solenoid starter problem

[delorean928]

Hi, I'm new to Deloreans after many years of dreaming to own one. What a fascinating exotic car!!! I just bought VIN # 3425 and have many things to fix on it. Among them a starter problem more precisely solenoid problem.
Hot or cold no difference. When I turn the key to start, most of the time I only hear the solenoid clicking. I try to start 3 to 4 times then the starter runs and the engine fires up. Sometimes it starts at first try.
I took out the starter that is new (changed by p.o.) it's the Paris made one. I disassembled the solenoid and fixed the contacts and turned them around. I was sure it was the problem but the problem is still there :(
I found this about a problem that sound exactly like mine : http://www.specialtauto.com/delorean-parts/images/starter-mod.jpg but it's for cars older than mine. My problem sounds exactly like there is not enough current to activate the solenoid correctly. I took this photo of the wires on the solenoid is it ok? I found somewhere that should be one more wire?

Any help appreciated

[sdg3205]

Check the ballast resistor against the rear firewall. Corrosion on the contact points (spade terminals) can cause starting issues. Sand, clean and try again!

See picture.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Check for that starter recall wiring even though you have a later vin. Some have found with late vins that it still had the original wiring.

How old is your battery? Also check the wire terminals that have the folded soldered terminals. I've found a few of those bad. Of course the grounds need to be good.

Welcome to the owner club.

[Rich]

When I turn the key to start, most of the time I only hear the solenoid clicking. I try to start 3 to 4 times then the starter runs and the engine fires up. Sometimes it starts at first try.
I took out the starter that is new (changed by p.o.) it's the Paris made one. I disassembled the solenoid and fixed the contacts and turned them around. I was sure it was the problem but the problem is still there

Yes, welcome to the forum.

Good description of the symptoms and efforts so far.

Regarding comments already made:

- Yes, be sure the relay wiring is per the recall or at least not like the early-VIN wiring.
- Yes, make sure the battery is OK (load-test it) and grounds are good.

If problem persists with known-good battery, good battery-frame ground, good engine-frame ground and correct relay wiring then replace the solenoid. The solenoid contact-flip-and-file trick does not always work. Or it doesn't work very long, depending on what's left of the contacts....

Hervey publishes a few generic jpgs about battery-starter troubleshooting. You've seen the one about the relay wiring.

PS, nice car collection list - Porsches, a D and a Checker - outstanding

[David T]

Yes, welcome to the forum.

Good description of the symptoms and efforts so far.

Regarding comments already made:

- Yes, be sure the relay wiring is per the recall or at least not like the early-VIN wiring.
- Yes, make sure the battery is OK (load-test it) and grounds are good.

If problem persists with known-good battery, good battery-frame ground, good engine-frame ground and correct relay wiring then replace the solenoid. The solenoid contact-flip-and-file trick does not always work. Or it doesn't work very long, depending on what's left of the contacts....

Hervey publishes a few generic jpgs about battery-starter troubleshooting. You've seen the one about the relay wiring.

PS, nice car collection list - Porsches, a D and a Checker - outstanding

It certainly could be a problem with the solenoid but you cannot rule out a problem with the starter. If the brushes are worn out or sticking it can cause the same symptom. Was the car ever flooded or driven through deep water? A quick test of the connections could be to use jumper cables to go directly from the battery to the starter for both the power AND the ground to rule out any bad connections.

[delorean928]

Thank's to all for your help and cool welcome :wave2:

The battery is brand new. I checked the ballasts resistors and the contacts are good and like new. Altough I included a photo where we can see that there are only 3 teminals connected. Is it normal??
I did'nt check the harness to no if the relay mod has been done yet. I worked at other places on the long list of to do's.
By the way the starter is new on my car.

Thank you Rich for your comment on my collection :)

[Rich]

I took this photo of the wires on the solenoid is it ok?

Did you check it against the wiring indicated on Hervey's site? http://www.specialtauto.com/....solenoid-back-wiring.jpg (http://www.specialtauto.com/delorean-parts/images/solenoid-back-wiring.jpg)

The solenoid itself looks different, though.....weird.

[delorean928]

I did'nt have the time yet but I like I said I have a very long list of 'to do's' and I found fuse #2 and #7 have heated enough to melt the terminals in the fuse block. Fuse #12 has been fixed already by p.o.
I also found that the relay for the fans have been replaced by 2 fuse sockets with 20 amp fuses each that look melted also. I must put that right before continuing to search around. I found that I've been lucky to travel 1000 kms on it's power to bring it back home!!!
What tickles me the most is that the car was described as mint!! (bullsh..) :eek7:

[Bitsyncmaster]

When your 20 amp fuses on the fans get hot, its time to replace your fan motors. It could be the PO ran 15 amp fuses and updated to 20 later so you may want to get a current measurement. You would most likely need a clamp on current meter since most DVMs have a 10 amp current limit.

[Ron]

:welcome:
(You might want to visit the introductions thread (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?1354-Introductions!))

In your first pic, the main solenoid stud looks like it could use a good cleaning.:o (old pic?)
The wiring has been modified, so I'd double check all connections, including at the battery along this line...

Yes, it looks like you are OK on the number of wires at the solenoid.
It is odd that the contacts would need turning around (suspect "new", and the starter brushes ;-) Solenoids usually outlast a starter or two. I agree it is a weird replacement...probably not the problem though. As a test, make sure the transmission is in Park/Neutral then jump power from the battery (+) to the White-Red terminal to eliminate a lack of voltage problem...checking that it hits every time.
The wiring at the resistor block is a common problem for "starting", but has nothing to do with the starter itself working.
Look for an extra wire at the fan speed thermal trip for an easy confirmation of the wiring recall fix...it should be on the hot (not "fused" side).

[delorean928]

Thank's a lot guys for your help and precious infos. I'll continue to check and fix after tomorrow. I think the lack of voltage could be a good reason the spotted starter contact. To short the battery wire with the white and red is a good idea.
By the way I am gladly surprised to see how people are friendly and helping on this forum. I surfed and used many car forums in 13 years of car restoring passion and this one is one of the best if not 'the best'.

Thank's again. I'll let you know the progression of solving of this problem.

[Ron]

I think the lack of voltage could be a good reason the spotted starter contact. To short the battery wire with the white and red is a good idea.

Usually it's due to a bad connection (loose, dirty when installed, etc).

[delorean928]

Confirmed : my starting solenoïd problem is due to a lack of voltage. I had the time to run a test yesterday night by shorting the red and white wire with the Red wire coming from the battery and the solenoïd engages the starter well every time. I'll check the wiring later this weekend. I replaced fuse holder # 2 and # 7. The fuse block had melted. The p.o. already replaced fuse holder # 12.

[delorean928]

Is it possible that the solenoid itself draws too much current???
I just made many tests. When I put an alligator clip jumper directly on the terminal of the solenoid with the white and red wire and the battery cable, the starter turns everytime.
If I put a long (10 foot) #18 gage wire between positive terminal of the battery and the solenoid white and red, the starter does'nt turn.
If I use the circuitry of the car by putting some good 12v at the starter relay on the white and red wire that goes to the solenoid, it does'nt start either :confused0:
I even try to disconnect the cold start valve that is driven along with the solenoid and the starter turns once in a while, like if it leaves more current to the solenoid :confused0:
And yes the battery is good, I even tried to put 2 batteries in parralel

[delorean928]

I will try to change my engine ground braid and disassemble the starter and solenoid again to check if the bendix moves freely. I also checked about the modification : http://www.specialtauto.com/delorean-parts/images/starter-mod.jpg and it's ok

[delorean928]

Could someone tell me what relay is in the middle of the included image of the schematic please? And what does it do?

[Rich]

Again, per post #7 in this thread, check your solenoid to be sure it's OEM-style and is wired correctly.

From your post #1 photo the external shunt seems to be on the wrong side of the solenoid?

Recommending a NOS-style solenoid and stock-OEM wiring to the solenoid. The OEM Paris-Rhone starters work fine when they are set up correctly.

Seems that one of your PO's took a shortcut with the solenoid or starter, or both, that has you in a tough spot.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Ten feet of 18 AWG wire is probably causing a voltage drop. Solenoids take a large current (guess 10 to 30 amps) to pull in then the current is reduced to hold the starter engaged. There have been a few new starters people have found that have the wires on the wrong terminals.

[Ron]

Could someone tell me what relay is in the middle of the included image of the schematic please? And what does it do?It is an Ignition Resistor Bypass Relay. The White wire brings 12V to the dual Resistor Block and the Relay when the key is in the Run position, current must flow through both resistors on the way to the Ignition Coil. When the key in in the Start position, the Starter Solenoid is energized and passes current to the Relay along the Blue/Yellow wire at 12 O'clock. This energizes the Relay, which then connects the White wire and Blue/Yellow wire at 3 O'Clock, which passes current on to the junction between the two Resistors, bypassing one. This is done to raise the voltage to the Ignition Coil during extremely cold temperatures. (As previously said, it "...has nothing to do with the starter itself working.")

Did you try David's suggestion? ... Pull the coil wire. Using GOOD jumper cables, bring power from the Battery (+) to the Starter Solenoid's main terminal (Connect to the nut to prevent ruining the copper threads!), and, Battery (-) directly to the Starter's casing, then try the Key. If that don't work, with the cables still connected, CAREFULLY jump from the Starter Solenoid's main terminal to the terminal with the White/Red wire (non-strapped terminal). If that doesn't work, your starter-solenoid (or battery) must be bad.

[delorean928]

It is an Ignition Resistor Bypass Relay. The White wire brings 12V to the dual Resistor Block and the Relay when the key is in the Run position, current must flow through both resistors on the way to the Ignition Coil. When the key in in the Start position, the Starter Solenoid is energized and passes current to the Relay along the Blue/Yellow wire at 12 O'clock. This energizes the Relay, which then connects the White wire and Blue/Yellow wire at 3 O'Clock, which passes current on to the junction between the two Resistors, bypassing one. This is done to raise the voltage to the Ignition Coil during extremely cold temperatures. (As previously said, it "...has nothing to do with the starter itself working.")

Did you try David's suggestion? ... Pull the coil wire. Using GOOD jumper cables, bring power from the Battery (+) to the Starter Solenoid's main terminal (Connect to the nut to prevent ruining the copper threads!), and, Battery (-) directly to the Starter's casing, then try the Key. If that don't work, with the cables still connected, CAREFULLY jump from the Starter Solenoid's main terminal to the terminal with the White/Red wire (non-strapped terminal). If that doesn't work, your starter-solenoid (or battery) must be bad.


Thank's for complete explanation. Thank's to Dave and Rich too!
What I did as a test is the same than David's suggestion is'nt it? I tried to jump the white and red wire at the solenoid with the Red huge cable beside it and it starts every time. If I do the same but at the other end of the white and red wire (at the starting relay socket with relay remove) it does'nt get enough current to start.
I was asking about the unknown relay on schematic cause I wanted to know what the blue and yellow wire at the solenoid was used for?? Where do the solenoid gets it's negative 12volts? from it's casing like the starter?
Rich, what configuration of wires at the solenoid would you recommand? I don't think solenoids are sold separatly? I think this one came with the Paris Rhone starter did'nt it?
Thank's again for your patience and time :)

[Ron]

Thank's for complete explanation. Thank's to Dave and Rich too!
What I did as a test is the same than David's suggestion is'nt it? I tried to jump the white and red wire at the solenoid with the Red huge cable beside it and it starts every time. If I do the same but at the other end of the white and red wire (at the starting relay socket with relay remove) it does'nt get enough current to start.
I was asking about the unknown relay on schematic cause I wanted to know what the blue and yellow wire at the solenoid was used for?? Where do the solenoid gets it's negative 12volts? from it's casing like the starter?
Rich, what configuration of wires at the solenoid would you recommand? I don't think solenoids are sold separatly? I think this one came with the Paris Rhone starter did'nt it?
Thank's again for your patience and time :)No, the way you did it doesn't bypass (assist) the factory ground (to eliminate it as the problem).
Since you can jump the white and red wire at the solenoid with the Red huge cable beside it and it starts every time, but it does not start when you jump the other end of the white and red wire (at the starting relay socket with relay remove), either your White/Red wire and/or its terminal ends are bad, or, the solenoid needs too much power and is on the way out (not as likely but very possible)...repeat the test with the case connected directly to the battery (-) via a cable...
Yes, the solenoid gets its ground from the case AND through the other large solenoid terminal (connected to the starter, via its brushes). ....The solenoid actually has two windings inside. There are some PR solenoids that ground via the "other small terminal" to energize, but it doesn't look like you have one of those to me, IIRC, and it would not work as you described, unless the internals were assembled incorrectly...

IMHO, you still need to do the test in the previous post...it is conclusive.

[delorean928]

I did try to put a jumper cable between the body of the starter and the negative battery pole and by turning the key to activate the solenoid. It was better but not as effective than to jump the solenoid terminals. After that test I saw that the braided ground strap was worn a bit and I decided like I mentioned to change it to give it more chance but I don't think it will solve the problem completly. Sorry I forgot to mention that I did the ground test. What is the use of the other wire on the solenoid(blue and yellow)? Can it influence the solenoid behavior?

[Bitsyncmaster]

Try removing and plugging in the bulkhead connectors. If that fixes the problem you have a bad connection there. That little trick cleans the pins and moves the wires a little.

[Ron]

I did try to put a jumper cable between the body of the starter and the negative battery pole and by turning the key to activate the solenoid. It was better but not as effective than to jump the solenoid terminals. After that test I saw that the braided ground strap was worn a bit and I decided like I mentioned to change it to give it more chance but I don't think it will solve the problem completly. Sorry I forgot to mention that I did the ground test.
Just for GP, I would do it again to insure that the new strap is the only improvement you can make for ground....



What is the use of the other wire on the solenoid(blue and yellow)? Can it influence the solenoid behavior?It is the wire mentioned in post 19 (at 12 O'Clock)...triggers the ignition bypass.
Note: This does not show in most schematics and there are more than one version of the wiring harness. You can leave it off until you get the starter figured out... Unless it is shorted, it should have no effect on the starter operation...

[delorean928]

I got it!!!
GEEE I hate the p.o.!!
After making the same tests with negative directly to the starter and all the possible electrical tests, I decided to pull out the starter again and to study it. The frist time I opened the solenoid I grinded and cleaned the contacts that were spotted and they were beginning to spot again after only a couple of starting and a few tests??? The starter is almost new but I don't know what the p.o. or he's suppose to be mechanic did with it. The travel of the solenoid plunger is not long enough to push the composite rod that pushes the huge starter copper contact. I think it's not the solenoid that was coming with this starter. a 1/4 of an inch is missing !!! I should'nt be surprise that the car did'nt start I should be surprise that it start!! When it was starting the contact was probably sticking with the rebound of the plunger and that explains why it was beginning to spot again.
I'll ask my expert welder tomorrow to see if it's possible to delicatly weld a 1/4 of an inch spacer at the end of the plunger to push the contact correctly. It will save many $$$
The last test I made before the solenoid disassemble was to put directly the 12 v from the battery to the starter and only the bendix was coming out. The starter did'nt spin.
Thank's again for your precious help.

[Rich]

....I think it's not the solenoid that was coming with this starter. a 1/4 of an inch is missing.....I'll ask my expert welder tomorrow to see if it's possible to delicatly weld a 1/4 of an inch spacer at the end of the plunger to push the contact correctly. It will save many $$$

Good luck on the workaround.

Hervey sells NOS starter solenoids for $70 + core, assuming what you have left over is still a core. Other vendors may also offer the solenoid-only.

[Ron]

Are you sure the fork was on the bendix correctly when you put the solenoid back on?

[delorean928]

Are you sure the fork was on the bendix correctly when you put the solenoid back on?

Yes it looks correctly positioned thank's

Thank you Rich for the info about solenoids sold separately. It will be my plan B altough there could be a risk tahat it would not fit with my starter!!

[delorean928]

I just had my starter back from my expert who welded a small piece of steel at the end of the plunger of the solenoid for it to travel 1/4 of inch further so it would push the contact well and the result:
F-I-N-E. Ut starts every time with no hesitation and it has cost me $0 :drummer:

Thank'S to all for your help :)