Oil in VOD?

[jangell]

I took off my intake manifold as part of the prep for my EFI conversion. Unfortunately, I found quite a lot of fluid of some sort in the VOD. Note that the back of the car is raised at the moment, which is why it is all pooling towards the front of the car.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/14/devu4a5u.jpg http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/14/e6y9abe9.jpg 22492

This fluid is brown-ish in color, and seemed oil-like when I dipped my finger in it. For whatever reason, the fluid near the front of the car is darker than at the back, but that might have to do with how dirty the VOD is and how the fluid shifted when the rear of the car was raised.

I put some on a white paper towel along with some fresh oil, and they look pretty similar in color. In the picture, the dot on the top is fresh oil, while the dots on the bottom are from dipping my finger in the fluid in the VOD and wiping it on the towel.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/14/ebasade3.jpg

A second picture taken after the oils had dried, plus some faint green dots of coolant for good measure. The clean oil and coolant are very fair, while the VOD fluids are still dark.

22493

Now, my VOD is fairly dirty. Also, I had some kind of small oil leak for a long time (years) (which I think was finally traced to the oil senders) that coated much of the bottom of my engine in a film of oil. I never was able to get all of that off.

I pressurized the coolant system with a tester to ~20 PSI, but there were no leaks coming from anything associated with the Y pipe (or anywhere else), which leads me to believe that this is not a coolant leak -- or at least it isn't from the Y pipe are.

Also interesting is that the top of the electrical and vacuum connections in the Y pipe also have fluid on them. I had hoped it was spray from coolant, but the pressure test rules that out. I'm not sure how else some sort of fluid would get that high.

I wondered if it was gasoline from removing the fuel lines, but that should have evaporated away, right?

I'm not sure how to proceed. Any thoughts on anything else I should check? How could oil come get into the VOD? Or might this just be coolant or even water mixed with dirt and other residue in the VOD? How can I be sure what kind of fluid this is from the fluid itself? Am I going to need to pull the engine or anything so extreme?

Apologies for the somewhat random rotation of the photos.

Thanks!

-- Joe

[Bitsyncmaster]

You have to remove the Y pipe and clean the VOD to inspect if you have block rot.

[Josh]

If the coolant system is leak free with the pressure tester, it sure looks like an oil leak. There are two fluids that could get into that area, coolant and oil, it certainly does not look like coolant unfortunately.

As mentioned take off the y pipe and clean up the oil. I just used a bunch of paper towels.

Then, assess the area for a leak. The most common areas for block rot are the square cavities. They are about 2" deep. Once the oil is removed, have a helper crank the car and look into each hole with a flashlight to see if there are bubbles (WEAR EYE PROTECTION). In my case, the one hole filled with oil, making it very obvious. If this is the case, you need a new block...

People have tried to fix these holes by patching them. I have seen two fixes. One is not ideal, he used some sealant and clamped piece of metal over the holes. The second is having plates tig welded over the holes. In both cases it worked for a while but due to the oil pressure and compromised integrity of the block, pinhole leaks started appearing elsewhere.

I have attached pictures of my block (PO filled hole with epoxy), and the two other fixes.

But since you are doing an EFI conversion anyway, why not join us in the 3.0 club? LOL


Perhaps we are all jumping to conclusions and a bunch of oil was poured into the valley during an oil change.

224942249522496

[Josh]

It could be one of three fluids actually: Coolant, oil, or brake fluid from the slave cylinder.

However that is much more fluid than the clutch circuit holds, and if your car is an auto this is an impossibility.


Just thought I would include that as well!

[DMCMW Dave]

It could be one of three fluids actually: Coolant, oil, or brake fluid from the slave cylinder.

However that is much more fluid than the clutch circuit holds, ...!

Annnd - This one appears to be an automatic.

If it's block rot, it's in the very early stages as typically once there is a hole in the oil pressure galley, the oil lost is very dramatic, i.e. .it will empty the crankcase in a few minutes and you would have seen oil running out under the area of the water pump when it was running.

[jangell]

Thanks guys. I do have an automatic, so it can't be the slave cylinder. Guess I'm draining the coolant, removing the Y pipe and cleaning the VOD next weekend...

I have a relay in the engine bay that provides power to the starter (my work-around for the service bulletin on early cars, before I knew about that bulletin). When I was doing some tests to figure out why my car wouldn't go over 1500 RPM, I removed the relay and hooked the two relevant wires into a heavy duty button that I could push to crank the engine from the engine bay. It's still installed, so it should be easy to do without an assistant (and with the advantage of being able to stop it immediately by simply releasing the button). I gather it's safe to crank the engine without the manifold and fuel injectors in place?

I have not seen oil by the water pump. However, the rear of the car has been raised about a foot and a half for a month or so while I was messing around with the fuel filter, and I hadn't gotten around to lowering it yet. This is also why I didn't check the oil level yet. There is some liquid on the ground forward of the engine, but I assumed that was more of the transmission leak that I'm never able to get rid of -- although it is likely that it s also some of the overflow from wherever this oil is coming from.

-- Joe

[Josh]

Annnd - This one appears to be an automatic.

If it's block rot, it's in the very early stages as typically once there is a hole in the oil pressure galley, the oil lost is very dramatic, i.e. .it will empty the crankcase in a few minutes and you would have seen oil running out under the area of the water pump when it was running.

Hey you didn't let me finish my sentence! haha.

I couldnt see the slave, but I wasnt 100% as the picture was dark in that area.


Thanks guys. I do have an automatic, so it can't be the slave cylinder. Guess I'm draining the coolant, removing the Y pipe and cleaning the VOD next weekend...

I have a relay in the engine bay that provides power to the starter (my work-around for the service bulletin on early cars, before I knew about that bulletin). When I was doing some tests to figure out why my car wouldn't go over 1500 RPM, I removed the relay and hooked the two relevant wires into a heavy duty button that I could push to crank the engine from the engine bay. It's still installed, so it should be easy to do without an assistant (and with the advantage of being able to stop it immediately by simply releasing the button). I gather it's safe to crank the engine without the manifold and fuel injectors in place?

I have not seen oil by the water pump. However, the rear of the car has been raised about a foot and a half for a month or so while I was messing around with the fuel filter, and I hadn't gotten around to lowering it yet. This is also why I didn't check the oil level yet. There is some liquid on the ground forward of the engine, but I assumed that was more of the transmission leak that I'm never able to get rid of -- although it is likely that it s also some of the overflow from wherever this oil is coming from.

-- Joe

Perfect, the push button is very nice. I jumped my starter directly to a battery, same idea but pretty crude.

I would pull the fuel pump fuse (or unplug the pump at the tank) and disconnect the coil before cranking the engine.


Your comment about the waterpump also reminds me of another area that could leak. There are two plugs under the water pump. They are sealed with a copper washer, and if they are worn out they can leak. They would be worn out by removing the plug and not installing a new washer.

[jangell]

But since you are doing an EFI conversion anyway, why not join us in the 3.0 club?

To be honest, what I really want to do is get a mid-2000s Honda (or whatever) engine and transmission and put those in the car. I'm on my fourth transmission on 10 years (mostly due to not being able to recognize a leak, a failed weld, again not noticing a leak, and the original transmission being rebuilt incorrectly; I'm paranoid about maintaining it these days -- and it still leaks), so getting something that doesn't cost a fortune to replace and doesn't leak all the time would be quite nice. I also I figured it would be easier to get parts for and maintain a modern engine.

The catch, of course, is that the only modern rear engine/rear wheel drive car that is even remotely close to the DeLorean is a Porsche 911, and for that you need to modify the frame to fit that transmission, plus everything costs as much or more than DeLorean parts would. I also don't have the engineering skill to find a transmission that can be mounted upside down and modify it to do such so that I wouldn't have 5 gears in reverse, either. Or some way to take a laterally-mounted front engine, front wheel drive setup and mount it in the engine bay such that the transmission turned the other way (again to avoid the "5 gears in reverse" problem").

What I REALLY want to do is what the electric Mercedes AMG (http://www.motortrend.com/auto_shows/paris/2012/1209_mercedes_benz_sls_amg_electric_drive/photo_03.html) does, and have separate electric motors for each wheel -- or even better, electric motors IN each wheel. Or hydrogen fuel cells. Really, anything that would decouple the location of the drive system from the location of the wheels so that I wouldn't be restricted to RE/RWD engine/transmission donors. Of course, at that point I may as well just get a Bugatti, because that's probably how much it would cost. :) Well, that or wait another 20 years until I can pull something off of a future production car...


ANYWAY, all of that is probably not going to happen, so assuming I need a new block (I guess we'll know in a week), I'm going to have to decide between a 3.0 (if I can find one), and a new DMC engine. I do have that nice new SPEC I exhaust and performance cams, so I'm leaning towards a DMC engine at this time, if it comes to that. Still, a quick check of the DMC site shows that a complete engine (http://store.delorean.com/p-6061-engine-complete.aspx) is $9,279.69. I didn't notice a way to just buy the block, although since you'd have to basically build the engine from scratch at that point, it doesn't sound like I'd really want to do that anyway.

-- Joe

[Josh]

To be honest, what I really want to do is get a mid-2000s Honda (or whatever) engine and transmission and put those in the car. I'm on my fourth transmission on 10 years (mostly due to not being able to recognize a leak, a failed weld, again not noticing a leak, and the original transmission being rebuilt incorrectly; I'm paranoid about maintaining it these days -- and it still leaks), so getting something that doesn't cost a fortune to replace and doesn't leak all the time would be quite nice. I also I figured it would be easier to get parts for and maintain a modern engine.

The catch, of course, is that the only modern rear engine/rear wheel drive car that is even remotely close to the DeLorean is a Porsche 911, and for that you need to modify the frame to fit that transmission, plus everything costs as much or more than DeLorean parts would. I also don't have the engineering skill to find a transmission that can be mounted upside down and modify it to do such so that I wouldn't have 5 gears in reverse, either. Or some way to take a laterally-mounted front engine, front wheel drive setup and mount it in the engine bay such that the transmission turned the other way (again to avoid the "5 gears in reverse" problem").

What I REALLY want to do is what the electric Mercedes AMG (http://www.motortrend.com/auto_shows/paris/2012/1209_mercedes_benz_sls_amg_electric_drive/photo_03.html) does, and have separate electric motors for each wheel -- or even better, electric motors IN each wheel. Or hydrogen fuel cells. Really, anything that would decouple the location of the drive system from the location of the wheels so that I wouldn't be restricted to RE/RWD engine/transmission donors. Of course, at that point I may as well just get a Bugatti, because that's probably how much it would cost. :) Well, that or wait another 20 years until I can pull something off of a future production car...


ANYWAY, all of that is probably not going to happen, so assuming I need a new block (I guess we'll know in a week), I'm going to have to decide between a 3.0 (if I can find one), and a new DMC engine. I do have that nice new SPEC I exhaust and performance cams, so I'm leaning towards a DMC engine at this time, if it comes to that. Still, a quick check of the DMC site shows that a complete engine (http://store.delorean.com/p-6061-engine-complete.aspx) is $9,279.69. I didn't notice a way to just buy the block, although since you'd have to basically build the engine from scratch at that point, it doesn't sound like I'd really want to do that anyway.

-- Joe

Interesting ideas, I am all for engine swaps. When nicely done, it can really add alot to these cars in terms of functionality and uniqueness!

I did the PRV swap due to monetary constraints, I was originally considering a VR6 or LSx swap. May still happen in the future, but until then I feel the 3.0 will serve me well!

3.0s are very easy to come by. I found mine in a few days, payed $200 for it. I have seen several since them varying from free to $300.
Just an FYI, the spec 1 exhaust will bolt right up to the 3.0. I am not sure about the cams though, as the 2.8 is odd fire and the 3.0 is even.

Building up an engine is a lot of work, time and money. There is many, many parts that would need to be replaced to replace the block, as you are taking the engine entirely apart.

[jangell]

I would pull the fuel pump fuse (or unplug the pump at the tank) and disconnect the coil before cranking the engine.

At the moment the fuel system is pretty much out of the car, the fuel line to the fuel filter under the car is disconnected, and there's no gas in the tank. Still not a bad idea, though -- it's probably not good to run the tank dry.


Your comment about the waterpump also reminds me of another area that could leak. There are two plugs under the water pump. They are sealed with a copper washer, and if they are worn out they can leak. They would be worn out by removing the plug and not installing a new washer.

I gather that means removing the water pump (not a big deal to do at this point)? I don't think I noticed those before. I'll certainly take a look if cleaning the VOD doesn't reveal anything.

Speaking of which, is there a guide to cleaning the VOD? Tools to use, that sort of thing? (Incidentally, it's really annoying that you can't search the forum for three letter words like EFI or VOD).

-- Joe

[jangell]

I did the PRV swap due to monetary constraints, I was originally considering a VR6 or LSx swap. May still happen in the future, but until then I feel the 3.0 will serve me well!

For me, there's no point in swapping to a non-PRV engine if I can't also replace the transmission with something more affordable and/or less likely to fail.


3.0s are very easy to come by. I found mine in a few days, payed $200 for it. I have seen several since them varying from free to $300.
Just an FYI, the spec 1 exhaust will bolt right up to the 3.0. I am not sure about the cams though, as the 2.8 is odd fire and the 3.0 is even.

That's reassuring. I expect I won't be able to use the cams, but I'm sure I can get much of my money back on eBay.

As for a 3.0 swap, as I understand it, you mate the top of the 3.0 to the bottom of the stock engine, correct? Or something to that effect? The most I've done on an engine so far is taking off the cylinder heads, and I had a more knowledgable friend help me put it all back together. Of course, I was worried about ruining the engine -- that's less of a concern if it's only $300 or so for a 3.0 and my 2.8 is effectively dead anyway.


Building up an engine is a lot of work, time and money. There is many, many parts that would need to be replaced to replace the block, as you are taking the engine entirely apart.

Yeah, I think I'll avoid going that route. :)

Thanks

-- Joe

[DMC5180]

As for a 3.0 swap, as I understand it, you mate the top of the 3.0 to the bottom of the stock engine, correct? Or something to that effect? The most I've done on an engine so far is taking off the cylinder heads, and I had a more knowledgable friend help me put it all back together. Of course, I was worried about ruining the engine -- that's less of a concern if it's only $300 or so for a 3.0 and my 2.8 is effectively dead anyway.

-- Joe

The 2.8 bottom girdle (Motor mount section) w/pan must be transferred to the 3.0 block.

[David T]

The 2.8 bottom girdle (Motor mount section) w/pan must be transferred to the 3.0 block.

It may be that oil was spilled into that area when you were putting oil into the motor. I would try to clean it all up as thoroughly as possible and carefully inspect the bottom of the cavities for any sign of leakage.

[jangell]

Interesting ideas, I am all for engine swaps. When nicely done, it can really add alot to these cars in terms of functionality and uniqueness!

Another wacky idea: Some pre-2000 Honda engines (the B series engines, apparently) rotated in the opposite direction of every other engine out there. In theory, this means that mating such an engine to a conventionally-rotating transmission would give you a functioning RE/RWD configuration. Or using a transmission meant for a B-series engine with any other engine.

Mind you, building adaptor plates and engine/transmission spline interfaces to mate the two, and making the the necessary mounting hardware to fit it into the DMC is all a bit outside my skill set...

-- Joe

[jangell]

It may be that oil was spilled into that area when you were putting oil into the motor. I would try to clean it all up as thoroughly as possible and carefully inspect the bottom of the cavities for any sign of leakage.

Quite right -- first thing to do is figure out if I actually have block rot, before I go too far down the "replacing the engine" rabbit hole.

Cleaning up the oil itself is simple enough, but are there any suggestions for cleaning out the coat of dried oil (or whatever it is) covering the engine? The VoD is not a nice aluminum grey, but rather a dirty dark grey/black. I'm guessing a wire brush and some degreaser would be necessary here?

Thanks!

-- Joe

[Dangermouse]

It may be that oil was spilled into that area when you were putting oil into the motor. .

That was my first thought too. Did you do the last oil change, or was it the PO?


Which lead to my second thought:

http://i1276.photobucket.com/albums/y462/staffpicks/Animated_GIFs/oil.gif

[AugustneverEnds]

It may be that oil was spilled into that area when you were putting oil into the motor. I would try to clean it all up as thoroughly as possible and carefully inspect the bottom of the cavities for any sign of leakage.

Hoping you only have a case of spilled oil and not a cracked block... I'll be praying to the DMC gods for you

[jangell]

That was my first thought too. Did you do the last oil change, or was it the PO?

I have a local shop I trust do oil changes; it's about the same price as doing it myself and a lot easier. They have a high oil reservoir and a hose that hangs down that they fill the engine with, so it's possible that oil spilled in there.

We'll know for sure once I clean the VOD this weekend.

-- Joe

[Josh]

i would like to restate what i said in post #3!



Perhaps we are all jumping to conclusions and a bunch of oil was poured into the valley during an oil change.






Another wacky idea: Some pre-2000 Honda engines (the B series engines, apparently) rotated in the opposite direction of every other engine out there. In theory, this means that mating such an engine to a conventionally-rotating transmission would give you a functioning RE/RWD configuration. Or using a transmission meant for a B-series engine with any other engine.

Mind you, building adaptor plates and engine/transmission spline interfaces to mate the two, and making the the necessary mounting hardware to fit it into the DMC is all a bit outside my skill set...

-- Joe

Alot of the older honda motors spun backwards. B series as you mentioned, but also h series and d series (I hope no one puts a d in a d!)

The nice thing about our transmission is this the differential and ring gear can be taken out, rotated 180deg, and now the transmission spins the other way. Lots of the ford guys do this for mid engine builds.
Building the adapter plate is a little tricky, but with some patience and CAD knowledge it is attainable. depending on the engine used, a custom clutch or flex plate would need to be made as well as some creative thinking to mount the starter.

Most people view the wiring as the hard part, but it sounds like you go that cased.

[jangell]

i would like to restate what i said in post #3!

Quite so! :)


Alot of the older honda motors spun backwards. B series as you mentioned, but also h series and d series (I hope no one puts a d in a d!)

I had only heard about it before, and did some quick Goolging to find out about the B series engines; I didn't know about the others. I saw something about a Fiat engine running backwards as well, but that's as old as the DMC's.

I'd prefer to do something as modern as feasible, but standards are conspiring against making this easy (well, as easy as an engine/trans swap could be, anyway). I may just have to wait another 20 years so I can do electric motors in the wheels or pull a widely-available electric drive system from a junkyard car (hopefully range issues will be mitigated by then).


The nice thing about our transmission is this the differential and ring gear can be taken out, rotated 180deg, and now the transmission spins the other way. Lots of the ford guys do this for mid engine builds.

If I wasn't on my fourth transmission, I might consider going that route. But if I'm going to do a swap, I'd like to replace the transmission as well. Or find out how to make the stock auto trans bulletproof.

Googling revealed some high-level suggestions about running a transmission backwards:
- Flipping the ring gear, as you mentioned. Not too many transmissions support this.
- Flipping the entire diff. Only works if the diff is separate from the trans.
- Flipping the entire transmission. Requires dealing with lubrication, plugging old vent holes and opening new ones, relocating the pan and filler, and hooking up the shift linkage (among other things, I imagine).

Then there's the issue of hooking the transmission up to the wheels. I understand the Porsche transmission bolts right up (once you've modified the frame to fit it), but I'm guessing that's not exactly common.

I also found some suggestions about running engines backwards, but this was generally not recommended. It sounded like in some cases you could put the cams in backwards to get the intake/exhaust ports to open at the right times, and in other cases you could make new cams, but it sounded like it wasn't really going to be an option in most cases.

Also, just running a transmission backwards (hooking a CW turning engine to a CCW turning transmission) might be bad for the transmission, and could cause pieces that expect to turn in one direction to basically fail apart when run in the other direction. This seems to rule out the idea of taking a CCW Honda engine and hooking it up to a CW trans (or visa versa).

I have no first hand knowledge of any of this. Which can also be read as, "I'm making this up as I go along." :)


Building the adapter plate is a little tricky, but with some patience and CAD knowledge it is attainable.

My day job is as a software engineer for a 3D modeling and animation package, which is not that dissimilar from CAD. I imagine the skills are somewhat similar. Admittedly, I don't do the interesting math bits, and we're more about pretty images than precision (not that I'd use a 3D animation app to build high-precision parts anyway).

I imagine the hardest part with building an adaptor plate is making sure your measurements are as exact as possible. It's not clear to me how exactly you do that, what with my normal tools being a tape measure and a small-parts caliper. I understand this has to be near perfect to work, as a slight misalignment will destroy the engine and transmission.


depending on the engine used, a custom clutch or flex plate would need to be made as well as some creative thinking to mount the starter.

I didn't think about those. I really just know enough to be dangerous, and I've yet to pull an engine from a car (pulling the cylinder heads is as far as I've gone). I was planning to replace my next failed transmission myself, though (which hopefully won't be for a long time).

You also need to be able to mate the engine and transmission spines, correct? Which means another, presumably more complex adaptor. Also mounting hardware make sure the engine and transmission are aligned correctly in the car.


Most people view the wiring as the hard part, but it sounds like you go that cased.

I figure that any swap would include MegaSquirt, if for no other reason than to avoid the black box nature of the original ECU. I'm also a computer guy, so dealing with computers and electronics in general aren't too big of a deal, although I'm more of a hobbyist as far as electronics goes (I'm no bitsyncmaster by a long shot). I was guessing that many mechanics view the wiring as the hard part mostly because they are used to (or prefer) dealing with the mechanical stuff, but I have no evidence to back that up.

-- Joe

[DMCMW Dave]

I have a local shop I trust do oil changes; it's about the same price as doing it myself and a lot easier. They have a high oil reservoir and a hose that hangs down that they fill the engine with, so it's possible that oil spilled in there.

-- Joe

That is hopefully the smoking gun. If they didn't pull the dipstick, and you still have the plastic screen at the bottom, the filler neck probably backed up. Those oil guns can flow pretty fast.

[jangell]

Let's hope so -- I'd like to leave all this engine swap discussion as an academic exercise and get on with my EFI conversion.

I'll report back after I clean the VOD and see if any oil appears when I crank the engine. Thanks!

-- Joe

[DeLorean03]

Still, a quick check of the DMC site shows that a complete engine (http://store.delorean.com/p-6061-engine-complete.aspx) is $9,279.69. I didn't notice a way to just buy the block, although since you'd have to basically build the engine from scratch at that point, it doesn't sound like I'd really want to do that anyway.


HOLY crying out loud - that is nearly double from what it used to be (around $5200 if I recall). What in the world, dude? That's an insane price increase.

[opethmike]

HOLY crying out loud - that is nearly double from what it used to be (around $5200 if I recall). What in the world, dude? That's an insane price increase.

Yeah, considering that $5,200 was already like triple what one of these engines should cost I would say that nearly doubling it is very good motivation for more people to snatch up 3.0s.

I've already decided that should my 2.8 blow, that I will be getting a 3.0.

[jangell]

Ok, I got the coolant out if the car (well, I flooded the VOD while removing the Y pipe, even after draining at the radiator; oh well) and getting most of the gunk out, I started cleaning out the deeper rectangular bits with a pick. I found this:

22624 22625

That hole is easily big enough to stick a pen or pencil in. I of course managed to drop a bunch of dried gunk in there as well.

I'm thinking this is block rot, and my engine is toast, but I'll need someone more knowledgeable to confirm this -- and that's where all of you come in.

Thanks!

-- Joe

[DMCMW Dave]

Ok, I got the coolant out if the car (well, I flooded the VOD while removing the Y pipe, even after draining at the radiator; oh well) and getting most of the gunk out, I started cleaning out the deeper rectangular bits with a pick. I found this:

22624 22625

That hole is easily big enough to stick a pen or pencil in. I of course managed to drop a bunch of dried gunk in there as well.

I'm thinking this is block rot, and my engine is toast, but I'll need someone more knowledgeable to confirm this -- and that's where all of you come in.

Thanks!

-- Joe

That is block rot into the crankcase. It is not going into the oil galley, so the oil you've been seeing has been flinging off the crank weights and coming through that hole, aided by crankcase ventilation. If it had been into the galley, the oil would have been pumped out much more violently and you would have seen it on the ground behind the car.

If the metal is sound going to the oil galley (the big ridge down the center) you may be able to have the block welded across the that area. It depends on how much other rot there is, and how good your welder is, and if there has been much (bearing) damage from foreign gunk getting inside the engine. I had one here where we found seeds in the crankcase left from animals living in the valley. . . .

It might be worth your while to clean it all up and have it welded. DO NOT waste your time with glue or epoxy, it will not hold long.

[jangell]

Thanks Dave. I'm leaning towards replacing the entire engine at this point, since I don't know how extensive the damage is (although the metal you mentioned does look good to me, but I could be wrong), nor am I quite that confident about my ability I successfully disassemble, repair and most importantly reassemble the engine to that extent. A swap sounds easy by comparison. :) I have a lead on a good condition engine, so I may give that a shot. Which will then lead to my forthcoming "help with replacing the engine" thread.

Thanks

-- Joe

[jangell]

Incidentally, the engine had about 90k miles on it (I'm guessing; haven't had an angle drive work for more than 5 miles for some time now). I'm not sure how long the VOD was in bad shape, but I've had oil on my engine for some time, which I had thought was due to the senders. However, I was never really able to get it completely cleaned off. Not sure how much that matters at this point, though.

-- Joe

[jawn101]

to my forthcoming "help with replacing the engine" thread.

Hey Joe - just some words of encouragement on this. As a total noob who'd never even changed a car's oil three years ago, I've had the motor of my D out, torn down and reinstalled in the car twice. In my own garage. It was made dramatically easier because another local owner is a rockstar super pro mechanic, but there are really not a lot of special tools needed or special knowledge required. Both times we did the job it was accomplished in about 18 hours actual "work" time (not counting the time to rebuild the transmission the first time,) which typically included fixing whatever we were in there to fix as well as anything else we broke on the way :)

So hang in there! Do the research, take your time and don't take shortcuts, but know that you'll definitely be able to make it happen.

[Bitsyncmaster]

It would be interesting to see if that is the only problem area (finish cleaning the VOD). If the rest is good, then that would suggest block rot can be due to a bad casting or bad mix of the alloy metal.

[jangell]

Hey Joe - just some words of encouragement on this. As a total noob who'd never even changed a car's oil three years ago, I've had the motor of my D out, torn down and reinstalled in the car twice. In my own garage. It was made dramatically easier because another local owner is a rockstar super pro mechanic, but there are really not a lot of special tools needed or special knowledge required. Both times we did the job it was accomplished in about 18 hours actual "work" time (not counting the time to rebuild the transmission the first time,) which typically included fixing whatever we were in there to fix as well as anything else we broke on the way :)

So hang in there! Do the research, take your time and don't take shortcuts, but know that you'll definitely be able to make it happen.

Thanks. My plan is to pull the engine no matter what, and likely replace it with another one. In and of itself that doesn't sound too hard... I'll like transfer over my recently-refurbished cylinder heads and performance cams as well. It will be easier to do all the EFI conversion stuff with the engine out of the car too, I imagine. I assume I can just remove the engine without pulling the transmission without too much trouble...

I'm weighing the idea of a Monaco/Premiere engine, but I have trouble believing I'll find one that doesn't need an overhaul, while the DMC engine I'm looking at is in good running condition and well maintained. Of course, the Monaco/Premiere engine would be significantly less expensive, modified by the time and cost of rebuilding it. When I did the cylinder heads, I got everything apart by myself but my much more knowledgable friend (a classic car mechanic) helped me a lot with putting everything back together.

-- Joe

[jangell]

It would be interesting to see if that is the only problem area (finish cleaning the VOD). If the rest is good, then that would suggest block rot can be due to a bad casting or bad mix of the alloy metal.

Tapping around with the pick some more didn't reveal anything else that bad, but I stopped cleaning once I found the hole. I'm planning on pulling the engine, at which point I'll was going to try to clean the VOD more and see if anyone else was interested in trying to repair it, or possibly trying to do so myself as a learning experience.

Beyond looking for large holes like the one I found, or hand-cranking the engine and looking for oil to spray out, how else would I be able to find bad areas on the block?

-- Joe

[jawn101]

I assume I can just remove the engine without pulling the transmission without too much trouble...

It is way easier to pull both at once in a home garage setting. Seriously, removing the transmission as well is 2 additional bolts and a couple of electrical/mechanical connections.

In a manual, anyway. Not sure about the auto.

[kings1527]

It would be interesting to see if that is the only problem area (finish cleaning the VOD). If the rest is good, then that would suggest block rot can be due to a bad casting or bad mix of the alloy metal.

That was kind of the question I had forming in my head. What exactly would cause block rot? It'd seem to be a far stretch that it'd ONLY be due to coolant sitting there, and at that it'd have to be for a LONG time. The bad mix of alloy metals sounds plausible; like electrolysis happening from two dissimilar metals that might be enhanced from the coolant.

[Totally 80s]

Nobody can remake blocks? Seems fairly easy.

[jangell]

It is way easier to pull both at once in a home garage setting. Seriously, removing the transmission as well is 2 additional bolts and a couple of electrical/mechanical connections.

In a manual, anyway. Not sure about the auto.

Thanks -- if that's all it is, I may as well do both at once. I imagine the manual and auto aren't very different in this respect.

My original plan was just to hoist the engine and mount it on an engine stand right from the hoist; what do you do when you have the trans still attached to the engine? Lay them on the ground, separate them and then hoist the engine onto the stand while leaving the trans on the ground?

-- Joe

[jawn101]

Thanks -- if that's all it is, I may as well do both at once. I imagine the manual and auto aren't very different in this respect.

My original plan was just to hoist the engine and mount it on an engine stand right from the hoist; what do you do when you have the trans still attached to the engine? Lay them on the ground, separate them and then hoist the engine onto the stand while leaving the trans on the ground?

-- Joe

Exactly, you got it. In a manual, you just disconnect the mounts on either side, the clutch pipe (drain the system first), the crossgate cable/linkage tube and remove the reverse switch wiring. Then you lift the whole lump up and out from behind. Set it down on a block of wood or something to avoid damaging the oil pan and remove the transmission, then set it aside and re-hoist the motor onto your stand. You'll find about a million jobs that are way easier to do with no motor in the way, too - so be prepared! :)

[jangell]

Exactly, you got it. In a manual, you just disconnect the mounts on either side, the clutch pipe (drain the system first), the crossgate cable/linkage tube and remove the reverse switch wiring. Then you lift the whole lump up and out from behind. Set it down on a block of wood or something to avoid damaging the oil pan and remove the transmission, then set it aside and re-hoist the motor onto your stand. You'll find about a million jobs that are way easier to do with no motor in the way, too - so be prepared! :)

Cool, that sounds straight-forward enough. I did notice that in Nicholas' LS1 conversion blog he mentions that the auto transmission is much larger than the manual trans, and that it was difficult to get out of the car. I don't know what other people's experiences are with removing the auto trans, though.

-- Joe

[jangell]

A quick update here: I've had the engine out of the car for a couple weeks now (it wasn't terribly difficult; it was mostly figuring out what to disconnect and, in some cases, how to do it), and recently got a 3.0L with 36k miles on it off of eBay. Today I tore down the 2.8L to get ready to move the bottom end to the 3.0L.

When I took off the 2.8L's oil baffle, a chunk of aluminum fell out. This piece is smooth on one side and broken and rough on the other, like it had fallen off the inside of the block.

2563625635

Just as worrying were nuts holding the lower crankcase to the block -- one of them wasn't even on its stud, and was lying near its washer under the engine.

25642

From what I can tell the other parts of the engine look OK, although that doesn't matter too much as I move to the 3.0L. I plan on putting a few of the 2.8L's parts on eBay, like the recently-resurfaced cylinder heads and the performance cams with ~1000 miles on them, if that. I'm not sure if it's worth putting any other parts up, though, or if I should just scrap the rest.

Some more pictures of the inside of the engine, for no particular reason:

2563925638

Thanks again everyone for all the help!

-- Joe

(Random forum trivia: seems the forum likes to convert PNGs to be quite small JPGs, while it keeps JPGs their original size, or at least as a larger size -- hence the series of small attachments on this post as I attempted to get a readable image to show up. Weird.)

[NightFlyer]

WOW - that's insane!!!

[jangell]

One last follow-up to this thread: I disassembled the remains of the 2.8L engine and put all the various parts up on eBay. With the pistons out of the way, I was able to get a good look at the hole form the inside. It looks like a chunk of metal came right off the inside wall, and it seems the other side was failing as well.

287162871228713

-- Joe

[Bitsyncmaster]

That hole would not be a high pressure leak. Is that where they all form?

[jangell]

This hole was probably just filling the valley with oil. I also had a bad oil sender that was leaking in the past, and is probably what coated most of my engine with oil; it took quite a while to figure that out, and I never really cleaned the engine up after I fixed it. Only now with the engine out of the car and moving the lower crankcase to the 3.0L and put the other stuff on eBay did I finally clean up everything (well, except the block itself, since that's just scrap now).

I too am curious about where VoD holes normally form, and if mine is anomalous.

-- Joe

[DMCMW Dave]

I've seen holes that go right in to the main oil line, that's the dramatic case where you dump 7 quarts of oil on the ground in roughly a half mile. These are generally in the deep voids that are on either side of the gallies that feed the main bearings.

I've also seen holes in the flat floor of the valley, these are simply into the crankcase and allow oil to escape as splash oil and vapors. If the valley is packed with dirt it may go like this a very long time, eventually when you take the intake off you see oily mud all over the valley. This is quite a bit easier to fix but usually if it's rotted here the deep holes are not far behind.

When the holes get big enough, they will also allow mouse leavings to fall into the crankcase. Which then plug the pickup starving the engine of oil. Yes - we've really seen this one. We were really scratching our heads for a few minutes wondering how grass and seeds got into the oil pickup.

[Alexander]

Sorry for my ignorance, but I see 'VOD' used a lot in this thread, but what is VOD?

[Bitsyncmaster]

Sorry for my ignorance, but I see 'VOD' used a lot in this thread, but what is VOD?

Valley Of Death.

[Rich]

Sorry for my ignorance, but I see 'VOD' used a lot in this thread, but what is VOD?

Yes, Valley of Death. Good question.

There's a list of common DeLorean-related acronyms, including "VOD", linked within post #22 of this other thread (https://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?1690-Common-abbreviations-and-acronyms/page3&highlight=acronyms).

Mods: It could be moved to the Resources section as a Sticky someday?

[Ron]

Mods: It could be moved to the Resources section as a Sticky someday?
Great idea!...Searchable PDF HERE (https://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?19505-Common-DeLorean-Acronyms).