3.0 Swap Questions

[jangell]

Given that my motor has a hole in the VOD, I'm trying to decide if I should replace it with a known good DeLorean engine, or swap to an Eagle Premiere/Dodge Monaco engine. I found a few threads on this, but I wanted to get some advice on my specific situation.

First, some background:
- My current engine has a SPEC I exhaust and performance cams. Heads were resurfaced about a two years go or so. I also have a high-torque starter. I know the exhaust and I think the starter can be used with the 3.0, at least.
- I have an automatic transmission, if that matters.
- I was about to start an MegaSquirt EFI conversion when I found this problem, so whichever engine I use will have that conversion done. As such, electrical connections and fuel plumbing are less of a concern to me, since they'll be somewhat custom anyway (have to figure out the coolant pipes, of course). While I was only going to do fuel to start, I presume I'll be doing spark as well if I go with the 3.0.

Now, the questions:
- What are the variants? I thought the Premiere/Monaco was a B280F, but some basic research implied that is a different engine. I also saw references to some of the later engines featuring EFI, coil packs, hydraulic vs. mechanical rocker arms, and more aggressive cams.
- Is there a specific model year to look for?
- Since the engine has likely been sitting for a while, am I going to have to tear it down and rebuild it, or are people commonly able to use them as-is with minor work?
- What is involved in the actual swap? I understand that the motor mounts and lower case have to be transplanted from the DMC's original engine, but that it should otherwise bolt up to the DeLorean's transmission without a problem. Having never even seen the bottom of the DeLorean's engine outside of the car, I have no idea how complex this is. And of course replacing the fuel/spark control systems.
- I also read about how the crank position sensor is in the Eagle/Monaco transmission bell housing, so something would have to be done about that for spark. It wasn't entirely clear to me what the solution was for that sensor. It looks like Josh went with a 1-36 trigger wheel on the crank pulley?

To be honest, I'm leaning towards doing a straight swap to another DeLorean engine to keep things simple, rather than possibly getting in over my head on a 3.0 conversion. Although if Nicholas started making an LS1 "kit" that included all the parts he had to fabricate at a price that wasn't too astronomical, I'd jump on that (and probably destroy my auto trans with it). :)

Thanks!

-- Joe

[Ron]

Consider finding someone to weld the block -- My experience over the years is, if you clean it up FIRST and the welder is truly good, he knows it and will have no problem guaranteeing his work on something like that after taking a look or refuse to do it. If not walk away...

[NightFlyer]

As far as repairing your existing block goes, you can check out this thread for a variety of good ideas:

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?8061-Block-coolant-leak&highlight=aluminum

To prevent future rot holes from forming, some suggest regularly cleaning the VOD, others have tried painting/sealing the VOD, etc. To date, I don't think I've ever seen anyone try alodining the VOD. Personally, this is my preferred try, and while I haven't alodined my VOD yet, I plan on doing so this winter hibernation.

[jangell]

My main concern is that I'm not entirely sure about my ability to successfully tear down my block and rebuild it. I'm OK with doing the cylinder heads, which wasn't nearly as difficult as I expected. I'm quite certain that I need to take much more of the engine apart to get out any debris that has fallen in through the hole (as Dave Swingle suggested). I have a friend whose brother welds aluminum, so he can probably take care of patching it for me (just have to figure out how to transport it to CT from MA).

I guess I'm taking the engine out no matter what, and I was thinking of taking it apart anyway just to learn more about it, although I had planned on waiting until after I had the car running again...

I don't suppose someone has a dummy's guide to rebuilding an engine, do they?

-- Joe

[David T]

My main concern is that I'm not entirely sure about my ability to successfully tear down my block and rebuild it. I'm OK with doing the cylinder heads, which wasn't nearly as difficult as I expected. I'm quite certain that I need to take much more of the engine apart to get out any debris that has fallen in through the hole (as Dave Swingle suggested). I have a friend whose brother welds aluminum, so he can probably take care of patching it for me (just have to figure out how to transport it to CT from MA).

I guess I'm taking the engine out no matter what, and I was thinking of taking it apart anyway just to learn more about it, although I had planned on waiting until after I had the car running again...

I don't suppose someone has a dummy's guide to rebuilding an engine, do they?

-- Joe

The Workshop Manual is about as good as it gets. It was written for someone with some experience but it is a step-by-step process. You will need some tools. You can always have a machine shop assemble it for you. When you disassemble you should label and keep the parts as they come out, ie, cylinder #1, liner #1, piston #1. Measure all the bearings and rings, they may be good enough to reuse but figure all new gaskets and seals.

[Ron]

+1

====
Go for it man! You are going to tear it down any way...it will be the same as with the cylinder heads...

[Josh]

Well, here is they guy that will suggest the 3.0... haha

My reasoning behind going with an eagle engine was ease of sourcing, cost, increased displacement, and updated fuel injection. This was considered after i decided I wanted to stick with a PRV, well at least for the time being.
You are going about this swap backwards to most people, which I consider to be beneficial. Usually people are not concerned about the mechanical portion but the wiring scares them. This is not the issue with you!

I will address your questions as they occur in the first post:

-The exhaust and starter will work on the 3.0. As for the cams, I do not think so, but send Josh at DPI a email/phone call and he will be able to clear that up in about a second. As for swapping the entire heads over, you are starting to make a hybrid engine. a member by the username of m_w is putting together an engine like this, perhaps he would be the guy to ask. however if you want to start swapping heads, i think you need to swap the crank to match as well which turns into a full rebuild. Don't quote me on this though, just some food for thought.

-The auto will bolt up just fine. The issue with automatics are that they cannot hold much power. I have heard anywhere between 200-250hp is what they can take. But as long as you don't boost the 3.0, you should be fine.

- You will need to do spark as well if you do the 3.0. Fuel connections are easy, two lines need to be made, I can provide drawings. The coolant lines hook up just as they would with the 2.8, both for the water pump and heater core.

QUESTIONS

-The Eagle and Monaco have the same engine. Just some badge engineering separates the cars. I am not sure of the model of the engine, but it is indeed not a b280f. There were mild changes between the engines, but the long block stayed the same from 88-92. Changes came mid 1990 and include: Distributor to coil pack ignition, different water pump, and higher impedance injectors.

-Like I said, the long block is the same, just the accessories change. the 1990+ engines had a funky water pump, the older style is used in our cars which you would need to buy new anyway. The distributor can easily be removed and capped (I have a little plate cut out that bolts to the timing cover) and a coil pack can be sourced from many vehicles. I pulled mine off of a dodge intrepid. With the coil pack you will need to run an EDIS6. There are a few cars running this setup, I can go into further detail later, but it plays very nice with MS. Or you can keep the distributor, but you still will need to install a crank position sensor as there are no outputs on the 3.0 distributor.

-Most people just use the engines as is. The advantage with the 3.0 is you can buy a running car for very little, and know the engine will run. They are pretty easy to come by so if one engine doesnt work out you can scrap it and move to the next one and not lose a fortune doing so. Delorean 2.8l engines are harder to come buy and demand a much higher dollar. Just to throw some numbers out there, I bought my engine for 200, but have seen some since for anywhere from free to 300.

-The actual mechanical swap is the reverse of taking the Delorean 2.8 out of the car. As far as the engine is concerned, you need to remove the valve covers, timing cover, oil pan, rear main seal cover, oil pan pickup and baffle, and the lower crankcase. I did not remove the heads or crank. This is all done to swap out the lower crank case. There are some while you are at it jobs too, like replacing the timing chains and guides, as well as gaskets and seals. It is very straight forward, especially if you take apart the 2.8 before hand for practice. I also have the complete set of workshop manuals for the 3.0 which i can scan if you go ahead with this. The lower crankcase must be angularly torqued properly. I have attached some pictures of the engine at various stages.

-The crank position sensor scared me as well initially. But I took some measurements and did some research and am currently drawing one up (see attached image). If you decide to go with the 3.0 I would gladly make one up for you and send it your way. same goes for any of the other special parts or brackets.

Edit: since you have an automatic you could possibly keep the 3.0 flexplate. The flex plate has a timing ring around the outside that the eagle crankshaft position sensor reads. However a provision for mounting the sensor would need to be made and it is not a trigger wheel pattern that MS recognizes. The only reason for using the stock trigger wheel is if you want to retain the factory eagle ecu (yuck!). As far as I know, you would be doing the first 3.0 automatic swap.

If you are installing MS anyway, I would strongly suggest the 3.0. You can easily source the engines for a reasonable price, and they come with all of the major fuel injection components already installed. They are larger displacement, so you will have a little more power as well, and that is always a good thing!

[jangell]

Well, here is they guy that will suggest the 3.0... haha

I was hoping that you would chime in. I really am interested in what is involved with a 3.0 swap.


My reasoning behind going with an eagle engine was ease of sourcing, cost, increased displacement, and updated fuel injection. This was considered after i decided I wanted to stick with a PRV, well at least for the time being.

I think my 2.8 with the exhaust and cam upgrades is probably in the 160 HP range (in theory; I've not tested it, but I'd hope I'm beyond the stock 130 HP at least). I do have an automatic, though, which as you said limits me to ~200 HP, so I don't really intend to do much more than that. Ease of doing EFI would be nice, although I already have Owen's "kit" (rails, brackets and idle air motor) for the 2.8.


You are going about this swap backwards to most people, which I consider to be beneficial. Usually people are not concerned about the mechanical portion but the wiring scares them. This is not the issue with you!

Exactly. Although that's a bit of a problem in and of itself -- it can be easier to find information on how to do things people don't know as well (like the engine electronics) because everyone else has already asked the questions and the information can be found with a quick Google search. With mechanical stuff, it's an issue of making sure that everything is safely re-assembled in the correct order with the correct torques with the correct gaskets and sealants in the right places with the right amounts of fluids. In theory it's just a matter of following the specs, but there's always those best practices that experienced mechanics know you should do but that newcomers don't. For example, "don't rotate the engine with the cylinder heads removed" is a piece of info I stumbled onto while doing some reading on forums, but I could see how it would be easy for someone with just the workshop manuals to miss that. That said, plethora of YouTube videos showing how to do all sorts of things have been very helpful in getting over that.

That said, I've found learning engine stuff easier than learning how to build electronics (capacitors, resistors, etc stuff, not just running some wires) -- it is annoyingly difficult to find good online information about electronics when you're just starting out and don't have a friend to guide you. By contrast, finding information on programming at any skill level is trivially simple, probably because that's about computers.

But I digress...


I will address your questions as they occur in the first post:

-The exhaust and starter will work on the 3.0.

Great, that was pretty much what I understood, but it's good to have confirmation.


As for the cams, I do not think so, but send Josh at DPI a email/phone call and he will be able to clear that up in about a second. As for swapping the entire heads over, you are starting to make a hybrid engine. a member by the username of m_w is putting together an engine like this, perhaps he would be the guy to ask. however if you want to start swapping heads, i think you need to swap the crank to match as well which turns into a full rebuild. Don't quote me on this though, just some food for thought.

I didn't really expect to swap the cams and heads. I figured the cams wouldn't work due to the odd/even thing, but the heads never even occurred to me. I'm fine with using the stock heads. It sounds like the stock 3.0 will put out about as much power as my upgraded 2.8 without messing with those bits.


-The auto will bolt up just fine. The issue with automatics are that they cannot hold much power. I have heard anywhere between 200-250hp is what they can take. But as long as you don't boost the 3.0, you should be fine.

I'll probably just stick with relatively simple engine updates, and not do any boost.


- You will need to do spark as well if you do the 3.0. Fuel connections are easy, two lines need to be made, I can provide drawings. The coolant lines hook up just as they would with the 2.8, both for the water pump and heater core.

That's great. I already started making fuel lines for my 2.8 EFI conversion (so far just enough to relocate the fuel filter to the engine bay), so I don't think that will be a problem for me to figure out.

I'm not too overly concerned about doing spark -- I want to eventually do that if I stick with the 2.8, but I was going to get fuel working first so I could do just one thing at a time. I don't expect it's a big deal to do everything at once if I'm go so far as to replace the entire engine.


QUESTIONS

-The Eagle and Monaco have the same engine. Just some badge engineering separates the cars. I am not sure of the model of the engine, but it is indeed not a b280f. There were mild changes between the engines, but the long block stayed the same from 88-92. Changes came mid 1990 and include: Distributor to coil pack ignition, different water pump, and higher impedance injectors.

Ok, so if I get a 91 or 92 I'll have the latest features. The only question might be: do I WANT the latest features? I know that a coil pack is "better" in the abstract, but is it better for this particular engine when doing MegaSquirt? I'm guessing the different water pump doesn't matter, and it sounds like I'd use low impedance injectors based with MS based on some other EFI threads.


-Like I said, the long block is the same, just the accessories change. the 1990+ engines had a funky water pump, the older style is used in our cars which you would need to buy new anyway.

My water current water pump is actually only ~3 years old.


The distributor can easily be removed and capped (I have a little plate cut out that bolts to the timing cover) and a coil pack can be sourced from many vehicles. I pulled mine off of a dodge intrepid.

I see, so you got a somewhat older engine but still decided to do a coil pack. I gather it would be easier to get a later model engine that already had coil packs? Or does it make more sense to get new parts anyway?


With the coil pack you will need to run an EDIS6. There are a few cars running this setup, I can go into further detail later, but it plays very nice with MS. Or you can keep the distributor, but you still will need to install a crank position sensor as there are no outputs on the 3.0 distributor.

I saw mention of the EDIS in the MS docs, and ignored it at the time because it didn't work with odd-fire engines.

The diagram you have for the crank position sensor looks like how I thought it would -- a missing tooth wheel on the crank pulley and the sensor mounted near it on the block. It seems straight-forward enough, anyway.


-Most people just use the engines as is. The advantage with the 3.0 is you can buy a running car for very little, and know the engine will run. They are pretty easy to come by so if one engine doesnt work out you can scrap it and move to the next one and not lose a fortune doing so. Delorean 2.8l engines are harder to come buy and demand a much higher dollar. Just to throw some numbers out there, I bought my engine for 200, but have seen some since for anywhere from free to 300.

It is hard to beat the price. I rent a 1 and 3/4 stall garage (the front of the second stall is boxed off for use by the owner), so I don't have anywhere to put a second car to pull the engine unless I do it on the street (I think I'll JUST have enough room to pull the DMC's engine out in the garage itself), so I don't think a running car will work for me. But picking up an engine from a junkyard should work, and hopefully they could tell me if it ran when it was brought in (maybe; I haven't really been to a junkyard before).


-The actual mechanical swap is the reverse of taking the Delorean 2.8 out of the car. As far as the engine is concerned, you need to remove the valve covers, timing cover, oil pan, rear main seal cover, oil pan pickup and baffle, and the lower crankcase. I did not remove the heads or crank. This is all done to swap out the lower crank case. There are some while you are at it jobs too, like replacing the timing chains and guides, as well as gaskets and seals. It is very straight forward, especially if you take apart the 2.8 before hand for practice. I also have the complete set of workshop manuals for the 3.0 which i can scan if you go ahead with this. The lower crankcase must be angularly torqued properly. I have attached some pictures of the engine at various stages.

I've taken the valve and timing covers off before, and the cylinder heads, so I'm familiar with those parts at last. I expect the other covers and pans aren't much different. Thanks for the details -- it helps a lot with understanding just what I need to do. A copy of the workshop manuals would be much appreciated if I do go this route.

I actually did get an angle torque tool when I was doing my cylinder heads, but then I learned of the alternate torquing method that's more commonly used and gave it to a friend. Guess I'll have to get it back. :)


-The crank position sensor scared me as well initially. But I took some measurements and did some research and am currently drawing one up (see attached image). If you decide to go with the 3.0 I would gladly make one up for you and send it your way. same goes for any of the other special parts or brackets.

That would be great -- thanks! My fabricating abilities don't go much further than cutting stock with a Dremel and drilling some holes with a hand-held power drill.


Edit: since you have an automatic you could possibly keep the 3.0 flexplate. The flex plate has a timing ring around the outside that the eagle crankshaft position sensor reads. However a provision for mounting the sensor would need to be made and it is not a trigger wheel pattern that MS recognizes. The only reason for using the stock trigger wheel is if you want to retain the factory eagle ecu (yuck!).

I'm pretty fuzzy on what the flex plate even is (sort of like how I knew _OF_ cams, but didn't really get it until I had the valve covers off and was removing them and the rocker arms from the engine). I'm fine with a trigger wheel on the main pulley; it seems like a pretty standard way of doing it on engines without built-in sensors.


As far as I know, you would be doing the first 3.0 automatic swap.

I went with the automatic because I didn't want to ruin a manual transmission learning how to drive it. Ironic, considering how many autos I've gone though...


If you are installing MS anyway, I would strongly suggest the 3.0. You can easily source the engines for a reasonable price, and they come with all of the major fuel injection components already installed. They are larger displacement, so you will have a little more power as well, and that is always a good thing!

This weekend I'm going to take off the rear of the car and prep for removing the engine and trans, although I'm not sure I'll get to that until the next weekend. I figure that once I have everything out I'll have a better idea of where I'm going.

Thanks!

-- Joe

[opethmike]

No, you do NOT want low impedance injectors with megasquirt. They require all sorts of screwing around with to get just right. Get high impedance injectors; only one defined, consistent set of parameters to set. No screwing around needed.

[jangell]

No, you do NOT want low impedance injectors with megasquirt. They require all sorts of screwing around with to get just right. Get high impedance injectors; only one defined, consistent set of parameters to set. No screwing around needed.

Sorry -- I got myself confused. My notes do indeed say high-impedance injectors. I'll have to make sure I actually refer to them before I order anything so that I don't make that mistake again. :)

-- Joe

[Josh]

Ah yes. One thing I am a little fuzzy on, thanks for pointing that out mike.

I beleive the older engines were low impedance and the newer ones where high impedance injectors.


Feel free to pm or ask any more questions Joe, I would love to help you out. I had a hell of a time tracking down information for my swap, so I know what it is like and would love to make it as easy as possible for you if you do decide to go this route.

[opethmike]

My Renault Z7U intake that I used for my EFI conversion came with the low impedance injectors that were stock to whatever Renault it came off of. Between them being of unknown condition, and low impedance, I just picked up a fresh set of Accel brand injectors.

[Josh]

yeah you can buy new ones easy enough. I think the information to pull from this is high impedance is the way to go!

I have not tried a regular ev1 injector but i think they will fit into the fuel rail/intake on the 3.0. But this is not confirmed, just from looking at pictures.

You can always punch a 92 eagle in rock auto and order the injectors. High impedance and be 100% sure of fitment.

[David T]

yeah you can buy new ones easy enough. I think the information to pull from this is high impedance is the way to go!

I have not tried a regular ev1 injector but i think they will fit into the fuel rail/intake on the 3.0. But this is not confirmed, just from looking at pictures.

You can always punch a 92 eagle in rock auto and order the injectors. High impedance and be 100% sure of fitment.



The good thing about the Delorean (Renault) auto box is that it has it's own electronics so you don't have to do anything about it to make it shift. You do need to hook into the neutral safety switch and provide power and back-up lights. If you are going "all the way" you should ditch the distributor so you can have full control over spark. That way you can change advance with your laptop and not a screwdriver. Wiring is not that hard, just concentrate on 1 wire at a time, Make sure you provide good grounding points for your wiring harness and secure it so it can't get damaged. Document everything so if, in the future, you have any problems or you want to make changes, you know what you did and what you have and where you got it. To optimize things you should align your advance curve with the shifting points of the auto trans. Also document all of your diagnostics once you have it all running well so you have a benchmark (restore point) of known, good, parameters. It is a LOT of work to do all of this and get it right.