DeLorean Car Fires ...Numbers, Causes and Fixes

[nkemp]

It seems that there is a disproportionate number of DeLoreans that have caught fire. Think about it, how many other cars can you name that have had fires or how often have you seen car fires on the side of the road? It is pretty rare. But that is not the reason for this topic so don't provide answers to those rhetorical questions.

This topic, or its potential spinoffs are meant to determine:

How many DeLorean car fires have happened (we need accounts and they need to identify if it is first hand info or second, third, fourth, etc)
What was the reason (as best can be determined):

Fuel

Engine compartment line ruptures
Fitting failures/leaks
Other


Electrical

Relay module failures
Wiring failures
Fuse block failures
Other


Probable user error ... a problem caused by the user/service person. These are problems worth noting but not inherently related to the car & its parts
Other TBD


Fixes... here we can identify the changes/upgrades/maintenance items that might reduce the probability of fires.


By tracking and highlighting problems, we can focus on prevention. If this was Detroit, they may be issuing recalls or TSB's. But, for all practical purposes, we are "Detroit" so this forum may be the best way to track problems and raise awareness.

Moderators - If this topic gets traction or is deemed worthwhile, maybe this should be a section by itself and then run multiple threads for the topics mentioned above instead of lumping replies haphazardly in this one topic. Maybe the high level topic is "Catastrophic Failures" and can be expanded to other topics such as TAB failures, frame rust through, ball joints, suspension components, steering loss & other.

[SS Spoiler]

I like your thinking Nick.

[virtualchuck]

I was thinking the same thing all day yesterday Nick. I had a couple of questions to get this started.

Would it be advantageous at all to install any sort of fuel shutoffs or some sort of fuel pressure relief inside the cabin? It sounds like from several stories there was smoke before fire, maybe dumping the fuel out of the engine compartment immediately would prevent a larger fire?

Has anyone looked into installing an automatic fire extinguishing device like this?
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/product.do?part=181026&engine=adwords!6456&keyword=product_ad&type=pla

Do SS fuel lines greatly prevent the likelihood of this happening? (I didn't wait to find out, I ordered a set this weekend!)

Chuck

[Jonathan]

I like what you're trying to do with this Nick. Similar thoughts have crossed my mind with TABs, LCAs, drivers torsion bars, etc.

I know you mentioned not answering the rhetorical questions... but I would like to add that the reason we often only see certain examples of things out there is that many of them don't get reported or pinned to Jalopnik. We don't often hear a detailed account of all the drives people take where their car didn't start on fire, and we don't often hear about a minivan or Honda Civic on fire on the side of the road either. These things do happen, but we can get fooled into thinking the frequency of such things is more or less than it actually is.

Not saying trying to track this isn't worthwhile, but until it is put beside comparable and complete data for other or all vehicles, it might not be that relevant.

There are a number of these sorts of cognitive bias subjects discussed in a new book called The Art of Thinking Clearly by Rolf Dobelli. Check it out if you have the means.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Thinking-Clearly-Rolf-Dobelli/dp/0062219685

[David T]

I like what you're trying to do with this Nick. Similar thoughts have crossed my mind with TABs, LCAs, drivers torsion bars, etc.

I know you mentioned not answering the rhetorical questions... but I would like to add that the reason we often only see certain examples of things out there is that many of them don't get reported or pinned to Jalopnik. We don't often hear a detailed account of all the drives people take where their car didn't start on fire, and we don't often hear about a minivan or Honda Civic on fire on the side of the road either. These things do happen, but we can get fooled into thinking the frequency of such things is more or less than it actually is.

Not saying trying to track this isn't worthwhile, but until it is put beside comparable and complete data for other or all vehicles, it might not be that relevant.

There are a number of these sorts of cognitive bias subjects discussed in a new book called The Art of Thinking Clearly by Rolf Dobelli. Check it out if you have the means.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Thinking-Clearly-Rolf-Dobelli/dp/0062219685

The fires boil down to one simple thing, a lack of routine maintenance. If you keep up with the car and do all of the updates the chances of catastrophic failure are very low. This covers the LCA's, TAB's, fires, cooling system failure, etc. Fires are either caused by fuel or electrical. There can be NO fuel leaks. Update the electrical system and inspect it at least yearly. If you do, the fire extinguisher is there as a last resort or for someone else's fire!

[nkemp]

...but until it is put beside comparable and complete data for other or all vehicles, it might not be that relevant...

If 3 2001 - 2003 Corstangs or Musvettes start on fire, it may not be significant given the numbers on the road. But if there are 3 DMC-12 fires amongst the estimated 2,500 running, 6,500 in existence (both estimates) I would argue that it is significant/relevant. Also, as our labors of love age characteristics may develop that we need to track and manage. As such I look at how the numbers play out amongst DMC-12's and not against similar era cars.

The fun part of statistics is that even though you may have only a .000001% chance of xxx it is a big deal to the person it happens to. As such, some of us may want to take the preventative approach (like the recent Toby TAB's sold on eBay for over $700 ... He wanted the comfort of knowing that his TAB bolts were as good as can be).

BTW .. I'm a firm believer that if you put enough monkeys on enough keyboards one will accidentally type "Hamlet" (or more to the theme herein, a "DeLorean Service Manual")

[DeLorean03]

So let's break this down a bit. One of the key things to remember is we still don't know what the source of the fire on Darryl's car even was yet.

Fuel system: obviously the greatest source will be 32 year old fuel lines - whether it be the integrity of the fuel lines or the ends where the fittings and banjo bolts connect. Also important is making sure the fuel lines are torqued to proper spec. Honestly, 32 year old fuel lines is an accident waiting to happen. Also important are the insert adapters that connect the metal fuel lines from underneath the car to the flexible fuel lines in the engine bay. Lastly, all copper washers should be replaced if the fuel lines are taken off the car (say for a VOD cleaning). I'm sure there are other causes for concern with the fuel system - these are just my thoughts.

As for electrical, the biggies are changing the fuses once a year and making sure your relays are new(er) as well as your circuit breakers. Definitely good to do anything you can to reduce the load on the electrical system (low amperage fans, install LEDs in place of incads, change to a newer fuel pump to reduce the current draw on it, etc), and check things periodically. Every once in a while, I have my car running and check the power wires in the electrical compartment - see if they are "warm" or are they "hot to the touch." Anywhere there's a loose connection or heavy resistance, there can/will be heat.

I'm sure more will chime in with greater details as time goes along.

[Dangermouse]

If 3 2001 - 2003 Corstangs or Musvettes start on fire, it may not be significant given the numbers on the road. But if there are 3 DMC-12 fires amongst the estimated 2,500 running, 6,500 in existence (both estimates) I would argue that it is significant/relevant.
)

If you look at recent internet reports, modern day Ferraris are almost expected to self immolate

[nkemp]

The fires boil down to one simple thing, a lack of routine maintenance. If you keep up with the car and do all of the updates the chances of catastrophic failure are very low. This covers the LCA's, TAB's, fires, cooling system failure, etc. Fires are either caused by fuel or electrical. There can be NO fuel leaks. Update the electrical system and inspect it at least yearly. If you do, the fire extinguisher is there as a last resort or for someone else's fire!

David, I agree wholeheartedly. What I think we can do herein is to create a resource that includes what, where and what to look for while doing the inspection/maintenance. For many that resource may not be valuable because of their car maintenance skills. But I believe that for most there would be benefit to identifying the problem areas and detailing an inspection & maintenance process highly focused on catastrophic failure items.

For example, if we found that a certain component fails due to heat fatigue and when it does it causes fires, then documenting that, documenting what to look for, having a maintenance alternative and maybe having a maintenance schedule is beneficial to owners at all maintenance skills (those that have one tool, the credit card to those who do their own wrenching).

As I said in the opening post "It seems that there is a disproportionate number of DeLoreans that have caught fire." And that is fixable.

[Dangermouse]

OK, here’s the ones I know about.

Only a few have causes, but maybe others can chime in with any known details.

02613 – Farrar’s car. 2008 – electrical fire, repaired

04117 – Kozmatics car in 2009 – electrical fire. Insurance write-off and then rebuilt

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=22166&d=1380041868

04510 – on copart.com last year – cause unknown

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=22163&d=1380041679

05538 - Knoxville TN - cause unknown

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=22164&d=1380041680

05898 – Darryl’s car in 2013 – cause as yet unknown

07018 – cause unknown – later scrapped

10458 – cause unknown. Exported to England and rebuilt

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=22165&d=1344482259

11289 – Josh H car. Cause unknown


Also

01909 was destroyed by fire on that car transporter fire in 2011.
07134 was destroyed by wildfires in TX in 2011.

Both included for completeness in the “DeLorean fire” category, but hardly relevant to the discussion

[Rich W]

<snip>
But if there are 3 DMC-12 fires amongst the estimated 2,500 running, 6,500 in existence (both estimates) I would argue that it is significant/relevant. Also, as our labors of love age characteristics may develop that we need to track and manage. As such I look at how the numbers play out amongst DMC-12's and not against similar era cars.

The fun part of statistics is that even though you may have only a .000001% chance of xxx it is a big deal to the person it happens to.
<snip>

As long as statistics have been mentioned here, I would like to note the 6,500 DeLoreans in existence quote is most likely a DeLorean myth
that will one day be true, but I think we are still a ways away from that day. I did a little statistical analysis with Knut around DCS 2006,
with the [6,500] number already in regular use since DCS 2000, and IIRC, based on an unkown actual amount of DeLoreans built, but using
some of the "best" estimated build numbers, Knut and I came up with estimates between 7,200 and 7,500 DeLoreans still in existence.

Even if you use the low end of the estimates, and you account for a dozen or so complete losses per year since 2006 (less is more likely),
it is more likely there are still well over 7,000 DeLoreans still in existence. Again, even our work was based on estimates, and I personally
believe there were much less losses than the 50-100 cars per year, for the first few years, gradually tapering off throughout the 1980's
and 1990's, so just looking at the numbers (and the multiple estimates) there may be well over 7,500 DeLoreans still in existence.

Within the last decade or so, there has been at least as many "part-outs" as there has been total losses due to collisions and fire damage,
so the numbers are decreasing, but statistically speaking, it may be a while before we actually reach the 6,500 car estimate, in the future.

[ALEXAKOS]

Vin Unknown,
http://static1.carsablanca.de/files/medias/filename/100_4343_6034_story.jpg?1280329676
Car was imported from Qatar to Germany in 1987.
Owner invested over 20.000 Euros in restoration in 2001 to 2006.
During a summer drive, white smoke came out of the vents. He turned the ac off. After a minute the car started loosing power. He pulls over, opens engine compartment and flames fly out.
Uses floor mats to kill the flames. Car burns on for 3 hours even with fire Dpt help.
At first nobody stops for help with extinguisher, they were to scared it would explode... (DAMN MOVIES!) Then 50+ people stop to take photos and videos.... Nobody is afraid the car will explode any more:screwy:

Actual cause never found.

[David T]

Fuel fires most generally occur soon after a service. A banjo bolt breaks or is not tight enough, a crush washer is missing, a hose was bent, stretched, or kinked. In many cases there is a smell of fuel which goes ignored. Because of the higher pressures used in the K-Jet a tiny leak can be invisible because the fuel atomizes as soon as it leaks out. With a spark or a hot source it becomes a blowtorch. Typically a fire in the engine compartment is a fuel fire, not electrical, at least in the beginning. Electrical fires most commonly originate in the fuseblock area behind the passenger seat. The two most troublesome circuits are for the cooling fans and the fuel pump. There is usually some warning. There will be an odor and if you look there will be visual signs of overheating, discolored insulation or melted plastic. Regular inspection and upgrading the relays and circuit breakers can prevent any electrical fire. The other big problem area is the headlight switch but it usually just melts, not burns.
I do not see any reason to obsess over fire per se. The car is also subject to mechanical failure and that is much more likely. The answer to ALL of the problems is good upkeep, regular maintenance and inspections. As an example, if you drive on 10 year old tires you can expect them to fail! If you drive on new tires but never check the air pressure and you have a slow leak you can expect problems.
Regular inspection is the key. The big caveat is of course, you have to know what you are looking at and be able to spot a problem before it causes trouble. That is where experience becomes so important. Watch when you take the car for a Tech inspection. Most clubs have a tech session once a year. See what the Tech is doing and what he points out.

[DrJeff]

This thread (or a new thread/sub-topic) related to preventing fires or catastrophic failure in Deloreans is a great idea. If the goal of the discussion of causes is to get to a specific list of checks, parts, changes to the design, etc., then I believe we'll need to get as close as possible to specific causes (as opposed to the "it's usually fuel or electrical"). We'd need to get to the "wire X runs past sharp edge at position Y" level of detail if we're going to develop a set of preventative actions that go beyond "be careful and check everything". (Rather like the "place a split rubber hose between the rear door brackets and the torsion bar" type of guidance.)

Since the occurrences of fires is relatively infrequent and has the tendency to destroy the obvious evidence in the process, I think for fires we are going to have to list and rate the risk from 'likely failure points'. We might start by listing out the sources of risk (which is started, fuel lines - age and heat stress, electric wire runs, etc.) and then look for the places on the car where these occur (e.g. fuel lines in the engine bay, points of greatest heat stress or pressure in the lines, etc). Thought... any evidence of fire risk when the flexible fuel hoses go at the fuel tank?

"Thankfully" for physical breaks, like TAB failures or lower ball joints, there is a better chance of determining the cause, and thus working towards the corrective measures.

[DMCMW Dave]

The typical fuel line break in the engine compartment is at the end of one of the Teflon lines where it has been pressed onto the banjo fitting.

The most common one to break is the one to the cold start valve. I'm not sure why, but we sell that as a stand-alone replacement line much more often than any others. My pet theory is that is one that is more commonly twisted during removal and installation, and has a bit of force on it when installed (i.e. it is not formed exactly to where it goes). It is also the ONLY one of the small lines that is under full line pressure all the time.

A full set of stainless lines is a good idea.

BTW - we (and DMC Affiliates) do stock and sell that line by itself, and a whole set as well. It is braided stainless with a black outer jacket.

http://store.delorean.com/p-10631-braided-stainless-fuel-injection-line-set.aspx . Ignore the photo.

[Mark D]

The most common one to break is the one to the cold start valve.

This was the exact line that was broken on my car (on the fuel distributor end of the hose.) The symptom that lead me to investigate was leaking fuel on top of the fuel distributor. The break in the line wasn't noticeable until I peeled back the rubber jacket and saw the hose was cracked towards the end near the banjo fitting. The crack was in the lengthwise direction of the hose, similar to how a drinking straw would commonly split. The rubber outer jacket was all that was holding back the fuel from spraying everywhere.

[djdogbone]

Can that auto fire extinguisher really work in a DMC- it looks like a great idea! But, it goes off at 175 degrees. Is that too low for the engine compartment?

[nkemp]

OK, here’s the ones I know about.

Only a few have causes, but maybe others can chime in with any known details.

Thanks for providing. Depressing but relevant. Hopefully those owners will chime in here.


This thread (or a new thread/sub-topic) related to preventing fires or catastrophic failure in Deloreans is a great idea. If the goal of the discussion of causes is to get to a specific list of checks, parts, changes to the design, etc., then I believe we'll need to get as close as possible to specific causes (as opposed to the "it's usually fuel or electrical"). We'd need to get to the "wire X runs past sharp edge at position Y" level of detail if we're going to develop a set of preventative actions that go beyond "be careful and check everything". (Rather like the "place a split rubber hose between the rear door brackets and the torsion bar" type of guidance.)

Since the occurrences of fires is relatively infrequent and has the tendency to destroy the obvious evidence in the process, I think for fires we are going to have to list and rate the risk from 'likely failure points'. We might start by listing out the sources of risk (which is started, fuel lines - age and heat stress, electric wire runs, etc.) and then look for the places on the car where these occur (e.g. fuel lines in the engine bay, points of greatest heat stress or pressure in the lines, etc). Thought... any evidence of fire risk when the flexible fuel hoses go at the fuel tank?

"Thankfully" for physical breaks, like TAB failures or lower ball joints, there is a better chance of determining the cause, and thus working towards the corrective measures.

DrJeff ...This is exactly what we need to do herein.


... "it's usually fuel or electrical"). ...

Generally these type comments come 2nd, 3rd, 4th ... hand. What we need is 1st hand accounts. The problems with fires is that they tend to destroy evidence. To compensate it would be great if the owners of the cars mentioned above could comment on what they may have done hours, days, weeks before the fire. Or if they did nothing maybe they could provide other clues they observed before the event. One occurrence of something may be coincidence. Two is starting a trend and three gets you well on your way. So any clues may become more helpful over time.

Also, if owners were aware of an effort to collect failure data, maybe more would take a critical look (photo) after the event and document it.


The typical fuel line break in the engine compartment is at the end of one of the Teflon lines where it has been pressed onto the banjo fitting.

The most common one to break is the one to the cold start valve. I'm not sure why, but we sell that as a stand-alone replacement line much more often than any others. My pet theory is that is one that is more commonly twisted during removal and installation, and has a bit of force on it when installed (i.e. it is not formed exactly to where it goes). It is also the ONLY one of the small lines that is under full line pressure all the time.

A full set of stainless lines is a good idea.

BTW - we (and DMC Affiliates) do stock and sell that line by itself, and a whole set as well. It is braided stainless with a black outer jacket.

http://store.delorean.com/p-10631-braided-stainless-fuel-injection-line-set.aspx . Ignore the photo.

Dave, good input! The original lines are 30+ years old. Gas formulations have changed a lot, plastic type materials don't last forever, the engine heat is not keeping them young. And yes, heavy handed manipulation by all sorts of "mechanics".

[nkemp]

Can that auto fire extinguisher really work in a DMC- it looks like a great idea! But, it goes off at 175 degrees. Is that too low for the engine compartment?

The opposite may also be a problem... is that too high? There is a lot more air movement in our engine compartment than a boat engine compartment. Thus air temp may not reach 175 until it is well on its way to destruction.

[David T]

The opposite may also be a problem... is that too high? There is a lot more air movement in our engine compartment than a boat engine compartment. Thus air temp may not reach 175 until it is well on its way to destruction.

If you are that worried about fire you can install a fire suppression system such as they have in race cars. They are not meant to save the car though. The main purpose is to buy the driver some extra time to get out. With proper care and maintenance Deloreans are no more prone to fire than any other fuel injected car. Keep a fire extinguisher handy and make sure your insurance has the car well covered and is paid up. The hoses are no more prone to fire and leakage if they are well treated. In fact, the original hoses are better than some of the replacement ones some venders sell!

[Jonathan]

If you are that worried about fire you can install a fire suppression system such as they have in race cars. They are not meant to save the car though. The main purpose is to buy the driver some extra time to get out. With proper care and maintenance Deloreans are no more prone to fire than any other fuel injected car. Keep a fire extinguisher handy and make sure your insurance has the car well covered and is paid up. The hoses are no more prone to fire and leakage if they are well treated. In fact, the original hoses are better than some of the replacement ones some venders sell!

I ask here genuinely, not in any way trying to be a pain... how do you use a fire extinguisher on a DeLorean engine?

And what I mean is not how to use a fire extinguisher in general... I mean, how do you put out a fire when you likely have both the louvres and lower engine cover in the way? It's not something any of us would want to practice, but sort of like how you rehearse an escape plan with your family in your home, I'd like to have some ideas on what to do in an emergency. Most all of us don't think well when you get panicky, and if I was on the highway and the car started on fire, I don't give myself credit for being able to stay super calm.

Do you think it would be effective to spray a fire extinguisher down through the louvres and engine cover? How about just the engine cover? If the fire wasn't already out of control by the time I was stopped and out of the car with extinguisher in hand, run behind the car and lift up the louvres, I'm not sure I have time to safely pull the lower cover release and then pull up on it without endangering myself big time.

I think the preference would be spray the fire as is, but I doubt that would get to all the hot spots adequately. If I'm not mistaken, fire crews coming upon a car fire on the highway swing some sort of big axe/hose attachment that punctures a huge hole through the hood and then all in one motion sprays out the tip of it. These guys aren't trying to save the car, they are trying to ensure the lives are saved of anyone around.

Isn't one of the comments that a fire extinguisher in your car is for saving someone else's car? I don't know that I understand what this means though?

Thoughts??

[nkemp]

With proper care and maintenance Deloreans are no more prone to fire than any other fuel injected car.

How does one know what quality of "care and maintenance" the PO (PO's) provided? What is the standard of care? Obviously if the system is taken apart you should use new crush washers, avoid improper routing (tight bends, wear points and hot points) and proper torque. But given that how long will the original components last?


In fact, the original hoses are better than some of the replacement ones some venders sell!

Details! What details can you provide to back up that statement?

[Dangermouse]

I ask here genuinely, not in any way trying to be a pain... how do you use a fire extinguisher on a DeLorean engine?

Thoughts??

I guess along with a FE we should carry some sort of pry bar. As you get out of the car, you should be able to release the engine cover from the cabin. But if the fire is licking around the catch you would need a bar to lift it up.

The other alternative would be to aim the extinguisher from underneath the bumper upwards towards the engine, which sounds easy sitting here in my armchair.

[thirdmanj]

How does one know what quality of "care and maintenance" the PO (PO's) provided? What is the standard of care? Obviously if the system is taken apart you should use new crush washers, avoid improper routing (tight bends, wear points and hot points) and proper torque. But given that how long will the original components last?



Details! What details can you provide to back up that statement?

All good questions. So many facets to these cars that make them unpredictable. Really, there's very little practical documented history where these cars are concerned. They just weren't around long enough. So much of what we learn about them is through errors, or vendors and owners tribal knowledge. Not like there's a Chilton's manual for them, and I think we can all agree the factory manual is a joke.

[Notifier]

I looked into installing a fixed suppression system a little over a year ago. Didn’t get very far with it but recent events have me looking into it again. The big advantage of this type of system would be to buy you time. Time to get out of the car, get your portable extinguisher ready, time to open up the louvers and lower engine cover. If the fixed system puts the fire out, consider it a bonus! The system I am looking at is manual operation (you have to activate the system opposed to waiting for temperature) and consists of a remote bottle, tubing, two nozzles, and a activation handle. As someone pointed out, these are designed originally for occupant protection, and may be limited for their effectiveness on an engine fire. But again, the point is to buy time. It looks like there are two types of systems, a foam based (AFFF) or a “clean agent” (Halon or FE-36). Each will have their advantages and disadvantages – cleanup after activation (either accidental or intentional), effectiveness of the agent (Halon or FE-36 will quickly disperse in the open air environment of the engine compartment), and overall size (the AFFF bottles look much large than the Halon or FE-36). The bottle would have to be installed in the luggage compartment, running the tubing through the passenger compartment, then into the engine compartment.

But even with a system like this, a portable extinguisher is a must. Looking at the ratings, most of us probably have a small 2 1/2lb (hopefully ABC) type extinguisher. I would recommend two – the 2 1/2lb in the passenger compartment and a larger 5lb in the luggage compartment. The passenger compartment being for your “first strike”, the luggage compartment for a backup. Just based on the raw ratings: The smaller extinguisher will probably be rated “1A:10BC”, which give you the equivalent of 1.25 gallons of water and will cover 20 square feet. The larger extinguisher will probably be rated “3A:40BC”, which will give you the equivalent of 3.75 gallons of water and will cover 40 square feet. Notice what just doubling the size of your extinguisher can do! I would recommend a good quality extinguisher, look for metal handles and valves, and of course make sure they are ABC type (a lot of smaller ones may only be rated “BC”). Keep up on the dates: Disposable extinguishers are good for 12 years – after that, throw it out and buy a new one. Rechargeable types need to be serviced every 6 years.

[jmettee]

IMO, best "fix" you can do beyond simple maintenance is to have both a portable fire extinguisher AND a battery shutoff switch that you can reach from the driver's seat. Simply put, if you have smoke or a fire, killing the battery will kill the fuel system & also all electrical problems. A simple switch can be thrown to remove all fire sources & then you are left with trying to douse the existing flames.

[Jonathan]

IMO, best "fix" you can do beyond simple maintenance is to have both a portable fire extinguisher AND a battery shutoff switch that you can reach from the driver's seat. Simply put, if you have smoke or a fire, killing the battery will kill the fuel system & also all electrical problems. A simple switch can be thrown to remove all fire sources & then you are left with trying to douse the existing flames.

I like this Justin. I put a battery shut off switch in my car soon after I got it, but it is not even close to something I could do easily or quickly from the driver's seat. It is one of the ones that attaches to the ground post and then your ground wire cable attaches to the other end of it and the knob/screw in the middle is what you remove to kill the power. It is quite tucked in there on the negative terminal and it's not very accessible in a hurry to get it disconnected.

Are there suggestions of recommendations out there to do a remote shut off switch, say mounted somewhere behind the driver's seat where you can just turn and hit it? I thought I saw one at some point where it ended up being a button/switch protruding through the battery cover door and carpet and you would basically just reach behind the passenger seat, whack it/turn it/whatever and you're done. No fumbling. Are these sold somewhere?

[uhhair]

Saying the cause of a Delorean fire is either "fuel" or "electrical" really is no help. What else on the car is going to cause the fire after those two? If any 1st hand owners of Delorean car fires can/want to post, please be as specific as possible ("Torn fuel line on top of k-jet, etc"). If you can't be more specific or the cause was undetermined, that's fine, but just saying those two doesn't really add much insight to any underlying problems or causes. Just putting this out there to try and gather good information.

[uhhair]

I like this Justin. I put a battery shut off switch in my car soon after I got it, but it is not even close to something I could do easily or quickly from the driver's seat. It is one of the ones that attaches to the ground post and then your ground wire cable attaches to the other end of it and the knob/screw in the middle is what you remove to kill the power. It is quite tucked in there on the negative terminal and it's not very accessible in a hurry to get it disconnected.

Are there suggestions of recommendations out there to do a remote shut off switch, say mounted somewhere behind the driver's seat where you can just turn and hit it? I thought I saw one at some point where it ended up being a button/switch protruding through the battery cover door and carpet and you would basically just reach behind the passenger seat, whack it/turn it/whatever and you're done. No fumbling. Are these sold somewhere?

My car has one, it's installed right behind the passenger seat. PO put a hole in the plastic battery cover compartment to mount the cut off switch. When the seat is back you can't even see it. They sell them all over, just type it into amazon and you'll find plenty of them. I don't think you need a heavy duty one or anything for our cars.

[Notifier]

I like this Justin. I put a battery shut off switch in my car soon after I got it, but it is not even close to something I could do easily or quickly from the driver's seat. It is one of the ones that attaches to the ground post and then your ground wire cable attaches to the other end of it and the knob/screw in the middle is what you remove to kill the power. It is quite tucked in there on the negative terminal and it's not very accessible in a hurry to get it disconnected.

Are there suggestions of recommendations out there to do a remote shut off switch, say mounted somewhere behind the driver's seat where you can just turn and hit it? I thought I saw one at some point where it ended up being a button/switch protruding through the battery cover door and carpet and you would basically just reach behind the passenger seat, whack it/turn it/whatever and you're done. No fumbling. Are these sold somewhere?

I did install the remote battery cutoff switch from DMC-NW and love it. I decided to not use the supplied toggle switch and picked up a couple of red and green lighted pushbuttons. It is mounted to the rear sidewall (where the rear driver side speaker is) right above my left shoulder. It lights up whenever the drivers door is opened, regardless of if the battery is on or off. The only things that have power with the battery off are the radio memory wire (and by default the cigarette lighter because it's on the same circuit) and the battery cutoff switch lighting. And those are protected by a fuse directly off the battery. I'll post a picture of the switch when I get home tonight.

[DMCMW Dave]

I like this Justin. I put a battery shut off switch in my car soon after I got it, but it is not even close to something I could do easily or quickly from the driver's seat. It is one of the ones that attaches to the ground post and then your ground wire cable attaches to the other end of it and the knob/screw in the middle is what you remove to kill the power. It is quite tucked in there on the negative terminal and it's not very accessible in a hurry to get it disconnected.

Are there suggestions of recommendations out there to do a remote shut off switch, say mounted somewhere behind the driver's seat where you can just turn and hit it? I thought I saw one at some point where it ended up being a button/switch protruding through the battery cover door and carpet and you would basically just reach behind the passenger seat, whack it/turn it/whatever and you're done. No fumbling. Are these sold somewhere?

Put it on the positive lead. The instructions probably said the negative for safety reasons, but with the battery enclosed in a plastic compartment it's probably not a factor.

We see quite a few marine-type rotary switched mounted via a hole in the wood deck or the plastic compartment cover.

[Notifier]

The remote switch for my battery cutoff switch:
22221

[Farrar]

I ask here genuinely, not in any way trying to be a pain... how do you use a fire extinguisher on a DeLorean engine? ...

The top of a flame is actually cooler than the temperature of a hot valve cover on a running engine. You know how you can pass your hand over the top of a burning candle without suffering damage if you do it quickly enough? When I opened the louvres and engine cover on my car, the flames were licking around, but the wind was blowing them every which way. I'm sure one or two blew across my hand, but it was only there for an instant. (And the hair on my knuckles grew back after a while. ;) )

[nkemp]

Farrar, what do you think caused your fire?

[Farrar]

Farrar, what do you think caused your fire?

It looks like it started at the distributor cap. From there it spread to the spark plug wire insulation, air filter lid, air filter, etc. But I'm still not sure what caused it -- maybe a defective distributor cap, but there was almost nothing left of it by the time I sprayed the fire out so I couldn't check for cracks or anything. The distributor was still turning. My engine did not lose its ground and I didn't see any other electrical problems. So it's still a mystery. Nonetheless, just to be safe, 2613's engine now has two grounds to the frame.

[thirdmanj]

Farrar, what do you think caused your fire?

K-Jet.

[nkemp]

As they say, a fire needs 3 things - energy, fuel and oxygen. There is plenty of oxygen and the distributor would of provided the energy via the spark/arcing in the cap. Fuel? Must have been a line leak/break. But where and why?

[Farrar]

K-Jet.

Negative -- this was after the carburetor conversion.

(Consequently, I was in a hurry to put out the fire: as the air filter lid was burning from the top down, it was reaching closer to the fuel bowl, which was filled with gasoline.)

[Farrar]

Fuel? Must have been a line leak/break. But where and why?

Not all that burns is gasoline.

[thirdmanj]

Negative -- this was after the carburetor conversion.

Really?! :hysterical:

Ahem *cough cough* I mean, interesting...

[Farrar]

Really?! :hysterical:

Ahem *cough cough* I mean, interesting...

Wow, you're a really nice guy. When your car catches fire, I'll be sure to laugh at you.

[DeLorean03]

:popcorn:

[thirdmanj]

Wow, you're a really nice guy. When your car catches fire, I'll be sure to laugh at you.

:D No, no. Not funny your car caught fire. Funny that it happened post K-Jet. Here I was thinking "what a great opportunity for a stab at K-Jet. :lol: sorry for the confusion.

[AirmanPika]

I set my DeLorean on fire once. This was 100% user error. I forgot to tighten one of the fuel line bolts all the way. Sprayed gas all over the engine. I let it sit for a few hours which I THOUGHT would take care of any evaporation. This was wrong. Engine burst into flames. I had a extinguisher handy so the extent was a few melted hoses and my pride. Needless to say, if you spray gas in the engine, wait a good day before trying to fire it back up minimum.

[kings1527]

I guess along with a FE we should carry some sort of pry bar. As you get out of the car, you should be able to release the engine cover from the cabin. But if the fire is licking around the catch you would need a bar to lift it up.

The other alternative would be to aim the extinguisher from underneath the bumper upwards towards the engine, which sounds easy sitting here in my armchair.

Coming from someone who's in the firefighting biz, you'll have time to open everything up if you catch everything early enough. Significant time, actually. Enough time to get out of your car, take your extinguisher out, open the louvers, and then open the engine compartment cover. The engine cover cable shouldn't be compromised at all. And the circumstances I'm referring to would be if you were driving and all this started. Not if you parked your care and came out to find it fully involved in flames. How much time? I'd go with 30-45 sec before it really gets going. I've been on some real BBQs before post-fire where the cable was still intact for the hood but we couldn't open it because of other damage.


I set my DeLorean on fire once. This was 100% user error. I forgot to tighten one of the fuel line bolts all the way. Sprayed gas all over the engine. I let it sit for a few hours which I THOUGHT would take care of any evaporation. This was wrong. Engine burst into flames. I had a extinguisher handy so the extent was a few melted hoses and my pride. Needless to say, if you spray gas in the engine, wait a good day before trying to fire it back up minimum.

I'd go with a BC rated extinguisher for the car. That way, you won't have a bunch of dry chemical residue left over if you have to use it. A BC extinguisher would be perfect for engine compartment fires, but you can get them to work on small interior incidents, too. They're not the best for ordinary combustibles because BC extinguishers don't have smothering or cooling properties, which is what puts out ordinary combustibles. But you can still get them to work for interior stuff, to a certain degree. It's just not incredibly efficient.

[Jonathan]

Love that battery cutoff switch Notifier. Almost looks like the green light/red light thingy when going through customs in a Mexican airport.

I asked some FB friends for their advice as well. A couple guys are fire fighters and some are DeLorean owners. At least one I know is both and he also chimed in about adding oxygen to the fire not being good. I know we've mentioned the timing part about whether you catch it quick, yet this could be very tricky to get right. Consequences not being very nice if you guessed wrong. He suggested prying up one corner of the lower cover, and as Dermot mentioned, you'd need to have something to pry with to do that. Still not sure how I would handle it if it happened to me and hoping it never does.

Perhaps it would be worthwhile to add to the list made in the first page or so of posts, whether these vehicles had stock set-ups in the engine bay or not. Not talking about an upgraded coolant bottle of course, but whether they had the 3.0 swap or some other engine, or were carburated. And not for the purposes of being able to say one is better/safer than the other, just for the sake of trying to put some consistencies together. The last two mentioned here weren't stock set-ups, and as Josh in Sask has asked about whether something was too close or not, would be really good to find out for these owners if there is something leading to this that they don't realize.

[kings1527]

I asked some FB friends for their advice as well. A couple guys are fire fighters and some are DeLorean owners. At least one I know is both and he also chimed in about adding oxygen to the fire not being good. I know we've mentioned the timing part about whether you catch it quick, yet this could be very tricky to get right. Consequences not being very nice if you guessed wrong. He suggested prying up one corner of the lower cover, and as Dermot mentioned, you'd need to have something to pry with to do that. Still not sure how I would handle it if it happened to me and hoping it never does.



The only realistic scenario where you're not going to have time is if you're not there when the fire starts. An engine compartment fire, or even a fire in the interior, isn't going to turn into a fireball within the blink of an eye. Particularly if you shut the car's fuel system down. That'll help. If you're relegated to having to pry open the cover because the cable's been burned out in order to hit the engine compartment with an extinguisher, you have a much bigger fire and problem on your hands than any average sized auto extinguisher is going to put out. Especially with a non-professional. In fact, you're not even going to be able to pry it open because there will be too much fire, heat, and/or smoke for you to get close enough and work it open at that point.

If you've been driving in your car, notice a fire, pull over and can't open the compartment because the cable's gone, that fire's been going a looooooong time. Plus, your belts would be fried before that engine compartment cable and you'd notice that first. Aside from the fact that your car would've looked like the Hindenburg for the past few minutes!

Like everyone's saying, it's all about having good work done and maintenance.

[kings1527]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t8IThvgHAg

Here's a decent video that shows you how long it typically takes to get an interior going. Obviously, if you're in the car you'll know about it quickly. Engine compartment can be different if the fuel system is still going but you'll still have time.


Here's another one of an interior:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npgMweaivpE

:30 - the giggly, cute little firefighter girl finished lighting the car
:50 - smoke is barely visible
1:05 - flames are visible
1:33 - the interior 'flashes' and is now completely involved

If you're in your car, you definitely know you have a problem in the first 20 seconds and you've got about another 20-30 seconds after that to make something happen before things get out of hand. Maybe even more time. I'm guessing they stoked the interior with combustibles to get it to go. The first video above shows how long it can take.

I can't find a good video for an example on an engine compartment fire.

[Jonathan]

Thanks for the info Alex. I reread the comments I received and I think the thoughts got misunderstood. It wasn't so much a suggestion of not being able to lift the lower engine cover as it was one for not wanting to lift the lower engine cover. This was related to not giving a fire unlimited access to new oxygen. That's where the "pry the corner of the cover" thought came from. You're right about catching it early enough and you should be good. The part that worries me is not knowing exactly what you're about to have happen the minute you open the lid. Could be nothing or it could be a lot worse than nothing. I think the uncertainty of it all and each one of these occurences being unique from the one before it might limit how many hard fast rules of thumb we can come up with and apply to all.

EDIT: You know, on second thought, I take some of that back. I watched the above videos where for the interior fires it looks like you have 1 minute or less before it is well past the point where your portable fire extinguisher is going to help. I don't agree with this idea that you should have time to deal with it. I think if you were to start adding up the seconds of when it first starts, and then you notice it, and then you slow down and get safely off to the side of the highway, and then throw it in park, get your seatbelt off, maybe help your passenger get theirs off, get your door open as well as your passengers, get out with possibly your phone or wallet in hand if they weren't in your pocket, grab the fire extinguisher from wherever it is you mounted it, then get around back to lift the louvres and/or engine cover if you so choose, and then spray your couple of pounds of extinguishing material on the fire... you'll have much less time than you think. Not to mention this whole time you haven't panicked and taken something like your seatbelt or door handle release 1 second job and made it 10 seconds. None of us behave well under this sort of pressure or circumstances. If you're saying we have 60 seconds from start to finish, my vote would be you get out and away from the car and that's it.

[nkemp]

Many new boats have a "fire port" to the engine compartment... a hole to the engine compartment. Rather than open the engine compartment cover, you insert the fire extinguisher hose into the port and it floods the engine bay with whatever you are spraying. This avoids a flareup as you open the cover.

Not sure how this applies to the D. One option may be to spray from under the car if it is not advisable to open the cover. YFSCMV (Your Fire Suppression Capabilities May Vary)

[kings1527]

Thanks for the info Alex. I reread the comments I received and I think the thoughts got misunderstood. It wasn't so much a suggestion of not being able to lift the lower engine cover as it was one for not wanting to lift the lower engine cover. This was related to not giving a fire unlimited access to new oxygen. That's where the "pry the corner of the cover" thought came from. You're right about catching it early enough and you should be good. The part that worries me is not knowing exactly what you're about to have happen the minute you open the lid. Could be nothing or it could be a lot worse than nothing. I think the uncertainty of it all and each one of these occurences being unique from the one before it might limit how many hard fast rules of thumb we can come up with and apply to all.

EDIT: You know, on second thought, I take some of that back. I watched the above videos where for the interior fires it looks like you have 1 minute or less before it is well past the point where your portable fire extinguisher is going to help. I don't agree with this idea that you should have time to deal with it. I think if you were to start adding up the seconds of when it first starts, and then you notice it, and then you slow down and get safely off to the side of the highway, and then throw it in park, get your seatbelt off, maybe help your passenger get theirs off, get your door open as well as your passengers, get out with possibly your phone or wallet in hand if they weren't in your pocket, grab the fire extinguisher from wherever it is you mounted it, then get around back to lift the louvres and/or engine cover if you so choose, and then spray your couple of pounds of extinguishing material on the fire... you'll have much less time than you think. Not to mention this whole time you haven't panicked and taken something like your seatbelt or door handle release 1 second job and made it 10 seconds. None of us behave well under this sort of pressure or circumstances. If you're saying we have 60 seconds from start to finish, my vote would be you get out and away from the car and that's it.

I see. I completely agree with the notion of lifting the engine compartment and introducing more oxygen, feeding the fire. That definitely does happen and can be dangerous if you're not ready for it. I know what you're saying about having less time than you think, particularly with the second video. But on the second video, I'd bet a set of brand new Toby Tabs that they had extra materials in the back seat to get it to go that quickly. The more I watch it, the more I believe that. Even cars of yesterday didn't have interiors made of woven gun powder, which is kind of what that second video looks like. The first video is more realistic of the time it takes for it to get going.

A friend of mine is a fire investigator and about 10 years ago he went to a class much like in the videos. He said they were working with cars of around 1990 vintage and told me that it was near impossible to get the car to catch simply by throwing flares in the back seat.

The decision to intervene is definitely an individual one and you're absolutely right, time can add up quickly. It the beginning, the biggest deterrent will be smoke and I think some would be surprised how quickly decisions can change solely based on that.

[OverlandMan]

My car (engine) caught fire today. It appears to be fuel system related but I haven't torn into it completely yet to verify. I was very fortunate and it last maybe 30 seconds. There was no noticeable damage other than a couple of spark plug wires. The location was at cylinder 4. It was very close to the idle/low speed regulator. I'm hoping this isn't damaged cause it appears to be an expensive replacement part.

I posted a thread about it here: http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?8270-Close-call-today&p=121580#post121580

I'm already putting together a list of replacement parts so I can replace all the fuel injection lines, seals, washers, etc.