R12 vs R134- $460 vs $560 for repairs... opinions?

[jackb]

My D had been converted to R134 by the previous previous owner, it's never had the best a/c as long as I've been an owner, due to a mystery leak.
I NEED a/c. The lack of good a/c has been what prevented me from driving the car far more often than any other reason. So I know good a/c will allow me to drive it much more.

I finally brought it to a shop (recommended by other owners on the az-d.org board) and they are replacing a hose and several o-rings.
Between parts and labor, to refill it with R134 will run $460. To put it back onto R12 will run $560.

I don't really believe R134 is more leak prone (if it's going to leak 134, it's going to leak 12, molecule size be damned). But I do know R12 is more efficient, and cools better. Supposedly it flows through the system and carries the oil better too.

Part of me says, "you're already spending $460, will $560 hurt that bad?" and part of me says "hey, $100 is no joke!"

Opinions?

[Silverbullet]

I am not sure why you hate 134a, Mine was converted and blows really cold, like all the other 134a cars I have. Also the 134a costs way less and is easier to buy and add to the system as time goes by...:thumbup2:

Craig

[WelmoedJ]

My D had been converted to R134 by the previous previous owner, it's never had the best a/c as long as I've been an owner, due to a mystery leak.
I NEED a/c. The lack of good a/c has been what prevented me from driving the car far more often than any other reason. So I know good a/c will allow me to drive it much more.

I finally brought it to a shop (recommended by other owners on the az-d.org board) and they are replacing a hose and several o-rings.
Between parts and labor, to refill it with R134 will run $460. To put it back onto R12 will run $560.

I don't really believe R134 is more leak prone (if it's going to leak 134, it's going to leak 12, molecule size be damned). But I do know R12 is more efficient, and cools better. Supposedly it flows through the system and carries the oil better too.

Part of me says, "you're already spending $460, will $560 hurt that bad?" and part of me says "hey, $100 is no joke!"

Opinions?

If your car leaks a/c refrigerant, it doesn't matter if it's R12 or R134a!
R12 actually is outlawed so stick with R134a.

- If the orifice is clogged, you'll never get a decent A/C temp, regardless if you use R12 or R134a.
- If you don't want leaks, have both hoses replaced with the proper type for R134a, replace all O-rings, orifice , accumulator and switches.
- Make sure the seals of the compressor (also at bearings) are good or replace them.
- Have the system pressure tested overnight for leaks using nitrogen, before actually filling with refrigerant and "oil".
- Have some fluor added to the refrigerant: this helps detecting leaks in the future.

My car uses R134a and I give it a checkup and some additional refrigerant each two years and still has the old R12 hoses.
In the meantime it cools down to a little over 42° F even when getting close to the checkup.
I had almost all of the system overhauled (parts mentioned previously, plus condenser and compressor) when the car came into my possession.
Since that time the system performs well.
I believe in regularly preventative maintenance.

[Bitsyncmaster]

You never know what the PO did. When converting you have to get that old mineral oil out of the system or you will have problems. I hope your AC shop will do a good flush.

[David T]

You never know what the PO did. When converting you have to get that old mineral oil out of the system or you will have problems. I hope your AC shop will do a good flush.

While R-12 is very regulated it's use is not outlawed. IMHO it is worth the extra $100 for better cooling especially where you are. What I WOULD insist on is that they fix the leak and guarantee it for a while for that price.
David Teitelbaum

[Farrar]

If it were me, I'd have a shop evacuate and recover the remaining R-12 and then do the work myself. It's a great way to learn about a/c. I had to buy some huge wrenches and an air compressor, but those are worthy investments in the future, anyway. :)

[EdR5150]

If it were me, I'd have a shop evacuate and recover the remaining R-12 and then do the work myself.

Didn't you struggle with your AC for almost a year, get it working just a few days ago, and post on FB that it failed this afternoon?
****ducks**** ;)

[jackb]

Thanks for the input everyone.
I decided to keep it running r134 after the leak is fixed. I was going to go with r12 until talking to the shop today, and they said the r134 was doing the trick when they tested it, so the extra expense seems un-neccesary, and they recommended now to keep 134 (yesterday they were kind of pushing the r12). They are installing the new hose today and vacuum checking it again overnight. It should be charged and ready tomorrow, and I plan on picking it up on Thursday (I hope it's hot as hell outside, lol). I will post final details after I get it back.

Silverbullet - I don't hate r134 at all. As long as it cools well, I don't care what is in the system. The effectiveness vs cost was my variable.

WelmoedJ - Completely agree. Finding/fixing the leak is the only solution, anything else is a bandaid and destined to fail.

Bitsyncmaster - The previous previous owner was Mike-6720 (I don't think he's on this .org board anymore) and he did a lot of work with Morpheus (http://dmctalk.org/member.php?16-Morpheus)and Mike (http://dmctalk.org/member.php?2-Mike), so fortunately, I haven't run into "Previous Owner Problems". I believe they are the ones who did the r12->r134 conversion.

David T - I spoke to the shop owner this afternoon, and he said they were getting very cold temps (38? 40? I forgot already...) with r134 when they were testing it. I was sitting on the decision overnight and was going to go with the r12, but when I spoke to him today he said they believe the r134 should be just fine.

Farrar - I did really seriously consider this, but decided the combination of time and money spent on specific tools was not worth it. I do aaallll the work on all my vehicles, but a/c will be the exception.

[Farrar]

Didn't you struggle with your AC for almost a year, get it working just a few days ago, and post on FB that it failed this afternoon?
****ducks**** ;)

I posted what you responded to when my a/c was working. So there goes part of your argument.

And here goes the rest: You can't actually say "for almost a year," unless you want to count all of the time I spent not working on it. If I used that logic, then I would have to say that I've been in school for 29 years and still don't have a college degree. The actual number of hours I spent actually working on the a/c probably totals less than 40. When you work on the a/c for a few hours, then ignore it for several months while you work on something else, and work on the a/c again for a few more hours, you can't really say it's the same thing as "struggling with a/c for several months."

But hey, I'm just a guy on the Internet, just trying to help other people with no expectation of thanks or reward. Maybe I should just shut up and not offer any advice or opinions, even when asked. <shrug>

[David T]

I posted what you responded to when my a/c was working. So there goes part of your argument.

And here goes the rest: You can't actually say "for almost a year," unless you want to count all of the time I spent not working on it. If I used that logic, then I would have to say that I've been in school for 29 years and still don't have a college degree. The actual number of hours I spent actually working on the a/c probably totals less than 40. When you work on the a/c for a few hours, then ignore it for several months while you work on something else, and work on the a/c again for a few more hours, you can't really say it's the same thing as "struggling with a/c for several months."

But hey, I'm just a guy on the Internet, just trying to help other people with no expectation of thanks or reward. Maybe I should just shut up and not offer any advice or opinions, even when asked. <shrug>

You may be getting nice cold temps in the shop but how will it perform out in the hot sun when it is 110 in the shade and you are idling in traffic? That is when you will notice the difference between -134 and -12.
David Teitelbaum

[WelmoedJ]

You may be getting nice cold temps in the shop but how will it perform out in the hot sun when it is 110 in the shade and you are idling in traffic? That is when you will notice the difference between -134 and -12.
David Teitelbaum

Difference????
I have both oldtimer and yougtimer cars.
The youngtimers blow as cold R134a as R12 did when my D still had R12 in it.
My D now has R134a and it blows as cold as intended.

The inside temperature not only depends on the refrigerant but also on the total system operating correctly.
A properly operating A/C system ought not to give bad results whatever refrigerant used.

Mind that R134a also is on its way to being outlawed (at least in Europe).
If you care about the environment we have to leave behind to our children, stop using R12.
It's more poluting that R134a, which again is more poluting than R1234yf (adviced, but not yet mandatory, in the EU).

[David T]

You are correct in that a system designed to use -134 CAN be as cold as one designed to use -12. Putting -134 into a system DESIGNED to use -12 will reduce the capacity by about 10%. The coils for a -12 system are not sized big enough to efficiently use -134. R-12 is fine to use, just make sure your system doesn't leak and you will be "green".
David Teitelbaum

[jackb]

Well, I drove my r134 Delorean back from the shop the other day, so far, so good. Nice and cool.