View Full Version : General Car let me down for the first time in years
Sitting here waiting for tow truck at 11:30pm. Car starts, I turn on the headlights and it dies. Now it won't start...turning over but not firing :-(
sdg3205
07-25-2013, 01:42 AM
Sounds like your car thought your relationship was a bit stale and is trying to spice things up.
LOL...I guess so. Home safe and sound, going to bed. I must admit those two little two hooks work like a damn.
If any of you have a suggestion or guess as to what it might be. Or something I should check, please say so. It doesn't get dark until after 11:00, and I'm old. So I'm not usually up that late:) I can't remember the last time I turned the headlights on. I'm guessing I blew a fuse, relay??
Bitsyncmaster
07-25-2013, 06:29 AM
Head lights should not have affected the engine unless the alternator was not working. So since the headlight +12 is not a common engine problem my guess would be the ground at the back of the relay compartment. Since your engine is cranking it sounds like the battery is good. Hope it's a repeatable failure so you can find the problem.
David T
07-25-2013, 08:57 AM
Head lights should not have affected the engine unless the alternator was not working. So since the headlight +12 is not a common engine problem my guess would be the ground at the back of the relay compartment. Since your engine is cranking it sounds like the battery is good. Hope it's a repeatable failure so you can find the problem.
Sounds like a dead alternator and a low battery. Without enough voltage the ignition ECU will not function. Fix the alternator and charge up the battery.
David Teitelbaum
If the engine would turn over right after it died, it wasn't the battery or alternator. It takes WAY more power to crank than it does to run the entire car with everything on...
Pull your coil wire and see if it sparks. If not, first check the connections at the resistor block, then fuses 1, 7, others.
Turning on the lights could be coincidental, probably not, but see if you have pressure at the air plate if you have spark.
Figuring out if it is a fuel or fire (spark) problem is the first step.
Thanks guys. The alternator is new last fall, battery at the same time. I turned the car over a LOT last night. Even this morning it turns over fine.
I agree with Ron that it could be coincidental that it happened when I turned the headlights on...but unlikely. I'm thinking I blew a fuse or something. Is it possible that the RPM relay could have been...altered? :)
Bitsyncmaster
07-25-2013, 12:31 PM
Thanks guys. The alternator is new last fall, battery at the same time. I turned the car over a LOT last night. Even this morning it turns over fine.
I agree with Ron that it could be coincidental that it happened when I turned the headlights on...but unlikely. I'm thinking I blew a fuse or something. Is it possible that the RPM relay could have been...altered? :)
The OEM RPM relays do get sudden failures and then could work the next day. That is due to broken solder joints that tend to be intermittent. Try to start it with the RPM relay jumper. Every owner should carry a jumper or two to get home when a relay or switch fails. My jumper has two wires and three pins so it can power both the pump and lambda system replacing the RPM relay.
-Jumped the RPM relay, nothing.
-The car acts as it should, when I turn it on the fuel pump buzzes for a second or so then shuts off.
-I have spark, checked at the coil
-fuses and relays "seem" OK
-Connections at the resistor are good
-Checked the Intertia switch, appears to be OK
I've been driving the car every day, to and from work. In the evenings, hot/cold/wet weather. In traffic, on the highway...the car has been perfect, absolutely no issues. Last night I get in the car, it starts right up. As soon as I push the headlight switch...it quits. Now it won't run. Turns over like crazy but will not fire.
:(
Confirm it still will not start, check for spark at a couple of easy plug wires, and that you have pressure at the air plate...
Ron, I thought pressure at the air plate can only be checked if the car is warm, recently running. How do I check the pressure...just put my hand over it as someone cranks?
No. If you bump the key a couple of times or try to crank it you should hear the pump run and it will pressure up ( or you can jump the RPM relay (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?1155-How-To-Jump-the-RPM-Relay&p=12884&viewfull=1#post12884) to be sure). Then gently feel for resistance at the plate. If it is very easy or bounces when you tap it, you don't have the pressure needed. Don't press and hold or it will flood the engine if there is pressure (a hot start trick rarely mentioned btw). If it was recently running there should be some resistance for ~2 hours anyway.
Roman Legion
07-25-2013, 11:47 PM
At least the tow truck guy didn't make a reference to headbutt your steering wheel.
I have spark at the plugs and based on Rons description I'm pretty sure the air plate is functioning correctly. My 5 year daughter was bumping the ignition.
If I had a bad relay or even fuse. Which ones would allow the car to turn over fine but not start? I'm convinced I tripped something when I turned the headlights on.
RPM
Lambda
Cold Start
If it turns over on its own and has good spark at the plugs, there is nothing strictly electrical I can think of that would prevent it from starting, when the engine was dead cold. That be the case, I would suspect fowled plugs, or it's flooded or starving for fuel. If you don't smell fuel while cranking shoot some ether behind the plate. BUT, this don't match the other symptoms very well...
Weird problem for sure! Hang in there.
Try turning on the lights and seeing if you have spark at the plugs, for giggles.
Did you happen to check how long the plate had pressure before it would bounce (just curious)?
I was going to ask if it was ok to spray some ether. No I didn't see how long the plate held pressure, how long should it? I probably put close to a 1000 miles on it this month, I can't see the car all of sudden getting fowled plugs, or a fuel issue, be it starving or flooding.
The car didn't slowly start running crappy and then die. It was like someone flicked a switch and the car quit.
It has to be something simple......The headlights haven't been turned on since last fall and have always worked perfectly. The headlight relay "fix" was done, maybe an issue there?? is it possible that when I turned on the headlights it pulled power from somewhere and blew something?
Is it possible the fuel pump could buzz yet not push fuel?
Spraying ether will be be the tell all.
A shot of ether's a good trouble-shooting ploy. Follow the directions.
There is no smell of leaking fuel, right?
No smell of fuel.....I've been looking for leaks/drips, nothing.
Bitsyncmaster
07-26-2013, 07:09 PM
So the car will not start now but the starter is turning the engine over and normal speed? Like Ron said it may just be coincidence that the headlights coming on and the engine dying but if it was that sudden maybe that caused some voltage spike. My first guess is the ignition ECU so testing the spark at a plug should verify that ECU.
Do any other electrical problems show up even with the engine not running?
Yes the turns over fine (normal speed). Nothing out of the ordinary, the fuel pump will buzz for a second or so. All lights work, stereo, wipers....everything seems fine.
I've never turned the car over for an extended period of time before...because it always fires right up. While cranking it seems to "want" to start, if that makes any sense. Like it is trying to fire?? You can feel/hear the compression, but it won't start.
I don't suppose there is a way to bypass the ECU?
Can't say I've ever tested the spark at a plug, how do I do that?
Bitsyncmaster
07-26-2013, 08:04 PM
Pull a plug wire, put a plug on the end, hold metal (hex part where you use a socket) to the engine block. Have someone crank the enging over while you look at the plug firing.
Can't say I've ever tested the spark at a plug, how do I do that?
Steps 1 and 2 here: http://www.wikihow.com/Diagnose-a-Loss-of-Spark-in-Your-Car-Engine
You are not testing the spark plug, you are just checking at least one handy spark plug wire at the spark plug end to verify that the ignition system has any capability.
How did your ether spray test go? It would provide the same or better info than the spark plug wire test - if the car fires for a few seconds on a shot of ether then you don't have a (major) spark problem, you have a fuel-air problem.
I have spark at the plugs...
...
Can't say I've ever tested the spark at a plug, how do I do that?
Now I am confused.
How did your ether spray test go?
Now I'm really confused.
(It's Julle's and Dave's fault)
Yes I know how to see whether or not I HAVE spark...I've done that and I have spark.
I thought you guys were asking me to test the spark. As in, how well it sparks LMFAO
I just picked up the ether, I will give it a go shortly.
LMFAO! ! !
Check for spark with the lights on while you are at it :deviltail:
OK, just gave it a squirt of ether....it started and then as expected...quit.
Now we know its fuel related or as Rich mentioned, air.
Is it possible that my fuel pump could buzz yet not "pump" gas?
Do you have a helper to work key right now?
Wife is busy at the moment, I will in a sec.
I just turned on the lights and gave it a squirt of ether, it started.
It started but died again, I assume LOL?
Swap the cold start valve and WUR plugs and see if it "tries" better than with no ether earlier. Then compare again with a shot of ether first.
Yeah sorry, it quit again. Even though I'm 2 hours ahead of you :) I'm going to bed. I'll try tomorrow morning and post the results.
It is as simple as plugging the CSI plug into the WUR and theWUR plug in the CSI right
DMC5180
07-27-2013, 01:05 AM
Perhaps your overlooking the simple stuff. It fired right up on ether. You here the pump buzzing. You should have some kind of fuel at the engine, unless The tank is very low and perhaps the pickup hose failed. Are you sure it's the fuel pump you are hearing and not the FV or ISM buzzing? Just covering all options.
Sleep well. ...I have to babysit a fire/ems pager.
DMC5180
07-27-2013, 01:17 AM
It is as simple as plugging the CSI plug into the WUR and theWUR plug in the CSI right
WUR connector onto the CSV only. IF it fires up, quickly switch them back or you will flood the engine. I'm betting it won't start though. The reason being the engine would not continue running after the shot of Starting fluid.
+1
Yeah, if you have been trying it a lot, the CSV will normally stop spraying.... Just wonder how much fuel it is getting.
You might also try pressing the plate way down quickly, once, to give it a good shot of fuel (if you stlil haven't been smelling raw fuel...)
You may be able to help the plate right after it starts to keep it running (push just a tiny bit) ...all depends...and any clue helps.
Bitsyncmaster
07-27-2013, 05:34 AM
Have you been trying to start without touching the gas pedal? If so, try giving a little bit of gas when starting. If your idle ECU (or idle motor) bit the dust, it could be fully closed.
kings1527
07-27-2013, 10:02 AM
Sleep well. ...I have to babysit a fire/ems pager.
A fellow firefighter/DeLorean owner. A somewhat rare commodity! Excellent!
DMC5180
07-27-2013, 11:14 AM
Have you been trying to start without touching the gas pedal? If so, try giving a little bit of gas when starting. If your idle ECU (or idle motor) bit the dust, it could be fully closed.
As stated in the Owners Manual
1. Apply parking brake
2. Put the transmission in Neutral or Park
3. Press the gas pedal down approximately one quarter of its total travel. (yeah, I never do this either)
4. Turn the ignition key to the starting position.
When engine has started:
I. Release the key
II. Release the gas pedal
If the valve is closed it would probable act like it was trying to start (stumbling) but can't. Cracking the throttle would override the ISM (micro-switch) would be OPEN/OFF.
Put your hand on the ISM with the key ON too feel if it is vibrating.
You can also swing the CSV pipe rearward pulling the hose from the ISM end. Push the hose aside so you can see inside the ISM. Have someone else turn the key to the run position. It should snap CLOSED then swing OPEN.
The didn't start when attaching the WUR plug to the CSV
I have tried with the gas pedal depressed.
I got called into work and I have a wedding this afternoon. I might be able to "play" with the car a little later but today looks like a write off.
Guys I really appreciate the help, advice, suggestions. I'll keep you posted.
A fellow firefighter/DeLorean owner. A somewhat rare commodity! Excellent!
:thumbup:
Never really had a chance to monkey with it this weekend. I'm going to start at the fuel pump, and go from there. I have a strut bar, how many lbs torque should it be when I re-instal? IIRC...30?
.... I have a strut bar, how many lbs torque should it be when I re-instal? ?
Which strut bar would that be? Are you talking about a torque wrench with which you want to reinstall part of your fuel system?
No, the "strut tower brace"....aftermarket piece.
I think my fuel pump is bad, or something having to do with the pump.
If I pull the white plug and apply power to the white and black wires going to the pump. The fuel pump should buzz right, regardless of whether or not the ignition is on?
I'd also like to test the power going to the pump at the plug. I have a multimeter but I don't know where the dial should be set to (DCV, ACV, DCA, Ω, 10A, hFE) and which 2 of the 3 plugs I should have the black/red cables attached (10ADC, VΩmA, or COM)
Thanks in advance
I'd also like to test the power going to the pump at the plug. I have a multimeter but I don't know where the dial should be set to (DCV, ACV, DCA, Ω, 10A, hFE) and which 2 of the 3 plugs I should have the black/red cables attached (10ADC, VΩmA, or COM)
There's a simpler way to test the power. See below after answer.
You are looking for 12-13 volts DC out of almost any of the power delivery plugs in most cars, including this one.
Black VOM cable to COM.
Red VOM cable to V (V, ohm, mA)
Dial set to DCV.
If the reading is negative just flip the probes on the plug, not on the VOM.
Thanks Rich, got a reading of 10.58. Low but nothing to be concerned about?
Battery might be a little low, lots of cranking with no running ;)
The simple way to look for 12V power anywhere on a car.
12 volt test lamp with probe and ground clamp. Clamp to a known ground or a ground extension wire connected to the car's ground circuit.
http://www.autozone.com/autozone/accessories/Innova-Transparent-handle-test-light-circuit-tester/_/N-2714?itemIdentifier=186543_0_0_
I have a test light but of course it is not at home. Although I am impressed I had a multimeter though :)
Bitsyncmaster
07-31-2013, 05:44 AM
I think my fuel pump is bad, or something having to do with the pump.
If I pull the white plug and apply power to the white and black wires going to the pump. The fuel pump should buzz right, regardless of whether or not the ignition is on?
I'd also like to test the power going to the pump at the plug. I have a multimeter but I don't know where the dial should be set to (DCV, ACV, DCA, Ω, 10A, hFE) and which 2 of the 3 plugs I should have the black/red cables attached (10ADC, VΩmA, or COM)
Thanks in advance
As stated with other posts use the "VΩmA" for the red test lead and the "COM" for the black test lead. You will only get voltage at the pump with the engine running or the RPM relay jumpered. So with the RPM relay jumpered, read the voltage on the two pump terminals (black test lead to one and red test lead to the other). You need at least 10 or 11 volts on the pump but hopefully it shows higher.
The simple way to look for 12V power anywhere on a car.
12 volt test lamp with probe and ground clamp. Clamp to a known ground or a ground extension wire connected to the car's ground circuit.
http://www.autozone.com/autozone/accessories/Innova-Transparent-handle-test-light-circuit-tester/_/N-2714?itemIdentifier=186543_0_0_
+1
This is usually the best tool since a meter will read 12V when there isn't enough amperage available to run a gnat's flashlight. An probe light will show you the circuit will at least handle a small load...
When in doubt, disconnect the component and apply 12V (fused) straight off of the battery (+) AND (-) -- This eliminates the entire car and guesswork.
(In this case, carefully connect jumper wires to the pump, THEN connect them to the battery to keep any sparks away from the pump).
When in doubt, disconnect the component and apply 12V (fused) straight off of the battery (+) AND (-) -- This eliminates the entire car and guesswork.
(In this case, carefully connect jumper wires to the pump, THEN connect them to the battery to keep any sparks away from the pump).
The portable battery packs work great for that kind of stuff. They have and on/off switch and you don't need a bunch of cable to hook up to the battery. Hook it up, quick on...off, simple.
OK a little update. I came to the conclusion that my fuel pump is toast.
So after ordering the new fuel sender module from DMC, waiting for it, receiving it and finally having the time to install it I have a question.
21672
21673
Above is the fuel pump that is(was) in the car. I believe that the PO installed one of Johns pumps: http://www.specialtauto.com/delorean-parts/images/delorean-fuel-update-kit..jpg
My question is that the "tuna can" pick-up is attached to the bottom my fuel tank. It has a bolt coming up from what looks like underneath, with a washer and a nut securing it. There is no way that it would be bolted through the tank is it??
I'm scared to remove it....
I apologize for the crappy cell phone pictures.
It just occurred to me......is that a factory bolt in the middle of the tank?
sdg3205
08-31-2013, 01:21 AM
Yes, that bolt is moulded into the plastic tank and held the original baffle arm in place.
Ahhh, thanks Dave.
It's hard to figure out and/or remember what is original when changing an after market part with a different after market part 8)
Well...........new pump installed...........no start :(
I wanted to check the fuel line (to filter/engine) to make sure the new pump was actually pumping. When I pulled the line off, I was surprised by the amount of pressure. I expected the gas to "flow" out of the hard line, but it shot like a fire hydrant. Is that normal?
-The car starts with ether, then quits.
-Does not start with the WUR plug into the CSV
-RPM relay is fine (new solid state last year) I tried the RPM bypass, the new pump hummed constantly like it should, but the car still did not fire.
The tank is spotless, the pump is new, and the car fires with ether. What am I missing?? The only thing left is the fuel line from tank to engine.
I did NOT change the fuel filter yet, I was anxious to try starting it. I can't see it being plugged solid on a what was a daily driver and my jack stands and/or ramps are both at work.
Can (should) I pull a line off at the engine to see if its getting fuel?
I wanted to check the fuel line (to filter/engine) to make sure the new pump was actually pumping. When I pulled the line off, I was surprised by the amount of pressure. I expected the gas to "flow" out of the hard line, but it shot like a fire hydrant. Is that normal?
Yes. Normal.
The primary pressure is held at >>45PSI for quite some time after shutdown. Toward this goal the fuel pump check valve prevents backflow and the accumulator holds a fair amount of fuel so you probably witnessed its full shot plus whatever volume could have been due to just the lines relaxing when the pressure went to zero as you opened it up.
One has to be careful when diagnosing or disassembling the K-Jet plumbing anywhere on the high side for just this reason.
Sounds like you found out the messy way that your primary fuel pressure is OK.....The metering plate push test is the easier way to get a rough go/no-go feel for the primary fuel pressure with engine off and no gauges.
Next time.
rdarlington
10-21-2013, 12:07 AM
Is there any chance your ignition distributor isn't clamped down properly and shifted position? Cap is still clipped to it, pickup is still good, etc?
Is there any chance your ignition distributor isn't clamped down properly and shifted position? Cap is still clipped to it, pickup is still good, etc?
I'll check, thanks
sdg3205
10-21-2013, 01:09 AM
Jeff,
Silly question, but are you 100% sure the fuel lines from the pump to the hard lines are correct?
DSNW Toby
10-21-2013, 01:21 AM
Jeff - A quick thought. Can you confirm that the fuel feed and return hoses at the pump were installed in the correct positions? In other words, it is possible (and easily done) to mix up which is the pressure line, and which is the return line. The instructions for the fuel tank module tell you which is which in regards to the hard lines going back from the tank towards the engine. The hard line nearest the center of the car should be the feed line. If you mix these two hoses up, you will be sending fuel under pressure into the fuel return system, and visa versa. As I said .... just a quick thought.
Bitsyncmaster
10-21-2013, 05:39 AM
I have seen a plugged fuel filter. I found it hard to believe but there was zero PSI at the FD and the pump was running.
Jeff - A quick thought. Can you confirm that the fuel feed and return hoses at the pump were installed in the correct positions? In other words, it is possible (and easily done) to mix up which is the pressure line, and which is the return line. The instructions for the fuel tank module tell you which is which in regards to the hard lines going back from the tank towards the engine. The hard line nearest the center of the car should be the feed line. If you mix these two hoses up, you will be sending fuel under pressure into the fuel return system, and visa versa. As I said .... just a quick thought.
Double, triple and quadruple checked :) The instructions, like you mentioned are excellent and straight forward. The line I pulled off to check if it was indeed "feeding" was the hard line closest to the center. I checked the new hoses hoses to make sure they weren't kinked.
I have seen a plugged fuel filter. I found it hard to believe but there was zero PSI at the FD and the pump was running.
I'm sure its possible, but on a daily driven car? I can see the filter being plugged on a car that has been sitting.
Is there 1 specific line I can pull off at the engine to see if I'm getting gas there?
NightFlyer
10-21-2013, 12:06 PM
Double, triple and quadruple checked :) The instructions, like you mentioned are excellent and straight forward. The line I pulled off to check if it was indeed "feeding" was the hard line closest to the center. I checked the new hoses hoses to make sure they weren't kinked.
I'm sure its possible, but on a daily driven car? I can see the filter being plugged on a car that has been sitting.
Is there 1 specific line I can pull off at the engine to see if I'm getting gas there?
You should be able to hear the fuel flowing through the fuel distributor with the RPM relay jumped and pump running. Or, you can disconnect the main feed line into the FD from the fuel filter. Just make sure you put that line into a catch container for the fuel that should come out of it.
As said the air plate is a good place to check for pressure, but it only tells you that you have some pressure.
(Pull an injector, jump the relay, and briefly press the plate to see if it delivers at all....)
To answer your question, the easiest place is probably at the FD (circled in RED). LOTS of fuel should come out.
You might pull the return line at the tank and see if it is coming right back to the tank. Some should.
If that don't pan out, I had a bad WUR once that was dumping fuel so bad that the injectors didn't have enough pressure left to activate (check flow at green circle)...never heard of it before but ya never know.))
22655
I'm sure you've heard it before, but a pressure gauge setup is invaluable here...
It started....................as soon as I changed the fuel filter, it fired right up!!
NightFlyer
10-24-2013, 02:43 PM
It started....................as soon as I changed the fuel filter, it fired right up!!
Excellent - so either the filter was clogged, or you had a pressure leak at one of the filter connections that was remedied when you changed it out.
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