Fixed Mast Fender Mount Antenna - When Did It Happen?

[NightFlyer]

According to DMCH, the first antenna used was the windshield embedded model, follwed by the fixed mast fender mounted antenna, which started "somewhere around VIN 3200." Source: http://support.delorean.com/KB/a49/antennas.aspx

I find this interesting as my car, VIN 1798, has the fixed mast fender mounted antenna.

If DMCH's chronology is correct, then shouldn't I have the windshield embedded antenna? At first, I thought that maybe the fixed mast fender mounted antenna was added by the dealer either before sale or if the original owner had complained about poor radio reception prior to the release of the powered/hidden rear louvre mounted antenna - but then I still would have had the windshield embedded antenna as well, just in a disabled form - right, or would the windshield have been replaced by the dealership?

I was able to confirm that neither of the previous owners had ever had the windshield replaced on its own for a glass issue, so as far as I know, my car has the original windshield it left the factory with unless the dealership changed it under one of the two scenarios desribed above.

So, can anyone give me any insight as to why I have a fixed mast fender mounted antenna and no windshield embedded antenna? What antenna(s) do other pre-3200 owners have on their cars (not altered by yourself or a known alteration by a previous owner)?

[mluder]

Read Nick Sutton's book... Almost none of the cars prior to October 1981 left the factory with the same specification. Nearly every one was different. By that time they were turning out approximately 80 cars a day (probably a little less).

My car is 4456 made in Oct. '81 and it has a rear pontoon auto antenna. That means that if the diverted from window antenna's to front fender ones around 3200, less than 20 days later they switched to rear pontoon. That tells you one of two things. Either the chronologies are highly suspect, or things were so haphazard its entirely possible they were making all three types of antenna configurations at teh same time.

James Espy would probably be the definative source on this... aside from Mr Sutton of course.

Cheers
Steven

[Notifier]

I have, or at least the potential for, all three antennas. I have a windshield antenna, then in my right front fender I have a nice decorative plug for where the antenna would be, and I have a retractable antenna in the left rear pontoon vent. When I got the car a couple of years ago, the windshield antenna was disconnected and the retractable antenna (although the retractability function of it does not work) was being used. I went back to using the windshield antenna because I wasn't going to replace the rear antenna, I mostly listen to satellite radio anyway, and to my surprise it works well for the two or three local radio stations I listen to!

My guess is that my car originally had the windshield antenna. The original owner was probably not happy with it, took it back to the dealer, and they put in the front right fender antenna. When they started putting in the retractable antenna in the left rear pontoon, he liked that better and had them again move the antenna and plug the hole in the front. But again that's just a theory. Unless the factory was still trying to figure it out when my car was being produced, but I have no real evidence to show that.

[thirdmanj]

My May '81 build has the windscreen antenna and the pontoon antenna.

The way I understand it, the fixed mast antenna was a DMC QA "fix" like the screws in the door sills.

[D Knight]

2621 has the windshield antenna. It works pretty good so far. Haven't really had a problem with it

[Iznodmad]

The antenna chronology is one of the hardest features to try and figure out. Some 3 digit VINs have both windshield and front mast. There are also some late 81, mostly November builds that have a front mast version (and/or rear power versions). I can't recall ever seeing and 82/83 with anything but a rear power version.

[David T]

One possibility is that the windscreen in your car had to be replaced and the ones with the antennae inside where NLA so they installed a rear power antennae. The windscreen antennae only works well in cities when you are near strong signals. Being horizontal, they are not very efficient at capturing a vertically polarized radio wave. It was a great idea though to reduce the damage caused by car washes, it just didn't work well. If you are going for Concours originality, unless you can produce undisputible evidence that the car was delivered to a Dealer contrary to it's vin chronology, (saying you tried to determine if any PO's had the windscreen replaced isn't very convincing) you would lose points for not having a windscreen antennae. If you DO have good evidence, it is possible to have the rules changed. BTW, the windscreen could have been changed at a QAC or even at the Dealer before any PO even got the car. You would have no way of finding that out, all of the records are gone.
David Teitelbaum

[Evildeli]

According to my records, 3004 had a windshield antenna. It was later replaced by the PO when it cracked and he had the rear antenna added. I've seen some Vins before and after mine with the front fender antenna.

[Dangermouse]

FWIW, the concours manual requires windshield antennas up to and including 02710

[Rich W]

According to DMCH, the first antenna used was the windshield embedded model, follwed by the fixed mast fender mounted antenna, which started "somewhere around VIN 3200." Source: http://support.delorean.com/KB/a49/antennas.aspx

I did some research on this topic a number of years ago, including asking Nick Sutton a few questions, as well as asking Jeff Synor some questions,
since Jeff was the DMC Engineer who was tasked with designing the rear antenna "hardware kit" to work with an off-the-shelf power antenna.
I do not have all the details with me at the moment, but the following is the approximate break-down, from what I remember.

The windshield antenna was the "factory installed antenna" from the early 500 series cars through the late 2000 series cars.

The first phase of passenger front fender mount antenna as the "factory installed antenna" was late 2000 series cars through early 4000 series cars
(basically early to mid August 81 through mid to late September 81). The second phase for the passenger front fender mount antenna occurred for
the "last of the 81's", including very late 6000 series cars through VIN..7199. This second phase also included the later Craig radio (with clock).

Note: Many of the late 6000 and early 7000 series cars had the passenger front fender with the antenna hole "plugged" with a black plastic cap
and had the rear power antenna installed, either at the factory or at one of the QAC's.

The second phase use of the passenger front fender antenna was meant to depleat most of the remaining passenger front fenders with holes made in
them, in advance of beginning all 1982 production with the passenger front fender without the antenna hole. Most of the stock was depleated.
Some of the very early 1982 models (very early 10000 series cars) had the later Craig radio, but not the fender antenna (as factory installed).

The passenger front fender antenna was also a "QAC fix" and not all of the QAC's received the same "factory style" antenna to install, hence the
variations seen on many early cars (and reported as "original" equipment, by original owners). Some passenger front fenders with antenna holes
were also used as replacement fenders, sent to dealerships, and some passenger front fender (with holes) even remain as stock at DMCH.

Note: Dealerships also added passenger front fender antennas to improve reception for owners who reported radio reception problems.

Later,
Rich W.

[NightFlyer]

Thanks to everyone for the replies thus far!

First off, I just wanted to say that I'm not really a purist/concours owner philosophically speaking - it's just the current condition of my D (select upgrades will be coming in the near future, although the original appearance of everything expect the engine will be maintained).


Read Nick Sutton's book... Almost none of the cars prior to October 1981 left the factory with the same specification. Nearly every one was different. By that time they were turning out approximately 80 cars a day (probably a little less).

My car is 4456 made in Oct. '81 and it has a rear pontoon auto antenna. That means that if the diverted from window antenna's to front fender ones around 3200, less than 20 days later they switched to rear pontoon. That tells you one of two things. Either the chronologies are highly suspect, or things were so haphazard its entirely possible they were making all three types of antenna configurations at teh same time.

James Espy would probably be the definative source on this... aside from Mr Sutton of course.

Cheers
Steven

Thanks for the reference - I'll definitely be checking out Mr. Sutton's book!


I have, or at least the potential for, all three antennas. I have a windshield antenna, then in my right front fender I have a nice decorative plug for where the antenna would be, and I have a retractable antenna in the left rear pontoon vent. When I got the car a couple of years ago, the windshield antenna was disconnected and the retractable antenna (although the retractability function of it does not work) was being used. I went back to using the windshield antenna because I wasn't going to replace the rear antenna, I mostly listen to satellite radio anyway, and to my surprise it works well for the two or three local radio stations I listen to!

My guess is that my car originally had the windshield antenna. The original owner was probably not happy with it, took it back to the dealer, and they put in the front right fender antenna. When they started putting in the retractable antenna in the left rear pontoon, he liked that better and had them again move the antenna and plug the hole in the front. But again that's just a theory. Unless the factory was still trying to figure it out when my car was being produced, but I have no real evidence to show that.

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm trying to figure out - what was the factory mandated procedure concerning the antenna for dealerships either addressing warranty claims or during a factory change-over?


My May '81 build has the windscreen antenna and the pontoon antenna.

The way I understand it, the fixed mast antenna was a DMC QA "fix" like the screws in the door sills.

Was the QAC involved with antenna changes at all, or was it something done strictly by dealerships?

Concerning the screws in the door sills from the QAC, 1798 has them evenly spaced along a single line.


2621 has the windshield antenna. It works pretty good so far. Haven't really had a problem with it

Are you still running the original Craig headunit?


The antenna chronology is one of the hardest features to try and figure out. Some 3 digit VINs have both windshield and front mast. There are also some late 81, mostly November builds that have a front mast version (and/or rear power versions). I can't recall ever seeing and 82/83 with anything but a rear power version.

Yeah, I've definitely noticed that there's no consistency regarding the story with the antennas - that's why I'm trying to figure it out. From a concours perspective, it seems unfair to me to deduct points for a factory mandated change over done at the hands of either the QAC or dealership.


One possibility is that the windscreen in your car had to be replaced and the ones with the antennae inside where NLA so they installed a rear power antennae. The windscreen antennae only works well in cities when you are near strong signals. Being horizontal, they are not very efficient at capturing a vertically polarized radio wave. It was a great idea though to reduce the damage caused by car washes, it just didn't work well. If you are going for Concours originality, unless you can produce undisputible evidence that the car was delivered to a Dealer contrary to it's vin chronology, (saying you tried to determine if any PO's had the windscreen replaced isn't very convincing) you would lose points for not having a windscreen antennae. If you DO have good evidence, it is possible to have the rules changed. BTW, the windscreen could have been changed at a QAC or even at the Dealer before any PO even got the car. You would have no way of finding that out, all of the records are gone.
David Teitelbaum

I don't have the rear power retractable/hidden pontoon mounted antenna - only the fixed mast fender mounted. And I definitely confirmed with both PO's that neither ever had the windshield replaced, but the original owner did take the car in for all factory mandated recalls/updates. If the windshield was replaced by either the QAC or the dealership due to a factory mandate, then I don't see how it's fair to deduct points in a concours - especially if the records are in deed all gone!


According to my records, 3004 had a windshield antenna. It was later replaced by the PO when it cracked and he had the rear antenna added. I've seen some Vins before and after mine with the front fender antenna.

Do you know when the windshield was replaced and rear antenna added by the PO? Do you know which version of the rear mount you have - external relay or internal relay?


FWIW, the concours manual requires windshield antennas up to and including 02710

Thanks for the info - personally, I don't know if that's very fair considering all the peculiarities regarding the antenna. Then again, most everything about our cars tend to be very peculiar :smile:

[NightFlyer]

Here's something else I never even knew until recently:

"Later in the 1981 model year, some cars were also fitted with a manually retractable antenna also mounted in the right front fender." Source: http://support.delorean.com/KB/a49/antennas.aspx

I don't believe that I've ever actually seen one of these in person. Does anyone's car have one or have any of you ever seen one? Can anyone provide a picture of this particular antenna? Does it retract all the way down to the grommet in the fender? If it does, I may be interested in 'upgrading' to this second design of the fender mounted antenna.

I once read somewhere (I believe it was in an old DeLorean World mag or perhaps an entry on the DML) that JZD didn't like the aesthetic appearance of the fender mounted antennas, which led to the power retractable/hidden pontoon mounted antenna, and that dealers with unsold cars on their lots during this change over were directed to remove the fender mounted antenna, and either plug the hole, close the hole with blended stainless, or replace the entire fender, and install the power retractable/hidden pontoon mounted antenna. Was it only the dealerships that were directed to do this, or was the QAC also involved?

While there are plenty of stories (either confirmed or just myth) about the transition from the fender mounted designs to the power retractable/hidden rear pontoon antenna, it appears that not much is know about the transition from the windshield antenna to the fender mounts concerning factory orders to either the QAC or dealerships during the change over, such as if a fender mount was installed because of a warranty claim regarding poor reception of the windshield embedded, was the windshield required to be replaced during such a procedure and whether or not the QAC was involved in such change overs or just the dealerships.

Does anyone know or have any thoughts on what is the rarest of the five antennas apparently offered:
1) Windshield Embedded
2) Fixed Mast Fender Mounted
3) Manually Retractable Fender Mounted
4) Powered Retractable/Hidden Rear Pontoon w/ External Relay Trigger
5) Powered Retractable/Hidden Rear Pontoon w/ Internal Relay Trigger

I don't know why this topic interests me so much for, but it does :p

[NightFlyer]

I did some research on this topic a number of years ago, including asking Nick Sutton a few questions, as well as asking Jeff Synor some questions,...

Thanks for the info Rich - that's very detailed!

Do you happen to know as to whether or not the windshield was automatically replaced during a fender mounted install by either the dealership or QAC, or if the windshield embedded was merely disconnected during such a procedure?

I'm trying to figure out why I don't have a windshield mounted antenna in addition to the fixed mast fender mounted currently on the car, as neither of the previous owners ever had the windshield replaced for glass issues. Any thoughts on this?

Also, any idea as to what of the five designs (that I've listed above) is the rarest antenna used?

Does anyone know if the manually retractable fender mount is still available for purchase anywhere?

EDIT: It appears to be available from DMCH:
http://store.delorean.com/p-7254-antenna-manual-retract.aspx
http://store.delorean.com/p-7261-antenna-sleeve-for-manual-tele-antenna.aspx

Are these the same antenna, where the first link is the entire assembly and the second just the sleeve, or are these two different antennas?

Thanks!

[Evildeli]

Do you know when the windshield was replaced and rear antenna added by the PO? Do you know which version of the rear mount you have - external relay or internal relay?




It was replaced back in 1995 when the PO bought 3004 off his best friend and handed her off to D1. She had been sitting nearly 10 years at that point. D1 Put the windshield in(no antenna built in), which i had to replace when it cracked prior to ownership. D1 put the antenna in, however about 2 years ago it broke. I still have the remaining parts in my garage and it looks very similar to the one DMCH sells on their site. Although they sell it for over $100 I have a hard time justifying the money on a part I don't use since I upgraded my stereo to Ipod hookups. I never use the FM radio. I replaced my windshield(no antenna built in) back in 2005. I would have opted for the antenna windshield if it were available just go back to the original setup.

With my front fender looking normal, I search the records and even contacted the PO to confirm the antenna was never located on the fender, nor had he replaced the fender. 3004 must have been pulled off the assembly line or something. She does have the interior clock and gas flap. Original radio is long gone.

[dmc6960]

I was one of those owners of the "Late 6000" Craig-Clock-Fender Antenna group. Ditched the antenna shortly after I got the car though and had the hole welded in. Unfortunately I dont tend to remember details of things I dont care about. I didn't care about the fender antenna and wanted it gone, so I'm piecing things together here. I've found two photos from when I still had the antenna, and it appears I had it in a "partially retracted" state. Either it was damaged or thats all it would do, I really dont know. I also have no history about this car prior to my ownership. Here are the poor quality photos from September, 2000...

1898518986

In the newspaper image, my car is the big image at top left.

In addition, Bruce Benson's car, recently up For Sale (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?7056-One-owner-81-DeLorean-For-sale-19-000), has a fully retractable manual fender antenna. I don't recall if he ever told me was was replaced at any point.

[NightFlyer]

It was replaced back in 1995 when the PO bought 3004 off his best friend and handed her off to D1. She had been sitting nearly 10 years at that point. D1 Put the windshield in(no antenna built in), which i had to replace when it cracked prior to ownership. D1 put the antenna in, however about 2 years ago it broke. I still have the remaining parts in my garage and it looks very similar to the one DMCH sells on their site. Although they sell it for over $100 I have a hard time justifying the money on a part I don't use since I upgraded my stereo to Ipod hookups. I never use the FM radio. I replaced my windshield(no antenna built in) back in 2005. I would have opted for the antenna windshield if it were available just go back to the original setup.

With my front fender looking normal, I search the records and even contacted the PO to confirm the antenna was never located on the fender, nor had he replaced the fender. 3004 must have been pulled off the assembly line or something. She does have the interior clock and gas flap. Original radio is long gone.

That's quite an interesting history - thanks for sharing! I was hoping it was done earlier at a dealership prior to the dissolution of the company, as it might have given us some insight as to dealer action regarding antenna changes.

Glad you have a set-up that satisfies you!


I was one of those owners of the "Late 6000" Craig-Clock-Fender Antenna group. Ditched the antenna shortly after I got the car though and had the hole welded in. Unfortunately I dont tend to remember details of things I dont care about. I didn't care about the fender antenna and wanted it gone, so I'm piecing things together here. I've found two photos from when I still had the antenna, and it appears I had it in a "partially retracted" state. Either it was damaged or thats all it would do, I really dont know. I also have no history about this car prior to my ownership. Here are the poor quality photos from September, 2000...

1898518986

In the newspaper image, my car is the big image at top left.

In addition, Bruce Benson's car, recently up For Sale (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?7056-One-owner-81-DeLorean-For-sale-19-000), has a fully retractable manual fender antenna. I don't recall if he ever told me was was replaced at any point.

Jim - Thanks so much for the pics! That's exactly what I was looking for :smile: Do you recall if the antenna was ever retractable all the way down to the grommet in the fender? From the pic on DMCH's website, it would appear so, however I wanted to confirm such before ordering one. I'll give DMCMW a call tomorrow!

[Dangermouse]

Thanks for the info - personally, I don't know if that's very fair considering all the peculiarities regarding the antenna. Then again, most everything about our cars tend to be very peculiar :smile:

Not saying it's fair or otherwise, hence the FWIW (for what it's worth), nor that you are trying to be concourse. Just that this document can be useful in some determinations.

Mine has the screw-off fender antenna. Almost all passenger cars in the UK at that time had the manual retractable type, so I would imaging that they were readily available, whereas the screw-off would have been more rare. I have noticed that the complete opposite is true here in the states.

[dmc6960]

Jim - Thanks so much for the pics! That's exactly what I was looking for :smile: Do you recall if the antenna was ever retractable all the way down to the grommet in the fender? From the pic on DMCH's website, it would appear so, however I wanted to confirm such before ordering one. I'll give DMCMW a call tomorrow!

I'm sure it is probably supposed to. Either mine was broken, or had been replaced with an inferior unit at some point. In the setting where those pictures were taken, if I could have lowered it all the way, I would have.

[NightFlyer]

Not saying it's fair or otherwise, hence the FWIW (for what it's worth), nor that you are trying to be concourse. Just that this document can be useful in some determinations.

Mine has the screw-off fender antenna. Almost all passenger cars in the UK at that time had the manual retractable type, so I would imaging that they were readily available, whereas the screw-off would have been more rare. I have noticed that the complete opposite is true here in the states.

Hey Dangermouse - yeah, I know you weren't making a value judgment, I just interjected my personal opinion/feelings on the matter in my response. And yes, I've found the concours manual very helpful as far as info on the differences between cars goes.

Interesting about the observed differences in the UK - but not entirely unexpected, as manually retractable car antennas seemed to be more popular in European/Asian nations than they ever were here in the States. Another predominantly European preference is center roof mounted antennas, which some of the RHD D's had, at least as far as I understand it. I actually quite like the center roof mounted antennas - I had a 2008 Chrysler 300C Heritage that had one and loved it and wouldn't mind one on the D.


I'm sure it is probably supposed to. Either mine was broken, or had been replaced with an inferior unit at some point. In the setting where those pictures were taken, if I could have lowered it all the way, I would have.

Gotcha! Agree about wanting to lower the fender mounts for shows/display purposes - that's why I'm considering switching over. However, I could also just unscrew my fixed mast with a pair of adjustable pliers and easily re-attach upon leaving a show/display. After all, I already do this every year when putting the car cover on for winter storage.

Then again, for $12 plus shipping, I may just get a manually retractable and decide from there how I want to go.

It would appear that most owners aren't antenna fanatics as I appear to be :wave2:.

I like the idea of the fender mount for reliability, simplicity, and reception, however, don't care for it aesthetically (just as JZD apparently didn't either). That's why a manually retractable is desirable to me, however, if they tend to fudge up (as it would appear from your personal experience), then it may just be better to unscrew/screw the mast that I currently have.

Or maybe I'll go really unique and put a center front roof mounted antenna on like the RHD cars had :rock_on:

[David T]

The QAC's were not very concerned about putting vin correct parts in the right spots. In fact, on many occasions they would take parts off of some cars and use them on others that, according to the vin, had to be shipped out. Because of the limited number of available parts they would use whatever they could get their hands on. The DMA had a speaker a couple of weeks ago who worked in the Bridgewater QAC and he admitted that although it was frowned upon, they regularly went out back and cannibalized cars to get parts so they could ship cars. According to him which car (by vin) going to which dealer was all that mattered, not if all of it's parts were correct according to it's vin. Another interesting point he made. He was asked if the quality of the cars improved as production continued. In his opinion it NEVER was good and never improved. He said EVERY car that went through QAC was a mess and it took a LOT to get them into shape. He did mention that he and the whole crew at the QAC got better and faster at it because they had to. When I told him all of the workers in Dunmurry were very proud of what they were doing he was not impressed! He had a very limited view of the world of DMC but that is what he saw.
David Teitelbaum

[DMCMW Dave]

I heard another spin on this at a recent DeLorean Midwest Connection Club meeting where the guest speaker was in management at Shepherd Chevy (north of Chicago), probably the largest DMC dealer in the midwest at the time. They stayed in the DeLorean business a long time after the company shut down, buying inventories and even cars from other dealers. He mentioned that they did quite well buying cars from other dealers that had been picked over for repair parts, and putting them back together to sell. They actually actively serviced DeLoreans well into the 1990s until few "daily drivers" were left around and it transitioned to being a collector car.

They were selling brand new DeLoreans for $19,995 after the close, and I've had a couple customers who bought cars there in late 1983.

[wrkey]

For what it's worth... my vin is 4805.

I have the auto-activated rear mounted power antenna. I am the second owner of this vehicle and the previous owner did not have the antenna move/modified. There is no plug in the right front.

I'm pretty sure it is auto-activated... where would the 'manual' switch be if it had one? I've only been driving her for the last week or two. As a side note, she only has 13,500 miles on her.

[dmc6960]

The ones in the rear were always auto-powered. The "manual" ones mentioned here have no power motor, and were only installed in the right front fender. It would go up and down using your hand to push or pull it.

[David T]

Unless a PO added a switch, the rear power antennae is activated by a power signal from the radio to a relay behind the driver's seat that runs the antennae up when the radio is turned on (even if you are only using the cassette).
David Teitelbaum

[steve6864]

No one seems to have mentioned the condition or rather the shape of the vent,for lack of a better word,that the rear powered operated antennae shoots up out of.Look at what you have.If you were meant to have only a fender mounted or windshield antennae, then there is no scoop cut out of the small louvers that make up the vent.The scoop is so the antennae top clears as it rises.My vin is 6864 and was intended to be front fender and power operated.Steve.

[David T]

A bulletin was issued explaining how to modify the vane in the grill to allow the mast to rise through the grill. There was a kit available to the dealers to install the rear power antennae on cars that did not come equipped with one.
David Teitelbaum

[Sidaries]

VIN 7075 has a manual retract antenna. When it is fully up, it is so big, that I can detect UFOs in space, so I do not like it. It is always down.

[dvonk]

VIN 7075 has a manual retract antenna. When it is fully up, it is so big, that I can detect UFOs in space...

do they look like this?

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/9319/talesfromspacecovercopy.jpg

(sorry, couldnt help myself... :blush:)

[Sidaries]

Not really. More like this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGAMjVm69u0

:D :D :D