Mileage questions

[Rich_NYS]

I searched "mileage" in the forum and read the posts I found, but haven't found what I'm looking for.

I'm reading & understanding about odometers not being a reliable indicator, but I don't see much talk about concerns of high mileage and the effects on an engine. Should I not have the same concerns for engine trouble with a DeLorean as I would with other cars?

My Dad & I recently looked at a DeLorean and his concern was how the car appeared to have more miles than shown on the odometer (and possibly that many more miles of neglected maintenance.) For argument's sake, what if the odometer has been rolled over and there's actually 100K + whatever is shown?

Come to think of it, aside from the engine swaps, I haven't read many "I gotta replace my engine" posts.

Is the PRV one of those "bulletproof" types?

Thanks for your opinions!

[DMCVegas]

I searched "mileage" in the forum and read the posts I found, but haven't found what I'm looking for.

I'm reading & understanding about odometers not being a reliable indicator, but I don't see much talk about concerns of high mileage and the effects on an engine. Should I not have the same concerns for engine trouble with a DeLorean as I would with other cars?

My Dad & I recently looked at a DeLorean and his concern was how the car appeared to have more miles than shown on the odometer (and possibly that many more miles of neglected maintenance.) For argument's sake, what if the odometer has been rolled over and there's actually 100K + whatever is shown?

Come to think of it, aside from the engine swaps, I haven't read many "I gotta replace my engine" posts.

Is the PRV one of those "bulletproof" types?

Thanks for your opinions!

There are many PRVs that are in the hundred thousand mile plus range. I know about 10 years ago there was one guy who had 350,000 + on his DeLorean with no problems.

The biggest enemy of any engine is going to be overheating and neglect when it comes to oil changes. When you overheat, you tear the head gasket at best, and can warp the cylinder head at worst.

Now some engines are known to have problems after hitting certain amounts of miles. The two that come to mind are the Mazda Renesis Rotary, and the old Chrysler 2.5 OHC engines. In both cases, it's design problems. Like with the Chrysler block, the thermostat housing on in the middle of the head, rather than that the higher end. Air bubbles get trapped, steam builds, and those engines wear down their gaskets. GM engines tend to use silicone gaskets that doesn't play well with DEXCOOL, so they'll have lots of problems there on certain blocks.

The PRV is a damn decent engine, so long as with any engine you take care of it. Me? I got lazy, neglected to properly bleed my cooling system after swapping the water pump, and BOOM! I gotta replace MY engine. Luckily I have a spare long block and an understanding wife... But in my case it wasn't the car, but me that was the problem.

[NightFlyer]

Angle drives are somewhat notorious for going bad on DeLoreans, and when they stop working, the odometer stops turning. Another issue that crops up is the slipping and eventual failure of the plastic cap that secures the cable to the front driver's side hub, thereby preventing the cable from turning and the odometer from working. Finally, the lambda counter can jam/fail, thereby preventing the upper cable from turning and the odometer from working. While a mechanism failure in the binnacle is possible (as anything is) it's highly improbable and I'm personally not familiar of a single case of this happening. Note that under each of these conditions, the speedometer and tripometer will also fail to operate.

Verifying the true mileage of some DeLoreans can be difficult because of the relative fragility of the above referenced parts. Checking through previous owner repair/driving records (when available) and running a title check on the car may help to provide some insight as to whether or not the displayed mileage is accurate or provide clues as to a reasonable ball park estimate if not accurate.

That's why unless you're looking for an true investment/collectable grade car, mileage really isn't a huge consideration - it's really all about condition.

Looks can also be deceiving. Many of the parts and materials comprising the car are comparatively fragile and don't age well under even moderate use situations unless attentively and properly cared for by the owner. Just a little neglect can produce horrid results. Thus it's not uncommon to see true relatively low mileage cars appearing as one would expect a higher mileage car with a lot of wear under it's belt to appear. The best way to preserve a DeLorean is to treat it as if it were fragile, as compared to new cars or even many contemporaries, it really kind of is, and yet, it's not all that different than many other contemporary exotics (ie Porsche 928, Ferrari 328, Lambo Countach and Jalpa, Chevy Corvette, etc). The converse is also true - you could have a car with 150k on the clock with everything looking like new still provided that the owner(s) pampered and properly cared for the car.

Compared to other exotics, the relatively low entry price into DeLorean ownership has created a somewhat unique situation in the collector car world. Whereas there are not many Countach's that are allowed to sit neglected and deteriorate into a pile of junk, there are many DeLoreans that have suffered such a fate because of the financial positions of the owners (or lack thereof). And because of the relatively low prices of the cars, there wasn't much of an incentive for first/second owners to really pamper and want to preserve them. However, there were also many DeLoreans that were purchased new and then squirled away by the original and second owners under the hope that they would constitute an appreciable asset/investment. While some of those cars were properly stored, many weren't.

As to the reputation of the PRV, DMCVegas pretty much summed it up spot on - they're very reliable, dependable, and will practically run indefinitely when properly taken care of. However, mass engine aluminum casting was somewhat still in it's infancy when the PRV was introduced to the market, and thus the materials used and inherent build qualities aren't as resilient as a modern all aluminum engine will be. The rear engine placement also acts to exacerbate certain conditions upon a system(s) failure situation. Whereas an all aluminum Cadillac Northstar V8 will run 100 miles without coolant in the system, just a few miles of running a DeLorean dry and hot can cause disastrous results necessitating an engine replacement.

If you're doubting the displayed mileage on the car, the best way to check the age/wear of the PRV is to perform a simple compression check on the cylinders before making a purchase decision.

So, there you have my $.02 worth...

[Dangermouse]

Mr Linkstate91 (any chance of a first name?)

It seems to be generally accepted that the mileage shown in an ad has a good chance of being wrong, just because of the above mentioned angle-drive problem. (I also see many owners fessing up to this when listing the car, as everyone understands the problem, and know that no deception is intended). Having said that, I wouldn't expect it to be more than a couple of thousand miles off, as most owners get it fixed fairly quickly because it means you don't have a speedo either.

I can't say I have heard of an owner replacing their engine because it was worn out, with the exception of jackB whose 300+k car was just upgraded at DPI. As Robert implies, engine failures are often accidental (and can happen at any age) or seized due to poor storage over a number of years.

A car with 111k miles that has been regularly driven will probably give you less problems than one with 11k that has just been retrieved from someones garage and "ran when parked 15 years ago"

[rdarlington]

My Dad & I recently looked at a DeLorean and his concern was how the car appeared to have more miles than shown on the odometer (and possibly that many more miles of neglected maintenance.) For argument's sake, what if the odometer has been rolled over and there's actually 100K + whatever is shown?


Look for signs of wear on the pedals, the brake rotors/pads, tires, etc. Title checks can also help. First thing I did when I got mine was spend a couple hours looking it over, both on the ground and up on a lift. The pedals looked like new. Title check showed to be consistent with the odometer reading (3388 when I got it), the lambda counter was at 11% (of 30,000), and the speedometer was working. Look at the carpet, wear on the pulleys where they get rubbed with the belts.

Of course, a 4000 mile car will look different than a 40,000 mile car, but you won't see much difference between 40,000 and 60,000.

-Bob

[louielouie2000]

Regarding DeLoreans with over 100,000 miles... they're pretty rare birds. It's not because the cars aren't capable of that kind of mileage, it's that most of these vehicles have been mothballed for long stretches of their lives. After DMC went under in 1982, and dealers stopped honoring the cars service contracts, many owners simply stopped driving their cars. They were afraid of being able to procure parts and service for their DeLoreans, so they simply parked them. Sometimes for decades. The cars that do have over 100,000 miles seem to run better than those with 1/10th that mileage. Why? Because they have been kept running... European fuel injected cars don't tolerate sitting. Just so long as a DeLorean has been maintained properly, it'll last for hundreds of thousands of miles. I can think of a half dozen cars off the top of my head which have over 300,000 miles on them. The PRV's biggest enemy is basically the aluminum block. It doesn't tolerate being overheated particularly well, and with the DeLorean having such extensive cooling system routing, it's just something you have to be vigilant about. The aluminum block also tends to rot out under the intake manifold in the engine valley. However, there seems to be strong evidence that this is linked to cars which have sat outside for much of their lives and not driven. Water collects in casting pockets of the engine, and when the engine isn't run & the water allowed to evaporate off, the engine block corrodes. Once the block has corroded through to the oil passageway, the engine is done. This has become an increasingly common problem in DeLoreans the past 10 years.

Regarding this particular car you're looking at appearing rough for it's mileage, again, that's a common DeLorean thing. Many DeLoreans sat outside for long stretches in the early '80s waiting to find buyers. Likewise, once the cars did find buyers & started encountering problems, which many owners couldn't conquer because of lack of service & parts support, many DeLoreans were parked out in the elements. Combine this with the poor quality trim materials used on DeLoreans, and you start to see why so many of these vehicles look so rough when they have only a few thousand miles on their odometers. To drive the point home, DeLoreans apparently utilize furniture grade upholstery trim on their seats vs using automotive grade, which is far higher quality. Think about how vehicles sit out in the sun, have rapid & constant temperature & humidty changes because of climate control systems, how human butts drag on the seats getting in and out of the cars constantly, etc. Now compare this to the relatively stable & consistent environment your leather couch enjoys. This is why original DeLorean seats almost always look like crap. Not to mention the other trim pieces like the binnacle, dash, and a-pillar covers were sourced from the likes of Chrysler... the bottom of the barrell when it comes to interior trim quality & longevity.

[NightFlyer]

The cars that do have over 100,000 miles seem to run better than those with 1/10th that mileage. Why? Because they have been kept running...

That's not necessarily true, unless you're referring to completely non-running cars. Any low-mileage car that's running decently upon inspection/sale has always seemed to be running just as good as any high-mileage car that I've ever seen. Personally, I really don't believe mileage to be all that much of a factor one way of the other. High, low, in the middle - it only really matters where you're looking for collector/investment grade, in which case, lower miles will almost certainly always increase the value, all else being equal. Just make sure that you do your due diligence when inspecting the vehicle - a lengthy test drive is necessary with any used car IMHO, and especially a DeLorean.

Any that I've ever test drove, I made sure to keep it out on the road for anywhere from 40 to 90 minutes, running it through the gauntlet of typically encountered conditions, making sure that it gets nice and hot, stopping and starting the engine a few times (to check hot start), etc. Give the owner a couple bucks for gas or even stop at a filling station and put a few gallons into the car before returning it, as doing so can be advantegous to you when negotiating a price (or at least in my experiences, when you're respectful and polite to private party sellers, they tend to be more apt to negotiate to the terms of sale that you want). Plan on spending at least an hour further inspecting the car after your test drive so that you can check for any leaks that may crop up from underneath.

It usually takes me around 3-5 hours total to drive and fully check everything that I want to check on a car that I'm considering purchasing. Simply taking a DeLorean for a quick ride around the block isn't going to tell you much - unless of course you like potential surprises. If you're concerned about engine wear, insist upon or perform a compression check on the cylinders - it's non-invasive and typically takes less than an hour to fully perform a check of all 6 cylinders. Bring the tools that you'll need to access and perform such a check with you if dealing with a private party seller.


Not to mention the other trim pieces like the binnacle, dash, and a-pillar covers were sourced from the likes of Chrysler... the bottom of the barrell when it comes to interior trim quality & longevity.

Ummm yeah, again going to have to adamantly disagree here about Chrysler of the era being the bottom of the barrel of interior trim. I'm curious as to how you qualify and support such an assertion. I've junk yarded and been around cars (more than just washing and riding in them) since I was 6 years old, and from my personal observations, I'd have to say that the interiors of Chryslers from the early '80's fared no better or worse than GM or Ford interiors of the era. If anything, I'd have to say that Ford interiors of the era were the worst of the three as far as quality and longevity go, but not by very much...

[Rich_NYS]

Mr Linkstate91 (any chance of a first name?)

Sorry about that, my name is Rich.....very glad to be here.


There's alot of helpful info here, thanks for the responses! I'm going to digest what I'm reading, then will come back with a few more questions, I'm sure.

-Rich

[louielouie2000]

That's not necessarily true, unless you're referring to completely non-running cars.

Ummm yeah, again going to have to adamantly disagree here about Chrysler of the era being the bottom of the barrel of interior trim.

I'm not trying to start a pissing contest at all... I'm just relaying my experiences. I've been in the community for 15 years, owned 2 DeLoreans, have gone to dozens of different gatherings, been around hundreds of DeLoreans, and I've lost count of how many I've driven and ridden in. Point being, I've been around a large number of these cars for a decent amount of time. This is utterly subjective stuff, of course. Still, I stand by my experiences that some of the smoothest/quietest idling, best running DeLoreans I've been around have been higher mileage cars. As a counter point, I've been around numberless terrible running cars with under 25,000 miles on their odometers. It's possible to start up a DeLorean with 100k on it, and the thing just quietly, smoothly humm... while it's also possible to start up one which has only 10k miles which stumbles, has noisy exhaust leaks, hunts, has zero power because of a dozen vacuum leaks, etc. It has been my personal experience that DeLorean PRVs tend to be smoother, quieter, better idling engines once they've been fully broken in and have some miles on them. All I'm trying to relay to the OP is that mileage on DeLoreans isn't necessarily a bad thing at all. When properly maintained, it has been proven the DeLorean PRV can easily be driven over 300,000 miles without much issue. And as a counter point, the PRV and it's various systems get very unhappy when they're allowed to sit for extended periods. That's all I'm trying to say.

Regarding my summation of Chrysler interior trim being subpar, it was probably wrong of me to include that. I'm basing my experience from the Chryslers I've known from the past 25 years. Anything from the K-cars onward has been abysmal... but I don't have much experience of the Chryslers before that. I have just been around so many Chryslers that are 3-5 years old (at any given time) that have been utterly falling apart inside. Cracked dashes, delaminating pieces, trim literally falling off from what it's supposed to be anchored to, discolored trim, etc. Chrysler trim pieces just don't seem to fare well in the sun. I had a friend whose Neon was a total pile at 50k miles... same for another friend who had an Intrepid that he had to scrap not much after 75k. There's a reason Chrysler has teetered in and out of solvency the past 30 years. They build very poor quality vehicles compared to their peers. Their trucks are by far another story, though. But I digress. :)

[NightFlyer]

I'm not trying to start a pissing contest at all... I'm just relaying my experiences. I've been in the community for 15 years, owned 2 DeLoreans, have gone to dozens of different gatherings, been around hundreds of DeLoreans, and I've lost count of how many I've driven and ridden in. Point being, I've been around a large number of these cars for a decent amount of time. This is utterly subjective stuff, of course. Still, I stand by my experiences that some of the smoothest/quietest idling, best running DeLoreans I've been around have been higher mileage cars. As a counter point, I've been around numberless terrible running cars with under 25,000 miles on their odometers. It's possible to start up a DeLorean with 100k on it, and the thing just quietly, smoothly humm... while it's also possible to start up one which has only 10k miles which stumbles, has noisy exhaust leaks, hunts, has zero power because of a dozen vacuum leaks, etc. It has been my personal experience that DeLorean PRVs tend to be smoother, quieter, better idling engines once they've been fully broken in and have some miles on them. All I'm trying to relay to the OP is that mileage on DeLoreans isn't necessarily a bad thing at all. When properly maintained, it has been proven the DeLorean PRV can easily be driven over 300,000 miles without much issue. And as a counter point, the PRV and it's various systems get very unhappy when they're allowed to sit for extended periods. That's all I'm trying to say.

The things you're describing in the low mileage cars that you've been in and driven, such as "tumbles, has noisy exhaust leaks, hunts, has zero power because of a dozen vacuum leaks, etc.," have absolutely nothing at all to do with mileage, but rather neglect and/or improper maintenance by a previous owner. All things being equal, mileage has nothing to do with it. How many parts on high mileage cars were either replaced with new or refurbished? Meanwhile, many low mileage cars are still sporting all Dunmurry original parts and were abused/neglected due to improper storage situations (as you yourself have highlighted). New/refurbished parts on a neglected/abused low mileage car will cause it run just as well as a high mileage car, just as an all original low mileage car that has been properly cared for will run just fine (my car is a case in point).


Regarding my summation of Chrysler interior trim being subpar, it was probably wrong of me to include that. I'm basing my experience from the Chryslers I've known from the past 25 years. Anything from the K-cars onward has been abysmal... but I don't have much experience of the Chryslers before that. I have just been around so many Chryslers that are 3-5 years old (at any given time) that have been utterly falling apart inside. Cracked dashes, delaminating pieces, trim literally falling off from what it's supposed to be anchored to, discolored trim, etc. Chrysler trim pieces just don't seem to fare well in the sun. I had a friend whose Neon was a total pile at 50k miles... same for another friend who had an Intrepid that he had to scrap not much after 75k. There's a reason Chrysler has teetered in and out of solvency the past 30 years. They build very poor quality vehicles compared to their peers. Their trucks are by far another story, though. But I digress. :)

Nothing is further from the truth, and you obviously have no concept as to what caused Chrysler's financial woes since the '80's - had nothing to do with sales revenues. You and your friends must really be beating on and neglecting your Chryslers to have had such issues.

Between me and my immediate family, we've owned 22 different Chrysler vehicles since 1990, all purchased brand new, including a Neon (263,000 miles and still going strong) and Intrepid (177,000 miles and still going strong). A Chrysler has never left any of us stranded. The only 3-5 year old vehicles that I've ever seen from any manufacturer that are "utterly falling apart inside," are those that were abused/neglected by their owners.

BTW - the trucks use the exact same OEM material suppliers for interior pieces as the cars, so to differentiate between the two is actually quite comical and show the fallacy of your conclusions. I think that your observations are failing to account for a number a variables that have absolutely nothing to do with either the materials used in construction or how those materials were put together, but everything to do with how the vehicles were used/treated by their owners.

While you're more than entitled to your opinion, the assertions you've made are just that and nothing more - a subjective opinion. Given that Chrysler has won many JD Power & Ass. Initial Quality Awards and Strategic Vision and Total Quality Awards since 1990, had numerous engines consistently making Ward's 10 Best list, and is currently outperforming both GM and Ford in sale's growth, it's obvious that the consensus reality doesn't share in your opinion.

Not sure why you felt the need to bash Chrysler in this thread in the first place, as the OP was asking about DeLoreans, not Chryslers. Perhaps you're on the wrong forum...

[opethmike]

Ooo, silly drama time!

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popc orn::popcorn:

[DMCVegas]

The things you're describing in the low mileage cars that you've been in and driven, such as "tumbles, has noisy exhaust leaks, hunts, has zero power because of a dozen vacuum leaks, etc.," have absolutely nothing at all to do with mileage, but rather neglect and/or improper maintenance by a previous owner. All things being equal, mileage has nothing to do with it. How many parts on high mileage cars were either replaced with new or refurbished? Meanwhile, many low mileage cars are still sporting all Dunmurry original parts and were abused/neglected due to improper storage situations (as you yourself have highlighted). New/refurbished parts on a neglected/abused low mileage car will cause it run just as well as a high mileage car, just as an all original low mileage car that has been properly cared for will run just fine (my car is a case in point).

I'm gonna chime in on this one with the following statement:

You're both correct!

Mileage absolutely isn't the cause of poorly running cars. That would certainly be neglect. I wouldn't say so much that it's an issue of "breaking-in" a PRV engine, a DMC-12, or anything else per se, so much as it is that people who keep low milage cars absolutely tend to neglect them a whole helluva lot more. And that leads to the perception that low-milage cars are unreliable.

It's actually a "Cause and Effect" situation here. I can attest that with DeLoreans, if you neglect them, you have a whole damn domino effect of crap that starts to go wrong with that fuel injection system and other things. With the low milage cars this ends up being in many cases over the years what happens. You can't store modern cars like you could antique ones. So you either had guys using old methods, or you had investors that simply didn't know any better or just didn't care. So they tend to run poorly due to either bad fuel to unaddressed issues.

High-mileage DeLoreans are of course driven. Typically whereas low-mileage cars were tended-to more to preserve their cosmetics (if anything at all) at the expense of reliability, driven cars have their mechanical systems as the focus of attention to ensure functionality is either preserved or improved upon. That's not to say that even daily drivers are abused or look bad, but a great more time and money is spent on making them reliable since their owners don't want to be stranded on the side of the road.

[opethmike]

Fixed - So they tend to run poorly due to either bad fuel or unaddressed issues.

[NightFlyer]

For the record, I'm not trying to create any drama. I just didn't see the need to turn this thread into a 'let's bash Chrysler' party - especially when the criticism is wholly unwarranted.

Whenever anyone shows-up trashing DeLoreans or the DeLorean story/saga due to false/misinformation, either on this forum or on other sites, this community goes bananas over it. So why would Louie think that it would be completely kosher to trash on Chryslers with false/misinformation, and think that he wouldn't generate any resistance/reprieve to such baseless and unsubstantiated assertions?

[opethmike]

23526

[NightFlyer]

23526

I'm allowed to express my opinions just as much as Louie is allowed to express his - if you call that drama... then so be it.

[opethmike]

I'm allowed to express my opinions just as much as Louie is allowed to express his - if you call that drama... then so be it.

23527

[eagle-co94]

PM me the VIN of the car and I'll let you know what I can find for the mileage history. I can post it here of PM it back to you.

[DMCVegas]

ABANDON THREAD!

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01080/earth-graphics-200_1080291a.jpg

[opethmike]

ABANDON THREAD!

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01080/earth-graphics-200_1080291a.jpg

http://www.troll.me/images/xzibit-wtf-dawg/yo-wtf-dawg.jpg