me. If your sticking with R12 it may not be a problem for you.

OK, perfect. Thanks. If I were going to convert to R134, then I'd definitely look to swap the hoses out since I know the molecule is smaller than R12. But if the hoses are in good shape, I think I'll give it a shot and see how they perform.

[David T]

Unless you know the hoses were changed they are probably either very old or the originals. In either case they are WAY past being dead and now are leakers (probably why the system is flat in the first place). If they aren't leaking they will soon or maybe just blow out once you start getting pressure on them. As for flushing, go to an A/C supply and buy a couple of cans of flush. They are pressurized, you do not need a pump. Just some way of connecting them to the part you want to flush. You want good hoses, you do not want to go through all of the work to get the system going only to have them burst and lose all of that good R-12 (or whatever you use).
David Teitelbaum

[kings1527]

Unless you know the hoses were changed they are probably either very old or the originals. In either case they are WAY past being dead and now are leakers (probably why the system is flat in the first place). If they aren't leaking they will soon or maybe just blow out once you start getting pressure on them. As for flushing, go to an A/C supply and buy a couple of cans of flush. They are pressurized, you do not need a pump. Just some way of connecting them to the part you want to flush. You want good hoses, you do not want to go through all of the work to get the system going only to have them burst and lose all of that good R-12 (or whatever you use).
David Teitelbaum

Ok, thanks for the info Dave. Always good stuff. You're right, I have no idea the status of my hoses.

On another thought, I had an epiphany today while driving and looking over towards the passenger's side of my windshield. I remember there being a decent amount of oil on the inside of the passenger's side windshield and the pattern looked like it at least partially (or completely from what I could tell) came from the far right defroster vent. It didn't come from any of the other defroster vents; just the far right. So while trying to play detective and figure out why the system failed in the first place, could that have meant that the evaporator failed? What else would cause oil to discharge from there?

One more question. How hot should the compressor get simply from having the belt connected to it and turning while the engine's running? Should it be cool? Warm? Hot to the touch?

Thanks for all of the answers, everyone. I'd love to get this taken care of before the heat starts!

[Bitsyncmaster]

Your compressor will feel hot just from engine heat if you have been driving for some time. Don't run the compressor (bypassed switch) if you don't have a freon charge. The compressor cylinders get oiled with the freon carrying the oil.

[David T]

The stuff on the windscreen is probably because the heater core is leaking and that is anti-freeze. Pressure test the cooling system. It could also be someone tried to disinfect it by spraying some kind of stuff in.The compressor should only be as hot as the motor, the only thing turning is the pulley on the front of the compressor, not the internals unless the clutch is energized. As bitsyncmaster says you do NOT want that compressor to run without freon. In fact, disconnect the wire to the clutch so it can't till you fix the whole system. The better way to test the system electrically and to prove it is low on freon is to remove the plug on the low pressure switch and stick a paperclip into it while the motor is running. If the cooling fans come on and the clutch on the compressor engages, the system is OK, just low on freon. Do not run it for more than a moment.
David Teitelbaum

[kings1527]

Your compressor will feel hot just from engine heat if you have been driving for some time. Don't run the compressor (bypassed switch) if you don't have a freon charge. The compressor cylinders get oiled with the freon carrying the oil.

Thanks Dave. That's got to be it. I was stuck in bumper to bumper traffic for over an hour, so that must've been it. Never came close to overheating but definitely a hot engine.


The stuff on the windscreen is probably because the heater core is leaking and that is anti-freeze. Pressure test the cooling system. It could also be someone tried to disinfect it by spraying some kind of stuff in.The compressor should only be as hot as the motor, the only thing turning is the pulley on the front of the compressor, not the internals unless the clutch is energized. As bitsyncmaster says you do NOT want that compressor to run without freon. In fact, disconnect the wire to the clutch so it can't till you fix the whole system. The better way to test the system electrically and to prove it is low on freon is to remove the plug on the low pressure switch and stick a paperclip into it while the motor is running. If the cooling fans come on and the clutch on the compressor engages, the system is OK, just low on freon. Do not run it for more than a moment.
David Teitelbaum

Great info, thanks Dave. I remember reading not to jump the power on the compressor itself for a long time since that could burn up the compressor, so I only did it for 1-2 seconds just to test it. But I like your testing of the low pressure switch/radiator fans much better. Had no idea of that one.

So, I know my heater core is working fine. I have heat and when I rebuilt the cooling system last summer, I pressure tested the system at the end and everything was fine. Yesterday, I turned on the window defroster to see if I could replicate the discharge but it didn't do anything.

When I bought the car, the stuff was already on the windshield and the AC belt was disconnected from the compressor and crankshaft pulley without any type of explanation from the PO. I'm wondering if the evaporator died and discharged oil and all the R12, which is why I'm at where I'm at right now.

And if I change out the evaporator, that means I'll have to drain all the coolant and remove the heater core, too, since everything comes out as a unit?

Thanks for indulging in my session of 20 questions.

[bikergurl2000]

How much do hoses cost? Wouldn't it be cheaper to do a r134a conversion without replacing components and just top it off every year?

[David T]

It is possible but unlikely the evap coil is bad. It is usually the hoses and "O" ring connections that leak. Converting to -134 and topping off for leakage is not a good plan. R-134 runs at much higher pressures so you will blow those old hoses right off. Besides the fact you lose at least 10% cooling capacity using -134 instead of -12. R & R ing the evap coil is one of the biggest jobs there is on the car because of all the work you have to do tearing apart the dash and console. I would pressure test the whole system or just the evap coil before even thinking of trying to replace that coil. One of the biggest reasons to wind up replacing the evap coil is because in trying to remove the old orifice tube you damage the soft aluminum pipe. As for pricing the hoses, go over to SpecialT and look up the 2 piece sets. MUCH easier to install than the OEM one piece with the body on the car!
David Teitelbaum

[Bitsyncmaster]

How much do hoses cost? Wouldn't it be cheaper to do a r134a conversion without replacing components and just top it off every year?

R134A price is going up every year. So you don't want to keep filling without fixing any leaks. With my leaking hose it would need a can every two months.

[kings1527]

How much do hoses cost? Wouldn't it be cheaper to do a r134a conversion without replacing components and just top it off every year?

It depends what vendor you go with. Hervey has the best price and DMC has OEM R12 hoses. Hervey's would be better for an R134 system. I have a ton of R12 that I surreptitiously acquired and it'd be easier for me to locate exactly what the problem was that caused my system to go bad and fix it while keeping it R12. If I go to R134, I'd definitely want to replace more components because that system runs at higher pressure, like Dave T said. For me, this is the most economical way to do it. The only real reason why someone would want to convert to R134 is due to the availability of R12, which I already have taken care of.


It is possible but unlikely the evap coil is bad. It is usually the hoses and "O" ring connections that leak. Converting to -134 and topping off for leakage is not a good plan. R-134 runs at much higher pressures so you will blow those old hoses right off. Besides the fact you lose at least 10% cooling capacity using -134 instead of -12. R & R ing the evap coil is one of the biggest jobs there is on the car because of all the work you have to do tearing apart the dash and console. I would pressure test the whole system or just the evap coil before even thinking of trying to replace that coil. One of the biggest reasons to wind up replacing the evap coil is because in trying to remove the old orifice tube you damage the soft aluminum pipe. As for pricing the hoses, go over to SpecialT and look up the 2 piece sets. MUCH easier to install than the OEM one piece with the body on the car!
David Teitelbaum

Ok, good ideas. Again, I'm keeping my system R12 so the pressures (other than pressure from R12) wouldn't really apply for me. I don't want to replace the evaporator if I don't have to. Thanks again for all the advice.

[kings1527]

So I have the wheels in motion with this. I tried pulling a vacuum using good equipment and the compound gauge wouldn't go past about 22mmHg. As soon as I shut it down, it took about 7-10 seconds for the pressure to equalize again. So, I know I have a major leak. I tried injecting dye into the system but I think the total lack of ability to build up pressure couldn't send dye through the system. Therefore, I didn't see any dye.

I put about 1/2 lb of R12 in the system and with a sniffer I was getting very heavy readings on both connections on the accumulator but also getting some readings at the vents inside the car.

One thing I also had was a pretty heavy oil slick on the inside of the passenger's side defrost vent when I got the car.

So, for whatever reason (probably because I know it's worst case scenario and I'm dreading it) I have in my brain that it's a good possibility the evaporator is leaking. But I don't know how fast an evaporator would leak and if the connections at the accumulator were giving me high readings, I'd have to go with bad o-rings. I know seals are the most common cause of a system failing.

So my questions are: for a major leak like this, what's the likely scenario? Bad o-ring(s) somewhere? If an evaporator were to suffer gross failure, has anyone heard of a system leaking as fast as mine because of the evaporator failure? 7-10 sec is awfully quick.

My next step is to disconnect the accumulator (since I'd have to replace it anyways), check/replace o-rings and go from there.

Thanks!

[DMCMW Dave]

If an evaporator were to suffer gross failure, has anyone heard of a system leaking as fast as mine because of the evaporator failure? 7-10 sec is awfully quick.

My next step is to disconnect the accumulator (since I'd have to replace it anyways), check/replace o-rings and go from there.

Thanks!

I have one in here where you can hear the evap leak inside the car when you pressurize the system (with nitrogen - way cheaper than R12). I'm guessing, especially due to the oil slick, that you have an evap leak and a bunch of others, but if there is one large leak it's hard to find the small ones until the large one is fixed.

[kings1527]

Also, too, if I take my sniffer and press it hard against the foam on the underside of the evaporator, I get a pretty noticeable/high reading.

[kings1527]

I have one in here where you can hear the evap leak inside the car when you pressurize the system (with nitrogen - way cheaper than R12). I'm guessing, especially due to the oil slick, that you have an evap leak and a bunch of others, but if there is one large leak it's hard to find the small ones until the large one is fixed.


Thanks Dave. That's where I'm leaning, too. So I guess the evap at times can severely fail. And like I said on my last post, if I press my sniffer up against the foam on the underside of the evap, I get a positive reading.

[David T]

If you have a big leak by the accumulator the freon could be getting into the car and makes you think the coil is leaking. I don't like sniffers, especially on cars where there is a lot of air movement. I prefer bubbles, that way you can actually see the leak and it isn't as messy as dye. On really big leaks you just can't pinpoint it with a sniffer. You must fix the large leaks first so you can find the small ones. I would not replace the accumulator yet, just the "O" rings. The accumulator is the last thing you replace just before you vacuum and fill the system. That way you keep any moisture contamination to a minimum. The Evap coil cold be bad, I am just trying to be optimistic. You do NOT want to have to replace that coil unless you HAVE to. It is a LOT of work. You should always test for leaks using pressure. Using vacuum just sucks in contamination.
David Teitelbaum

[kings1527]

If you have a big leak by the accumulator the freon could be getting into the car and makes you think the coil is leaking. I don't like sniffers, especially on cars where there is a lot of air movement. I prefer bubbles, that way you can actually see the leak and it isn't as messy as dye. On really big leaks you just can't pinpoint it with a sniffer. You must fix the large leaks first so you can find the small ones. I would not replace the accumulator yet, just the "O" rings. The accumulator is the last thing you replace just before you vacuum and fill the system. That way you keep any moisture contamination to a minimum. The Evap coil cold be bad, I am just trying to be optimistic. You do NOT want to have to replace that coil unless you HAVE to. It is a LOT of work. You should always test for leaks using pressure. Using vacuum just sucks in contamination.
David Teitelbaum

Thanks, Dave. I totally hear what you're saying. I think my hangup with testing with pressure instead of vacuum is simply not having the tools to do it with. I know not to used compressed air and dry nitrogen is the best, but I guess I just don't know where to get it or what fittings I need to hook it up to the car.

I checked the oil level on the compressor to make sure it was ok and the. I jumpered the compressor to get it to run for a bit. I could only get my low side up to about 20 psi or so and my high side maybe 50 at the most if I remember right. And then like I said, everything would dissipate over 7-10 sec.

After I jumpered the compressor, what I did see was some dye at my high side fitting. So I have to assume that the dye made it through the hoses. I checked the hoses the best I could with a UV light, as well as around the accumulator fittings and the condenser and I didn't see anything. As well as the compressor, too. I really focused on the area around the accumulator fittings where I got the positive reading with the sniffer and I didn't see any dye there for sure.

Thanks for being optimistic for me, Dave T! It just seems the more diagnostics I do (to the best of my amateur ability) I feel like I'm building a case in favor of a bad evap.

But I'll swap out the old o-rings at the accumulator (leaving the old accumulator in place), as well as the whole car, connect everything again and see what I have. The last thing ill do is go in and get the evap out. I can already tell I'm going to have to grab a stubby set or customize a wrench for getting at the accumulator connections.

[jawn101]

I can already tell I'm going to have to grab a stubby set or customize a wrench for getting at the accumulator connections.

Crows foot wrenches were very helpful to me in this area :)

[kings1527]

Crows foot wrenches were very helpful to me in this area :)

Thanks for reminding me, Jon! I remember seeing another post of yours where you mention crows foot wrenches helped with this job. Looks like I'm going to pick up a set. Thanks again for all the help. If anyone has any ideas, please send them my way! :)

[David T]

Remove the access cover over the fuel pump and you can get at the accumulator with wrenches. If you are tearing the whole thing apart and replacing the accumulator you can use shop air but it only gets you to 100 psi or so. Be VERY careful with the accumulator, the pipes to the Evap coil are soft aluminum and if you don't "hold back" with wrenches you will damage them necessitating replacement. You should NOT run the compressor for more than 20-30 seconds without Freon. Just long enough to prove out the electrical system. If the system has been flat you should remove all of the oil from the compressor and replace with fresh.
David Teitelbaum

[kings1527]

So I'm replacing the evaporator. That's my problem with this.

As somewhat expected, I'm having a problem disconnecting the evaporator from the accumulator. My question is this:

Since my evaporator is getting tossed and my accumulator is going to get tossed, too, can I simply cut the evaporator pipe (while avoiding the heater hoses)? It seems like I can get a very small hacksaw in there. I won't have to worry about any debris since both pieces are getting thrown out.

I tried Jon's suggestion of a crows foot but I don't have the right size. It's a pretty big nut.

Thanks.

[jawn101]

Sorry to hear it man. I don't have any experience sawing through evaporators, but your plan sounds reasonable enough to me. If it wasn't already clear your system isn't holding pressure, I'd say make sure there's no pressure :)

[DMCMW Dave]

Sure - just be sure to take the hose off the accumulator first. You want to "save" that one or you'll be doing hoses too. Which you might want to do anyway.

[kings1527]

Sorry to hear it man. I don't have any experience sawing through evaporators, but your plan sounds reasonable enough to me. If it wasn't already clear your system isn't holding pressure, I'd say make sure there's no pressure :)

Thanks, Jon. Yeah, it wasn't really what I was hoping for but oh well! After redoing my interior and installing my stereo system, I'm pretty well versed with removing all of the interior that needs to come out so that part's encouraging. I did some work today on the system and I was surprised when all of the other connections at the accumulator came off very easy, including pulling the orifice tube. The OT came out without any issue at all. But of course the evaporator/accumulator connection was intent on working me over. :bawling: I'll have to find the right size crow foot and give it another shot with that. Otherwise, I'll just go ahead and cut the evaporator tube. And yes, my system is completely void right now so pressure won't be a problem. Thanks again for that. Sunday is going to be a long but productive day!


Sure - just be sure to take the hose off the accumulator first. You want to "save" that one or you'll be doing hoses too. Which you might want to do anyway.

Thanks, Dave. Luckily, that connection came apart real easily but I'll be sure to have it off if I have to perform surgery. Putting new hoses in is definitely on my mind.... :hmm:

[kings1527]

So I got everything out. I decided to follow the manual and take out the entire heating/AC assembly which was actually written pretty well but I did have to translate some English english. Special thanks to Dave McKeen for mentioning to remove the carpets, too, since spill some coolant as I take the heater core out. Yup, sure did. And I can't imagine doing this job while keeping the passenger seat in the car when it's so easy to take it out.

I ended up cutting the evap pipe to get it out and it worked fine.

The whole thing wasn't too painful, actually. One thing to note is that I had to remove my passenger side Infinity speaker in the dash to get the "demist" vent out because the hub on the speaker was too long.

Once I got everything out of the car, I split the cases so I could get at the evaporator. As I took it out, I didn't see anything incredibly out of the ordinary. I was expecting to see some signs of failure, but I didn't see anything.

If an evap fails, is it common to readily see SOMETHING? The putty-stuff on the hoses was somewhat wet and very malleable. I'm wondering if one of the pipes failed underneath? I'm thinking that'd be odd. I didn't have a fitting to pressure test it, so I simply blew into one and plugged the other side with my finger to see if there was anything obvious; no such luck.

Overall, it took me about 5 hours from start to finish, including about 30-45 min of 'himming' and hawing' on a few parts.

I'll put some new foam on the doors, new o-rings, etc, and then work on getting everything back in.

Thanks!

[kings1527]

It looks like I'll be installing new hoses. On the hose going from the accumulator to the compressor, I found a nick on the hose that might very well be contributing to my problem. I still think there was something going on with my evaporator, which I'm about 80% done with. I installed the new one and now just have to make some connections on everything and get the rest of the interior back in. If anything, my AC system is going to be perfect for years to come with everything that's going in. Since my car is going to be stored indoors, I also cleaned out the intake at the dash/blower area of any junk so any kind of obstruction at the evap drain tube should never be an issue.

I have a couple questions:

1) Hoses to go with. I know people generally seem to be happy with Hervey's split hoses but I know some VINs had issues with getting them installed due to the size of the hoses being a bit larger. Does anyone know if it's been early/late cars that have the problem? If I have to go through the hassle of undoing body bolts and jacking up the body on one side, I might as well go with DMCH's hoses but I'd also like to know if there's anything I can look at on my car ahead of time that would let me know if I'll run into problems with Hervey's. I'm leaning towards Hervey's and taking a chance that I'll be fine but I'm wondering what the % has been of cars that had issues with his hoses during installation.

2) I'm keeping my car R12 but I wouldn't mind putting 134a hoses on my car if it doesn't cause any kind of compatibility problems. Just in case down the road my R12 plans change. As far as I know, the only difference with 134a hoses is an extra barrier liner and that shouldn't be a problem with R12. Can anyone confirm that?

Thanks again!

[Bitsyncmaster]

It's not a VIN issue but the alingment of the body on the frame that may cause fit problems on the suction hose. My car was one of those that it did not fix. Someday I will lift the body a little to get it in but for now I just clamped it to the frame.

[kings1527]

It's not a VIN issue but the alingment of the body on the frame that may cause fit problems on the suction hose. My car was one of those that it did not fix. Someday I will lift the body a little to get it in but for now I just clamped it to the frame.

I see. So if it came down to removing the body bolts, are there any near the rear of the car to contend with? I know about the ones in the interior and the front luggage compartment but I'm not sure about ones toward the engine compartment.

[jawn101]

I see. So if it came down to removing the body bolts, are there any near the rear of the car to contend with? I know about the ones in the interior and the front luggage compartment but I'm not sure about ones toward the engine compartment.

Yeah, there's the 2 inside the pontoons. One easily accessible via the charcoal canister cover, the other is slightly more difficult and may require the removal of your rear fascia to get at, depending on how long and skinny your arms are :)

[kings1527]

Yeah, there's the 2 inside the pontoons. One easily accessible via the charcoal canister cover, the other is slightly more difficult and may require the removal of your rear fascia to get at, depending on how long and skinny your arms are :)

Well, the long and skinny arms aren't a problem! I'm wondering if I'd have to remove all of them or I can get way with just removing a few and using a jack point on the body to lift it, since we're only talking about a nat's behind in terms of how much room is needed to successfully snake the suction hose through.

I'd hate to remove the rear fascia again out of fear of cracking the paint since it was a real snug install when I got it back from being repainted.

[Henrik]

As far as I know, the only difference with 134a hoses is an extra barrier liner and that shouldn't be a problem with R12. Can anyone confirm that?

Correct. There is no compatibility issue with using R134a style hoses for R-12. If anything, as you pointed out, the extra barrier for max. refrig containment and min. moisture ingression is a good thing.

[kings1527]

So I installed my new split AC hoses from Hervey today. Everyone is right...it's an incredibly tight fit but I remember another thread saying that his low-side suction line is larger than the stock line. From what I saw today, they're not; they're both 5/8".

The easiest way I found to get them in was to put the front of the car on jack stands and go to the front jack point for the body (not the frame) and jack it up a tiny bit. And I mean easily no greater than 1/8". The thing is, I did this without taking out the body bolts. Since it's such a small amount, it didn't hurt anything. In fact, it barely made any sound at all when I did it.

It still took a bit of effort to snake it through since I didn't want to go too high without removing the body bolts so I lubed the hose with some silicone spray and that helped. If you do it that way, it's incredibly easy, all things considered.

Oh, and is this a DMC-approved method of repairing the high-side line, about 24" from the compressor...just far enough to where I couldn't see it???

1883118832

I'm guessing 'no'. Just might be one of my problems with my AC....(hunch)

On another note:

By far, the biggest waste of time today was trying to get my new orifice tube installed. It feels like it's the plastic hub itself that's not passing through that tapered part just inside the evaporator. I tried taking 3/8" copper tubing and running a slit down the side for the orifice tube tab so I could try tapping it in place, but the OT itself tapers outward and I couldn't get the copper tube to sit flush on the plastic hub of the OT. So it was basically useless. Tapping the OT or using needlenose or anything else was futile. Does anyone know where I can pick up a tool for this or make something else?

I'm close...so close....

Thanks!

[jawn101]

Wow, that repair is awesome. Did you know it was there before you pulled out the old hoses? Guess you're glad you did now, lol

[DMCflux]

I just finished my install of the a/c kit from DMCMW. Evaporator accumulator and related pressure switches. I also replaced the hose from the condenser to compressor. When it came time to feed the house thru the section of body and frame, I left the connection/fitting of the right angle end out of the frame (as per Daves advice). With another set of hands, a pry bar, long screwdriver, rubber hammer and brass drift, I was able to assist the hose thru the frame via the bend in the right angle. It was really tight where the retaining nuts are for the fuel tank support plate but using a long screwdriver to gentle pry did the trick. I didn't have to loosen any body bolts, just needed patience and another set of hands. Now I have ice cold a/c!!!

[Farrar]

My car had the same "repair." Amazing.

[kings1527]

Wow, that repair is awesome. Did you know it was there before you pulled out the old hoses? Guess you're glad you did now, lol

No, I had no idea! And I'm surprised I didn't see it during my engine adventure over last summer.


I just finished my install of the a/c kit from DMCMW. Evaporator accumulator and related pressure switches. I also replaced the hose from the condenser to compressor. When it came time to feed the house thru the section of body and frame, I left the connection/fitting of the right angle end out of the frame (as per Daves advice). With another set of hands, a pry bar, long screwdriver, rubber hammer and brass drift, I was able to assist the hose thru the frame via the bend in the right angle. It was really tight where the retaining nuts are for the fuel tank support plate but using a long screwdriver to gentle pry did the trick. I didn't have to loosen any body bolts, just needed patience and another set of hands. Now I have ice cold a/c!!!

Nice! So how did you get the orifice tube in? This is my only hangup right now. I could wrap this up tomorrow if I can get the tube in.


My car had the same "repair." Amazing.

It makes you want to tackle the PO, doesn't it?? :-)

[Farrar]

So how did you get the orifice tube in? This is my only hangup right now. I could wrap this up tomorrow if I can get the tube in.

This is where I am now. After breaking two, I got a third to fit -- but according to almost everyone else it's in backwards. Now I'm afraid to charge and turn on the system. :hmm:

[DMCflux]

[QUOTE=kings1527;102028]Nice! So how did you get the orifice tube in? This is my only hangup right now. I could wrap this up tomorrow if I can get the tube in.


I used refrigeration oil on the o ring and put it in before installing the evap in the blower box, knowing that the lines would be bent slightly when installed.

[kings1527]

This is where I am now. After breaking two, I got a third to fit -- but according to almost everyone else it's in backwards. Now I'm afraid to charge and turn on the system. :hmm:

Gotcha. There's a tiny arrow on the plastic hub near the o-ring that points the direction of flow. The smaller screen should be headed inside the evaporator and the larger screen is near the evap/high pressure line connection. I think the only difference would be the screen; you want the larger screen to catch debris before in enters the evaporator (ideally) but as far as the actual tube function, I think it'd work either way. It'd still have the smaller screen to catch stuff if that's the way you have it installed.


[QUOTE=kings1527;102028]Nice! So how did you get the orifice tube in? This is my only hangup right now. I could wrap this up tomorrow if I can get the tube in.


I used refrigeration oil on the o ring and put it in before installing the evap in the blower box, knowing that the lines would be bent slightly when installed.

I see. I guess I should've done that before I put the box in. I know it doesn't have to do with a bend in the pipe but rather the actual plastic hub getting hung up just inside the evaporator.

[DMCflux]

I see. I guess I should've done that before I put the box in. I know it doesn't have to do with a bend in the pipe but rather the actual plastic hub getting hung up just inside the evaporator.

It shouldn't get hung up. There's a notch in the pipe so it can only go in so far. I'd try oiling the o ring as it is the main friction point.

[kings1527]

It shouldn't get hung up. There's a notch in the pipe so it can only go in so far. I'd try oiling the o ring as it is the main friction point.

It has to be the plastic that's getting hung up. I I tried removing the o-ring to see if I could get it in without it and it's the plastic. It still wouldn't go in. If I flip it around, it'll slide in until it hits the plastic hub again. I have to find a tool that'll hit the hub at the base to get it to pass through.

[DMCMW Dave]

Don't go nuts forcing it in-someday you ( or someone else) will need to get it out again.

[David T]

I have seen those kinds of repairs before. I especially like the piece of wire between the two hose clamps, I suppose that is to keep the whole mess from shooting apart! An early version of someone's idea of a "split hose" design! Yes, it is a massive leak, especially on the high side where the highest pressures are. That's why they are called DPO's (Dreaded Previous Owners). Or you can make up your own translation for the "D". The real problem when you find a repair like that on a car is that you have to start wondering what other surprises are waiting to be found?
David Teitelbaum

[jawn101]

Hey Alex - what exactly was clamped inside those hoses? Just curious :)

Good luck on the oriface tube. I've read a lot of stories like yours where it just wouldn't go in (or come out later) but didn't personally have any trouble with it.

[kings1527]

Don't go nuts forcing it in-someday you ( or someone else) will need to get it out again.

Thanks Dave. I was thinking about that. I know you guys have that orifice tube installer tool, which I'll have to improvise my own. It's my understanding that the entire OT should be inserted into the evaporator line, correct? It seems like I'll have to do what I can to get it in all the way but I don't want to go further than I have to.


I have seen those kinds of repairs before. I especially like the piece of wire between the two hose clamps, I suppose that is to keep the whole mess from shooting apart! An early version of someone's idea of a "split hose" design! Yes, it is a massive leak, especially on the high side where the highest pressures are. That's why they are called DPO's (Dreaded Previous Owners). Or you can make up your own translation for the "D". The real problem when you find a repair like that on a car is that you have to start wondering what other surprises are waiting to be found?
David Teitelbaum

Seriously, David! Luckily, my car hasn't been a basket case. This was the only real surprise I've found so far and I've done a lot of work. So hopefully this is it!


Hey Alex - what exactly was clamped inside those hoses? Just curious :)

Good luck on the oriface tube. I've read a lot of stories like yours where it just wouldn't go in (or come out later) but didn't personally have any trouble with it.

I'm not really sure what they used, Jon, since I'm saving it as a souvenir but it looks like there's some kind of metal tube inside that's used to help hold the two hoses together, along with the clamps and the DMC old-stock "coat hanger hose coupler". Ingenious. Maybe Richard Dean Anderson was the PO.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Does the mating pipe push in the orifice? I don't think you need it pressed all the way in as long as the o-ring makes a seal.

[kings1527]

Does the mating pipe push in the orifice? I don't think you need it pressed all the way in as long as the o-ring makes a seal.

Thanks Dave,

As far as I know, the entire assembly is supposed to fit inside the evaporator. I'm going to give the copper tubing trick another shot and if I don't get it figured out, I'll call Danny at DMC CA tomorrow since I bought all of my stuff from them. To get it to work, I might have to trim off the two large tabs on the orifice tube but I need more info before I start hacking away.

Frustrating to be hung up on such a small thing but it looks like others have been in the same boat...

[Ron]

I don't think you need it pressed all the way in as long as the o-ring makes a seal.
+1

Sounds like the tube bent and it's out of round. If you force it in, it may leak around the o-ring anyway (rare). When I get one like that, I use a deep well socket slightly larger than the plastic on an extension with a lock and gently tap it to re-shape it until it gets close to the notch/stop, then double check that the OT will not pass the notch...

[Farrar]

+1

Sounds like the tube bent and it's out of round. If you force it in, it may leak around the o-ring anyway (rare). When I get one like that, I use a deep well socket slightly larger than the plastic on an extension with a lock and gently tap it to re-shape it until it gets close to the notch/stop, then double check that the OT will not pass the notch...

This was my thought: how to shape/widen the pipe slightly to get the orifice tube in.

I wish the shop manual had told me to put the orifice tube in before installing the evaporator. That book leaves much to be desired.

[kings1527]

This was my thought: how to shape/widen the pipe slightly to get the orifice tube in.

I wish the shop manual had told me to put the orifice tube in before installing the evaporator. That book leaves much to be desired.


I hear you, Farrar. The book is definitely written with a bunch of assumptions. The only part that I've found that I thought was written surprisingly well and detailed was how to get the AC/Heater box out of the car. I think that's been the only time I've used the shop manual step-by-step to do something.

I think I've got the answer but I won't get to try it out until later on in the week. I picked up another 3/8" ID copper tube but this time my cuts will be a little different and I'll have to trim down the large tabs on the OT by about 50% or so. I think this new improvised tool will get the job done.

Once I get everything good to go, it'll be easy to hold the evaporator line, the OT, and my tool :umm: with one hand and tap it in place with the other. It probably won't be until Thurs/Fri.

Thanks again to everyone for all the help!

[kings1527]

19044

This was a small but very rewarding victory today. What a total pain the OT turned out to be. I had to make the tool above out of 3/8" copper tubing and my design the second time worked great. The first time; I don't know what was going on but I couldn't get it to work. This time it took all of about 5 minutes to gently tap the OT into place. It's kind of nerve wracking when you start pounding into your brand new evaporator line. I don't know how anyone could get the OT in without making or using a tool. It seems like it'd easily snap in half if you don't have anything to support it and tried to push it in place.

I tightened up the system and pulled a vacuum but could only get it down to about 20. The system wasn't leaking and held the vacuum once I shut everything down, so the culprit was probably my $15 Harbor Freight venturi vacuum. :frown: I'll have to pick up another one and try again.

Winning! (so far)

[kings1527]

OK, one more question. I was sitting around thinking if I did it right:

How is the orifice tube supposed to sit once inside the evaporator? This was my process today:

1) I placed the OT inside the evaporator with my installation tool.

2) I tapped in into place and I could feel it firmly setting in place.

3) It kept going in for about 1.5" and it was real snug that whole way but the entire OT wasn't installed completely in the evaporator like I've been told to do.

4) I kept tapping the OT into place and then it finally "gave way" into the evaporator. At that point it was completely inside the evap tube.

5) But once it got to this point, it was no longer firm inside the evap tube. There is a little bit of play back and forth (maybe 8" at the very most) and I want to make sure it'll seal correctly. But I tried pushing it even more forward once it was completely inside the evap tube and it wont go any further almost like it was designed to do that and have the OT sit there; as if it won't get sucked inside the evaporator.


Did I go too far or is this right? Should I have stopped once it was real snug when I started? If I stopped at that point, it wouldn't have been completely in the tube and I have people tell me it has to be all the way inside.

Thanks again!

[Ron]

Oops..you must have missed post #62 (including Bitsy's quote)?

I assume you meant 1/8"?

It sounds like your tube was out of shape (too tight then too loose). It will not go any further because of the notch/stop DMCflux also mentioned (yes, it keeps the OT from from going into the evaporator).

If you are sure the o-ring will not seal, there are several options I can think of:
1. Send the evaporator back (cuss a lot, then beg and pray).
2. Borrow a flaring tool kit and try to "re-size/shape" the bulge with the piece that holds the pipe (I've seen it work more than once), if you do it with patience and have room.
3. Get a repair kit like Master Cool sells (Example at bottom of this post/link (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?2654-Orifice-Tube-Install&p=35987&viewfull=1#post35987)).

[kings1527]

Oops..you must have missed post #62 (including Bitsy's quote)?

I assume you meant 1/8"?

It sounds like your tube was out of shape (too tight then too loose). It will not go any further because of the notch/stop DMCflux also mentioned (yes, it keeps the OT from from going into the evaporator).

If you are sure the o-ring will not seal, there are several options I can think of:
1. Send the evaporator back (cuss a lot, then beg and pray).
2. Borrow a flaring tool kit and try to "re-size/shape" the bulge with the piece that holds the pipe (I've seen it work more than once), if you do it with patience and have room.
3. Get a repair kit like Master Cool sells (Example at bottom of this post/link (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?2654-Orifice-Tube-Install&p=35987&viewfull=1#post35987)).

Argggggg....

Thanks Ron. I did see those posts but I was going by the info I got from the vendor. I called and told them about my situation and they didn't think anything was wrong, other than the tube will go in. I just needed to keep at it. And yes, 1/8", thanks. I was going off the info that it needs to be fully seated (as I was told), even though if it was 50% seated then it would've been getting a good seal. Now that it's 100% seated, I have a little bit of play.

And just to be clear, as it's 100% seated, there shouldn't be any play at all? It should be basically "stuck" in there at that point?

Thanks again Ron.

[Ron]

NP!

RE "play": Hard to explain...when everything is new, it is not uncommon for you to be able to slide the OT right in (and out)...just a matter of whether it feels like the o-ring has enough drag to seal up.

FWIW- Not sure if you did or not, but I don't like the idea of trimming the tabs off since they hold the OT in line. The play could be you damaged the o-ring or partially rolled it out of its grove? -- the OT got cocked. Might be worth pulling back out and taking a look...

[Farrar]

Just a quick question about that "orifice tube repair kit." Is that simply a new length of pipe to insert the orifice tube into?

[Ron]

Just a quick question about that "orifice tube repair kit." Is that simply a new length of pipe to insert the orifice tube into?
What you do is cut the old one off to length (no flaring since it uses a compression coupling). You do have to be sure that the connector will match up to your incoming line...if that is a problem they make one that has compression couplings on both ends, which means you cut a section out and use the remains instead of simply cut it off to length. Example (I don't know if this one in particular will fit a D's diameter). (http://www.ebay.com/ctg/Four-Seasons-16153-A-C-Orifice-Tube-Repair-Kit-/79099546)

[Farrar]

Thanks, Ron. That sounds like a good option for me, rather than breaking yet another OT trying to install it in a likely bent evaporator pipe.

[kings1527]

Bring a parka! It's nice and cold!

As far as the OT goes, I decided to just go ahead with what I had and fill the system. The manufacturing of the evaporator might have been about 1/32" off in diameter and that's enough to ruin your day (Farrar) trying to get that OT in there. It doesn't take much to make you want to pull your hair out but the tool that I made from the 3/8" copper tube helped and it's seated fine with good pressures. Everything is working fine. My low side and high side pressures looked fine but I didn't have my thermometer with me to check the vent temp. I'll do that later and report back. Farrar, I think you're in the same boat as me and you might want to try what I did. My old evaporator was fine in terms of getting the OT to seat but this new one was a pain. After more testing, I was confident that my pipe wasn't bent; it was the diameter of the evap tube. So what'll happen when I have to get it out? I don't even want to think about it! I'll definitely have to melt it out of there. It'll break before you can pull it out but I'll worry about that when I have to.

Evaporator, hoses, accumulator, all seals, orifice tube (sucks), compressor (for aesthetic reasons since I completely redid my engine compartment but had my old dirty compressor still there), and low pressure switch (cheap and 'while you're there') were all replaced. I'll do a writeup on it ASAP and post it on my blog for those that are interested since we're getting into summer (at least in So Cal...felt like the sun was touching the earth the other day). I took TONS of pictures, particularly of the heater/AC box since I couldn't find any out there. I could only find the evap box and I had a hard time visualizing the whole thing.

FYI, when you're filling a system that's completely empty, it'll take a little more than 60 psi on the low side to make the compressor cycle. I thought my low side was way too high and the compressor wasn't cycling; I thought I had a problem. It just wasn't full enough as I was filling the system.

Again, thanks to everyone here that helped me get this going! I really appreciate everyone's expertise and advice! All the best!

[jawn101]

I guess I get to be the first to say congrats! You're gonna need it this year, I think.... :)

[kings1527]

I guess I get to be the first to say congrats! You're gonna need it this year, I think.... :)

Thanks, Jon! Yeah, I don't have to explain to you what CA heat can be like! :D But down in the south, I think they have us beat!