Arc required to un-torque the torsion bars?

[DrJeff]

Okay, roof box de-rusted CHECK, yellow-white wires extended to fuse area CHECK, T-panel cleaned up CHECK,... is there anything else I can do to avoid adjusting the torque on the torsion bars and doing the roof separation fix... NO!

So I'm thinking... 1) remove the torque from the torsion bars, 2) do the roof separation fix, and 3) re-torque the torsion bars to the right level.

1 Question... to completely remove the torque from the torsion bars, how many degrees of rotation are necessary. From the photos, it looks like it must be less than 180 degrees as the breaker/cheater bar would hit the body/engine on the sweep around - otherwise you would need to stop, reattach the bracket and then start again with the breaker bar repositioned.

[tgraham]

It's not much. Maybe 45 degrees or so, IIRC.

Travis

[DMC5180]

It's about a 90 degree swing if properly adjusted.

[Ron]

Close to 90° sounds right to me..

If you don't have rust issues, there is no need to mess with the torsion bars. Just open the doors, remove the headliner so you can tell where the wires are and go for it. (it's going right back where it came from...).
FWIW: I guess most use 2 bolts w/ large washers, but we used 4 (no adhesive, but sealer) on two different cars w/o a problem for years now.

[DMCMW Dave]

Close to 90° sounds right to me..
.

90 degrees WITH THE DOOR OPEN.

More like 180 with it closed but never try to set the bar with the door closed, you will stretch out the allen head end of the bar and then the clamp will be stuck.

[Ron]

90 degrees WITH THE DOOR OPEN.

More like 180 with it closed but never try to set the bar with the door closed, you will stretch out the allen head end of the bar and then the clamp will be stuck.
Dennis said it first, why are you yelling at me? :cry:

[DrJeff]

Good info. I've got some over-torqued doors, so I'll prep for something more than 90 degrees.

Thanks

[Bitsyncmaster]

If you "hyper" extend the doors (little past vertical) then you can usally relase all the tenstion and the bracket will just clear the rear window. Now if someone over torqued the bars you may not clear the window.

[DMCMW Dave]

Dennis said it first, why are you yelling at me? :cry:

Not yelling at you, I was stressing the door open part (There, is bold underline better?). I've had some cars here with really screwed up torsion bars from people adjusting with the door closed. Since he seemed to be starting from scratch, it seemed like a good idea at the time.

[Ron]

:hihi2:

[Rich]

Good info. I've got some over-torqued doors, so I'll prep for something more than 90 degrees.

I see some notes about releasing all the tension. Are we sure there's a need to release the tension fully?

For a mere detorquing the movement isn't all that far. In that case the wrench-extension preload to get the bracket floating is the major arc movement. Then when the bracket is free and with the breaker bar neutralizing the torque, back down one or more bracket splines with the wrench always taking the load and then reset the bracket there and bolt it. The bar goes directly from high-torque to somewhat lower torque but not to zero torque.

You only need to swing wide and get zero torque if you want to remove the torsion bar and/or the bracket for some other reason beyond torque adjustment.

[DMC5180]

I see some notes about releasing all the tension. Are we sure there's a need to release the tension fully?

You only need to swing wide and get zero torque if you want to remove the torsion bar and/or the bracket for some other reason beyond torque adjustment.

Good point Rich.

If it's only reducing the torque it should not be much more than a 1-2 spline adjustment. (20-40 deg) Driver side unload is CCW Passenger is CW. Complete Unloading of the bar would be about 90 degrees (door OPEN). I would never attempt it with door closed. Opening the door releases Half the torque and is the best starting point. You need about a 4 foot cheater pipe slid over the breaker bar to make things manageable.

[Bitsyncmaster]

On my car, the brackets could not be removed at a tech session where many experanced "door adjusters" were trying to reduce my T bar adjusment. When I removed all the tention, the brackts easily slid off.

[DrJeff]

Thanks Rich, I wanted to release all the torque because i've also got to correct roof separation. At a guess I would say that there's 1cm of separation already on the passenger side. Pulling the upper/lower roof sections together would mean a slight increase in the torque on that door. So I may as well go to zero torque and then once the roof is in the right spot (or at least new spot) I can adjust the door torque then.

[DrJeff]

I got the torsion bars de-torsioned today so that I could implement the Roof Separation fix. My RH side in particular was already showing some distortion. On top of that both my doors were over-torqued. I build the jig, door holder bar, got all the right tools together, etc...

I filmed the de-torquing and bracket removal procedure (http://youtu.be/-z41C0SPVbs). There is a bit of excitement around 9 mins 50 seconds where we don't have enough counter-torque on the RH torsion bar (arc is already fully extended on the cheater bar and this door is way over torqued) and the bracket 'pops' as it starts to move.

During the video you'll hear some general lamenting about the state of the bolts that are coming out. I already knew that someone had been into the torsion bars, over-adjusted, missing washer, wrong screws on the trim screen. As you can see from the pictures there is a good degree of damage to the threads of the bolts that came out. They are supposed to be M8s, the socket size that fitted the bolt head was 1/2in. The captured nuts themselves don't look too bad, however it is harder to see their state.

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Before I try to bolt all this back together I was thinking new bolts and probably re-tap the treads on the captured nuts. If I can't get them to look good I'm wondering if going to a slightly larger bolt size and tapping out might work? I'll also put back in the washers and spring washers as per the drawings on the DMCH site.

Looking for advice!!!

[Ron]

No access to vid -"private".

[DrJeff]

YouTube is complaining about the song on the iPod in the background

[DMC5180]

Unfortunately, This is not uncommon. Your bolts should be M8's. Look on the head of the bolt. Metric bolt will have numbers on them. Example 8.8 or 10.9 M8 bolts have 13 MM hex but sometimes a 1/2 SAE will fit on them depending on the quality of Socket. SAE bolts have Hash marks to define the hardness grade. Grade 2 (none), grade 5 (3 marks) grade 8 (5-6 marks)

The chewed up threads are a direct result of not unloaded the torque load on the threads while installing or removing.

You may be able to chase the Nut threads with a proper M8 x 1.25 tap. You will need fresh bolts. You can get those a local hardware store. The absolute worst case would be to install M8 Heli-coils to freshen the nut threads and hope the tack welded nuts don't let go. I've never done this personally, but I have considered doing it to mine. I have one nut that is buggered up a bit, but still holds with fresh Bolts. I'm very cautious when tightening the bolt on that one. The other thing to pay close attention too is re-installation of new bolts. You want make sure the plate is NOT bearing on the bolt when screwing them in. You have too finesse things so you can virtually thread the bolts in with your fingers. This is one the main reasons to have a helper.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Agree with Dennis, just chase the threads with the M8 tap. Don't use much pressure on the tap. If it starts to require too much torque, back out the tap and blow the chips out. Best to use Aluma-tap to get clean threads but just chasing will probably work dry.

[Ron]

Same here.

Use a fresh quality tap.
(Hoping PO didn't use SAE bolts, but it looks like it to me.)

[DrJeff]

Video updated... I had an iPod playing in the background and YouTube complained about violating copyright. So, in YouTube, I replaced the audio with other music that they obviously don't have a problem with. Downside is you loose the audio from the original recording - just daft. Now a clever algorithm would have edited the original audio to remove the identified music - maybe YouTube will catch on next year.

Here's a link to the replaced video (http://youtu.be/8C6FjQmwJV4)

[Bitsyncmaster]

With the T-panel off you can open the doors much further. It makes a big difference in the torque to remove the bars. Just pull off the door struts.

[DrJeff]

Same here.

Use a fresh quality tap.
(Hoping PO didn't use SAE bolts, but it looks like it to me.)

Here are some photos of the tops of the bolts...

2081020811

Looks like M CRF 88

[DMC5180]

Here are some photos of the tops of the bolts...

2081020811

Looks like M CRF 88

Those are the Factory bolts

[DrJeff]

The chewed up threads are a direct result of not unloaded the torque load on the threads while installing or removing.

Could this have happened just today when we were removing them? There was a little resistance in the bolts, but not that much once they started moving. It was nothing like the force needed when a bolt gets cross-threaded.

The flattest part of the threads on the bolt was the section nearest the head where it would have been up against the bracket.

[DMC5180]

It is possible. That kind of chewing comes from rotation against a hard surface and this installation is famous for doing that. I watched your Video and it appeared that the person holding the breaker did not have enough counter torque applied initially, especially on the RH door. You had to reset the bar, so at that point the damage was done. Typically when you first loosen the both bolts (1 turn or so) the plate will be able to move Counter- torque in the direction the breaker bar is being held IF enough pressure is being applied. I did not see any of the movement while you were wrenching the bolts. It appeared you had to use a fair amount of force to unscrew them. This is what chews the bolts. You can when the counter torque is applied at the right amount, find that sweet spot where the bolts will turn with you fingers. ( this assumes the bolts weren't previously mangled)

This is just one of those first time learning curve things.

[DrJeff]

So the idea is that as the bolt is coming out, the bracket is still pressing onto it - since the bracket is still carrying the torque load. The pressure flattens out the threads on the bolt. This should mean that the threads in the nut should be mostly okay - since the damage to the bolt is done by the brackets after it is clear of the nut.

So I guess this makes me a torsion bar virgin?:wink:

[DMC5180]

So the idea is that as the bolt is coming out, the bracket is still pressing onto it - since the bracket is still carrying the torque load. The pressure flattens out the threads on the bolt. This should mean that the threads in the nut should be mostly okay - since the damage to the bolt is done by the brackets after it is clear of the nut.

So I guess this makes me a torsion bar virgin?:wink:

Hopefully that is the case. You should still get a Thread tap a to clean them out just in case. Also make sure the new bolts can be threaded in with light finger pressure before you start reassembly. Then You should be Golden.

[Rich]

So the idea is that as the bolt is coming out, the bracket [WAS] still pressing onto it - since the bracket [WAS] still carrying the torque load [due to the backing wrench load being incorrect, not balancing the torsion bar load]. The pressure flatten[ed] out the threads on the bolt. This should mean that the threads in the nut should be mostly okay - since the damage to the bolt is done by the brackets after it is clear of the nut.

That's just about right, corrections in brackets here.

Do a test fit with the old bolt or a new bolt to be sure the nut is OK, as Dennis recommends.

The good news is that when you reassemble and set the preload on the torsion bar you will not have the problem of incorrect backing wrench load. Either the bracket holes line up with the roof holes or they don't. If they don't then the bolts won't go in - or won't go in straight. You want to give clear guidance to your assistant on the other end of the wrench when you do this. You'll be able to move the bracket left-right-up-down due to the clearance around the torsion bar but your assistant is the one who sets the bracket's angle, which is important, especially for the second bolt.

[DrJeff]

Thanks Rich, I'll have a word with 'that assistant' (unfortunately he's unpaid and a member of the family so I can't fire him :) I guess I'll give him a second chance.

I got new M8 bolts tonight and tried them out on the nuts. Three went in pretty smoothly, but the fourth offered some resistance. Looking at the nut closely, it looks like the M8 tap should clean it up okay. The tap just about makes a clean entry just using finger pressure, but I'll need to set up to do it correctly and make sure it's right.

So really not too bad.

[Chris 16409]

Not entirely related, but I noticed Byrne Heninger now lists a passenger-side torsion bar for sale on his website. In fact, you can buy both for less than $800. Now you don't have to worry about having mismatched bars.