Found: Eagle Premier

[Josh]

So as some of you may know I am doing a 3.0 swap. I found an engine that had been sitting in a guys garage for a few years. Tested the compression and it seems good so I started tearing it down. This is a distributor style engine. I am planning on going to distributorless by making a block off plate for the timing cover and doing a trigger wheel setup for MS.

However today I came across a whole 1991 Eagle Premier. Runs and drives nice and I can pick it up for pretty cheap if I go through with the deal. Speedometer is broken, so mileage is unknown. Also its the full car so any small odds and ends I am missing can easily be obtained.

So my question is, should I go with the known runner or continue with the engine I have already? Or if someone wants it in Canada speak now and I can harvest the motor for you.

Thanks!

[Chris Burns]

I would buy it and sell what you don't use.

[Michael]

Just out of curiosity, why is the 3.0 engine swap a good thing? I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything, just wondering why a Eagle Premier engine is so much better than the stock 2.8? Are the gains worth the work involved? I know the blocks are almost identical, and there is a small HP gain, and the EFI benefit, but it just seems to me like a lot of work for a little reward.

[vwdmc16]

Like you said, The EFi and minor power upgrades are there, those are some of the biggest advantages, also these are even firing engines so they do run a bit smoother than a 2.8 odd ever could. Keep in mind these engine are nearly 10 years newer so block rot and general wear is mostly much less of an issue. They can also be picked up for a song unlike an actual Dmc engine although some of the dmc only bits are needed to make it work in a D. From the larger displacement and head design these engines are much easier to create bigger HP than the older and more restricted 2.8 odds, something hot rodders would prefer. finally comparing this near drop in solution to an intensely involved engine swap, yes its worth the trouble

[NightFlyer]

With custom mounts, you can just swap over everything and use the 3.0L EFI computer, although you lose the 'cool' finned oil pan of the 2.8L block.

[Nicholas R]

With custom mounts, you can just swap over everything and use the 3.0L EFI computer, although you lose the 'cool' finned oil pan of the 2.8L block.

That would be my solution. I'd rather make custom mounts than loose the crank position sensor.

[dmc6960]

That would be my solution. I'd rather make custom mounts than loose the crank position sensor.

The lower crankcase isn't where the crank position sensor is. Its on the Eagle's transmission bellhousing reading a trigger wheel on the flexplate.

If I ever did a 3.0 build I would make it as externally similar as possible to the 2.8. 2.8 crankcase and oil pan. 2.8 valve covers and timing cover. 2.8 water pump and y-pipe (for those two dont know the 3.0's waterpump rear housing and y-pipe are a mirror image to the 2.8). 2.8 AC compressor, alternator, and V-belts. Of course though, I would keep the vastly superior intake manifold.

But thats just me.

[Josh]

As mentioned, the lower crankcase isnt the issue. You lose an oil level sensor... not a big deal. It is the loss of the crankshaft position sensor. Once I get the engine swapped over and wired up I will be posting a how to. Just to help clear up the misinformation.

The efi on the 3.0 engine is leagues ahead of the mechanical fuel injection of the 2.8. The 3.0s can also hold alot more boost on stock internals than a 2.8. And other little things like a serpentine belt, modern sensors, etc.

The big one for me... alot easier to source than a 2.8. Wayyy cheaper as well. I hate mechanical fuel injection.

[Kenny_Z]

So my question is, should I go with the known runner or continue with the engine I have already?


Unless you're planning to rebuild the motor found in the garage, the runner might be a better choice. If I was just going to do a swap and I'd much rather go with something that runs nice and looks to be in good condition. However, if I wanted to do a tear down and rebuild I'd use the motor from the garage and harvest anything extra from the runner.

[Alan]

Unless you're planning to rebuild the motor found in the garage, the runner might be a better choice. If I was just going to do a swap and I'd much rather go with something that runs nice and looks to be in good condition. However, if I wanted to do a tear down and rebuild I'd use the motor from the garage and harvest anything extra from the runner.

Serious question. I'm handy but engine swaps and rebuilds are beyond me so I really don't know...

Even for a full rebuild, wouldn't starting with the known runner be "safer?" Couldn't the non-runner have a "fatal flaw" that wouldn't be discovered until a way into the build? Even if everything can be fixed, couldn't a serious flaw make that build a lot more difficult or expensive? Or on the non-runner is it really likely that everything that needs to be done would be as part of the normal process?

Thanks for some education.

[Kenny_Z]

If you do find a fatal flaw in the non-runner then you still have a complete running engine as a backup. However, that same flaw could be in the runner too. If the runner stays running but you have issues with your rebuild you can always play "swap the part" to see if you have a bad part. If you've already purchased the non-runner and it's out of the car you might as well start the rebuild on it. Pulling an engine is the majority of the hard labor.

I've only rebuilt cast iron blocks so I don't know how much translates over to the PRVs but there's almost nothing that can be written off as a loss. In some cases, when pistons give way and blow holes through cylinders they can be sleeved for less than it costs to get a replacement block. It also depends on what you plan to do during the rebuild. Are you going to reuse or replace the piston, rods, and/or crank? A refresh is just the reuse of all those parts with new rings, gaskets, and bearings. A rebuild is a replacement of almost everything except the crank (unless damaged).

Say the non-runner has one or more pistons that are cracked or an overly worn crank. That's when you take apart the runner to see which block you want to use. The runner could have the exact same issue and still run fine. The compression test should be off with a cracked piston but I'm going with generic engine scenarios.

Plus, you say you finish your rebuild and everything is great. You have this runner off to the side now you can sell.

[vwdmc16]

This brings up a good question, Should I get that 40k mile engine out of the EP i just found here in California? just clean it externally and its ready to go instead of the $1k+ i need to throw at the 160k mile one I grabbed years ago and has been sitting on my garage floor. There were no signs that the 40k car was crashed, just moss and mold on it suggest it sat for years and years, but why?

Its possible the owner lost interest in possibly one of the most boring cars of the 80's and simply stopped driving it to avoid boredom/humiliation. However its more likely they didnt change the oil enough or something else broke that would cost too much to repair. Without going to deep into it I could check under the valve cover for oil starvation damage. my 160k 3.0 has a worn down cam lobe on cyl # 5 so I bet that put it in the grave. well I want bigger cams anyhow... I dont know, I think I stick with the one I already got.

[Nicholas R]

I didn't realize the crank position sensor was in the bell housing, I thought it was in the lower block; my bad.

[vwdmc16]

Any reason it couldnt be moved to the front pulley? weld on a sensor ring with how ever many holes the flex plate had, alot but then you could use the stock ecu.

What is the stock ECU anyways? is it any good?

[Josh]

Any reason it couldnt be moved to the front pulley? weld on a sensor ring with how ever many holes the flex plate had, alot but then you could use the stock ecu.

What is the stock ECU anyways? is it any good?

Protodelorean did this and I plan on doing it as well (see pictures). I suppose the stock setup would work as well with the trigger on the crank pulley but it has alot of holes in it, the resolution would be much smaller (gap between holes would be smaller with smaller diameter which is harder for the CPS to pick up on). They way I look at it, if you are going to swap in the 3.0 might as well used a aftermarket computer to get the full gains out of the engine and allow for flexibility if you ever decide to turbo.

Images taken from projectdelorean.com, they are not mine. Keep an eye out on my build thread in the distant future for my setup. I will be using a Ford VR CPS and a 36-1 tooth trigger wheel.

[Kenny_Z]

I dont know, I think I stick with the one I already got.

If you were planning the rebuild anyway I'd stick with what you have. Even if you got the other one I'd say at least a refresh is in order.

[BABIS]

I didn't realize the crank position sensor was in the bell housing, I thought it was in the lower block; my bad.
the later generation of PRVs ( efi ones ) had the crank position sensor in the UN1 bell housing - so it's a little bit different than the D one - and they had the trigger wheel integrated to the flywheel..
I have this set up on my car. a frind of mine with a 24 valves PRV reused the original bell using modifying it in order to mount the sensor..

for the ones interested to the pulley trigger wheel I found some interesting pictures from the Alpine forum http://www.renaultalpineownersclub.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3425&sid=b7518d700de7e2a3e7d6d47a6637c270

[Josh]

That will be very similar to my setup. Just cant decide If I will bolt or weld on the trigger wheel.

[DMCVegas]

Just out of curiosity, why is the 3.0 engine swap a good thing? I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything, just wondering why a Eagle Premier engine is so much better than the stock 2.8? Are the gains worth the work involved? I know the blocks are almost identical, and there is a small HP gain, and the EFI benefit, but it just seems to me like a lot of work for a little reward.

As far as engine swaps go, the 3.0L PRV is on the beginner level of things and requires the least amount of fabrication. Here are the advantages of this swap:

Cheap engine. You can usually find one for a couple hundred, to a few hundred bucks in long block form.
The PRV is a Modular Engine: Bell Housing pattern is the exact same, and the Lower Crank Case (sandwich plate) and Oil Pan are swappable. Meaning that the stock motor mounts are reused and zero fabrication is nessisarry to install the block.
Higher Compression.
Because this engine was not meant for K-Jetronic, there are no bungs for the CIS injectors on the Cylinder Heads. Because of this the intake ports are much larger and flow more air.
Split Journals resulting in an Even-Fire engine.
20HP gain in stock form over the 2.8.
For more advanced modifications such as turbo charging, aside from the compression, this engine is more desirable.
Serpentine Belt is possible.



Disadvantages:

EFI heads are NOT designed for K-Jetronic Manifold, meaning you will need to use another delivery method.
For EFI you will need to fabricate a crank trigger system and install your own Fuel Management system like Mega Squirt to control EFI and Ignition.
If you choose carburetion, you'll need to source the appropriate intake manifold, and still deal with Ignition.
It is possible to install a distributor on the left cam instead of the right. But you're going to need to drill and install mounts in the left cylinder head, grind off the ribs in the valve covers, and then swap the 2.8 cams and crank over and create an odd-fire 3.0 to maintain the higher flowing heads. Granted though in this case you'd probably just be better off swapping parts onto the 2.8 block...

[Texas Twister]

I picked up a 92 Premier motor with the coil pack and have since torn it down to the bare block. I'm going to make this one pretty since it will have to last a long time and I want to like looking at it. The 3.0 Premier engine is a very extensive redesign of the B28 engine in the D. The even fire engine smooths things out a lot plus there is improved lubrication to the top end. While the intake manifold and throttle body is nicer, I will be looking for one from a B280f motor from a 88 to 92 Volvo 760 or 780 which has better flow. The valve train has hydraulics so no valve adjustments. This may hurt performance a bit so I'm going with the mechanical adjustment.

If you are going to rebuild one, getting some of the parts is still a pain. Be sure you have what you need before you rip it open like I did. I'm still scrounging for a few bits. Main crank bearings are the same, but rod bearings are not. Some of the shims are still available from Volvo for the B280F motor. If you buy the running car, I suggest you do a 6 hour cooling system flush. I blasted an amazing amount of crud out of mine at the car wash before I removed the cylinder sleeves. If you use the stored motor you may want to check this. I made some retainers to hold the sleeves in place since I was not sure I would pull them and break the seal at the base.

I have to order some forged pistons before I get it balanced. I saw that Josh may have some for a 3.0. I have to call him and ask. If not then I buy from J&E. I'm thinking supercharged? My target goal will be 300hp. There is a guy on the Turbobricks forum that is getting 500hp but I don't want to blow up the tranny which will also get some upgrades.

After doing all the reading I might scrounge the B280F block and use the Premier heads and cylinders. This block is supposedly better than the Premier one. Alas, time and money limit all things. Look at the PRV Wiki entry for a lot of good info.

Good luck,

Ian