Car got Stuck in gear and feint burning smell - towed it to the shop. Ideas?

[papanoel]

So I was out with my father today in the car in Brooklyn and he was noticing it was getting a little difficult to change gears. we were on a small narrorw side street and then he said the clutch had very little resistance and could not get it the car out of first.

We shut her down. detected a very feint burning smell. got the help of a passerby to help us push the car forward slightly and that helped get the car into neutral. Pushed it to the side and parked it.

We checked the reservoir and it was topped off. No leaks. We played it safe called a flat bed. We started it up to get it on the flat bed and were able to shift with just a little difficulty, almost normal though but still off. Its on its way to a yard for the night and then off to our shop when it opens in the morning.

Our guess is the master cylinder issue. The clutch has less than 300 miles on it. Any other ideas as what it could be?

[DMC5180]

What is the recent maintenance history? 300miles since clutch! What else was done at the time? Who is doing your work. Are you familiar with PJ grady's out in Montauk LI?

[Rich]

When you check the clutch fluid be sure you are checking the correct reservoir (the one to left of gas cap).

Check the clutch operation tomorrow at the shop.

1. Still full? Then there are no external leaks.

2. Still not much clutch pedal force when cold? Bad master or bad slave.

3.a. Normal clutch pedal force when cold (problem "gone" tomorrow morning): This can occur if you are still running the OE clutch hose instead of the stainless upgrade hose (fluid inside vaporizes due to proximity of clutch hose to exhaust crossover pipe) or if the hose was inadvertently moved a lot closer to the exhaust crossover pipe - when the clutch was replaced.....

3.b. Normal clutch pedal force when cold, at least sometimes: This can also occur if the master or slave are only starting to fail, but fail intermittently. That is, the piston seal is OK some times when you push the pedal and not other times, sort of flops from one state to the other and back again. See #2.

The faint burning smell might be unrelated - unless you really do have a clutch fluid leak and it's leaking onto something hot. Like the exhaust crossover....

[papanoel]

What is the recent maintenance history? 300miles since clutch! What else was done at the time? Who is doing your work. Are you familiar with PJ grady's out in Montauk LI?

Yes I'm familiar with PJ Grady. I just bought this car 3 months ago.
Been having some basic work (alternator and brakes) done it with an autoshop i'm friendly with and trust. they are comfortable with working on the car.

Previous owner did all the work on car. He thinks he may not have put the master cylinder in correctly or maybe it wasn't bled correctly. But it hasn't been an issue. Thought we would have more time to address it later. I guess not.

I've been meaning to take it to grady just haven't had the time.

I think to be safe I should just replace both cylinders?

Should I be worried about the feint burning smell or is that normal for this issue?

[papanoel]

to address 3a. car has stainless steel clutch lines.

[DMC5180]

Faint burning smell could be anything. What is your impression of the smell. Plastic,electrical,hot oil (drips on Exhaust), sweet smell (Coolant). I have no Idea what burning brake fluid smells like. Your overall symptoms point to Clutch Hydraulics though.

[DMCMW Dave]

I think to be safe I should just replace both cylinders?

?

If they have not been replaced recently (past 5 years), the recent replacement of the line has probably introduced the failure. Typically a bad clutch master will leak inside the car near the pedal, but there is a failure mode where it will blow back into the reservoir and not leak externally at all. Take the lid off and have someone press the pedal. Be ready to wipe up fluid. If fluid sprays up in the reservoir the master has failed.

If the slave fails, the only failure mode is leaking.

It could need bleeding, but that condition doesn't typically come on after the fact. It either has air in it or it doesn't.

[papanoel]

If they have not been replaced recently (past 5 years), the recent replacement of the line has probably introduced the failure. Typically a bad clutch master will leak inside the car near the pedal, but there is a failure mode where it will blow back into the reservoir and not leak externally at all. Take the lid off and have someone press the pedal. Be ready to wipe up fluid. If fluid sprays up in the reservoir the master has failed.

If the slave fails, the only failure mode is leaking.

It could need bleeding, but that condition doesn't typically come on after the fact. It either has air in it or it doesn't.

Previous owner put in a new slave. Rebuilt the master. All with in last 300 miles.

Did not see any leaks inside the car.

[David T]

Previous owner put in a new slave. Rebuilt the master. All with in last 300 miles.

Did not see any leaks inside the car.

There are still a couple of possibilities. If the clutch fork is moving when you step on the pedal the problem is internal. It could be a clutch problem or it could be a transmission problem. If the nut on the end of he shaft is coming loose it could be part of the problem. If the clutch fork is NOT moving or moving very little the problem is external to the clutch and you have a problem with the master and/or slave cylinder. It is not easy to see the clutch fork but it can be done. Just because you have new parts you cannot rule out a problem with the parts. New parts can be installed improperly and/or fail.

[DMCMW Dave]

Rebuilt the master. .

Smoking Gun.

[Bikercmbc]

I am the previous owner, the slave cyl. is brand new, has ss braided line, new clutch, pressure plate, throw out fork, and bearing. I rebuild the master cause it had the normal leak into the inside of the car. after the master was rebuilt the inner seal that holds the pressure from returning into the tank either had dirt still on the end or the seal doesnt seal correct. if you pressed the clutch in to shift it would push fluid correctly, but if you rest you foot on the pedal the fluid would push back up into the reservoir. Go with a new master, everything else is brand new.

[papanoel]

Thanks kyle. i was just writing you an email lol.

[Bikercmbc]

sure, no problem. you can eliminate the transmission by having the car off and shifting the gears, if you can get just enough pressure on the clutch. if you can shift through all the gears then focus on the hydrolics (master cyl). Im 99% sure your clutch fluid is travelling back into the reservoir and not pushing it throught the line to the slave, thats why its stiff to shift and mushy pedal feel. take the reservoir cap off and have your dad push the pedal, you will see the clutch fluid rise in the reservoir. If there is any blue fluid around the clutch master or on the frame that is the brake fluid i used and it needs to be cleaned off before it eats away at the frame epoxy.

[David T]

Thanks kyle. i was just writing you an email lol.

If the valve seal in the master cylinder is leaking you still get full release but if you keep your foot on the clutch pedal with the transmission in gear (and the motor running) the clutch will slowly engage and the car will start moving. If you are not losing any brake fluid (you don' t see the level going down) and you see no external leakage the hose and the slave are probably OK. The definitive test would be to have someone step all the way down on the clutch pedal and you watch the clutch fork. It should move and stop. It should stay there until the pedal is released and then return to it's original position. It should be repeatable. If the clutch hydraulics work then the problem is going to be inside either the clutch and/or the transmission. Test it out before buying any parts.

[GS450-Junkie]

How often do the master and slave fail in a DeLorean's lifetime? Is this an every 5 year thing or does it strictly relate to driving/sitting time, etc. ?

[Rich]

How often do the master and slave fail in a DeLorean's lifetime? Is this an every 5 year thing or does it strictly relate to driving/sitting time, etc. ?

It's not driving time, it's the sitting time and what's inside of it that counts.

Lots of D's are not kept as daily drivers or are just not kept up at all, that is, the owners do not bother to flush/bleed the clutch and the brake fluid every 3 years, in which case the components are subject to more degradation than necessary.

It's not statistically meaningful but the OE master on ours lasted 26 years before it started to let go. We are still on the OE slave from the factory. And, yes, it gets flushed from time to time. Because that's much easier than replacing it....

[David T]

It's not driving time, it's the sitting time and what's inside of it that counts.

Lots of D's are not kept as daily drivers or are just not kept up at all, that is, the owners do not bother to flush/bleed the clutch and the brake fluid every 3 years, in which case the components are subject to more degradation than necessary.

It's not statistically meaningful but the OE master on ours lasted 26 years before it started to let go. We are still on the OE slave from the factory. And, yes, it gets flushed from time to time. Because that's much easier than replacing it....

Actually I would recommend every other year. On Lotus's they want it done EVERY year. This includes the brakes. These parts don't wear out so much as are damaged by the internal corrosion when the brake fluid corrodes the internal bores and the seals get torn up passing over the rough spots. Lack of use is another big factor. When you use the car you heat up the brake fluid which drives the moisture out of the fluid keeping it from getting acidic. Brake fluid is hygroscopic, ie, it absorbs moisture from the air. By heating it you can get the moisture out of it. Moisture also reduces the boiling point of the fluid. you DO NOT want your fluid boiling during hard braking. That is not the time you want the system to become pneumatic instead of hydraulic!

[Rich]

Good point, David. Agreeing every 2 years is the right recipe even if my post said at least every 3 yrs.

In fact, I'm going in to have my shop bleed the clutch and the brakes at the end of this week. Some jobs call for delegation and, for me, this is one of those. I happen to have a brake bleeder kit and I've used it in the past but I just haven't got the time to get to this before another few months roll by and I'm already at 2.5 years since the last flush. I'd rather be driving it while the weather is still good here than doing either of those two jobs on it.

[David T]

Good point, David. Agreeing every 2 years is the right recipe even if my post said at least every 3 yrs.

In fact, I'm going in to have my shop bleed the clutch and the brakes at the end of this week. Some jobs call for delegation and, for me, this is one of those. I happen to have a brake bleeder kit and I've used it in the past but I just haven't got the time to get to this before another few months roll by and I'm already at 2.5 years since the last flush. I'd rather be driving it while the weather is still good here than doing either of those two jobs on it.

In the world of Lotus, they do it every year as I mentioned and most will argue it should be done in the Spring when you take your car out of storage. That way you have the freshest fluid with the highest boiling point so you are ready for the track. Another benefit of doing it regularly, on cars that have not had it done in a long time it is not unusual for the bleeder nipples to break off. Happens because moisture gets into the hollow nipple and corrodes it to the caliper. Because it is hollow and thin it is weak and can break. Also a good reason to replace those little rubber caps, they help to keep dirt and water out. On the subject of timed life, coolant every other year tested for PH and strength and changed every 5. Battery tested every year and replaced after 5. Tires every 7 years or when you hit the tread bars.

[papanoel]

Well the master cylinder has been replaced and the car shifts easier now. except for reverse.

Really needs an absurd amount of force to get into reverse. Is this a matter of adjusting the cross gate cable?

[Bikercmbc]

absurb amout of pedal pressure to get into gear without grinding or amount of right hand to move shifter into back into reverse??

[David T]

absurb amout of pedal pressure to get into gear without grinding or amount of right hand to move shifter into back into reverse??

The pedal pressure shouldn't be any different no matter what gear you are shifting into. If you are having trouble moving the gearshift lever it can be the linkage needing adjustment and/or lubrication or maybe a problem with the lock-out gate. You ARE lifting the knob to get into reverse, aren't you! You should not have to force anything or you will break something.

[papanoel]

The pedal pressure shouldn't be any different no matter what gear you are shifting into. If you are having trouble moving the gearshift lever it can be the linkage needing adjustment and/or lubrication or maybe a problem with the lock-out gate. You ARE lifting the knob to get into reverse, aren't you! You should not have to force anything or you will break something.

Yes we are definitely lifting it. Was just a tad difficult before. Now its really hard after they put they clutch master in. They told me they removed the shift boot and lubricated in there. Obviously it seems got knocked out of alignment when they did that.

[Bikercmbc]

does the rev. gear grind when you put it in rev?? or no grinding but just hard to actually get it to align right and put it into reverse?

[papanoel]

no grinding.

[papanoel]

well now the crossgate cable has been adjusted smoothly goes into all gears. with one MAJOR exception. Now it does in fact grind when engaging reverse.

[David T]

well now the crossgate cable has been adjusted smoothly goes into all gears. with one MAJOR exception. Now it does in fact grind when engaging reverse.

Do not shift into reverse if the car is moving at all. You should wait a couple of seconds before shifting into reverse for the parts in the transmission to stop spinning. If you continue to have grinding noises change the oil in the transmission. If the idle is too high that can also cause grinding. If the car has not been driven for a long time the clutch could be dragging because of rust and dirt and eventually it will go away. If it does not you may have to replace the clutch.

[papanoel]

Do not shift into reverse if the car is moving at all. You should wait a couple of seconds before shifting into reverse for the parts in the transmission to stop spinning. If you continue to have grinding noises change the oil in the transmission. If the idle is too high that can also cause grinding. If the car has not been driven for a long time the clutch could be dragging because of rust and dirt and eventually it will go away. If it does not you may have to replace the clutch.

Car isn't moving when we are doing this. Doesn't always happen. Oil is new. Idle is at 1000. Car is driven somewhat regularly. Clutch is new. aprox less than 500 miles on it.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Dose double clutching (release the clutch in neutral) stop the grinding?

[David T]

Car isn't moving when we are doing this. Doesn't always happen. Oil is new. Idle is at 1000. Car is driven somewhat regularly. Clutch is new. aprox less than 500 miles on it.

Do you have the correct amount of the right kind of oil in there? 1K RPM's is a bit high. It is supposed to be 775, that may be contributing to the grinding. If the clutch is still pretty new it may just be a matter of the parts working in and wearing off the high spots from the clutch plates. You can retry going over the linkage adjustments.

[papanoel]

Dose double clutching (release the clutch in neutral) stop the grinding?

it appear double clutching helps. but occasionally it will still grind. Rate of success seems to be higher double clutching.

I think our next step is to maybe adjust the linkage again. or see if we can adjust the clutch pedal and get more clutch.
Since it was going into reverse without grinding before and the only thing that has really changed is the adjustment of the crossgate cable i think readjusting the cable appears to be the best course of action for now.

Going to take steps lower the idle rpm as well.

[Bitsyncmaster]

it appear double clutching helps. but occasionally it will still grind. Rate of success seems to be higher double clutching.

I think our next step is to maybe adjust the linkage again. or see if we can adjust the clutch pedal and get more clutch.
Since it was going into reverse without grinding before and the only thing that has really changed is the adjustment of the crossgate cable i think readjusting the cable appears to be the best course of action for now.

Going to take steps lower the idle rpm as well.

Your logic sounds good.

[DMC5180]

it appear double clutching helps. but occasionally it will still grind. Rate of success seems to be higher double clutching.

I think our next step is to maybe adjust the linkage again. or see if we can adjust the clutch pedal and get more clutch.
Since it was going into reverse without grinding before and the only thing that has really changed is the adjustment of the crossgate cable i think readjusting the cable appears to be the best course of action for now.

Going to take steps lower the idle rpm as well.

Under normal circumstances, a stock delorean does NOT have adjustable clutch pedal linkage. That said there are "aftermarket" adustable links that someone could have installed at some time in it's prior life. These were a feable attempt to fix the Soft clutch line issue.

I would agree that tweaking the Cross-gate a bit more may help. This is a Sensative adjustment to get just right.
It could be that you need have situation that the cross-gate shaft is not quite moving far enough INWARD to get a CLEAN reverse fork shaft. You could be still catching the 1-2 shift fork (2 gears at once does not work very well :-)

Also something to try, Assuming the clutch pedal is down, slip the shifter into 2nd (do not let up on the clutch pedal)then out and immediately into reverse. This will stop the Input shaft internals from moving IF you have clutch drag.

[nofear365]

well now the crossgate cable has been adjusted smoothly goes into all gears. with one MAJOR exception. Now it does in fact grind when engaging reverse.

Shift into 5th, then try reverse. This always worked for me and any other manual I've ever owned / drove.

What part of Brooklyn are you in? I'm originally from Brooklyn (Bergen Beach area).

[papanoel]

Shift into 5th, then try reverse. This always worked for me and any other manual I've ever owned / drove.

What part of Brooklyn are you in? I'm originally from Brooklyn (Bergen Beach area).

Going to try all these thigns this weekend.

I'm in manhattan not Brooklyn.