Jalopnik and the DMC-24

[Dangermouse]

It's not often I would consider a Jalopnik related post in the main section, but this one looks to be actually pretty well researched and uses both Tamir's site and a former Pilot car owner's photos as points of reference, including this great sketch

http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18k7olo5hm86mjpg/ku-xlarge.jpg

http://jalopnik.com/the-proposed-delorean-sedan-is-as-coke-tastically-80s-472089598

[Exolis]

That is very weird looking... not sure the need for that extra room in the back row unless it were to be used as a mini-limo. The two engines would create a world of problems. I'm very glad this never made it to production.

[Ikeaboy1]

That is very weird looking... not sure the need for that extra room in the back row unless it were to be used as a mini-limo. The two engines would create a world of problems. I'm very glad this never made it to production.

The hideous profile of it did.

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[Rich W]

The two engines would create a world of problems. I'm very glad this never made it to production.

VW Experimented with the Twin Engine setup in the late 70's and early 80's. They had two working prototypes in the 80's, but no back seat.

http://jalopnik.com/5721237/the-dual+engined-volkswagen-that-never-was

[David T]

I am sure they were thinking ahead but that sketch with 2 motors must have just been a SWAG (Scientific Wild Ass Guess) kind of thing. Maybe they were just reusing a sketch and instead of starting all over just played with the idea of EITHER a front OR rear engine, not both. It is not unusual to throw out all kinds of ideas to discuss and even if the idea is no good some elements may actually have some merit. Anyway it makes sense that DMC was going to expand the product line. Taking an existing model and modifying it is always the easiest choice. That way you have parts commonality and less tooling and retraining. As for 2 motors in the same car, it makes more sense to put 1 bigger motor in that 2 smaller ones. Just a FYI Hybrids have 2 motors, one is electric and one is IC. Some have more than 1 electric motor.
David Teitelbaum

[Josh]

Interesting read! So if Delorean would have been in operation for a year or so more, there may have been two models.

I agree with David, looks like an either/or location for the engine. FWD or RWD

[Shep]

I'm surprised no one mentioned this yet. dmcjohn made a real-life DMC-24 (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?230-DMC-24-4-seater-DeLorean&p=54913&viewfull=1#post54913) a couple years ago. Started its life in Ireland, and now resides in New Jersey. The rear seats even fold down (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?230-DMC-24-4-seater-DeLorean&p=1292&viewfull=1#post1292) into their own parcel shelf. What's not to like?

[Tillsy]

So if Delorean would have been in operation for a year or so more, there may have been two models.

Or more, there were other endeavours such as the DMC-44...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtYgS2_S88Y

[Exolis]

As for 2 motors in the same car, it makes more sense to put 1 bigger motor in that 2 smaller ones. Just a FYI Hybrids have 2 motors, one is electric and one is IC. Some have more than 1 electric motor.
David Teitelbaum

That is true, however the 2 motors in a Hybrid system are connected to same transmission, therefore the torque to the drive-shaft is shared. I am curious as to what vehicle or OEM has a Hybrid system that has more than 1 Electric Motor?

[AugustneverEnds]

That is very weird looking... not sure the need for that extra room in the back row unless it were to be used as a mini-limo. The two engines would create a world of problems. I'm very glad this never made it to production.

Csaba Csere, former editor of Car & Driver, installed two engines in an early 90's Honda CRX. I heard someone still has it though I'm not sure what state it is in. Definently an out there project.

[Rich W]

I'm surprised no one mentioned this yet. dmcjohn made a real-life DMC-24 (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?230-DMC-24-4-seater-DeLorean&p=54913&viewfull=1#post54913) a couple years ago. Started its life in Ireland, and now resides in New Jersey. The rear seats even fold down (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?230-DMC-24-4-seater-DeLorean&p=1292&viewfull=1#post1292) into their own parcel shelf. What's not to like?

This is where part of the confusion comes in. The DMC 24 designation was given to the 4-door sedan project, not the 2+2 Project that was penned
by Giorgetto Giugiaro at Ital Design, way back in 1975. The 2+2 design sketch was based on the original DeLorean prototype design (Proto-1).

The JZD sketches (as seen on Tamir's webite and other sources) were created in 1979, based around a 4-door sedan concept. Some of the DMC 24
Concept artwork is based on the Lancia Medusa (ItalDesign), 1980 proto-type design, adding to the confusion.

[Rich W]

Interesting read! So if Delorean would have been in operation for a year or so more, there may have been two models.

I agree with David, looks like an either/or location for the engine. FWD or RWD


I prefer Rick Gendreau's solution ... Both.

http://jalopnik.com/5515196/twin-engined-delorean/

[Rich W]

It's not often I would consider a Jalopnik related post in the main section, but this one looks to be actually pretty well researched and uses both Tamir's site and a former Pilot car owner's photos as points of reference, including this great sketch

http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18k7olo5hm86mjpg/ku-xlarge.jpg

http://jalopnik.com/the-proposed-delorean-sedan-is-as-coke-tastically-80s-472089598


New Story ... with more details (via James Espey).

http://jalopnik.com/the-secret-history-of-the-delorean-that-became-a-lambor-472631160

[David T]

My DD is a GMC Yukon Hybrid and it has 2 electric motors in the transmission. In fact, there is no torque converter anymore and for reverse you are on electric power only! The gas pedal is no longer physically connected to the motor. It goes to a switch and the computer controls everything! The computer shuts the IC motor off into "autostart mode" and runs the car on battery under certain conditions. The first time it did that and the oil pressure went to ZERO while I was driving I thought the motor blew up! The computer also shuts off 1/2 of the motor going from V 8 mode to V 4 mode. When you use the brakes it charges the batteries using the 2 motors as generators. I get almost 20 MPG! As for the two motor Delorean, that has been done. Gets about 50 miles on a tank of gas. It sits on the passenger's lap.
David Teitelbaum

[David T]

The Delorean was based on an earlier design too. Look at the Marzal by Bertone. This goes back to 1967 at the Geneva Auto show. The Marzal even had gull wing doors! This was a concept car for Lamborghini. GG HAD to have seen them and was inspired by them to create his own design.
David Teitelbaum

[Rich W]

Rick G. gets about 20 mpg with just the Honda engine
and about 80 miles between stops with a 5 gallon fuel
cell (his initial fuel tank), with about a 1 gallon reserve.
It's a very interesting "proof of concept" vehicle.

[Shep]

This is where part of the confusion comes in. The DMC 24 designation was given to the 4-door sedan project, not the 2+2 Project that was penned by Giorgetto Giugiaro at Ital Design, way back in 1975.Ah, but making it a 2+2 is half the battle! Can't make four doors useful with two seats, and dmcjohn needed to do major modifications to the suspension and frame to even have room for the rear seats. After that, it's just a matter of designing the body/exterior to accommodate four doors :) (Although I'm sure it's much more complicated than that; no one has yet made a production four-door gullwing before that could park in a "regulation" parking spot.)

I came across some 3D models that a guy by the name of "coaster" (VIN 1441) posted on the old forums (thank you bookmarks and archive.org!), and he did a proof-of-concept 3D model of a four-door DeLorean that I personally think would've been perfect:

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=18141&d=1365825151
http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=18142&d=1365825154
http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=18143&d=1365825157

Big blind spots without the rear windows though. Particularly interesting choice to make the top louver part of the rear doors. I'm sure with shorter seats there would be more legroom; looks pretty cramped in there! ;)

[matt clark]

Was he the guy who did the rendering of a D with a glass hatch like an Esprit rather than the louvres? It needed a bit of work but I really liked that.

[Shep]

Was he the guy who did the rendering of a D with a glass hatch like an Esprit rather than the louvres? It needed a bit of work but I really liked that.Indeed he was! All his renders are on imageshack here (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/691/delrenderertop.jpg/), mixed in with some pictures of his real DeLorean and someone's house. The glass hatchback is in the last two on there. Considering how hot the cabin gets on a sunny day, I can't imagine cooking the engine in its own incubator would be a good idea without an upgraded cooling system, particularly with the wide pontoons catching a lot more sun, but it still looks nice! :)

[matt clark]

What does the Esprit do for cooling? I'm assuming a very 'black' tinted glass like it appears to be in the render would help keep cabin temps down, but yes, I guess you're right - that wouldn't help the engine much.

(I still really like it, though)

Edit: ah yes

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/7131/glassback4seaterrender5.jpg

It'd work better if the rear glass was in line with the 3/4 panel window, which obviously has framing issues - maybe if the back hatch was all black glass with a stainless strip at the bottom. It's a great concept, though.

[Tillsy]

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/7131/glassback4seaterrender5.jpg

Looks very odd with the rear wheels set so far back...

[Shep]

Looks very odd with the rear wheels set so far back...You can tell it was a work in progress, so he probably was going to fix that. Take a look at the taillights, left one's complete, right one's not.

By the way, when viewing that gallery, if you want the full-size, right-click the image, copy the URL that pops up, and open that URL in a new tab. For some reason the "usual" method isn't working right now.

[dmcjohn]

You can tell it was a work in progress, so he probably was going to fix that. Take a look at the taillights, left one's complete, right one's not.

By the way, when viewing that gallery, if you want the full-size, right-click the image, copy the URL that pops up, and open that URL in a new tab. For some reason the "usual" method isn't working right now.

The glass hatch at the back was one of the ideas I had for the dmc24 4 seater, so when I saw coasters original 3d drawing, I asked him to mock up one with a glass hatch, the result of which is the picture posted above, which I think looked great.

The reason I asked for the wheel arch to be moved back was because this was a front engine design I was thinking of - different to Rick Gendreau's twin engine design in that I was planning a longitudinal front mounted 4 cylinder, driving the rear wheels. It would have worked great but in the end when I figured out how to make the rear engine design work for the 4 seater, I went with that instead, to keep in as close as possible to what DMC might have come up with.

John

[dmcjohn]

This is where part of the confusion comes in. The DMC 24 designation was given to the 4-door sedan project, not the 2+2 Project that was penned
by Giorgetto Giugiaro at Ital Design, way back in 1975. The 2+2 design sketch was based on the original DeLorean prototype design (Proto-1).

The JZD sketches (as seen on Tamir's webite and other sources) were created in 1979, based around a 4-door sedan concept. Some of the DMC 24
Concept artwork is based on the Lancia Medusa (ItalDesign), 1980 proto-type design, adding to the confusion.

Rich - the only person who seems to be confused is you. You're statement above is completely wrong!

The dmc24 is the project code name given in the long range product planning meeting where the concepts for the 4 seater DeLorean were discussed.

http://jalopnik.com/the-secret-history-of-the-delorean-that-became-a-lambor-472631160

Read the article above which gives a nice background on it, and then follow the link from the article to see the full report from the original DMC.

I've attached a screenshot from the 3rd page, and highlighted the main bits, which are basically confirming the DMC24 model number was intended to be a 2 door, 4 seater, stainless skinned, rear engine version of the dmc12 - which is exactly what my car is.

18194

When I came across that document while contemplating my project, that was the end of any notions of making the car front engined, or painted (as I had also considered). The goal then became to make the car as close to the DMC24 concept as possible.

I just wish that DMC had made the car as a 2+2 in the beginning, it would have saved me and my friends a lot of work!

John

[Rich W]

Rich - the only person who seems to be confused is you. You're statement above is completely wrong!

The dmc24 is the project code name given in the long range product planning meeting where the concepts for the 4 seater DeLorean were discussed.

http://jalopnik.com/the-secret-history-of-the-delorean-that-became-a-lambor-472631160

Read the article above which gives a nice background on it, and then follow the link from the article to see the full report from the original DMC.

I've attached a screenshot from the 3rd page, and highlighted the main bits, which are basically confirming the DMC24 model number was intended to be a 2 door, 4 seater, stainless skinned, rear engine version of the dmc12 - which is exactly what my car is.

18194

When I came across that document while contemplating my project, that was the end of any notions of making the car front engined, or painted (as I had also considered). The goal then became to make the car as close to the DMC24 concept as possible.

I just wish that DMC had made the car as a 2+2 in the beginning, it would have saved me and my friends a lot of work!

John

According to the Jalopnik articles, there were several sources of inspiration for the DMC 24 project, including drawings, sketches and photos
of concepts that are obviously NOT the same car ... no confusion there. Maybe there are drawings, sketches or photos in the actual report?

18219

18220

18221

Out of the drawings, sketches and photos in the Jalopnik articles, the Ital Design 2+2 sketch looks look most like dmcjohn's 4-seater.
Note the project name and date in the upper left corner of the sketch.

18222

18223

While it is great to pick and choose some items from the report that support dmcjohn's reference to his car, there are plenty of other items
in the report that do not match up with dmcjohn's car, such as most of the items in the list on Page 10 and in the Addendum Page 2.

18224

18225

It seems that dmcjohn's original idea of lengthening the wheel-base (similar to length indicated on Addendum Page 2) would have been closer
to the DMC 24 concept than the current result, which appears to more closely resemble the 2+2 sketch.

Plenty of other features in the DMC 24 Plan were not included in dmcjohn's car, to the extent that they were detailed in the Addendum section.

If someone has official DMC 24 drawings, sketches or photos from the DMC 24 Plan, feel free to post them or link to them.
I know that would clear up any confusion that I have (but then again, maybe I am the only one).

[Dangermouse]

According to the Jalopnik articles, there were several sources of inspiration for the DMC 24 project, including drawings, sketches and photos
of concepts that are obviously NOT the same car ... no confusion there. Maybe there are drawings, sketches or photos in the actual report?



18220



Seems like someone tried to photoshop a version of this Medusa concept

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=18226&d=1366052097

[dmcjohn]

Hi Rich,

I don't think I've ever seen you admit to being wrong! ;)

Your post was in reply to Shep's reference to my car as a DMC24, which apparently you have a problem with as you incorrectly thought that the DMC24 codename is for a 4 door car, not a 2 door. You also imply that I'm causing confusion by referring to my car as a representation of how a DMC24 might have turned out.

Of course you're entitled to your opinion, but at least try to base your opinion on facts. I personally haven't seen any documentation that links a 4 door concept with the codename DMC24, but maybe there is something out there. But the fact is that there is documentation linking a 2 door 4 seater car with codename DMC24, so in my opinion it's fair enough to refer to my car as a representation of how the DMC24 may have turned out. I agree it doesn't match every detail on the document, but I think it's close enough to what a DMC24 prototype may have feasibly looked like.

Even based on the specs from the end of that document which you refer to, it still looks quite like they were planning a 2+2 concept to me rather than a proper 4 seater. Based on the wheelbase estimation of 108 to 110 inches, it is actually still pretty close to the original Giugario 2+2 sketch, which I calculate at about 103.25 inches. (in that sketch, wheelbase is 2.3 times the height, height = 44.9, therefore wheelbase as sketched is approximately 103.27 inches).

So if they're only thinking of another 5 inches or so, and they even list the length of the car as "subject to design", then I think it's not a stretch to conclude that they were not picturing a full 4 seater with the addition of only 5 inches.

In my opinion, the reason they are increasing the wheelbase to allow for rear seats is because they hadn't yet considered a rear suspension redesign as I did with my car. The giugario sketch clearly shows the rear passenger's back being ahead of the leading edge of the rear wheel, which is unnecessary if the trailing arm is disposed of.

My point is - I'm probably pretty close to their planned interior room in the back seat in my design, without having to increase the wheelbase. Given that their document lists the length of the car as "subject to design", and gives a range for wheelbase length, it is safe to assume they were at the early planning stages and needed to work out a lot of details when it came to building some prototypes.

I don't know if they would have considered doing it the way my car is done, but I'd like to think they'd have certainly given it consideration as an option had it been suggested in those meetings.

At the end of the day, I've no intention of ever trying to confuse people, or to suggest my car is in any way a real DMC24 prototype. I do however think that after the effort put in by my friends and I in building the car, and also that it's my opinion that it satisfies the major design specs outlined in the product planning document, that it is fair to call it a representation of what a DMC24 prototype could have looked like. I intend to include some subtle DMC24 logos into the car, such as wheel centercaps, sidestripe, and a vanity plate reading DMC24, but will always present it as a representation/interpretation of what could have been - I don't think I'm being misleading in that. I've attached the poster I made up for the car for when it was displayed at Eurofest so that you can see how I represent it.

18234

If you still think I'm causing confusion and that the car shouldn't be referred to as DMC24, then I'll try not to lose sleep over it!

While I have your attention Rich - can you explain to me why you've delete all the posts I ever posted in your subforum about your projects? I asked many genuine questions which have all been deleted. I would ask in your subforum, but you know, you'd probably delete that too!

Regards,
John

[Rich W]

Hi Rich,

I don't think I've ever seen you admit to being wrong! ;)

Your post was in reply to Shep's reference to my car as a DMC24, which apparently you have a problem with as you incorrectly thought that the DMC24 codename is for a 4 door car, not a 2 door. You also imply that I'm causing confusion by referring to my car as a representation of how a DMC24 might have turned out.

Of course you're entitled to your opinion, but at least try to base your opinion on facts. I personally haven't seen any documentation that links a 4 door concept with the codename DMC24, but maybe there is something out there. But the fact is that there is documentation linking a 2 door 4 seater car with codename DMC24, so in my opinion it's fair enough to refer to my car as a representation of how the DMC24 may have turned out. I agree it doesn't match every detail on the document, but I think it's close enough to what a DMC24 prototype may have feasibly looked like.

Even based on the specs from the end of that document which you refer to, it still looks quite like they were planning a 2+2 concept to me rather than a proper 4 seater. Based on the wheelbase estimation of 108 to 110 inches, it is actually still pretty close to the original Giugario 2+2 sketch, which I calculate at about 103.25 inches. (in that sketch, wheelbase is 2.3 times the height, height = 44.9, therefore wheelbase as sketched is approximately 103.27 inches).

So if they're only thinking of another 5 inches or so, and they even list the length of the car as "subject to design", then I think it's not a stretch to conclude that they were not picturing a full 4 seater with the addition of only 5 inches.

In my opinion, the reason they are increasing the wheelbase to allow for rear seats is because they hadn't yet considered a rear suspension redesign as I did with my car. The giugario sketch clearly shows the rear passenger's back being ahead of the leading edge of the rear wheel, which is unnecessary if the trailing arm is disposed of.

My point is - I'm probably pretty close to their planned interior room in the back seat in my design, without having to increase the wheelbase. Given that their document lists the length of the car as "subject to design", and gives a range for wheelbase length, it is safe to assume they were at the early planning stages and needed to work out a lot of details when it came to building some prototypes.

I don't know if they would have considered doing it the way my car is done, but I'd like to think they'd have certainly given it consideration as an option had it been suggested in those meetings.

At the end of the day, I've no intention of ever trying to confuse people, or to suggest my car is in any way a real DMC24 prototype. I do however think that after the effort put in by my friends and I in building the car, and also that it's my opinion that it satisfies the major design specs outlined in the product planning document, that it is fair to call it a representation of what a DMC24 prototype could have looked like. I intend to include some subtle DMC24 logos into the car, such as wheel centercaps, sidestripe, and a vanity plate reading DMC24, but will always present it as a representation/interpretation of what could have been - I don't think I'm being misleading in that. I've attached the poster I made up for the car for when it was displayed at Eurofest so that you can see how I represent it.

18234

If you still think I'm causing confusion and that the car shouldn't be referred to as DMC24, then I'll try not to lose sleep over it!

While I have your attention Rich - can you explain to me why you've delete all the posts I ever posted in your subforum about your projects? I asked many genuine questions which have all been deleted. I would ask in your subforum, but you know, you'd probably delete that too!

Regards,
John

Hi John,

In response to this thread "Jalopnik and the DMC-24", my reference to the confusion over a possible 4-door sedan was how Jalopnik presented it,
not how the details of the DMC-24 Programme is reported in the official plan. The photo used and text at the top of the article are mis-leading.

18235

As for your 4-seater project, I have no problem with the actual car, the build or anything about the project. Even using the name DMC-24 did not
really matter to me (it's your car...call it what you want) until I saw an apparent double-standard, with comments about naming another project car.

18236

While I agree that everyone has their opinion and interpretation, you assumed that someone else was planning to tell the public that their car was
something it was not and that it was somehow misleading and a disservice to the DMC history for not fully explaining it. Really? The project is not
even complete and you know what he wants or intends to be able to call it once it is done?

As for using the name DMC-24 for your project, could this also be considered "misleading and a disservice to the DMC history". Granted, your last
post, including the poster text, does go a long way to explain the scope of the project, but it does use the 2+2 sketch that was never linked with
the official Sedan plan. If the 2+2 sketch was used as the guide, why not just call it a 2+2 coupe?

Again, it's your project, so you get to call it what you want.

Regards,
Rich W.

[dmcjohn]

until I saw an apparent double-standard, with comments about naming another project car.

18236

While I agree that everyone has their opinion and interpretation, you assumed that someone else was planning to tell the public that their car was
something it was not and that it was somehow misleading and a disservice to the DMC history for not fully explaining it. Really? The project is not
even complete and you know what he wants or intends to be able to call it once it is done?

As for using the name DMC-24 for your project, could this also be considered "misleading and a disservice to the DMC history". .

Nice tangent there while avoiding my questions!

Anyway - I'll explain although really I shouldn't have to. Maybe this comes from having lived in Ireland, and having had pretty much the same regulations as the UK when it comes to cars. Unlike license plates in the US, plates in Ireland and the UK tell you what year the car is.

Reading that thread, obviously I've no problem with him doing whatever he wants to his car, but the bit I don't agree with is actively seeking out a new 2013 year registration when the car has a 33 year old vin plate attached to it. No-one in their right mind would actively look to register the car as a new car (and the extra costs associated with this, including insurance), unless they had a motivation to do so. The DVLA would register that as a 1983 car no problem and no questions asked, however they'll probably also be happy to take your extra money if you tell a story about rebuilding the car with new parts etc.

Keeping it short - when I combine in my mind the question of why someone would consider trying to get a 2013 plate for their car, and then they make comments like "this will be the first official DMC built since 1983" and "genuine 2013 car", then I think uh-huh. It sounds a bit like the other guy in England who was trying to pass off his BTTF car as an official Universal screen-used car, when in reality it was just used at some awards show by them. Driving around in a 2013 registered car, and calling it official and genuine etc doesn't sit well with me, so I simply expressed my opinion on that.


Really? The project is not even complete and you know what he wants or intends to be able to call it once it is done? .
Just giving an opinion on what he said himself in his own words in that thread.

Regards,
John.