New DeLorean panels

[Roman Legion]

I was recently reading an article about how LA Customs built a car from scratch out of Grand Theft Auto and to make the car in real life, they had to make custom panels. I got to thinking about why DMC doesn't just recover from the casts being destroyed in the 80's by making new ones so they can produce new panels. I think it's a great idea and might save a few cars from being parted out just because someone needs that new front panel on their beloved D.

You can read the article below.

http://www.rockstargames.com/newswire/article/51297/rockstar-and-west-coast-customs-present-the-2013-gtav-bravado-ba.html

Maybe my idea is stupid, but I feel it's worth a shot posting here since those who can make this happen in one of the various DMC locations and other shop owners here could get more information from LA customs and it might benefit all DeLorean owners.

[Tillsy]

For sure it can be done, for more money than anyone would likely make back...

[Kenny_Z]

It's very possible to do but it's not cost effective. Plus, I think the Banshee panels are fiberglass hinted at by the phrase "hand laid".

[vwdmc16]

Right, that was one custom handmade car that was probably a dodge viper with new fiberglass panels, hard work but very cheap to do compared to getting steel stamping dies which can cost over a $100k to make just one die that can constantly make useable panels like a lff. Quite a huge investment for a very small market.

Now if i was a super millionaire i would go up to Detroit witcool million bucks, buy an old tool factory for $572 or what ever those old warehouses go for nowadays and hire a bunch of unemployed workers to build dies, then reproduce a bunch new panels that i would sell for $100.

Oh to dream...

[Kenny_Z]

You wouldn't even need to get a warehouse in Detroit. Places like the company my father works for can build dies and stamp parts. Their largest press is either 500 or 800 tons and they stamp stainless all the time. Needless to say the guys that work there find Red fascinating. Just pay for the die and have them stamp the parts but you'll never get the cost of the die alone out of the market for LFFs let alone the rest of the car.

While we're on the topic, say some millionaire wanted to do what VWDMC said above and repop panels. Would they have to get DMCH permission? There are both Ford Licensed and unlicensed parts for classic Mustangs. The licensed are stamped from the original Ford dies. The unlicensed are stamped from a modern die produced from measuring an original fender. As far as I know the patent is expired on those fenders so they don't need permission. Is it the same with the DMC-12?

[vwdmc16]

That's a good question.could dmch even object to the the repro of new panels. Perhaps if a feel was struck wthem they would support It.

[Delorean Industries]

Nobody owns the parts to the car. Anyone can make anything that they would like. Dmc uses the name and one of the stylized logo designs. I think everyone gives them a little too much credit. They do not own the physical styling of the car. Any of us can make body panels if we wanted. Just not practical at this time.

[Rob Greenhaw]

Could 3D printing used effectively in this regard? What about creating a mold to create a stamp from?

I've been curious about 3D printing in regards to making some of the old parts that are rare & out of stock.

[ccurzio]

Could 3D printing used effectively in this regard?

If you want a non-metal panel, sure.

[Kenny_Z]

I was curious so I did some digging. The law used to be that an aftermarket company could not reproduce crash parts for the first 14 years of a car model's life. The aftermarket industry wanted to change this to 2.5 years back in July of 2012. I'm not sure if it succeeded yet but doesn't really matter for this discussion.

I didn't know where the year cutoff was or even if the panel's patents went to DMCH. I just remembered that there were patents on crash parts because of working on my own cars, both modern and not.

[Dangermouse]

Remember the guy in Ireland that hand made a set of SS panels for an art project/exhibition? I think he just started with sheet steel and slowly hammered them out.

Dmcjohn posted a link to his work a couple of months ago but I don't recall how long each panel took.

So it can certainly be done without hydraulic presses etc. just not very quickly.

[David T]

Limited quantities can be made off of a wooden "buck". Very time consuming because it is labor intensive. Done for "one of's" , concept and design examples. For mass production stamping is the way to go. For starters some of the issues are set-up and press time. You are not going to use up a day to set up a press to run 10 panels. You would have to buy a lot of metal and you would want to use it all. Now you have to store that whole run till you sell it all. You have a LOT of money tied up in metal, die charges, press time and storage. No one who looks at this will think it is a good investment of financial resources. Still too cheap to buy a panel or fix one up. Parts cars come along all the time. If you are that worried about limited parts there are others you should be more concerned about like torsion bars or TABs or headlight switches.

[LordFly]

Could 3D printing used effectively in this regard? What about creating a mold to create a stamp from?

I've been curious about 3D printing in regards to making some of the old parts that are rare & out of stock.

Hmm, I wonder if you might be on to something.... 3D printing in stainless is completely do-able. Hell, you can order prints from SHAPEWAYS (http://www.shapeways.com/materials/steel) in stainless steel. I'm not sure what their size limits are, but I'm sure other companies could do it. Things like doors and hoods might be a little on the large side, but I bet a LFF could be done.

[TTait]

Growing stainless in a 3D printer, or sintering, does not produce the same alloys as one would normally hope for in stainless. I have read somewhere that they would be prone to rusting.

[Tillsy]

Just need to get to a point where 3D printers can print a better 3D printer, and they'll rapidly evolve to printing entire cars before we know it ;)

[Exolis]

The Original dies are most likely deteriorated to the point of being non-salvageable. A 3D Printer could not be used to make a die as the die its self has different segments in which a number of bends, punches and such are needed for the die.

The production of Dies is the most expensive part of the vehicle's project life cycle, so it would be a huge investment for DMCH or someone else to try to reproduce it. Not to mention there could be a lot of regulation issues if a new die were to be made unless whoever is building it sweet talks it's way out of it. Because building new panels and potentially more, the government could see it as a new vehicle being produced. If a new vehicle is being built, it's likely it has to follow safety regulations and such. So there would have to be quite a bit of legal work done to classify the work as reproduction only and in no way would it be a "New" vehicle.

Granted I am not in body engineering nor do I have a legal degree, from my knowledge on Body Engineering, Tool and Die and Vehicle Regulations; it could easily turn into a huge and expensive undertaking.

[Kenny_Z]

I think you could get away with a die for the LFF without the government getting involved. You could probably also do a grooved hood die. When you start looking at producing panels that there isn't a shortage of you'll probably catch some official's eye. I was surprised that the fiberglass tub reproduction didn't catch some government heat. It's arguably the most structurally important part of a DeLorean and isn't the same as duplicating a frame. It's a new material produced a different way from the original.

[Kenny_Z]

Also, a 3d printed stainless panel isn't the same as a stamped panel. The 3d printing process is flakes of stainless that are glued together. That's obviously nothing like a fully on stainless sheet of metal.

[Nicholas R]

Not necessarily glued; they're sintered together. It is a fused bond, but yes, not a strong as pure SS and there is obviously no grain structure.

[AirmanPika]

Nobody owns the parts to the car. Anyone can make anything that they would like. Dmc uses the name and one of the stylized logo designs. I think everyone gives them a little too much credit. They do not own the physical styling of the car. Any of us can make body panels if we wanted. Just not practical at this time.

You raise a good point, but I do wonder if DMCH actually owns more than just the name/logo design. Is there any proof or documentation that they DON'T own the patents to the physical design? Even if its just a general representation, that's all they might need. They don't have to own a patent to each specific panel. We do have a resident patent office employee here who could prolly help with that answer :)

[ccurzio]

You raise a good point, but I do wonder if DMCH actually owns more than just the name/logo design. Is there any proof or documentation that they DON'T own the patents to the physical design? Even if its just a general representation, that's all they might need. They don't have to own a patent to each specific panel. We do have a resident patent office employee here who could prolly help with that answer :)

The patents for the car's design (D283882) died with the original company. Pretty much every patent filed by DMC is long lapsed for not paying the maintenance fees.

[David T]

The patents for the car's design (D283882) died with the original company. Pretty much every patent filed by DMC is long lapsed for not paying the maintenance fees.


Irrespective of any prior rights no one can stop you from making parts that fit on a Delorean. Do people that make wiper blades or light bulbs, tires, struts, dash mats, and everything else pay anyone for the right to sell parts? That is not what is stopping anyone from making body panels. It just is not financially viable. That is the ONLY reason. Now if you made a part with the DMC logo you *might* have a problem but that is not the case with most parts. As long as the parts being sold are clearly identified as reproduction no one can stop you.

[ccurzio]

Irrespective of any prior rights no one can stop you from making parts that fit on a Delorean.

I agree with you. Not sure why you think I'm making a different point. :)

[LordFly]

According to Google's Patent Section (https://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=pts&hl=en&q=inassignee:%22DeLorean+Motor+Company%22), the original DMC looks to have only filed 2 patents. One for the car, and one for the wheels used on Proto 1 ;)

[john 05141]

Even if the dies are damaged, I'm sure they can be restored cheaper than building new ones, but you cannot just raise those old dies from the seabed, they're "owned" by a fishing company. I read that the dies are in a remarkable good shape too.
If you do so, the value of the panels comes down significantly. I'm sure DMC tought about that but likely discoverd instantly it is not worth the cost and the effort. It would make a great show on the news tough :tongue2: great publicity. Immagine the headlines. Old Maggy is not there anymore to stop them either.
There is likely not a market for so many new panels anyway.

I wonder why they never made molds for carbon fibre panels which would look very sleek on the D's and is a way better alternative than painting. (you could create a thin shell to glue over the doors as this one would be more difficult to replace a whole door from SS to carbon.) Molds for fibre glass are cheap.
But look at it this way; you have a panel on your car that is worth quite some money. I have a very good condition delorean, but when I would put my car up for sale, I would seriously consider taking it apart and sell it in pieces, it will get you a lot more money than in one piece!! That calculation is made rather quickly too.

Jan

[David T]

Even if the dies are damaged, I'm sure they can be restored cheaper than building new ones, but you cannot just raise those old dies from the seabed, they're "owned" by a fishing company. I read that the dies are in a remarkable good shape too.
If you do so, the value of the panels comes down significantly. I'm sure DMC tought about that but likely discoverd instantly it is not worth the cost and the effort. It would make a great show on the news tough :tongue2: great publicity. Immagine the headlines. Old Maggy is not there anymore to stop them either.
There is likely not a market for so many new panels anyway.

I wonder why they never made molds for carbon fibre panels which would look very sleek on the D's and is a way better alternative than painting. (you could create a thin shell to glue over the doors as this one would be more difficult to replace a whole door from SS to carbon.) Molds for fibre glass are cheap.
But look at it this way; you have a panel on your car that is worth quite some money. I have a very good condition delorean, but when I would put my car up for sale, I would seriously consider taking it apart and sell it in pieces, it will get you a lot more money than in one piece!! That calculation is made rather quickly too.

Jan

Yes, as the price of the parts climbs it will raise the price of derelict parts cars for their "bones". Eventually that source will dry up. As the price gets higher everyone who is hoarding parts will start selling. Even that source will dry up. It will become economical to repair the "unrepairable" panels. For the foreseeable future there will be a source of parts.

[David T]

If DMC was around today they would be trying other things. I agree carbon fiber could be one of the choices. Others possibilities include plastic, fiberglass, very thin painted steel and aluminum. One of the possible programs that were intended was an exchange program for painted steel panels. You would drop the car off in the morning and drive it home later a different colored car! You got credit for your old panels depending on their condition. Since all of the panels bolt on no welding is required. One of the original intentions was the car should last a lot longer then what was generally accepted at the time. JZD knew many cars were sold only because the owners got tired of them, not because they were worn out. His idea was if you could repanel the car with different colors owners would keep the cars longer. One thing that might limit panel choices is crashworthiness standards.

[jamesrguk]

I've always thought unpainted carbon fibre panels would be a 'natural' progression from bare stainless.

It would be interesting to know the weight saving would be over the whole vehicle, the doors alone would I'm sure be significantly lighter, coupled to a carbon fibre tub and alloy chassis maybe the PRV engine would suddenly have a chance!

J