Thoughts on a Student Car?

[Dangermouse]

We have reached the point in life where a minivan is no longer necessary. We have two kids, boy/girl teenager twins, and find that it is very rare that we have more than 4 in the car anymore. The kids are both learning to drive, in theory anyway – neither seems motivated to take their test and I’m OK with postponing the extra stress and insurance. They have both stated how they dislike driving the van as it’s pretty big, which I can understand.

Just sold the van and now plan to buy a car that I would drive in the interim with the intention of passing it on to them in 6 months or so, and then buying a nicer family car. I like this as I will know that the car that I passed to them has been driven by me for a period of months and I will know if it is a lemon or not

Looking at some of the following

05 Volvo S40
06 Ford Focus
06 Mazda 3

Any thoughts/recommendations on others? Budget is around $8k, needs to seat at least 4, no convertibles, big enough that it will keep them safe in an accident, but not so big that it will cause them to have an accident (no trucks or large SUVs)

My first car was a 10 year old piece of 80s junk, so I have set their expectations suitably low.

[OverlandMan]

My first car was a 10 year old piece of 80s junk, so I have set their expectations suitably low.

Ha! I hear that. I was in the same boat with a 13 year old piece of 80's junk that ran when it wanted to.

First cars being nothing fancy or too much to maintain, in your price range, stuff like Nissan Altima, Toyota Camry, & Honda Accord come to mind. I would stay away from the Volvo. I had a 98 S70 years ago and while it was a good car, it had some typical European maintenance and repair issues that I would not recommend for a first vehicle. The other 2 in your list would be fine, although on the smaller end of the spectrum. I'd stay away from the Korean stuff --> terrible resale value. Just my .02.

[Ron]

Nix the Focus! ...They are plagued with head/valve train problems.

[Jimmyvonviggle]

" I'd stay away from the Korean stuff --> terrible resale value."


I would have to disagree about the Korean stuff. I am not sure about resale value. All I know is I had a Hyundai elantra as a second car and was driving in it with my whole family when we got into a serious accident. The car was totalled, and we all walked away with minor bruises. I was pretty impressed that a car for 22k (Canadian) protected us like that.

After that incidence I moved up to a Hyundai Tuscon, which is a small SUV, and I love it, especially the way it handles in the winter.

[Farrar]

My suggestion: an old Volvo station wagon. Reasonably reliable, good visibility, pretty sturdy. Depending on how old it is, insurance will be cheap, too.

[rddmc]

We have reached the point in life where a minivan is no longer necessary. We have two kids, boy/girl teenager twins, and find that it is very rare that we have more than 4 in the car anymore. The kids are both learning to drive, in theory anyway – neither seems motivated to take their test and I’m OK with postponing the extra stress and insurance. They have both stated how they dislike driving the van as it’s pretty big, which I can understand.

Just sold the van and now plan to buy a car that I would drive in the interim with the intention of passing it on to them in 6 months or so, and then buying a nicer family car. I like this as I will know that the car that I passed to them has been driven by me for a period of months and I will know if it is a lemon or not

Looking at some of the following

05 Volvo S40
06 Ford Focus
06 Mazda 3

Any thoughts/recommendations on others? Budget is around $8k, needs to seat at least 4, no convertibles, big enough that it will keep them safe in an accident, but not so big that it will cause them to have an accident (no trucks or large SUVs)

My first car was a 10 year old piece of 80s junk, so I have set their expectations suitably low.

Saturn Aura. The fact that it is an orphan will decrease the cost but parts both new and used will be readily available for years to come. The car lives on as a Buick Regal. Five of our six children had Saturns while in college the cars were dependable.

[OverlandMan]

" I'd stay away from the Korean stuff --> terrible resale value."


I would have to disagree about the Korean stuff. I am not sure about resale value. All I know is I had a Hyundai elantra as a second car and was driving in it with my whole family when we got into a serious accident. The car was totalled, and we all walked away with minor bruises. I was pretty impressed that a car for 22k (Canadian) protected us like that.

After that incidence I moved up to a Hyundai Tuscon, which is a small SUV, and I love it, especially the way it handles in the winter.

As I indicated, the resale value is the factor I indicated that would keep me away from Korean stuff. I'm not knocking them on their safety, performance, cosmetics, etc. If you drive it for 10 years and don't plan on selling it, then maybe that works out great for you.

[eagle-co94]

MINI Coopers are the safest cars in their class and very fuel efficient. My wife's 2004 MINI Cooper S is over 160k miles and still going strong.

[Timebender]

I'd recommend anything VW from 2000 on. Safe, reliable, and hold their value pretty well. My 2000 New Beetle Turbo with 203,000 miles still runs well, and I can get about 2,000 for it when I paid 8500 for it 8 years ago.

[louielouie2000]

The best car I've ever owned was my '08 Subaru. In my 3+ years of ownership, I had absolutely zero problems with it. All I did was put gas in it, change the oil, and rotate the tires. It was the most reliable car I've ever had. It was also decent on fuel, had a very high safety rating, sat 5, and with AWD, had amazing roadhandling. You'd be amazed at how composed the Subaru AWD systems keep cars on the road... it's a real safety feature. Plus, the cars are total snowmobiles if snow is ever a factor. You should be able to get a mid '00s Subaru in the price range you're looking at. I can't say enough good things about those cars.

[Dangermouse]

I appreciate the suggestions guys.

One thought on a older Korean shitbox is that it should already have done most of its depreciating. Mini's are great, I've always wanted one, may add that to the list.

Getting some preliminary numbers in from my insurance agent (and I think her math is screwed up a little). Dropping the van from my policy and adding any of the three cars (plus two young drivers) I listed earlier will supposedly add about $3000 annually to my premium. I would go from $1300 (2 cars 2 drivers) to $4300 (2 cars 4 drivers)!

I think I may need an Plan B :)

[Roman Legion]

I drove a Fiat 500, I really liked the car, you should be able to find one about your budget, I mean, new they are like $13k, so slightly used should be around your budget. I have always like the Honda Insight, amazing MPG and not enough power to get them in trouble. Honda Fit isn't a bad car either, it has an awful launch, but again, great for a new driver and newer. Out of your listed options, the focus isn't bad, I have a friend with one and has over 100k miles and he kind of neglects his auto matinence and that car still runs great. Too bad your budget isn't higher, you could get my Mustang so I can get a Delorean.. :wink:

[OverlandMan]

One thought on a older Korean shitbox is that it should already have done most of its depreciating.

Very true and very well put

[elfking]

Out of the car's you listed I would choose the Mazda 3, I have driven quite a few and some other family members got this car as their first (maybe second) car.. and still running strong.. one has no interest in cars and just uses it to get form point A to point B. The other person a little more involved doing little things.. intake, rims / tires, stereo upgrades... The only big issue I recall them having was one of the motor mounts broke. Which wasn't a big deal just a bunch of unwanted vibrations until fixed. :biggrin:

I think your other options for the Mini and Focus are not so bad either... Stay away from the Volvo!

[Morpheus]

I'll chime in and suggest the Mazda 3 as well. I had a Protege5, which was the 3's predecessor. I put close to 200k miles on that thing and only ever had to replace the clutch and other small things (belts, oil, plugs, wires, etc.). Mazdas are very well made and even find a way to have a sporty feel in just about everything they make.

I have a CX-9 now and it's the tits. :D

[Dangermouse]

OK, this has taken an odd turn. The insurance industry is all screwed up


I am not as concerned about the actual $ as I will be getting other quotes, but it is the increase/decrease that gets me


Do these upgrades look typical to those of you who have insured teens ($ premium per 6 months)

Car 1 + 2010 Dodge Minivan (2 adult drivers) - $671 (full coverage) – this is my current policy and is the base for these discussions
Car 1 + 2005 Volvo S40 (2 adult drivers ) - $725 – an $54 increase for a cheaper, older car?
Car 1 + 2005 Volvo S40 (2 adult drivers + 2 youthful drivers) - $2082 – an $1357 increase just for the two youths? Is this typical (I have a feeling that it is)
Car 1 + 2005 Volvo S40 + 2006 Ford Focus (2 adult drivers + 2 youthful drivers) - $2318 – an $236 increase just for the extra car (just with liability) – I am OK with that
Car 1 + 2005 Volvo S40 + 1996 Toyota Corolla (2 adult drivers + 2 youthful drivers) - $2179 – an $97 increase just for the extra older car (just with liability) – I am OK with that (in the grand scheme, a 2006 car is about the same to insure as a 1996)

Here’s the oddball

Car 1 + 2005 Volvo S40 + two 1996 Toyota Corollas (2 adult drivers + 2 youthful drivers) - $1824 – an $258 decrease for adding two older car (just with liability) ??????

So, insurance wise, it is cheaper for me to have 4 cars on the road simultaneously, than 2 !!! How does that make any sort of sense??


(My D is on a separate Hagerty policy, so doesn’t enter into this discussion)


I think we'll go an look at a few of the suggested cars over the weekend and come up with a game plan. Looks like the car price is the lesser of my worries at the moment. Thanks again for the suggestions.

[Stainless]

Out of the car's you listed I would choose the Mazda 3, I have driven quite a few and some other family members got this car as their first (maybe second) car.. and still running strong.. one has no interest in cars and just uses it to get form point A to point B. The other person a little more involved doing little things.. intake, rims / tires, stereo upgrades... The only big issue I recall them having was one of the motor mounts broke. Which wasn't a big deal just a bunch of unwanted vibrations until fixed. :biggrin:

I second the Mazda 3. I have owned a 2007 Mazda 6 for the last 5 years and it has been very trouble free. Oil changes are all that the car has needed to keep it running smoothly. I would buy another newer Mazda in a heartbeat. The smaller Mazda 3 is nicely sized for a teenager, although it is quite sporty which may invite some aggressive driving. I know I pushed cars to their limit when I was young :)

[Shep]

OK, this has taken an odd turn. The insurance industry is all screwed up Amen to that! :)



$1357 increase just for the two youths? Is this typical (I have a feeling that it is)Absolutely. Younger age means less experience, more dangerous driving behavior, much greater likelihood of an accident. It's pretty standard practice to have the highest premiums for 16- to 18-year-olds, with the premium getting lower as age gets older. Then if you get too old, premiums go up. There's a "sweet spot" in terms of age. Particularly since younger drivers are much more prone to doing things they shouldn't be doing when driving (texting, calling, talking, speeding, being distracted, etc.) than their older counterparts. Trust me, as those kids get older, they'll become less expensive.



$258 decrease for adding two older car (just with liability) ??????

So, insurance wise, it is cheaper for me to have 4 cars on the road simultaneously, than 2 !!! How does that make any sort of sense?? One car per driver tends to be the cheapest route, so it's not surprising that four cars and four drivers is cheaper than two cars with four drivers. When everyone has their own car to drive, most driving time is done with cars each driver is familiar with. When you have fewer cars than drivers, there's doubling up, and there's no guarantee that they'll double up on the same cars each time. You also don't have to worry about those two youthful drivers of yours sharing cars with more experienced drivers and driving premiums up accordingly.

[DMCMW Dave]

So, insurance wise, it is cheaper for me to have 4 cars on the road simultaneously, than 2 !!! How does that make any sort of sense??
.

It can make sense if you "assign" the kids to the cheap cars (pick boring cars with good accident records, i.e. an Accord over a Integra). I recall it being cheaper to have the kids "assigned" to, for example, a 10-year-old Taurus as an exclusive driver (skip the collision/comp - it's a disposable car) than as an additional driver on a relatively new car that you need to cover all the way. Especially if the relatively new car is something sporty.

[Ron]

Another thing that comes into play big time is how many passengers the vehicle is rated at (due to medical...), especially with youthful drivers.
(Put them as primary for the mini van in our state and you could almost buy the other car ;-)

[Dangermouse]

Well that's the ins companies logic. The kids are "primary" drivers on the older/cheaper cars while the parents are primary on the newer ones. But there is no requirement that the kids can only drive the older cars.

They take away any parental control and say that if there is a Ferrari in the household then the kid might drive it, therefore he must be insured for it. If I had a Ferrari, there's not a chance my kid with a still-warm license would get anywhere near it.

So I can have double the number of cars on the roads risking accidents and, more expensively, injury, and the ins company give me a discount! Must be that new math I used to hear about.

And yes Shep, I am well aware that teens are a higher risk than adults. Not only do I have two, but I used to be one myself in all my believed invincibility :)

[Ron]

One car per driver tends to be the cheapest route..
I will not go off on a rant about why I should have to pay the same basic rate for car 3-5 when there are only two of us licensed in the household...
We can't drive but one at a time...:swear1:

:thumbdown::freddy:Insurance companies <=> Lawyers :shark::thumbdown:
:boxface:

[eagle-co94]

You also decrease the mileage on your more expensive cars by adding cheaper to insure cars to the policy and putting miles on them instead.

[Shep]

Well that's the ins companies logic. The kids are "primary" drivers on the older/cheaper cars while the parents are primary on the newer ones. But there is no requirement that the kids can only drive the older cars.If you try the opposite, putting the kids as "primary" drivers on the newer cars and as additional insured for the older cars, does that lower the premium at all? A less reliable driver plus a less reliable vehicle, in some insurance company's rules, will be more expensive than putting the more reliable driver with the less reliable vehicle and vice versa. Not all insurance companies do this however, so I'm curious how it would affect the rates in your scenario. I'd honestly have to look into it to see how we handle it, I don't know offhand, but I do know it varies per company.


I will not go off on a rant about why I should have to pay the same basic rate for car 3-5 when there are only two of us licensed in the household...
We can't drive but one at a time...:swear1:You're insuring more vehicles. Insurance is done on a per-policy and per-vehicle basis. It's inherently going to cost more. It's like insuring five different homes -- you're only in one at a time, but the others are still liabilities since there's no telling when you'll be any of them at any given time. Yes you can only drive one car per person, but at any given time you can drive any of the other cars in your possession. They all need insurance, and if you only had to pay for the number of drivers, you can pick up a complete junker and insure it 100% for free, even though it's practically guaranteed to get into an accident.

[Ron]

All I am going to say is it did not used to be that way years ago, and, unlike a home, the risk raises exponentially when the vehicle is in use...

[Dangermouse]

You're insuring more vehicles. Insurance is done on a per-policy and per-vehicle basis. It's inherently going to cost more.

Unless you are insuring two additional high risk teens, as well as the extra cars, in which case it will cost less ;) Ron, you need to invent some fictitious children.


I will certainly try your earlier suggestion about making the kids primary on the newer cars. Logic would dictate that it would cost more, so it probably won't.

[Shep]

All I am going to say is it did not used to be that way years ago, and, unlike a home, the risk raises exponentially when the vehicle is in use...The times they are a-changin' :)

[Ron]

Ron, you need to invent some fictitious children. Well, I had three on my policy until recently. Hmmmm...I seem to remember one called Notme....


The times they are a-changin' :)Freakin' lawyers I tell ya!

[Ryan]

We have reached the point in life where a minivan is no longer necessary.

Just a quick aside: So it can happen... awesome. 8)

[Dangermouse]

Yes Ryan, in only 15 short years ;)

I was hoping you of all people were paying attention to this thread.

Start saving NOW!

[Ryan]

Start saving NOW!

Meh, that's years away. I'll start saving later :tongue: