Engine oil and ATF change: together or separate?

[Jonathan]

I have my car up on ramps on all four. A bunch of things are on the list to do while it is up in the air (relatively, I think about 16-18 inches is the space I have to work with under there).

- First is to just clean years of leftover road grime, oil, grease, and yuck. Likely going to go with a combination of brake cleaner in a can, Gunk engine degreaser in a can, and good old fashioned elbow grease with a rag or shop towel.
- Once things are cleaned up, I'd like to think it will give me a better idea as to where any fluids leaking might be coming from. I have seen oil dripping here and there as well as ATF.
- I plan on changing out my ATF by draining out the drain plug and then removing the pan. This is partly because I know one of the things contributing to the ATF leaking is the seal at the base of the ATF dipstick tube. I have the o-ring seals for it as well as the otterstat seals depending on which one I go with. I also have a new transmission pan gasket and shift computer governor seals if needed. I don't have a new auto trans filter of course as they are NLA. And I have new fluid to go in naturely.
- From the engine oil side, I have new filters as well as copper sealing washers (one of which will be used on ATF drain plug when put back in). I had a look at the oil pressure sender (gauge) and it does not appear to be leaking. It seemed like any oil that was dripping is near the pan corner above the catalytic converter. Not convinced it is there, but it may be from the pan gasket edge. I recall these gaskets aren't available and it rarely leaks from there (?). I don't have a new gasket but could tighten if necesary the bolts on it. I do have a couple different sized torque wrenches handy. I'd also believe if the oil was originating higher than that and dripping down from somewhere else.

So, main question is: any harm in doing both the engine oil change AND ATF change at the same time? i.e. without taking it down off the ramps and firing it up or driving it?

I know on previous oil changes I had done it with oil warm (but not hot). This was mentioned as a way to get the oil moving and let it drain out better. True/false?

I have not done ATF yet before, but understand the general idea is to drain it out, clean what needs to be cleaned (in my case), fix the dipstick seal, put the pan back and all that, and then fill with 3 quarts. Once the 3 quarts are in, then start the car and get it warm/hot like you would when testing the level. Level ground, coolant fans come on and off a couple times, put shifter through gears a couple times with foot on brake, and then keep testing level with dipstick and add small amounts of ATF until you get it right.

I know I can do all my cleaning and leak discovery while under there initially, but my guess would be to keep it simple and do the ATF with the oil as it is for now, get the ATF changed out correctly and then go back and do the oil change? Sound like a good plan of attack?

[Ron]

Getting the fluid warm is good but I wouldn't put it off for that reason, unless it is particularly dirty or contaminated.

[David T]

Check the oil light sender on the other side. You can change all of the fluids. Do not forget the final drive (at least check the level even if you do not change it). I would also cut open and clean the filter for the transmission. Use adequate ventilation and personal protection (eyes and skin). I dislike ramps because they can fall over sideways and they really don't raise the car enough to work underneath (I guess you must be young, skinny, and still flexible!). Inspect the TAB's, C/V boots, suspension and grease the front suspension. If you haven't done it in the last 2 years, flush the brakes and check the pads.
David Teitelbaum

[Jonathan]

Thanks for the tip on the oil being warm, Ron. It is not contaminated to my knowledge, so doing the fluids together sounds ok.

I agree with you on the ramps, David. I drove my car up on ramps about 5 years ago for the first time... and the last time. Waaaay too unstable and especially if you're without a helper. Now I jack the car up and slide the ramps underneath. I just don't trust them staying straight driving up on them. You're right about them not giving you a ton of space to work. I also have four jack stands (one on each corner) as the second layer of redundant safety... set just millimeters below the ramp holding height in case something goes wrong. Nervousness to a certain degree. I could probably do it the other way just as safely and put the car up on the jack stands at a slightly higher height, and then positions the ramps under each wheel as the second line of defense. I'm not doing anything right now with the wheels coming off and I am cleaning some of the frame areas where the jacks would rest, so that's kind of why I chose to do it this way. Would love access to a proper lift, but that's not available to me at this point in time.

I'll definitely be doing a lot of my visual inspections while under there. Like you said, check TABs, boots, shocks, springs, shift computer wiring positioning (not on exhaust), manifold gaskets, etc. My brakes will get done separately after this job as I intend to rebuild the front calipers before season end. The ATF filter in there and cutting it open to clean makes me a bit squimish only because of not being able to get a replacement. Good call on the oil light switch on the other side... looking at the diagrams, that's pretty close to being above where I am seeing the drips. Thanks!!

Young, skinny and still flexible??? Hahaha... I'd say no better than 5 out of 10 on any of those, lol!!!

[Dangermouse]

FWIW, I do all my fluid changes on all my cars just using a set of ramps on the appropriate axle. Never had a problem and personally I feel safer underneath with the car on ramps than jacks. But that's just me and I hope I haven't just jinxed myself. :blackeye:

Just make sure you get the right fluid in the right hole :)

[David T]

FWIW, I do all my fluid changes on all my cars just using a set of ramps on the appropriate axle. Never had a problem and personally I feel safer underneath with the car on ramps than jacks. But that's just me and I hope I haven't just jinxed myself. :blackeye:

Just make sure you get the right fluid in the right hole :)

There is a good write-up and pictures on how to do the filter. Using ramps AND jackstands takes up too much room to be able to work under the car comfortably. If the floor is flat and level the jackstands should be all you need it they are of decent quality. And with them you should be able to get the car a lot higher so you can use a creeper. Most of us don't have a lift so we have to crawl around on the floor. You can do just about everything without a lift, it just takes longer and is not as convenient.
David Teitelbaum

[Ron]

+1

Two come to mind:

http://dmcnews.com/Techsection/autotransfilter.html (http://dmcnews.com/Techsection/autotransfilter.html)http://dmcnews.com/Techsection/autotransfilter.html


http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?3822-Removing-Transmission-Fluid-and-Cleaning-Auto-Trans-Filter

[Jonathan]

Thanks for the links and feedback. I read through the DML page on cleaning the filter and it looks pretty straightforward. Well, other than the getting it apart section, the cleaning steps, and the reassembly :) I'll know better once I get the pan off.

I did get poking around under the car yesterday on my creeper and yea, my face was quite close to the bottom of the car. Not the most calming scenario, but I did get some views of thigns I don't often get. Got to peer directly up and in to my fuel accumulator to see it seems to be in good shape since being replaced a couple seasons ago, I got to peer in and see my TABs (hands free at this point...), and I also got to look around to see that the shift computer wiring isn't hangin onto anything hot.

Good call whoever mentioned the oil sender light might be leaking. It is. Not much, but of course, it doesn't need to to still make a mess over time.

I can remove it when I do my oil change and replace the copper crush washer, but wondered if the ones we use for the oil drain plug would work?

I have a few of those and intend on using one for the transmission fluid drain plug as well since they are the same part number, but noticed the oil sender light copper washer is a different part number. Is it significantly different in size such that it won't work? They aren't expensive, but I don't have one on hand at the moment. If the dimensions are known, I'd imagine you can find them local in a generic bin?

[Dangermouse]

You would think so wouldn't you?

I was in NAPA yesterday (who I consider a step up from the Autozones/PepBoys of the world) looking for crush washers and was directed to the wall of little drawers where their miscellaneous nuts and bolts are. No copper crush washers. The dude suggested a split washer instead !

I left.

[Ron]

Ace is the place around here.

[sdg3205]

Jonathan,

Get a GOOD ventilator mask if you're going to be using brake cleaner under your car. Also goggles and a gentle fan.

I spent days under 2510 removing the tar undercoating and found having a fan on low gently pushing the air out and the chemical grade ventilator mask were a must.

You may already be prepped with a mask but man, I leaned quickly.

The brake cleaner seems heavy and sits around you like vehicular chemical warfare.

[David T]

Thanks for the links and feedback. I read through the DML page on cleaning the filter and it looks pretty straightforward. Well, other than the getting it apart section, the cleaning steps, and the reassembly :) I'll know better once I get the pan off.

I did get poking around under the car yesterday on my creeper and yea, my face was quite close to the bottom of the car. Not the most calming scenario, but I did get some views of thigns I don't often get. Got to peer directly up and in to my fuel accumulator to see it seems to be in good shape since being replaced a couple seasons ago, I got to peer in and see my TABs (hands free at this point...), and I also got to look around to see that the shift computer wiring isn't hangin onto anything hot.

Good call whoever mentioned the oil sender light might be leaking. It is. Not much, but of course, it doesn't need to to still make a mess over time.

I can remove it when I do my oil change and replace the copper crush washer, but wondered if the ones we use for the oil drain plug would work?

I have a few of those and intend on using one for the transmission fluid drain plug as well since they are the same part number, but noticed the oil sender light copper washer is a different part number. Is it significantly different in size such that it won't work? They aren't expensive, but I don't have one on hand at the moment. If the dimensions are known, I'd imagine you can find them local in a generic bin?

If that sender is leaking (and it probably is!) you have to disassemble it and reassemble it using silicone sealer. If you are squeamish about taking it apart you can just buy a new one (they aren't that expensive). The copper washer is not where it leaks and you can reuse the old one with a little silicone sealer. The wire going to it is also probably crispy and you should replace that section with a higher temp insulated wire or slide a heat rated sleeve over it.
David Teitelbaum

[Jonathan]

If that sender is leaking (and it probably is!) you have to disassemble it and reassemble it using silicone sealer. If you are squeamish about taking it apart you can just buy a new one (they aren't that expensive). The copper washer is not where it leaks and you can reuse the old one with a little silicone sealer. The wire going to it is also probably crispy and you should replace that section with a higher temp insulated wire or slide a heat rated sleeve over it.
David Teitelbaum

Am I looking for anything in particular when I take it apart? To me it looks like if it leaks, it would have to be coming out via the threads of the end, i.e. the copper washer would seal this? Any other leaks would be internal and not make their way out?

http://store.delorean.com/p-6227-oil-pressure-sensor-light.aspx

Are you saying it would leak up through the middle and come out where the electrical connection is? In the store link, you can see a bit of the white coloured collar. Is it going to leak here?

When I look at mine still installed on the engine, it seems like the oil is coming from the area where it is threaded into the block. If this was a water treatment plug of some kind, I would wrap it in teflon tape and reinsert. I'll keep an eye out for some silicone sealer... any brand name suggestions? Canadian Tire??

Dave Graham... good call on the fumes from the brake cleaner. Earlier in the winter, I went at some grime on one of my rims and of course with it being cold outside, I kept the garage doors closed. Wow, do headaches come quick. That was the end of that clean up job for a couple months. When the directions on the can mention it evaporates and won't leave a residue, yada, yada, they aren't kidding. It's all in the air around you!

[David T]

It can leak at the block but they usually leak where the threaded post comes out. I take it all apart, clean it up real good with alcohol and reassemble using silicone sealer on all of the gaskets. It is a little tricky disassembling it but if you take your time it isn't all that bad. The worst part of the whole deal is when you remove the sender you get a LOT of oil with it so have a pan under the motor.
David Teitelbaum

[Jonathan]

Just a quick update on this...

The ATF change out is complete. I decided not to tackle the oil change at the same time after realizing how much the ATF job was not going to plan. I can see about the oil sender leak later on towards the end of the season.

The challenges weren't likely much more than just some things are pretty simple on your work bench and a whole different story in a cramped environment such as under your car. Getting your normal leverage on loosening things or tightening for that matter, are not so simple when you only can use the strength in your wrists or hands given the space to work in. I struggled mightily with the dipstick tube seal. I did not get the otterstat seal suggestion to go in as it just wouldn't slide into place for me. I went with the normal o-ring (x2). The lower bolt holding the bracket in place on the dipstick tube was another matter. Just a wee bit harder than I thought when you can't see what you are doing and are going by feel.

It doesn't matter now though, it's all in and back together and (fingers still crossed) it doesn't appear to be leaking anymore. I didn't get all the cleaning I wanted to do under there done, but considering my sanity was riding on it, I decided this was a "good enough" job for now.

I did get a good look at some areas on the car I don't normally get from above including the shift computer wiring routing, the TABs and my fuel filter.

The DML write-up I think it was which talked about cleaning the ATF filter mentioned how his car looked in there after 17,000 miles or so. Mine is a bit more than that (perhaps 25,000 miles) but similar vintage (Sept 81 build). The author mentioned wanting to know what other owners cars looked like, so with that in mind, here are a couple pictures of the area without the pan in place. My filter does not look to have ever been opened up and cleaned, or at least not put back together with this copper tubing method described. I would guess it is the original that came with the car. You can also see how far the dipstick tube protrudes into the pan, which I thought was a good perspective in terms of wondering where abouts the level is when you look at the end of the dipstick while measuring level.

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