Clutch suddenly slipping?

[jawn101]

This weekend some local Nor Cal owners (myself included) took a very ambitious trip way up the California Pacific Coast Highway. Long, winding roads dozens of miles from anywhere.

All the cars really outperformed all of our expectations in every way, with one (well, two) exceptions. Two of us both started having issues with our clutches slipping, at virtually the exact same time. I'm not talking difficulty disengaging, I'm talking about foot off the pedal, trying to accelerate in 3rd or 4th gear and having the revs climb but nothing happen. If you push the pedal all the way in, the clutch disengages and the revs fall to a nice, correct idle.

Some background, before the inevitable questions begin :)

- Both have new hydraulics. Not sure when Stephens went in, but mine are only about 8 months old. New master, new slave, stainless line.
- My entire hydraulic system was completely flushed of fluid at that time. My car has 100% Castrol GT LMA in it and it is also only about 8 months old. The reservoir is clean and full, the fluid crystal clear.
- My pilot bearing, throw out bearing, clutch fork, pressure plate and clutch disk are also brand new and went in at the same time as the hydraulics. I'd estimate about 4,000 miles on them. Stephen's are all original but have only about 13k on them.
- No leaks in the master or slave are evident
- The problem only just started, after two days of extremely "spirited" driving through the twisty redwood highways. I had experienced it very briefly last weekend after a parade, when I was working the clutch pretty hard as well.

It was observed during our only emergency roadside stop that both Stephen and I have adjustable clevis rods to the master cylinder. Backing the rods all the way out definitely helped the problem, but did not fix it completely.

On the regular interstate coming home, the RPM to MPH correlation was perfect - 5th gear, 2500 RPM, 65 MPH - and the ratios held true at constant speeds. There only really seemed to be an issue during heavy acceleration (up or down a mountain pass or around a hairpin, etc)

Anyone have any thoughts? It was pretty harrowing towards the end of the drive to be dealing with this.

I know the solutions may be different for the two cars since they have some major differences, so I'm mostly asking about my own car and then will try to apply anything I learn to helping Stephen out with his.

Also, for what it's worth - the ambient temperature was very moderate. High 60s, low 70s on the coast.

[Nicholas R]

Is it still doing it? Even now after everything (clutch/flywheel/pressure plate) has cooled down?

Some drivers prefer to brake using the brakes, where others prefer engine braking. Just like how brakes can fade as they heat up and require more force, clutches do too. However, as long as you dont overheat them they usually end up okay.

The two of you sound like engine brakers. If you were driving really aggressively with a lot of clutching, especially a lot of downshifting to slow the car, it's definitely possible to experience clutch fade. Different clutch materials are affected differently but I know the stock DeLorean clutch is certainly nothing special. Do you both have the same type of clutch disc? A lot of repeated engine braking causes the clutch to get extremely hot. Just think; when you're reving the engine at 3000 rpm, your clutch/flywheel are spinning 50 times every second; at 6000rpm its 100 times a second. When those are constantly engaging and disengaging at that speed, just imagine how much friction there is and how much heat builds up.

[jawn101]

Nick -

Good point. I had thought about this but didn't think I was being that hard on it. Maybe our brief stop to adjust those piston turnbuckles was a placebo and what actually helped was some cool-down time.

I had no problems at all the first day. But I remember asking at lunch what gear people were using. Stephen mentioned that he preferred to use a lower gear (higher rev) to keep the engine from bogging down. I became conscious of that situation and started running a little higher too, especially on the second day, which is when I started having issues.

I haven't driven the car since we got home, but it's been parked overnight and I will test it out this evening and report back.

As for our clutch materials, like I said - we are pretty sure his is factory original. Mine is new from Josh and looked to be an average Valeo material, it's not a Centerforce or anything fancy.

[David T]

You both need to replace your clutches. Just a coincidence both of you just happened to need clutches at the same time. The spirited driving pushed you both over the edge. Remove the adjustable link too.
David Teitelbaum

[jawn101]

Perhaps you didn't read that mine is brand new.

[David T]

If it is slipping it is no longer "Brand New". Maybe it was installed incorrectly, the parts are defective, or you leaked oil all over it and contaminated the clutch disc. In any case, it is coming out. When you remove your foot from the clutch pedal and the clutch slips there is no adjustment to "fix" it. As for mileage on a clutch, a common question is how long it should last. The answer is "It Depends". They <can> last as long as 100,000 miles and as short as 10 miles. Like they say, your mileage may vary. If you flog the car you can blow a clutch in a puff of smoke.
David Teitelbaum

[jawn101]

We are taking my motor out in a few weeks anyway to look at a minor oil leak around the pan. I will examine the clutch disk at that time. But it has been far from driven "hard" - one day of mountains is tough to reconcile with a failed disk, particularly since the other cars doing the exact same thing with much older clutches had no issues.

[louielouie2000]

If it is slipping it is no longer "Brand New". Maybe it was installed incorrectly, the parts are defective, or you leaked oil all over it and contaminated the clutch disc. In any case, it is coming out. When you remove your foot from the clutch pedal and the clutch slips there is no adjustment to "fix" it. As for mileage on a clutch, a common question is how long it should last. The answer is "It Depends". They <can> last as long as 100,000 miles and as short as 10 miles. Like they say, your mileage may vary. If you flog the car you can blow a clutch in a puff of smoke.
David Teitelbaum

From what I've seen & experienced, original DeLorean clutches tend to last around 30,000 to 40,000 miles. Even if he did flog it, I just don't think the PRV has enough power to kill a clutch in that amount of time. I think the only reason the original clutches give up after so few miles is simply due to age. I find it extremely hard to believe jawn101's replacement clutch is giving up the ghost after only 4,000 miles. If his clutch wasn't installed correctly, he would have known long ago, too. The replacement clutch on my first DeLorean wasn't installed correctly, and I knew immediately.

[jawn101]

From what I've seen & experienced, original DeLorean clutches tend to last around 30,000 to 40,000 miles. Even if he did flog it, I just don't think the PRV has enough power to kill a clutch in that amount of time. I think the only reason the original clutches give up after so few miles is simply due to age. I find it extremely hard to believe jawn101's replacement clutch is giving up the ghost after only 4,000 miles. If his clutch wasn't installed correctly, he would have known long ago, too. The replacement clutch on my first DeLorean wasn't installed correctly, and I knew immediately.

I tend to agree, and not just because a clutch replacement is a crap job. We are going to be "in there" anyway so that isn't my issue. The issue is that I don't drive hard - my D is a pleasure craft and enjoys a life of leisure. Mostly very short trips with extended cool-downs, mostly low speed. This was the first real drive with spirit that the clutch has seen. I can maybe see that oil had gotten onto it, but if so it wouldn't be more than maybe a drop or two as the car has a minor drop-per-drive issue, it's not like I add a quart a week or anything.

I had a real, proper defective clutch my first attempt from one of the vendors. It was immediately obvious as it would not disengage no matter what.

[David T]

I did not say YOU flogged the car, I only mention it as a possible cause. As for it being defective, typically you do know immediately but not always. If the pressure plate is not set up correctly, a little wear and it will start slipping. Other possibilities include hardware that comes loose, bad throwout bearing, bent shifter fork, dirty splines, etc. When you get it apart the cause should be obvious. As you understand, the only way to know exactly what the problem is and fix it is removal of the engine or transmission.
David Teitelbaum

[DMCMW Dave]

This car does not need the adjustble master linkage.

If used it is very easy to set it wrong. If set too long in an effort to raise the pedal engagement off the floor, the clutch will slip. If it is tight, the clutch will slip especially when hot. There should be the slightest amount of free play in the linkage so that you are sure the master cylinder piston is all the way out with your foot off the pedal.

[vwdmc16]

I can attest to Jons claim, he was not driving hard. I was ahead of him and driving much harder and faster on the exact same roads. my clutch has about 25,000 miles on it and it did just fine the whole trip.

[jawn101]

This car does not need the adjustble master linkage.

If used it is very easy to set it wrong. If set too long in an effort to raise the pedal engagement off the floor, the clutch will slip. If it is tight, the clutch will slip especially when hot. There should be the slightest amount of free play in the linkage so that you are sure the master cylinder piston is all the way out with your foot off the pedal.

Yeah, Dave - I do remember you saying this before and I brought it up as we were laying on the side of the road trying to coax a little extra play out of the linkage. Is it possible to remove and replace that link with the MC still in the car? I have a brand new, never installed original non-adjustable MC linkage in my parts box.

[sdg3205]

Hey John,

try taking a clean, dry rag (if you haven't already!) and stuff it under the slave. Leave it for 24 hrs and check it. Maybe you'll find it a little damp. All my brand new, 0 mile DMCH clutch and brake gear does or has leaked due to faulty check valves, seals, etc. I won't get into my story, but it was the last thing I expected to say the least.

A few drops from the slave may have been the culprit.

Just my 2 cents.

[jawn101]

Hey John,

try taking a clean, dry rag (if you haven't already!) and stuff it under the slave. Leave it for 24 hrs and check it. Maybe you'll find it a little damp. All my brand new, 0 mile DMCH clutch and brake gear does or has leaked due to faulty check valves, seals, etc. I won't get into my story, but it was the last thing I expected to say the least.

A few drops from the slave may have been the culprit.

Just my 2 cents.

My new hydraulics are from Hervey, not DMCH. They have the stainless sleeves in them, I figured that was the best possible compromise after some of the things I'd heard about the Houston cylinders. I will try jamming a cloth under there and see what happens. I do think my rear main might be seeping (part of the reason I plan to take the motor out again) so there may be a few drops of motor oil on there. What can be done to correct it if the disk has oil on it?

Still curious if it's possible to replace the rod in the MC with the original style without taking the whole car apart again, if so I'll test that out first.

[Rich]

It was observed during our only emergency roadside stop that both Stephen and I have adjustable clevis rods to the master cylinder. Backing the rods all the way out definitely helped the problem, but did not fix it completely.


Very sorry to hear about two limp-home events on the club trip.

I'm with Dave S. and others on tossing the adjustable clevises and going back to the OEM link. Am not quite yet to the "clutch is fully dead" conclusion.

A question and a statement in anticipation of the answer:
Q: Have you both noticed that your clutch pedal engagement points were rather high for a while now or at least on this trip? That is, the clutch was very easy to disengage and only grabbed as the pedal was just about all the way released?

I'm guessing the answer is yes.

One or both of your cars may have been running with the clutch only 90% engaged for a long time. During that time the clutch could have been slipping and thus wearing prematurely. But perhaps not wearing "out".

Further, on the long trip there could have been some expansion of the clutch fluid such that the slave started to disengage a tad more or you just eventually wore enough clutch lining out that the old engagement point is not "clamped" enough anymore.

You do have one hope, at least. You already have planned this, I think.
1. Test drive it with the link in place as it is now. See if the problem is still there.
2. Replace the link with the old clevis and repeat.

Note the 1st-gear clutch engagement points in both conditions as you start from a stop. Hope that the old clevis puts the engagement point back in the middle of the clutch travel you may find that your clutch really is "still there". It just was not being activated the way it was designed to be.

I don't remember if a closed-down adj.link is shorted than the OEM clevis. If it is then forget all this....

Fingers crossed here....

[DMC5180]

Jon,

Poke your head under the dash and watch the the movement of the Clutch master pushrod, while moving the the Clutch pedal with your hand. If adjusted correctly, you should be able to see slight free movement of the Rod before it positively contacts the piston cup. Then about 1/8 -1/4 inch of continued movement inward of the rod/piston before you really feel the resistance of the clutch. The point being if you don't free play movement in the clevis push rod, then the Master Cylinder piston is not fully retracted against the internal Snap Ring. If you do have the free play, I suppose it's possible you may have an issue with the pressure plate to Flywheel surface. When the Clutch was previously replaced did the Flywheel get the correct machining process done to it?

[jawn101]

Thanks all for the feedback. Rich - will do for sure. I am going to see if the rod can be swapped easily. No one has any idea if that's doable without removing the master?

Dennis - same reply, thanks much. Yes, the flywheel was replaced with a freshly machined one from DPI at the same time, proper step and all.

[Rich]

I am going to see if the rod can be swapped easily. No one has any idea if that's doable without removing the master?

I replace mine long, long ago without the clutch master moving. Just pop the pins at each end. Are you asking because you can see that your linkage is really tight, load-wise?

With the OEM link in there I am seeing 1/2 inch of free play - the pedal is pulled back by a spring and it takes half an inch before the linkage tightens and the master rod starts to move. And the pins are of course unloaded (no shear load at all) in this as-parked condition.

If the pins on your adjustable link/clevis are tight as it sits without you in the car then it fits with the "clutch is already partially disengaged even when you think it isn't" theory. There should be NO master piston load when the pedal is free.



And, just checking: Did you have a "high" clutch pedal all these months before this failure? Not high physically, high in that it disengaged within the first half inch or inch of pedal movement.

[Rich]

I am going to see if the rod can be swapped easily.

PS, Jon, what do you mean about swapping "the rod"? The master piston rod isn't going anywhere.

You want to dump the adjustable clevis to the left of the steering column and put in the proper link. That is the "rod" you meant?

This one?
http://store.delorean.com/p-7539-link.aspx

One more test suggestion. Before pulling out the adjustable clevis check to see if the last link pin is tight. The one at the end of the master cyl. piston beneath the dash where it connects to the clutch crank. Pin should spin freely with clutch pedal at rest because there is no preload to the clutch master. If that pin is tight then you may be "riding the clutch" all the time due to the clevis situation no matter where your left foot is.

[DMCMW Dave]

I leaky rear engine main will not get the clutch wet. It's on the wrong side of the flywheel. I've also never seen a leaky slave get the clutch disc wet. The fluid just runs down and on to the frame.

[jawn101]

PS, Jon, what do you mean about swapping "the rod"? The master piston rod isn't going anywhere.

You want to dump the adjustable clevis to the left of the steering column and put in the proper link. That is the "rod" you meant?

This one?
http://store.delorean.com/p-7539-link.aspx

One more test suggestion. Before pulling out the adjustable clevis check to see if the last link pin is tight. The one at the end of the master cyl. piston beneath the dash where it connects to the clutch crank. Pin should spin freely with clutch pedal at rest because there is no preload to the clutch master. If that pin is tight then you may be "riding the clutch" all the time due to the clevis situation no matter where your left foot is.

Thanks for all the feedback Rich. I have been working some long days (only 14 yesterday and that seemed light) so haven't had time to tackle this yet. My pedal was engaging about halfway through the travel. The pedal itself is positioned evenly with the brake and throttle.

The link isn't the part that's adjustable in the configuration I have, the end of the actual piston rod is threaded with a turnbuckle on it, which in turn links to the stock pedal and link configuration. So the piston rod will need to be replaced with the OEM style one, which I do have. Pic:

https://www.specialtauto.com/delorean-parts/images/clutch-master-cylinder-rebu.jpg

Dennis, all - I will definitely try to check out the preload of the cylinder tonight and report back. That's at least a quick thing I can do no matter how tired I am :)

And Dave - thanks for the input on the oil/hydraulic contamination. I know my old main seal was leaking a heck of a lot worse than the new one and it never messed up the clutch. Was just postulating.

[jawn101]

Alright, so here's what I found. When I gently press the pedal (by hand to get a better feel) there is no play - it just starts pressing the piston. I removed the pin holding the MC rod to the pedal and while it wasn't like it suddenly shot back an inch, it's pretty plain that it had to be depressed a bit in order to line up with the pedal.

I removed the turnbuckle and nut from the end of the adjustable rod and pulled off the rubber dust cap. Behind that is a snap ring, holding the washer (captive on the OEM style rod in the attached picture) in to the cylinder.

Is it safe to remove that snap ring and replace the whole rod assembly? Or will doing so cause the MC to fly apart in my footwell and cover everything in clutch fluid in the process? I have no idea what's inside the MC.

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=18673&d=1367361425

[Ron]

Looks similar to this:

http://www.97330.com/Milling_Gaskets_Obsolete/Girling_1.jpg

A little spring pressure and lots of fluid...

[jawn101]

Looks similar to this:

http://www.97330.com/Milling_Gaskets_Obsolete/Girling_1.jpg

A little spring pressure and lots of fluid...

Ah. So I won't be taking that rod out just yet, then. Thanks Ron :) I will put it back together for the moment and just not drive it until I have a chance to remove the master and do the job properly. Is there anything to look out for when putting that washer back in? Looks like it's an integral seal somehow, what do I do to make sure there's no leaks?

[DrJeff]

18676

A picture from my recent rebuild. The piston component needed a tap to come out, of course it was out of the car and didn't have any fluid behind it.

[Ron]

Ah. So I won't be taking that rod out just yet, then. Thanks Ron :) I will put it back together for the moment and just not drive it until I have a chance to remove the master and do the job properly. Is there anything to look out for when putting that washer back in? Looks like it's an integral seal somehow, what do I do to make sure there's no leaks?First, I have not tried it, but, if you can get to it easy enough, I'd guess you could get away with simply swapping it out, being careful not to let the piston/seal come out... (Have a good absorbent towel handy just in case ;-)

[DMCMW Dave]

Can you adjust the rod to be shorter?

[jawn101]

Can you adjust the rod to be shorter?

Unfortunately no, it was at maximum...shortness? Minimum length. Whatever :)

[Ron]

Thread it a little further and use a jamb nut??

EDIT: Wait a minute...is the pic your old one? You still have it but it's too long also???

[jawn101]

Well here's a thought... it had a nut on behind the linkage part, taking up quite a few threads. The linkage itself is threaded. What if I put that all the way on first, then put the nut inside it to stop the assembly loosening? That would give me a nut's thickness of extra thread and thus play in the rod?

Edit: scratch that, there's no way a nut would fit inside the U bracket.

[dmc3130]

Well here's a thought... it had a nut on behind the linkage part, taking up quite a few threads. The linkage itself is threaded. What if I put that all the way on first, then put the nut inside it to stop the assembly loosening? That would give me a nut's thickness of extra thread and thus play in the rod?

Edit: scratch that, there's no way a nut would fit inside the U bracket.

Hey John,

That's what I was tinking of doing. May be put some locktight on the threads so it wont back off.....That might give us the freeplay we need

Stephen

BTW, my clutch is the original clutch with about 20,000 on it. Newer slave and brand new master. Also stainless line. I did have freeplay prior to this drive and it was engaging about 1/4 of the way up on the return of the clutch pedel.

[jawn101]

Stellar success just now.

I removed the nut from the rod shaft completely and threaded the bracket all the way down. Then I clipped it to the pedal and noticed that the bump-stop screw on the pedal box was also pushed down a bit. I backed that out until the pedal stopped moving and voila. I have a little bit of wiggle in the pedal before I feel any hydraulic engagement now.

Went for a test drive just now and there are two marked improvements:
- Clutch pedal feel is much improved. Before it was pretty stiff and difficult to push, I assume because it was already preloaded a bit. Now it feels "snappy" and much easier to push.
- Slipping seems to be completely gone. Granted I only ever noticed it on that much more difficult drive, but I did a few aggressive downshifts and accelerated in low gear and things seem great. Maybe even a little peppier than before, but that could just be weather or a total placebo.

When I take the motor out next I will put the OEM rod back into the master since the clutch system will be open anyway, and I know without the jam nut behind the bracket the rod could re-lengthen over time. And I will inspect the clutch components at that time, of course, and make the call on whether or not to replace any of them.

Amazing that something so stupid could cause such big problems. Yet another product on the "don't get from John" list.

[Ron]

Stellar success just now.

I removed the nut from the rod shaft completely and threaded the bracket all the way down.

LMAO! ...Since you didn't answer me, I bet you missed my post because they were minutes apart and yours went on the next page??

[jawn101]

LMAO! ...Since you didn't answer me, I bet you missed my post because they were minutes apart and yours went on the next page??

LOL, I see it now :)

The OEM rod is a new one that's never been installed, I doubt very much it's too long. Just been sitting in my parts bin. But turning that turnbuckle thing (I've called it about 20 different things over the course of this thread as I have no idea what the right name is) all the way down without the jam nut on it, combined with loosening the pedal stop screw seems to have made a big change in the clutches' character.

[Ron]

What kind does Stephen have?

[jawn101]

What kind does Stephen have?

Same thing, the Hervey style turnbuckle-y one.

[Rich]

This car does not need the adjustble master linkage.

If used it is very easy to set it wrong. If set too long in an effort to raise the pedal engagement off the floor, the clutch will slip. If it is tight, the clutch will slip especially when hot. There should be the slightest amount of free play in the linkage so that you are sure the master cylinder piston is all the way out with your foot off the pedal.

+1

For future reference in the community on this problem and also Steve's, which seem to be caused by an adjustable link or incorrectly-specified master cylinder rod, some of us were probably assuming - at least I was - that the "turnbuckle" mentioned in the problem cars was the short-lived workaround that some of us got from DMC dealers back in the day as fix for what was really a clutch line problem. That "DMC" adjustable link was retrofitted between the pedal and the crank, over on the left side of the steering column, not directly to the master cylinder.

The OEM link on that side is what needs to be there - along with the requisite braided stainless clutch line. No turnbuckles anywhere. If one must use an adjustable link then make sure it stays "adjusted". Dave S's warning here is a sound one.

Jon, here's hoping your and Steve's clutches did not suffer too badly in the episode. Thanks for sharing the updates and the recent good news about the learning process.

[jawn101]

I hope no real damage was done as well. Watch this space for updates on that matter once I get the clutch out again.

[dmc3130]

Stellar success just now.

I removed the nut from the rod shaft completely and threaded the bracket all the way down. Then I clipped it to the pedal and noticed that the bump-stop screw on the pedal box was also pushed down a bit. I backed that out until the pedal stopped moving and voila. I have a little bit of wiggle in the pedal before I feel any hydraulic engagement now.

Went for a test drive just now and there are two marked improvements:
- Clutch pedal feel is much improved. Before it was pretty stiff and difficult to push, I assume because it was already preloaded a bit. Now it feels "snappy" and much easier to push.
- Slipping seems to be completely gone. Granted I only ever noticed it on that much more difficult drive, but I did a few aggressive downshifts and accelerated in low gear and things seem great. Maybe even a little peppier than before, but that could just be weather or a total placebo.

When I take the motor out next I will put the OEM rod back into the master since the clutch system will be open anyway, and I know without the jam nut behind the bracket the rod could re-lengthen over time. And I will inspect the clutch components at that time, of course, and make the call on whether or not to replace any of them.

Amazing that something so stupid could cause such big problems. Yet another product on the "don't get from John" list.



Sweet, do you think putting some locktight on the threads would help it from backing off? Since there is no jam nut, there needs to be something to keep it from backing out again. I'm usualy very intune with what I drive (decause of what I do everyday) and this is the first time I've noticed any slipping. It was at the state park stop when I first noticed it. The pedel was all of a sudden very stiff at the top of the return (still had pressure on it) BTW after we did the adjustments it did not slip again the whole drive back. That was sitting in traffic and all. I did check it last night after reading all of this and I do have some free play. But I think I'll do what you did and remove the jam nut.

Stephen

[TTait]

My clutch has maybe 30k miles on it, and just started slipping. It may just be time (hope not) - but I'm glad I found this thread. I installed a hervey master, slave, and ss clutch line when in '05 - no leaks since. I had a new clutch kit installed in '06. I flush it every couple of years. I have not checked the linkage in years - so I will.

I'm confused on a couple things though. How did adjusting the rod and the end stop change how hard it was to push down the clutch pedal? Is it so long that its putting a side load on the rod when you push it or not aligning right?

I'm curious because...

When I had the clutch installed something odd happened. I picked up the car and the clutch felt great - light - snappy - engaged well at just the right spot. I got about a mile and upon perhaps the 20th time I used the clutch I felt a little clunk - and suddenly the pedal got very hard to push. I immediately went back to the shop and was told "that's normal - it happens a lot - its fine - drive it". Which seemed odd. No test drive, no look at anything, didn't sit down to feel the pedal. Nada. This is a knowledgeable and reputable mechanic. I know he knows how to do the job right. I trusted him and have not looked back until now.

So - any thoughts, insights or advice here before I climb under the dash this weekend?

Tom

[jawn101]

My clutch has maybe 30k miles on it, and just started slipping. It may just be time (hope not) - but I'm glad I found this thread. I installed a hervey master, slave, and ss clutch line when in '05 - no leaks since. I had a new clutch kit installed in '06. I flush it every couple of years. I have not checked the linkage in years - so I will.

I'm confused on a couple things though. How did adjusting the rod and the end stop change how hard it was to push down the clutch pedal? Is it so long that its putting a side load on the rod when you push it or not aligning right?

I'm curious because...

When I had the clutch installed something odd happened. I picked up the car and the clutch felt great - light - snappy - engaged well at just the right spot. I got about a mile and upon perhaps the 20th time I used the clutch I felt a little clunk - and suddenly the pedal got very hard to push. I immediately went back to the shop and was told "that's normal - it happens a lot - its fine - drive it". Which seemed odd. No test drive, no look at anything, didn't sit down to feel the pedal. Nada. This is a knowledgeable and reputable mechanic. I know he knows how to do the job right. I trusted him and have not looked back until now.

So - any thoughts, insights or advice here before I climb under the dash this weekend?

Tom

That is weird. I wouldn't think a clunk is normal in any system under any circumstances, unless you're playing golf or horseshoes or plinko.

I'm not sure why the pedal effort changed when I adjusted the rod length. Perhaps it's just perceptual based on the starting angle of the pedal (slightly higher now)

What's for absolute certain is that my clutch engagement is a hundred times (subjective, maybe) more positive now. It is much easier to creep in first at a stoplight, easier to get moving on an uphill, and far quicker to engage and disengage when shifting overall.

I ended up removing the jam nut entirely and threading the rod as far as it would go into the clevis. I purchased a thinner jam nut but it still seems like it would cause premature engagement of the clutch so I have not yet put it on.

It's a very quick job to just pull out the cotter pin and link pin, remove the clevis and jam nut then put the whole thing back, sans nut. You won't even get dirty! Try it and please report back. I'm curious if you see the same thing I did.

Although if you've been slipping the clutch slightly for 30k miles you may be in a little more overall trouble than I seem to be. I'll be inspecting my clutch parts in just a couple more weeks and will report on what I find here then.

[TTait]

Alright, you sold me on it.

I just did the adjustment as suggested. First of all, not cotter pin installed. Doh! No idea how long that has been missing.

When I turned the clevice all the way down the shaft, the threaded rod was too long to allow the pin to go through, so I backed it out till it would just go through. First time I pushed the pedal - I again got a clunk, telling me that the rod was interfering with the link bar - and it was still very stiff. I also noticed that the pedal did not come all the way back up to its normal rest position, so I pulled the pin again and turned out the clevice until everything lined up with not tension, and put the pin in again. Still the pedal is very stiff.

I could not go for a drive as I'd wake the kids opening the garage door and firing up the stage 1 exhaust - so no test drive yet.

In the meantime - I did not adjust the end stop. Can you elaborate a bit more on the where and how of doing that part?

T

[jawn101]

So there are just 3 small screws that come down from above the pedals (one for each pedal). They are what the pedal bumps into when it returns to its rest position. Adjust the clutch one so the pedal goes as high as possible at rest, and you can dial it down from there.

[TTait]

Will do this weekend - thank you!

[TTait]

That screw (bolt) was already all the way out - no more adjustment. Looks like I'm going to need a new clutch...

Can anyone explain why on some cars the clutch is very stiff, and on others its soft? Is it the hydraulics, or the return spring in the clutch? If I'm gpoing to poney up the cash to do the clutch again - I'd like for it to be right, and understand better the implications...

Tom

[DMCMW Dave]

That screw (bolt) was already all the way out - no more adjustment. Looks like I'm going to need a new clutch...

Can anyone explain why on some cars the clutch is very stiff, and on others its soft? Is it the hydraulics, or the return spring in the clutch? If I'm gpoing to poney up the cash to do the clutch again - I'd like for it to be right, and understand better the implications...

Tom

When was the clutch changed the last time? The manufacturer made a huge design change about 8 years ago, and the later design is much easier to disengage.

Also as they get older the pivot points in the pressure plate get rusty and don't move as easily. The pivot for the throwout bearing loses its grease and adds friction. Not much in either case but it adds up.

[TTait]

I'd have to go through the records, but about 7 years ago, could have been an older unit sitting on the shelf for a while I guess.

When it was first changed it was soft as butter, but within a mile something changed and it immediately got stiff - I went back and asked and was told its supposed to be stiff, not to worry about it - it was not a problem. I did get 30k miles - so it wasn't a disasterous problem if there was one 0 but I'd prefer it be soft...

What is typical labor - 4-5 hours?

[vwdmc16]

...The manufacturer made a huge design change about 8 years ago, and the later design is much easier to disengage...



Hmmm, I may decided to renew my clutch this season too then, My clutch has never failed on me ( I went on the same roads as Jon on our trip where his slipped) but it most definitely does not grip as hard as it did 4 years ago but it is a DMCH clutch of 2002 vintage with 30k miles or so on it. Might be worth replacing while Im in there.....

[vwdmc16]

What is typical labor - 4-5 hours?




To change a clutch? No if you are doing it yourself for the first time it will take atleast that much time to remove and maybe just as much to re install. But I bet a DMC shop with a lift, and two Techs it could be done in less than 5hrs.

[TTait]

I'm going to pony up and have Danny do it, I just wasn't sure how bad is was going to hurt the wallet...

[DMCMW Dave]

I'm going to pony up and have Danny do it, I just wasn't sure how bad is was going to hurt the wallet...

Get a quote first. It's more than the numbers being thrown around here.

Before anyone asks, I don't do labor quotes online/without seeing the car.

[TTait]

Yeah, I can see the perils in that...

Working up my list now.

[David T]

There are a lot of things that are nice to do "while you are in there". They can add up and cost as much as just doing the clutch all by itself. Among them are:
Replacing the master, slave and clutch hose
Opening the transmission and doing the roll pins
Replacing the seal on the motor (if it is leaking)
Replacing any worn rubber bushings in the shift linkage
Replacing any worn/broken engine mounts
Replacing torn C/V boots or just regreasing the joints
Working on a POS that has been generally neglected you usually wind up having to do a lot of ancillary things in addition to the major task. That is why it is difficult to give a flat rate. Sometimes there are modifications done by DPO's that just make things harder along with possible broken or stripped bolts. If you can manage to do the work yourself then you only need to know the price of the parts.
David Teitelbaum