Cylinder shimming question

[dallarax19]

I set up the block and liners to measure the gap for shimming.
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g89/dallarax19/DSC01375.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/dallarax19/media/DSC01375.jpg.html)
From reading the various manuals I was expecting the liner to stand proud of the block but on the first three cylinders checked all were flush with the block.
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g89/dallarax19/DSC01381.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/dallarax19/media/DSC01381.jpg.html)
So my question is what is normal? Is the liner proud, underflush or what? I would appreciate feedback from the folks who have done this.

[DMC5180]

Page C:06:02 " With Liner base seals in position, the amount of liner position above the cylinder block should be between 0,16 and 0,23 mm (.0063 to .0091") work as close to 0,23 mm ( .0091") as possible.

All the info you need is in the Workshop Manual and how to properly measure it.

[dallarax19]

I should have clarified the set up a bit more. I am measuring it without any shims to determine which shims are needed. It looks like the "white" shims but I am looking for feedback from people who have done a rebuild to confirm what I am observing. I am also referencing several manuals, Renault Factory - French, Simon Factory - German, and Haynes Volvo 260. I was expecting to see a gap either at the cylinder or at the block not flush.

[DMC5180]

You add shims accordingly till the liner is proud of the block about .009". All liner sets are slightly different but with in a manufacturing tolerance and need to be shimmed to meet the spec accordingly. I don't know what more to say about it. Other than what you are seeing is likely typical. Blue and Yellow shims add up to .0092 which is the top of the target spec. Assuming you liners are truly flush.

[dallarax19]

Dennis - Thanks for the response and of cource it sparks a few more questions:

"Other than what you are seeing is likely typical" This is really what I was looking for.

The concept of this shimming the bottom of the liner is odd to me. It seems to have a high probability of not going right and you won't know till the engine is in and the fluids added. Through the assembly process it would seem very easy to have the liner move around and damage the shim. This also looks to be the seal between the oil pan and waterjacket - this is my concern about not getting it right.

1) Have you done a rebuild before and commenting on experience?
2) Do you use multiple shims? (this seems very high risk if it is supposed to seal too)

Anyone else want to weigh in? Feedback would be appreciated.

[Delorean Industries]

Dennis - Thanks for the response and of cource it sparks a few more questions:

"Other than what you are seeing is likely typical" This is really what I was looking for.

The concept of this shimming the bottom of the liner is odd to me. It seems to have a high probability of not going right and you won't know till the engine is in and the fluids added. Through the assembly process it would seem very easy to have the liner move around and damage the shim. This also looks to be the seal between the oil pan and waterjacket - this is my concern about not getting it right.

1) Have you done a rebuild before and commenting on experience?
2) Do you use multiple shims? (this seems very high risk if it is supposed to seal too)

Anyone else want to weigh in? Feedback would be appreciated.

Do not stack shims.

[Delorean Industries]

I would also recommend a proper straight edge for measuring.

[Delorean Industries]

and there needs to be even pressure on the cylinder liner for measuring. Holding on one side will distort the clearance being measured.

[dallarax19]

I appreciate the comment on the shims, stacking may be done but I just see it as problematic. I have a proper machinists block (edge) but the scale was handy to take the pic. What I don't have is are feeler gages less than .005" or shim stock to check the gap. Good comment on supporting the liners, I have two more sets of plates to capture both sides. So with that point, during assembly process are you using 8 retaining plates or 4 (2 pers side like the picture) but making the shim hight check with all 4 on one cylinder bank?

Finally, any "gotchas" on the shimming process or assembly process recommendations that will keep me out of trouble?

[Jeffu]

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?t=4808

See my previous post about this same issue. Now this only my opinion and but it worked for me. I would recommend not using any of the paper shims! Contact a Volvo dealer and get the newer superseded metal shims that fit for your engine tolerance height. IMHO...I would never double up paper shims for this motor. I think you would be asking for trouble. There are only 3 metal sizes now. For assembly lightly coat each side of the metal shims with Hylomar Blue sealant. Research it! The sealant was engineered for metal to metal contact by Rolls Royce for aircraft engines. That stuff seals like no other. The head gasket will absorb some height inconsistencies when you torque it down.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Most machine supply houses sell shim stock that a machinest will use all time. I've bought an assortment of brass shim stock that has thickness of 0.001" on up to 0.040". You cut that with sisors and use it to measure or shim a part for machining.

I would think the cylinder shims are made with a soft metal that will compress to hold the correct pressure on the liner. I've never done these shims but dry paper shims would not be my choice. And some sealer would also be what I would use to assure they never leak.

[dallarax19]

Not looking to stir up controversy but I am looking for feedback from folks that have shimmed cylinders previously. I am finally back to the engine rebuild and stuck on the cylinder shimming. By my measurements I cannot get to the 0.16mm -0.23mm gap (cylinder proud of block) with a single shim, for me a single pink shim gives me just 0.10mm gap from a flush cylinder/block starting point. From my feedback with the UK and French guys they say stack the shims but Josh (DPI) has stated that is not the way to go (so far only guy to say so that has commented), with that said how have the folks that have shimmed the cylinders got there with only one shim and how many have stacked shims? I would appreciate the help.

Brian

[David T]

Not looking to stir up controversy but I am looking for feedback from folks that have shimmed cylinders previously. I am finally back to the engine rebuild and stuck on the cylinder shimming. By my measurements I cannot get to the 0.16mm -0.23mm gap (cylinder proud of block) with a single shim, for me a single pink shim gives me just 0.10mm gap from a flush cylinder/block starting point. From my feedback with the UK and French guys they say stack the shims but Josh (DPI) has stated that is not the way to go (so far only guy to say so that has commented), with that said how have the folks that have shimmed the cylinders got there with only one shim and how many have stacked shims? I would appreciate the help.

Brian

Go back and reread the whole procedure in the Workshop Manual C:06:02-:03. Not only are you to aim for the higher spec, the difference between the cylinders can't exceed .0016 and you must "step" the cylinders, ie, once you determine your protrusions it must go in order lowest to highest front to back among the 3 cylinders in each bank. You should not stack shims BUT. Not all of the shim sizes are available anymore so you do have a problem. BTW the protrusion is also called "nip" and it is necessary to put enough pressure on the liner so it can't move and it seals properly top and bottom. To properly measure nip you must use a thrust plate to lock the liner firmly and evenly in place as in FIG 50 page C:06:02.

[dn010]

How are you measuring and what kind (material) of shims are you using? If you're using paper shims I'd suggest dumping them and getting metal and get a depth gauge for measuring.

[dallarax19]

Feedback is great. I dont have the Delorean manual so my page references are different. I have the Renault, Haynes, and Volvo manuals. I have all the information with the exception where they say "shim" the cylinder, that could be one or many. I did not see any reference to stacking so it is slightly ambiguous. I have dial indicators (depth gauges) but for the magnitudes I am discussing they are not necessary - here is a pic on one of them
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g89/dallarax19/DSC03191.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/dallarax19/media/DSC03191.jpg.html)

Here are some photos of the operation:
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g89/dallarax19/DSC03173.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/dallarax19/media/DSC03173.jpg.html)
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g89/dallarax19/DSC03180.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/dallarax19/media/DSC03180.jpg.html)
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g89/dallarax19/DSC03181.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/dallarax19/media/DSC03181.jpg.html)
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g89/dallarax19/DSC03183.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/dallarax19/media/DSC03183.jpg.html)
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g89/dallarax19/DSC03187.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/dallarax19/media/DSC03187.jpg.html)
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g89/dallarax19/DSC03189.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/dallarax19/media/DSC03189.jpg.html)

I was really looking for information that was more along the lines of "when I shimmed my cylinders the results were.....". My correspondence with John Lane and Martin Faulks is multi shim but I am curious about Josh's comment of only a single shims - I probably should have PMd him but we are where we are. Another point is metal shims, not sure about that one either. When I consider galvanic corrosion the stack up of Aluminum, cast iron, and steel or other doesn't look good. The feedback from the UK guys are they have observed them breaking down due to the galvanic reaction. The paper is inert but I cant get my mind around trying to create a seal with a multilayer stack. I am thinking the best option is to try to locate six yellow shims and make it happen with that. Anyway I would appreciate feedback from the folks that have shimmed cylinders and have comments on the good and bad of stacking.

[Bitsyncmaster]

It looks like your doing a good job with your overhaul. Measuring would be the way your doing it with a flat bar and shims (feeler gauge).

The cylinder shims are only going under the cylinder ends so if your going to get corrosion you will get it on the walls where is sits in the block anyway.

[David T]

Get the Delorean Workshop Manual. There are subtle differences among all of the manuals. According to the Delorean manual there are 4 different sized shims and you should be able to properly shim only using 1 of the correct size.
Blue .087 mm
White .102
Red .122
Yellow .147

The problem is some of them are NLA (no longer available).
The person who would seem to have the most recent experience and seems to have done a bunch of motors is Josh so you should follow his advice.

[Delorean Industries]

We have adapted the way this is done extensively. We now only make one shim size. Measurements are taken and we center-less grind the liners to spec. High accuracy finish every time. We offer this service to owners as well. Simply install liners in block with our shims, secure and take measurement. 195.00 for all liners precision matched to block. NOTE: Owner is on the hook for measurements of liner protrusion. We take before and after measurements and do exactly what you say for each cylinder.