Engine Swap?

[Nick774]

So having to search for a new engine has got me thinking about what my options are as opposed to going stock again. I have found a few options for a stock motor and then there's this...

http://newjersey.craigslist.org/pts/3714822399.html

A Chevy 305 small block that has exhaust manifolds, TPI fuel injection, from a 1986 Chevy Camaro Z28.

Any thoughts?

[Mike C.]

Garbage motor. All the sound of a V8 with the power of a modern 4cyl.


If you are going to install a SBC into a car, do an LSx swap.

[Ryan King]

So having to search for a new engine has got me thinking about what my options are as opposed to going stock again. I have found a few options for a stock motor and then there's this...

http://newjersey.craigslist.org/pts/3714822399.html

A Chevy 305 small block that has exhaust manifolds, TPI fuel injection, from a 1986 Chevy Camaro Z28.

Any thoughts?

You have a nice early VIN. Please dont chop it up.

[thirdmanj]

You have a nice early VIN. Please dont chop it up.

:werd:

[Josh]

I fully agree with mike. You will be putting a mediocre amount of power to the wheels and guzzling gas doing so. Not to mention take a step back into the world of carburetors (some may disagree with me there). If this motor interests you because it is inexpensive I would reconsider; engine swaps can be costly reguardless of the engine price. There are many supporting systems that need to be upgraded or addressed (wiring, fuel, intake, etc)

As the the vin thing... It is your car do with it as you want!

[Nick774]

Honestly, Thats good enough for me. Merely toying with the idea of a bigger motor, Its still deep in my heart as a Delorean Nut to remain stock..to a degree. I love that its an early Vin and I shouldn't chop it up.
Im glad to be apart of a community to slap some sense into me :boxface: Thanks guys!!

[Josh]

The motor doesn't have to be larger displacement to put out better numbers than a PRV! I think a F/I I4 swap would be cool.

[Nicholas R]

I have always heard negative things about those engines. They're nicknamed the anchor or something arent they? Aren't they really low compression? Like 8.5 or 9:1 or something? If I recall correctly they dont even produce 200hp right? I could be wrong but thats my understanding. That was just a bad era for power output. Honestly, I would do the 4.3L vortec swap first. That motor has a lot of power potential and it fits so much better than a V8. I'm not trying to dissuade you from doing your swap but if you're going to go to the trouble, at least do it right. Also just be aware, that an engine swap is a lot of work. Like... a ridiculous amount of work. I would probably try to get some more info on that engine to see if anything else has been done to it. Good luck whatever you choose! :thumbup:

[Ryan King]

Honestly, Thats good enough for me. Merely toying with the idea of a bigger motor, Its still deep in my heart as a Delorean Nut to remain stock..to a degree. I love that its an early Vin and I shouldn't chop it up.
Im glad to be apart of a community to slap some sense into me :boxface: Thanks guys!!

Over my years of ownership I have seen plenty of cars on Ebay where people have started a conversion, realized it was way too much work/trouble, and just dump the project. Leaving it up to someone else to figure out what the hell to do with the car. And in some cases, they get parted out.

If you do a swap, actually follow through with it (Like Nick's Corvette engine, the DeLotus, and many others). Otherwise, don't waste your time chopping up a decent early VIN car.

[Nicholas R]

Over my years of ownership I have seen plenty of cars on Ebay where people have started a conversion, realized it was way too much work/trouble, and just dump the project. Leaving it up to someone else to figure out what the hell to do with the car. And in some cases, they get parted out.

If you do a swap, actually follow through with it (Like Nick's Corvette engine, the DeLotus, and many others). Otherwise, don't waste your time chopping up a decent early VIN car.

Want to know a secret? I was terrified through most of my project that this was a possibility. So many good cars get screwed up because people bite off more than they can chew (DeLoreans and non-DeLoreans). I was always worried that I would just hit an impasse and be either royally &$^%ed (like trying to figure out the starter :smashfreak::mecry:); or just burn out and give up on the project. This is pretty much the main reason I kept my swap a secret until the engine was running. I updated my blog (mainly for documentation) and my facebook periodically, but didn't put anything on the forum about the project until it was essentially completed. The last thing I wanted was to tell everyone "hey I'm going to do this really cool awesome thing that might destroy my car but hopefully wont!" then have to explain later how I was in over my head and really screwed up a car in the process. The main reason that I made the swap the design project for my degree was so that I always had that motivation to finish it. If I ever wanted to stop, I just had to remember that my degree depended on finishing the project. In addition, because it was my design project, I had to actually do a very comprehensive design. I couldn't just slap something together and assume it would work. I had to design it first and prove it would work to the engineering faculty THEN actually do the swap as a final proof of concept. Definitely forced me to do the homework and not cut corners, lol.

Just so we're clear, by NO means am I trying to convince you not to do an engine swap (come on... join the dark side...:deviltail:), I'm merely stating what was constantly going through my head during my swap. :Headspin:

[eagle-co94]

I agree with Nick on the 4.3 Vorte. A lot of the newer V6 engines out now make a lot of power. Just look at the new Challenger's v6. It makes 300 hp. when I get to that point I'm going to be looking at a v6 motor myself. They look like a lot less work for maybe 20 percent less horsepower. You probably don't need that much power in such a light car anyways.

[Starglider]

Merely toying with the idea of a bigger motor, Its still deep in my heart as a Delorean Nut to remain stock..to a degree.

The stock engine can be tuned to 200hp relatively easily (with new manifolds, exhausts and EFI). Ed or Josh can safely turbo the stock engine up to 250hp, 300hp if you go for twin-turbos. There are later PRVs out there that will make 400hp and still stay relatively close to the stock configuration. Of course this sort of modification gets expensive quick, an engine swap may be cheaper.

[Josh]

From what I have seen, extensively modifying the PRV is much more costly than doing a swap. You are also fairly limited for upgrade options compared to swapping in a more common engine.

[timothymoore]

Garbage motor. All the sound of a V8 with the power of a modern 4cyl.


If you are going to install a SBC into a car, do an LSx swap.

they about as much garbage as the PRV. That being said, they are both very reliable motors, just not as powerful as todays technology. putting a TPI 305 in a D would make as much sense as putting an Eagle 3.0 in the D as they both produced around the same HP if i am not mistaken.

[timothymoore]

I agree with Nick on the 4.3 Vorte. A lot of the newer V6 engines out now make a lot of power. Just look at the new Challenger's v6. It makes 300 hp. when I get to that point I'm going to be looking at a v6 motor myself. They look like a lot less work for maybe 20 percent less horsepower. You probably don't need that much power in such a light car anyways.

If you want to do a newer V6 engine swap , go with Ford's Eco-boost V6. produces around 360 HP.

[eagle-co94]

they about as much garbage as the PRV. That being said, they are both very reliable motors, just not as powerful as todays technology. putting a TPI 305 in a D would make as much sense as putting an Eagle 3.0 in the D as they both produced around the same HP if i am not mistaken.

My 1989 Eagle Premier was rated at 150hp from the factory with the cat installed.


If you want to do a newer V6 engine swap , go with Ford's Eco-boost V6. produces around 360 HP.
I think doing that would completely ruin any idea of a cost effective swap. Also 360hp is a bit much for the stock tranny.

[timothymoore]

My 1989 Eagle Premier was rated at 150hp from the factory with the cat installed.


I think doing that would completely ruin any idea of a cost effective swap. Also 360hp is a bit much for the stock tranny.

true, I guess I was just spouting off what my dream swap would be lol. it would be pricy but you could pick one up from the junk yard for around 1k depending on where you go. as far as trans reliability goes, if youre mechanically intelligent, you should make it work, if Nicholas R could do it with the LS1, you could do it with a twin turbo V6.

[eagle-co94]

I'm not so sure about their motor and would rather have the reliability of a V8 if that was my only choice. The last memorable V6 in a Ford was in the SHO...and boy did it really bug the factory tour people when asked "So if I want to buy the fastest, best equipped Ford Taurus made, I can't get it with an American made engine?"

[timothymoore]

I'm not so sure about their motor and would rather have the reliability of a V8 if that was my only choice. The last memorable V6 in a Ford was in the SHO...and boy did it really bug the factory tour people when asked "So if I want to buy the fastest, best equipped Ford Taurus made, I can't get it with an American made engine?"

even thought the eco-boost is currently built in spain, in 2015 according to my local news paper a few weeks ago, Ford is closing down that factory in spain and bringing the eco-boost engine to ohio in their manufacturing plant near Cleveland. creating 450 jobs. I plan on applying for one.

[eagle-co94]

Best of luck. Auto industry jobs are some of the highest paying jobs for the education/experience required.

The 5.7 Hemi in my Charger is built in Mexico...while the car itself was made in Canada.

[DMC3165]

You have a nice early VIN. Please dont chop it up.

He has an early VIN that's as anything but nice. No disrespect intended Nick.

As the former owner of 774 I'd say do the swap. That car is a perfect candidate, for a frame and motor swap. IMHO if I was looking to dump serious cash into it. I'd contact DPI about adapting one of his new tube chassis for a different powertrain.

What happened with the stock motor nick? Was the block bad or just decided to go a different direction?

[Nick774]

The stock motor has block rot around the number six cylinder jacket. pretty deep in fact. I have put some thought into what DPI has to offer for sure. As of right now My key missing ingredients are the frame and motor. Ive been doing what I can with the body and various components. Now that winter is gone I can finally break some knuckles on 774. Ive located a few possible frames and stock motors Im just planning my moves appropriately. My original intentions for the frame are out the window as it is way beyond worth welding. I really hope to have the D back on its wheels by the summer, engine or not. Also just a curve ball, a buddy from work offered me an 05' cobra motor? I still prefer stock though.

1792217923 I require a new cradle :banghead:

[Cartman]

If you want a good smal v8 get the v8 out of a volvo xc90 or s80. It's a yamaha developed 4.4 developing around 300hp stock. Its all aluminum so it's light, and it's werry reliable. It's also used in a few lexus models.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r53tE2aBO0A

[OverlandMan]

This is pretty much the main reason I kept my swap a secret until the engine was running. I updated my blog (mainly for documentation) and my facebook periodically, but didn't put anything on the forum about the project until it was essentially completed. The last thing I wanted was to tell everyone "hey I'm going to do this really cool awesome thing that might destroy my car but hopefully wont!" then have to explain later how I was in over my head and really screwed up a car in the process.

I wholeheartedly agree and respect this statement. I likely would have handled it the same way if I were in your shoes Nick.

[DMC3165]

The stock motor has block rot around the number six cylinder jacket. pretty deep in fact. I have put some thought into what DPI has to offer for sure. As of right now My key missing ingredients are the frame and motor. Ive been doing what I can with the body and various components. Now that winter is gone I can finally break some knuckles on 774. Ive located a few possible frames and stock motors Im just planning my moves appropriately. My original intentions for the frame are out the window as it is way beyond worth welding. I really hope to have the D back on its wheels by the summer, engine or not. Also just a curve ball, a buddy from work offered me an 05' cobra motor? I still prefer stock though.

1792217923 I require a new cradle :banghead:

05 Cobra motor would be sweet! In all honesty I'm not surprised the stock engine was rotted. It was on its last leg for a while. I wish you would've tried to fire it just to see if it still ran but odds are it wouldn't have. I think your on the right track with 774 a newer modern powertrain would be the way to go for me especially since the stock block is shot. Maybe you'll get lucky and find a used stock prv here. But unless you want a museum type resto it's not nesassary (IMO) and without the stock block it wouldn't matter much anyway. Keep at it Nick hopefully I'll see you at a DMA event or some other DeLo event soon!

[DMCVegas]

Just so we're clear, by NO means am I trying to convince you not to do an engine swap (come on... join the dark side...:deviltail:), I'm merely stating what was constantly going through my head during my swap. :Headspin:

After several years without my car and now just starting to settle down to get things in order to get my car back on the road, I too am looking at an engine swap. I've loved the '04 GTO since I first got to test drive one. About a month ago at a gas station I heard the roar of an engine before I looked up to see one turn the corner and take off. At that point I made up my mind that instead of spending the cash to buy a GTO, I'd much rather just drop and LS engine in behind me in the DeLorean and be done with it. Then I came across your blog.

After seeing the documentation of effort that went into your car, that gave me the confidence to move ahead with the project. It'll probably take a couple of years at least since I'll be doing this in my spare time. But I'm starting to plan things out. Since those input shaft couplers are no longer available, I'll most likely go with Porsche for the transaxle. I've already found a source that has the bellhousing ready to go.

Question: For things such as the motor mounts, oil pan, and other items, would you be willing to share your measurements with us so we can fab these items? Or even perhaps fab them for us for a fee?

[justlooking]

I have an input shaft coupler i can sell with the remainder of the tranny. Pm if interested

[DMCVegas]

I have an input shaft coupler i can sell with the remainder of the tranny. Pm if interested

PM sent.

After some searching and seeing an adaptor plate available for the Ford 302, I'm still open to other engines. Althogh the LSx series still seems to be more modern with it's power outputs and weights.

[eagle-co94]

I almost got an 05 Cobra that was totaled for 3 grand. It was in mint condition with about 30k miles but it was in Germany and I was loading mycontainer to come back in about three weeks so the sale had to have a fast. it didn't work out but if it did I would have put it in the back of my DeLorean.

[Nicholas R]

There are actually a LOT more parts available to adapt a Ford engine into a DeLorean because of the strong GT40 crowd. Join GT40s.com and you'll see what I mean. There are full kits available to adapt a ford with the DeLorean transmission because its used so frequently in GT40 replicas, and they use our transmission stock with their V8s! (though they were quite impressed when I showed them Toby's coupler). There are also single piece input shafts available for our transmission that are custom made to bolt up to ford engines with the exact offset, and to use a ford spline pattern.

Unfortunately pretty much none of that is available for Chevys because the idea of putting a Chevy engine into a GT40 replica is pretty much sacrilegious. Had I known all this before I did my swap, I may have considered a Ford engine instead. I also think the packaging on the fords is a little tighter and I wouldn't have run into so many spatial issues.

EDIT: actually, probably the biggest advantage to using Ford is the fact that Ford bell housings to mount to the DeLorean transmission are readily available, obviously eliminating any adapter plate needs or issues with offset of the input shaft and flywheel and clutch assembly. This also allows you to use a proper Ford starter instead of having to get creative, as well as allows you to use pretty much any ford clutch you like.

EDIT #2: Damn after rereading everything I just said I really should have gone with the Ford Motor. Life would have been soooooo much easier. :wow:

Anyone who is at all serious about doing an engine swap needs to join GT40s.com (http://gt40s.com) and spend a lot of time there researching all the options.

[Dangermouse]

So Nick, I'm curious, why don't the GT40 crowd just go with the tranny that their (presumably Ford sourced) V8 is normally paired with? I would assume there are several to choose from.

[Nicholas R]

So Nick, I'm curious, why don't the GT40 crowd just go with the tranny that their (presumably Ford sourced) V8 is normally paired with? I would assume there are several to choose from.

Because like the DeLorean, they need a transaxle. The GT40 is a mid engine car. The engine is forward of the transmission so they put the differential ring on the opposite side and flip the transmission around, but they still need the axles to go straight out the sides. (It's almost the exact set up as the Panteras) Ford does not have a production transaxle. I'm not sure what the real GT40s used back in the 70s when they were running the Lemans but I think it this point that's irrelevant

When doing the GT40s there are pretty much 3 transmissions they choose from, the Porsche 915 or G50, the ZF transmission that used in Panteras, and then our renault transmission (and then a few random ones use some Audi transaxle). Believe it or not our transmission has the most upgrades of all of them available. I always assumed that the Porsches and the ZF would be stronger than ours but if you spend much time on that site you'll learn that that is not a very common opinion. Our transmission is desirable because it's small, strong, not overly complex, and easily modifiable.

EDIT: Here are a few photos of GT 40s without their body shells. You'll notice they are using our transmissions. The one with no body is using the stock bell housing while the one with the yellow body is using a specialty bell housing. The other picture Is a Ford engine bolted to our transmission using a specially made bell housing. Those bell housings are readily available from several sources.

[Josh]

Thanks for the info nick! very valuable information. So it is my understanding these ford guys rip the guts out of the UN1 and replace them with reverse gears so they can flip the transmission around?

also I found this bellhousing. Very limited information but it is labelled "chevy v8"
http://www.gtoracing.co.uk/parts.php?list=UN1&page=4

[Nicholas R]

Thanks for the info nick! very valuable information. So it is my understanding these ford guys rip the guts out of the UN1 and replace them with reverse gears so they can flip the transmission around?

also I found this bellhousing. Very limited information but it is labelled "chevy v8"
http://www.gtoracing.co.uk/parts.php?list=UN1&page=4

That page has 4 bell housings available. 2 for different Fords, one Chevy and one lotus. Unfortunately, last year I contacted that company a they told me that they do not have any of the Chevys in stock and that I would have to purchase at least 5 for them to justify doing a run of them. They did however tell me they had many fords in stock, lol. Obviously that didn't help though. Believe me, if I could have gotten a Chevy bell housing I would have instead of making an adapter plate.

This is the main GT40 part supplier in the United States: http://www.1gt40.com/

Here are the related parts they sell:


ENGINE / TRANSAXLE

40-55 Ford 302 small block V8 engine. £POA
40-56 5 speed UN1 transaxle, RH change, modified 2nd & 3rd gears and drilled out oil ways. £1895
40-57 Limited slip differential gearbox option. £1200
40-57a Single Part Gearbox Input Shaft £2495
40-58 6 speed gearbox with limited slip diff. £6995

(Home base is still the UK which is why he prices are in pounds)

Also our transmission is unique in that the differential assembly can be flipped over depending on what orientation the transmission is in. In fact several Delorean owners have reassembled their transmissions with their differential backward only to find they have 5 reverse speeds and 1 forward.

[eagle-co94]

I'll be fine with running an adapter plate if I end up going that route. I just can't justify $1000 for a bellhousing.