How bad is this hole in the frame?

[jangell]

While working to get the oil cooler hose off so I could remove the engine and transmission, I noticed some rust on the frame. It look like a bump pushing outward. I tapped it with my finger and easily pulled of rusted flakes. I tapped and prayed at it lightly with a screwdriver, and easily revealed a hole right through the frame. This is under the passenger rear upper control arm.

I'm wondering if this can be welded or if I have bigger concerns. Once I finally get the trans and engine out I do plan on going over the whole area to see how much rust is there, but I don't really know how much is too much, or bad a particular spot is.

240672406824069

Thanks!

-- Joe

[DMCMW Dave]

There is no hole in the frame that isn't bad. You need to find a talented welder/fabricator, not some truck frame repair hack.

Your bigger worry is that there is never just one bad spot. Keep looking.

[jangell]

Right; I'm a bit worried that it might be rather widespread. I wonder if those stainless frames are still available... Not that I really want to replace my frame, mind you. I suppose I really should determine the extent of the rust before I go frame shopping.

I forgot to mention the size of the hole -- about 1 to 1 1/3", depending on where I measure from.

Thanks

-- Joe

[ALEXAKOS]

I have fought rust on my frame (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?6452-5992-Trip-to-Greece-Restoration-and-Speculations&p=116164&viewfull=1#post116164) for quite some time.

Problem is that he delorean frame is a sponge. It has many holes in which water gets trapped. And if that water contains salt from the treated icy roads then your frame is salt's paradise.

Your images do no really give me the location of the problem . Bus as Dave correctly said, you probably have many more hidden rust spots.

May I just suggest the easiest way out?

Buy a used frame and replace it! A member here has parted one that looks GREAT! (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?7394-Since-10077-won-t-sell-complete-I-am-offering-it-up-here-first-as-parts&p=127939&viewfull=1#post127939)
Ask James for details!

Good luck;)

[David T]

Rust is always more pervasive than it appears. You must keep cutting till you get back to full thickness, clean metal. Two reasons, you need full thickness for the strength AND you cannot weld to rust. Cutting and patching is not all that hard but before you start you need to assess the whole frame. At some point it becomes better to replace whole sections than to try to repair a frame a patch at a time. As Dave S mentions, if you have rust bad enough to rot a hole through in one spot you probably have more areas that have rusted. Look for any cracked, peeling, chipped epoxy and start poking with an icepick. To do a proper repair you need access to both sides of the frame. That may necessitate removal of the body and many of the mechanicals. At that point it may become more economical to replace the frame rather than to do all of the patching. It all is dependent on how badly the frame is rusted and where and what it will cost to get another frame and how much work you have to do to it. Figure any frame you get will also need some patching or maybe an adapter plate to convert from auto to manual or vice/versa. Don't forget shipping.

[jangell]

I have fought rust on my frame (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?6452-5992-Trip-to-Greece-Restoration-and-Speculations&p=116164&viewfull=1#post116164) for quite some time.

I see. I'm wondering how much inspection I can do before I have to remove the frame from the body. My garage is big enough for two cars, but has no driveway and only a door on one side, meaning that I'll have to slide the frame out sideways intend of rolling it out the front/back, which should be interesting.


Problem is that he delorean frame is a sponge. It has many holes in which water gets trapped. And if that water contains salt from the treated icy roads then your frame is salt's paradise.

And I'm one of those crazy people who drives their car year round, too. Well, when it's running, anyway...


Your images do no really give me the location of the problem . Bus as Dave correctly said, you probably have many more hidden rust spots.

Here's a couple more images showing the location under the passenger side upper link arm. The hole is downward facing; the photo makes it look like it's forward-facing.

2408924091


May I just suggest the easiest way out?

Buy a used frame and replace it! A member here has parted one that looks GREAT! (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?7394-Since-10077-won-t-sell-complete-I-am-offering-it-up-here-first-as-parts&p=127939&viewfull=1#post127939)
Ask James for details!

That's very tempting. I'm up in MA so I'd have to get it shipped here, but first I want to know how bad my frame is. I was told that in New England there are only certain places certified to do frame welds, so it might wind up being a better decision to replace it entirely anyway. I should also mention I have an auto; I didn't notice what that frame was.

I'm still really tempted to look into stainless frames so I never have to worry about this again, but back when they were available they were $10k or so, if I recall correctly.

-- Joe

[jangell]

Rust is always more pervasive than it appears. You must keep cutting till you get back to full thickness, clean metal. Two reasons, you need full thickness for the strength AND you cannot weld to rust. Cutting and patching is not all that hard but before you start you need to assess the whole frame. At some point it becomes better to replace whole sections than to try to repair a frame a patch at a time. As Dave S mentions, if you have rust bad enough to rot a hole through in one spot you probably have more areas that have rusted. Look for any cracked, peeling, chipped epoxy and start poking with an icepick. To do a proper repair you need access to both sides of the frame. That may necessitate removal of the body and many of the mechanicals. At that point it may become more economical to replace the frame rather than to do all of the patching. It all is dependent on how badly the frame is rusted and where and what it will cost to get another frame and how much work you have to do to it. Figure any frame you get will also need some patching or maybe an adapter plate to convert from auto to manual or vice/versa. Don't forget shipping.

There's various bits of chipped epoxy all around the frame. I also noticed a crack in a similar place on the other side of the car, but haven't explored it too much yet. It's not as bad as this one was, but it might still be pretty bad once I get the epoxy out of the way. I wouldn't be very surprised to find that the frame has more rust than it's worth fixing. I hope to finally have the engine/trans out sometime next week, at which point I'm going to take a thorough look at the frame and report back. Of course, I wanted to have the engine/trans out over a month ago (got sidetracked with work), so it might take me a bit still.

Thanks

-- Joe

[pezzonovante88]

Great excuse to get a new frame!

[Rich]

[about the parted-out frame from the For Sale post]....I'd have to get it shipped here, but first I want to know how bad my frame is.... I should also mention I have an auto; I didn't notice what that frame was.....

The frame shown in the listing from that link looks like it has an automatic gear selector mounted in it.

[jangell]

I took another look at that frame, and I agree that looks like an automatic shifter box in there. I had also forgotten that I need to replace the front frame extension on my car sometime -- the right pontoon (or whatever it's called) snapped off a few years back, and I had a local shop weld a box around it until I could do a proper repair. That entire frame is cheaper than just a front frame extension. I've sent a PM to James about buying it and how to get it up the east coast.

Thanks!

-- Joe

[Delorean Industries]

I took another look at that frame, and I agree that looks like an automatic shifter box in there. I had also forgotten that I need to replace the front frame extension on my car sometime -- the right pontoon (or whatever it's called) snapped off a few years back, and I had a local shop weld a box around it until I could do a proper repair. That entire frame is cheaper than just a front frame extension. I've sent a PM to James about buying it and how to get it up the east coast.

Thanks!

-- Joe

Frame is sold. I believe he has a five speed one available now same price.

[jangell]

Doh. Thanks for the update.

So what is the difference between a manual and auto frame? I know that differences exist, but that's about the extent of it.

-- Joe

[Rich]

So what is the difference between a manual and auto frame?

LINK: http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?3183 (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?3183)
It's all there. Ignore some of the bits about the extra parts if you want to keep an automatic body and are considering to convert a 5-sp frame for your automatic use. The frame mods/diffs are listed by at least Dave, Josh and David T., maybe others. The point is that it's at least the frame and not only the frame as you've no doubt figured out by now. The frames are not interchangeable without some metal work.

I do understand that this thread is auto to manual and you are considering going the other way, at least frame-wise.

[jangell]

Thanks Rich; I kept searching for "auto vs. manual frame" and such; I didn't think of searching for "conversion" (although that thread did show up further down in the list). Most threads seem to talk about putting a manual gearbox in an auto frame, but I haven't been able to find information on putting an auto gearbox in a manual frame, or specific details on the differences. The thread you linked to said, "modified frame (lower/reshaped mount plate, extra hole in the back)"; I have a good idea about the extra hole (presumably for the linkage to the transmission that I started taking off today, actually), but I'm fuzzy on the lower/reshaped mount plate, and if that would cause problems when an auto trans is installed.

On a related note, I saw some posts about new stainless frames from Ireland. It was nearly two years ago, though, so I'm assuming nothing ever came of them. And there are no more Pearce Design frames either, I gather. Not that I can probably afford either of those anyway.

Thanks again

-- Joe

[jangell]

With the engine and transmission out of the car, I was able to take a more thorough look at the hole in the frame. I found a second hole on the opposite side of the car in the same place. But other than those two, I didn't really seem much; mostly just surface rust in various places.

I used a pick to tap around the frame at various points that looked like they had some rust on them, as well as areas that were still covered by a thick coating of epoxy. When I did find rust, I pushed the pick against it to see if I could break through it. This really only did anything to the holes near the upper link arms; everything else seemed to be pretty solid, such as the central beam running through the center of the car, the other visible areas of the frame in the engine bay (top and bottom), etc.

There's a little rust under the engine cradle, a small spot of rust in-between the "Y" part of the frame above the transmission, and I'm wondering about the rust on the edges of the trailing arms, where the metal seems to be separating. I've sloppily applied POR-15 to surface rusted areas in the past, but this time I'm planning on more properly treating and coating the areas I've found.

In any case, I thinking that the two holes are repairable and don't warrant replacing the frame, but I'm not exactly an expert here. Does anyone know of any good welders in the southern Massachusetts or northern Rhode Island areas? I'm assuming I'll have to drive (or tow, but preferably drive) the car to whoever will do the repairs; even if I could get a welder to visit my garage, the car is only lifted high enough to roll under it with a creeper, and I don't think they'd really be able to work in those conditions. I also assume that I won't have to separate the body from the frame for this kind of thing. I figure I'll do as much clean-up as I can with sanding tools and grinders or whatever you do for this sort of thing before bringing it down.


Here's various pictures of the holes and rust spots. The hole on the driver's side is smaller than the one on the passenger side. It seems like the rust occurred from inside the frame and ate its way out, given the flaking epoxy and rusted bits visible through the hole.

Driver's side upper link arm area:
2473724738

Passenger's side upper link arm area. I didn't take the wheel off to check, but that rusted bit inside the frame looks like it could be the upper link arm and the bolt that runs through it. Is that what it is? If so, I guess I'm getting some new upper link arms. The second picture (longer shot) is from before I chipped away more of the rust.
2473624739

Engine cradle:
2474124742

Above transmission:
24740

Trailing arms:
24743247442474524746247472474824749247502475124752

Engine mounts. While they have a lot of surface rust, the rubber still seems to be firmly attached to the metal (based on puling on them as in the video that was recently posted). On the other hand, as long as I have the engine out of the car I'm wondering if I should just replace them anyway.
2475324754247552475624757

Thanks again everyone!

-- Joe

[ALEXAKOS]

The arms aren't too bad. You can get those repaired. The engine mount you can get new from DMCH. Its better to have some new rubbers under that;)
The rest of the frame has some deep issues that may be repairable, bu you will be worried of every pot hole you hit in the future and every noise you hear.

I am still suggesting you get that used frame from James (member eagle-co94) in Hollywood FL. It is in great shape and value for money... It will keep you will sleeping at ease :)

[jangell]

The rest of the frame has some deep issues that may be repairable, bu you will be worried of every pot hole you hit in the future and every noise you hear.

I think it's "just" those two holes. Well, that and one of the two pontoon things on the front frame extension that I had to have welded back together at one point (that shop is 3 hours away and they lost their welder, so I can't use them this time).

For the trailing arms, I figured that at worst I could replace them, since they're relatively light and can be removed from the car without too much trouble (I think...). I'm guessing that the seam along the edge should be rewelded, and the smaller rust spots treated as normal (POR-15)?

And I suppose i should do the engine mounts, since I have the engine out of the way...


I am still suggesting you get that used frame from James (member eagle-co94) in Hollywood FL. It is in great shape and value for money... It will keep you will sleeping at ease :)

James already sold the auto frame had for sale, so I'll have to find another or modify a manual frame. Honestly, I'd rather try to weld up this frame for now, since beyond the surface rust in the other photos and the two holes, I didn't feel like large portions of the frame work going to snap off or anything -- but again, I'm not an expert. Although if stainless frames still existed I could be convinced to go for one of those even at their high price, just so that I never have to worry about this again.


Although if I did do a frame swap, I'll be doing it by myself with no lift, and there's the bit of trickiness of how my garage is laid out:

http://static.squarespace.com/static/510dbdc1e4b037c811a42c5a/t/5288eac6e4b013f42235d315/1384704712335/GarageLayout-1311.png

That picture was made for another purpose, and isn't quite to scale -- in that I think I have enough room to place a rolling frame in empty work area to the right of the car in the picture. Of course, since I only have the one garage door, I'd have to slide the frame out of the car sideways instead of rolling it out the back (there's no driveway, either -- the garage door is right on the sidewalk). I have some ideas about how to make this work, and a frame is light enough that I should be able to man-handle it around the garage myself once I've gotten everything off of it, mostly.

But if I could just patch my current frame, it would be a lot easier. :)

Thanks!

-- Joe

[ALEXAKOS]

All plans in good faith and skills. Have in mind that rusted metal is weak metal and welding may just melt it all away. It comes all down to how much there is left of good metal.


I am doing all welding and patching alone as well and some places I had to reinforce them with added metal sheets. TIG and mig welding was simply impossible as the metal have away. It was like trying to weld paper. Also you will need to get it all sandblasted to remove all the old epoxy. The next solution is burn off the epoxy which is a very dirty and smelly job.

So you are firstly looking at a complete sandblasting job. After that you will see what you are left with. Plus u need cut open all closed areas of the frame

[jangell]

Well, that's starting to sound like a lot more work. I had been planning on getting some sandblasting equipment anyway, so I was going to try to sand blast away the rust and epoxy around that area and and clean it up with an angle grinder or whatever as best I could before having anyone try to weld it. I expect that this would make the hole quite a bit larger, which may then make it no longer feasible to keep the frame. I don't know how to weld (it seems simple in principle, but I know it's really not in practice), and while I'd be willing to try it some googling strongly suggested that I shouldn't make welding a car frame be my first real project.

I'm curious about what you mean about cutting open the closed areas of the frame. As far as I've been able to tell, the bulk of the frame seems to be in good shape, and that besides these two holes there is only surface rust. I'm probably going to take the rear wheels off next weekend so that I can see what it looks like in the upper link arm recess and see how that is.

I'm pretty much making this up as I go along -- I have no experience with dealing with holes in metal or patching them up. I'm just REALLY trying to avoid replacing the entire frame and want to exhaust all the patching options first, but if it comes down to a replacement, I guess I'll have to do it.

Thanks

-- Joe

[David T]

Well, that's starting to sound like a lot more work. I had been planning on getting some sandblasting equipment anyway, so I was going to try to sand blast away the rust and epoxy around that area and and clean it up with an angle grinder or whatever as best I could before having anyone try to weld it. I expect that this would make the hole quite a bit larger, which may then make it no longer feasible to keep the frame. I don't know how to weld (it seems simple in principle, but I know it's really not in practice), and while I'd be willing to try it some googling strongly suggested that I shouldn't make welding a car frame be my first real project.

I'm curious about what you mean about cutting open the closed areas of the frame. As far as I've been able to tell, the bulk of the frame seems to be in good shape, and that besides these two holes there is only surface rust. I'm probably going to take the rear wheels off next weekend so that I can see what it looks like in the upper link arm recess and see how that is.

I'm pretty much making this up as I go along -- I have no experience with dealing with holes in metal or patching them up. I'm just REALLY trying to avoid replacing the entire frame and want to exhaust all the patching options first, but if it comes down to a replacement, I guess I'll have to do it.

Thanks

-- Joe

Patching up a frame is no big deal. That is once you master some simple welding techniques. The frame is made up of 16 Ga sheet metal. You basically cut out the rotten areas, cut a piece to fit and if necessary put in some stiffeners. You DO have to cut back to healthy metal, as pointed out you CANNOT weld to rust. IMHO it is usually better to repair your frame since any other frame you get will also probably need some repair too on top of the cost to buy it AND the shipping. Refer to sections R:02:02 and :03. Make sure you hold those dimensions so the car will go straight. Inquire at the local Technical center. Many have courses on welding at night and are not expensive. Some welding supply houses also have people that will coach you in proper welding techniques. Good welding takes a lot of patience and a steady hand. You do not have to get fancy and go TIG. Even MIG is more than you need. It can be done with an Oxy-Acetalyne torch and filler rod and that set-up is not expensive. Practice on some scraps and then try breaking them till you are confident enough in your work. Just work safe. Use proper personal protection, adequate ventilation, and proper fire prevention techniques. If using Oxy-Acetalyne make sure you have backfire preventers on the torch handle AND the regulators. Keep a fire extinguisher handy and a squirter bottle of water.

[jangell]

Thanks, David; i might pick up a stick welder (mostly so I don't have to worry about any gasses) and give it a shot with some practice stock. I have no problem with learning to weld -- I just wasn't sure if it was a good idea. :)

-- Joe

[jangell]

After doing some googling about removing rust, I picked up a 10 gallon air compressor and a mini needle scaler from Harbor Freight today. I like the needle scaler -- the mini one requires less pressure than the full-sized one, so I didn't have to get as big of an air compressor, but I don't know if that affected the power. I was able to make the hole on the passenger side larger still, as the needle scaler easily knocked away the weakened metal and was able to wear away a moderate amount of the rust on the solid steel as well. Much less messy than a sandblaster, but I'll probably use a small die grinder to try to clean it up further.

I also took both rear wheels off to see if I could find any damage near the link arm itself, on the other side of the frame. I didn't notice anything on the driver's side, but on the passenger side I could see a hole just under the link arm, and another smaller one just to the rear (from the car's perspective) of it. Back under the car looking up at the frame, it appeared that the frame had conformed to the shape of the link arm and rusted -- I don't think the curved bit visible in the photos is the link arm itself.

What's worse is that there's an obvious crack in the steel visible from inside the frame. This crack is where the upper link arm meets the frame. It seems like I hit a large bump or something and somehow slammed the upper link arm into the frame, thus compromising the frame.

Passenger Side:
2502025022250232502425025250262502725028

From the "outside", looking towards the upper link arm where it meets the frame. I shown light through the back of the frame to highlight the holes around the link arm itself.
250292503025031

On the driver's side, the frame wall is rusted inside the frame and slightly deformed, but not nearly as bad as the passenger's side:
250172501825019

I don't know if I can tell much more without removing the upper link arm where it attaches to the frame. I'm curious about how the bolt for the upper link arm is secured; I gather there's a captured nut inside the frame itself?

Mostly, though, I'm wondering if this much damage around the upper link arm spells the death knell for this frame. It looks like it's no longer a "simple" job of patching up some holes, although I'm hoping those with more experience can advice he here.

Thanks again!

-- Joe

[David T]

After doing some googling about removing rust, I picked up a 10 gallon air compressor and a mini needle scaler from Harbor Freight today. I like the needle scaler -- the mini one requires less pressure than the full-sized one, so I didn't have to get as big of an air compressor, but I don't know if that affected the power. I was able to make the hole on the passenger side larger still, as the needle scaler easily knocked away the weakened metal and was able to wear away a moderate amount of the rust on the solid steel as well. Much less messy than a sandblaster, but I'll probably use a small die grinder to try to clean it up further.

I also took both rear wheels off to see if I could find any damage near the link arm itself, on the other side of the frame. I didn't notice anything on the driver's side, but on the passenger side I could see a hole just under the link arm, and another smaller one just to the rear (from the car's perspective) of it. Back under the car looking up at the frame, it appeared that the frame had conformed to the shape of the link arm and rusted -- I don't think the curved bit visible in the photos is the link arm itself.

What's worse is that there's an obvious crack in the steel visible from inside the frame. This crack is where the upper link arm meets the frame. It seems like I hit a large bump or something and somehow slammed the upper link arm into the frame, thus compromising the frame.

Passenger Side:
2502025022250232502425025250262502725028

From the "outside", looking towards the upper link arm where it meets the frame. I shown light through the back of the frame to highlight the holes around the link arm itself.
250292503025031

On the driver's side, the frame wall is rusted inside the frame and slightly deformed, but not nearly as bad as the passenger's side:
250172501825019

I don't know if I can tell much more without removing the upper link arm where it attaches to the frame. I'm curious about how the bolt for the upper link arm is secured; I gather there's a captured nut inside the frame itself?

Mostly, though, I'm wondering if this much damage around the upper link arm spells the death knell for this frame. It looks like it's no longer a "simple" job of patching up some holes, although I'm hoping those with more experience can advice he here.

Thanks again!

-- Joe


The frame is still repairable but it may just take more to repair it. I do not like "stick" welding. Especially on sheet metal. Way too easy to blow through. It also takes a lot of skill and is difficult to use in confined spaces. You will not be able to do butt welds, you will have to do overlap repairs and they can look ugly. For cutting the metal you use a die grinder with cut-off wheels, or a Sawzall. A needle scaler is kind of dainty for this type of work. Think big, meaning sometimes instead of fixing a few small nearby holes it is much better to take out a bigger piece and do them all as one big repair. It may also make sense instead of straightening a section, replacing it is the better solution. That is another reason I suggested Oxy-Acetalyne. You can use it to heat up metal to soften it so you can straighten it. You can't do that with stick, Mig, or Tig. With all of the work you have to do on this frame it may make sense to pull the body off and strip the frame of all of the parts.

[jangell]

The frame is still repairable but it may just take more to repair it..

That's good to hear. I'm not sure if we're leaving novice territory, though. I guess I'll try and remove the upper link arm in the next few weekends, since it seems I'll have to do if I do a repair or a replacement.


I do not like "stick" welding. Especially on sheet metal. Way too easy to blow through. It also takes a lot of skill and is difficult to use in confined spaces. You will not be able to do butt welds, you will have to do overlap repairs and they can look ugly.

Ah, ok; due to the simple equipment (no gas), I assumed it was the lower-skill approach.


For cutting the metal you use a die grinder with cut-off wheels, or a Sawzall. A needle scaler is kind of dainty for this type of work.

Mostly it was less messy than sand blasting, and I didn't need to get a much more expensive air compressor to run it (I got a 10 gallon 6 SCFM 120 PSI unit; not exactly a powerhouse) Also, the scaler was $30, so I was willing to take the chance. :) I also picked up an inexpensive die grinder as well; I haven't used it yet, although I think I'll want to get another with a 90 degree head to reach into the frame more easily. I figure that I'll see if these cheap tools work well enough, and upgrade if they aren't cutting it.


Think big, meaning sometimes instead of fixing a few small nearby holes it is much better to take out a bigger piece and do them all as one big repair. It may also make sense instead of straightening a section, replacing it is the better solution.[/QUITE]

Cutting out the broken piece seems reasonable -- I already expected that I'd be cutting a larger rectangular hole around the rusted-out hole through the frame.

It's less clear to me how to repair around the upper link arm mounting point itself, since that seems like a complex shape (mostly due to the damage being near where the the bolt goes through the link arm) that requires precise alignment.

I'm assuming you meant replacing a larger portion of the frame, not replacing the entire frame.

[QUOTE]That is another reason I suggested Oxy-Acetalyne. You can use it to heat up metal to soften it so you can straighten it. You can't do that with stick, Mig, or Tig.

How do you straighten it once it's heated up? Push on it, or hammer at it? I'm guessing I'd have to do the former, since it would have to be pushed outward from the inside?

I had done some research on Mig and Tig welding before, but hadn't looked at oxy-acetalyne at all until now. I did have some concerns about Mig/Tig, though, in that I only have 120v in my garage, and a lot of the rigs seem to be 240v, so oxy would be a big advantage there.

Thanks again!

-- Joe

[David T]

That's good to hear. I'm not sure if we're leaving novice territory, though. I guess I'll try and remove the upper link arm in the next few weekends, since it seems I'll have to do if I do a repair or a replacement.



Ah, ok; due to the simple equipment (no gas), I assumed it was the lower-skill approach.



Mostly it was less messy than sand blasting, and I didn't need to get a much more expensive air compressor to run it (I got a 10 gallon 6 SCFM 120 PSI unit; not exactly a powerhouse) Also, the scaler was $30, so I was willing to take the chance. :) I also picked up an inexpensive die grinder as well; I haven't used it yet, although I think I'll want to get another with a 90 degree head to reach into the frame more easily. I figure that I'll see if these cheap tools work well enough, and upgrade if they aren't cutting it.

[QUOTE]Think big, meaning sometimes instead of fixing a few small nearby holes it is much better to take out a bigger piece and do them all as one big repair. It may also make sense instead of straightening a section, replacing it is the better solution.[/QUITE]

Cutting out the broken piece seems reasonable -- I already expected that I'd be cutting a larger rectangular hole around the rusted-out hole through the frame.

It's less clear to me how to repair around the upper link arm mounting point itself, since that seems like a complex shape (mostly due to the damage being near where the the bolt goes through the link arm) that requires precise alignment.

I'm assuming you meant replacing a larger portion of the frame, not replacing the entire frame.



How do you straighten it once it's heated up? Push on it, or hammer at it? I'm guessing I'd have to do the former, since it would have to be pushed outward from the inside?

I had done some research on Mig and Tig welding before, but hadn't looked at oxy-acetalyne at all until now. I did have some concerns about Mig/Tig, though, in that I only have 120v in my garage, and a lot of the rigs seem to be 240v, so oxy would be a big advantage there.

Thanks again!

-- Joe

Oxy-Acetalyne is the earliest form of welding (not counting hammer welding where you heat two pieces of metal and bang them together). It is not the easiest to learn, that goes to MIG, but it is the most versatile. It requires no electric. It can be used for all kinds of metal and many different thicknesses. You can solder, braze, weld, heat, heat-treat, and harden. You can use it to remove "frozen" fasteners. With a different torch you can cut. Next up would be MIG. Little machines can operate on 120 volts but unless you use expensive filler wire with a special inner core you need a bottle of shielding gas. You get a much nicer weld with shielding gas anyway. You can buy your own bottles or you can rent them, it depends on what is available locally, how much you will be using it, and costs. Once you can master heating and puddling you can learn how to do any kind of welding including TIG. Keep a fire extinguisher handy and it is best to have someone nearby keeping an eye on you. When you are wearing goggles or a face shield, you cannot see if you are on fire!

[jangell]

[QUOTE=jangell;132908]Oxy-Acetalyne is the earliest form of welding (not counting hammer welding where you heat two pieces of metal and bang them together). It is not the easiest to learn, that goes to MIG, but it is the most versatile. It requires no electric. It can be used for all kinds of metal and many different thicknesses. You can solder, braze, weld, heat, heat-treat, and harden.

Cool; I did some quick research and in principle it doesn't sound too hard (I guess one of MIG's big advantage is that it feeds the wire for you?), but I understand that it takes practice to get a feel for it (or any other kind of welding). I also got the impression it's fairly cheap to get started. Mostly I just need to get the gasses and not blow myself up by doing something stupid. :)


You can use it to remove "frozen" fasteners.

I've tried using a MAP torch to do this before; I actually got it to work once on a radiator mount bolt (failed to get anywhere on the exhaust studs, though; I just had the machine shop do them when they resurfaced the heads). That's the extent of my experience with using a torch on anything.

I've also seen tricks for welding a nut onto a broken bolt to replace the head, which really made me wish I knew how to weld at the time..


With a different torch you can cut.

I guess that would make it easier to put that extra hole in a manual frame for the auto trans linkage if I do need to do a swap. :)


Next up would be MIG. Little machines can operate on 120 volts but unless you use expensive filler wire with a special inner core you need a bottle of shielding gas. You get a much nicer weld with shielding gas anyway. You can buy your own bottles or you can rent them, it depends on what is available locally, how much you will be using it, and costs.

I wasn't sure if there were serious limits in how much you could weld with MIG when you only have access to 120v. I do like that electricity is not an issue withe oxy, although it is in exchange for having to deal with explosive gasses.


Once you can master heating and puddling you can learn how to do any kind of welding including TIG.

Got it: practice a lot. I'll have to figure out where my local welding supply shop is.


Keep a fire extinguisher handy and it is best to have someone nearby keeping an eye on you. When you are wearing goggles or a face shield, you cannot see if you are on fire!

Ah; I have two fire extinguishers in the garage, but I'm most always working alone. Maybe I should keep a fire blanket handy too.

Thanks!

-- Joe

[Rich_NYS]

I was a Battalion welder when in the US Army; been a while but I can offer a few helpful tips:

-Get something to use as a "heat shield" to protect the surrounding areas from heat damage & possible fire.

-Flame adjustment (more/less Oxygen) for Oxy-Acetylene varies depending on the application; brazing, welding, cutting....become familiar with the different types of flame adjustments.


You'll likely begin learning by practicing flat welding, but be prepared that the game changes for overhead welding. It would be helpful to rig an overhead practice piece to get used to it. FWIW, having welding sleeves are fairly necessary for overhead. It's also helpful to be able to tough it out when the sparks rain down (the steadier the hand, the better the weld.)

Welding is a useful skill to know and a torch is a great tool for all the reasons Dave mentioned. Also, +10 on having someone standing by for safety; another set of eyes is valuable to have when you're playing with fire.

[jangell]

-Get something to use as a "heat shield" to protect the surrounding areas from heat damage & possible fire.

Ah, right; there is a lot of fiberglass not terribly far from this part of the frame. I'll have to see if I can put something up there. I'd like to avoid removing the body if i'm going to weld a patch.


-Flame adjustment (more/less Oxygen) for Oxy-Acetylene varies depending on the application; brazing, welding, cutting....become familiar with the different types of flame adjustments.

I did have to look up just what brazing was (lots of info on Google); it's one of those terms I'd heard but not come across. I expect I'll be able to find lots of information on flame size for different applications, too.


You'll likely begin learning by practicing flat welding, but be prepared that the game changes for overhead welding. It would be helpful to rig an overhead practice piece to get used to it. FWIW, having welding sleeves are fairly necessary for overhead. It's also helpful to be able to tough it out when the sparks rain down (the steadier the hand, the better the weld.)


Very good point -- I was thinking of clamping some stock in a vice to practice with, but I should definitely set up something so that I can weld while lying on my back to simulate working on the frame. I plan on having full protective gear, but I didn't know about welding sleeves; I'll have to do more research into safety gear. As long as I have that, I don't think I'll have any concerns about raining sparks and hopefully will be able to keep my hand steady...


Welding is a useful skill to know and a torch is a great tool for all the reasons Dave mentioned. Also, +10 on having someone standing by for safety; another set of eyes is valuable to have when you're playing with fire.

Guess I'll have to find someone to help me out.

Thanks!

-- Joe

[David T]

I was a Battalion welder when in the US Army; been a while but I can offer a few helpful tips:

-Get something to use as a "heat shield" to protect the surrounding areas from heat damage & possible fire.

-Flame adjustment (more/less Oxygen) for Oxy-Acetylene varies depending on the application; brazing, welding, cutting....become familiar with the different types of flame adjustments.


You'll likely begin learning by practicing flat welding, but be prepared that the game changes for overhead welding. It would be helpful to rig an overhead practice piece to get used to it. FWIW, having welding sleeves are fairly necessary for overhead. It's also helpful to be able to tough it out when the sparks rain down (the steadier the hand, the better the weld.)

Welding is a useful skill to know and a torch is a great tool for all the reasons Dave mentioned. Also, +10 on having someone standing by for safety; another set of eyes is valuable to have when you're playing with fire.

You do have to protect nearby adjacent areas and parts from heat. I like to have a fire extinguisher handy but only for when something gets out of control. Much better to have a pail of water with a rag and a squirt bottle of water nearby and a LOT cheaper than refiling a fire extinguisher and a lot less messy to clean up. Welding in different positions is a challenge. It is a manual skill that you learn by practice. Best to learn on some scraps. Get a couple of small pieces about 2" X 3" and but weld them together. Try breaking them apart on the weld. Once you can get smooth, even welds with good penetration that don't crack and break you are ready to weld the frame. Repairing a frame is more than just melting metal together. You also have to learn to cut out the bad stuff and fab up sections to weld in place. You then tack-weld the new piece in and then run a bead between the tacks to strengthen it. Then you grind the welds and paint. There are videos on this stuff and I am sure if you look there must be a lot on You-Tube too.

[Rich_NYS]

Very good point -- I was thinking of clamping some stock in a vice to practice with, but I should definitely set up something so that I can weld while lying on my back to simulate working on the frame. I plan on having full protective gear, but I didn't know about welding sleeves; I'll have to do more research into safety gear.


...or try it without and get the full experience! :biggrin:

[jangell]

Thanks David. I'll definitely do a lot of practice and keep some water handy. I expect that you mean by learning to cut the bad stuff out is that I need to learn how much to remove so that all I'm left with is clean metal. Fabbing a new piece to put in place for a patch doesn't sound TOO difficult -- at least in principle, since it's mostly cutting some stock to cove the hole (if its flat) or welding up a matching piece if it's angled...?

As for my frame: I'm curious about how bad the damage might be near the upper link arm bolt, although I suppose I'll need to remove the link arm before I really know. I'm mostly concerned about needing to patch very close to where the link arm gets near the frame.

There's also the fact that it seems like the link arm was pushed inwards towards the frame, implying that I'll need to bend the frame outward again. You suggested that with I could heat the steel with oxy so that I could straighten it. How is that done? Just heat it up, then push against it and/or hammer it? I'm also a bit worried about where that bolt attaches inside the frame; it doesn't seem like there's a nut there, or at least not one that's accessible.

Thanks again!

-- Joe

[jangell]

...or try it without and get the full experience! :biggrin:

I think I'll get the gear. :)

-- Joe

[Rich_NYS]

You then tack-weld the new piece in and then run a bead between the tacks to strengthen it.

This is very important....good call. I haven't watched any videos, but just in case they (oddly) don't mention it: always tack it in place at every seam, then check & re-adjust after every tack (the expansion/contraction will move the piece out of alignment.)

"Back-step" welding (might be slang) is good for mitigating the effects of heat.....might be worth a look. I'll see if I find a video or at least the official terminology.

[jangell]

Thanks for the info. In a video I found about brazing vs. welding the presenter tacked the ends of his sample pieces to each other first specifically to avoid problems with the metal expanding as he went. In other things I've found they seemed to always mention tacking pieces first to make sure everything was where you wanted it an fit properly before doing the final weld.

-- Joe

[Rich_NYS]

Here's what came up on a search for back-step welding. Not exactly the back-step I was referring to, but it's a nice & brief explanation on heat transfer affecting blow-through.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk-deP30A-k

Expand on this idea a bit, making short welds at various places while allowing previous welds to cool and you'll be able to control the heat better than one long weld.

Try not to cool the hot metal with water if possible, let it cool slowly. Along with a shield, spray water on the surrounding areas before, during & after your welding to help keep 'em cool.

Enjot! :thumbup:

[Rich_NYS]

Thanks for the info. In a video I found about brazing vs. welding the presenter tacked the ends of his sample pieces to each other first specifically to avoid problems with the metal expanding as he went. In other things I've found they seemed to always mention tacking pieces first to make sure everything was where you wanted it an fit properly before doing the final weld.

-- Joe


Also, the longer the pieces, the more tacks....I'd need to look up the specs, but for this metal I'd guess every few inches to be safe (just a guess.)

[jangell]

Ah, ok -- that makes a lot of sense. I gather there's no difference in weld strength if you do one long continuous weld vs. a series of smaller welds, jumping back and forth across the joint to keep the area cool?

Also, I notice he was welding on a plywood surface, so I guess there's no concern about catching the table on fire -- but he's also welding electrically, not with a torch.

Lastly, does electrical welding (I guess that was MIGin the video?) reach higher temperatures more quickly (and at an obviously more localized spot) than oxy? In the oxy videos I've watched so far (only a couple), it takes a few seconds to melt the metals enough to begin to do the weld, while with MIG it seems to be pretty instant.

Thanks again!

-- Joe

[Rich_NYS]

Ah, ok -- that makes a lot of sense. I gather there's no difference in weld strength if you do one long continuous weld vs. a series of smaller welds, jumping back and forth across the joint to keep the area cool?

There is a difference, but it's relative to the skill of the welder and it's negiligble depending on the application.



Also, I notice he was welding on a plywood surface, so I guess there's no concern about catching the table on fire -- but he's also welding electrically, not with a torch.

That table would normally burn, but he put a backing plate behind his pieces before he started welding. That raises a great point: if/when you can put a backing plate behind your butt-weld while working, it's very helpful control blow-through & heat transfer.



Lastly, does electrical welding (I guess that was MIGin the video?) reach higher temperatures more quickly (and at an obviously more localized spot) than oxy?

Yes, and yes -it was MIG.

[David T]

There is a difference, but it's relative to the skill of the welder and it's negiligble depending on the application.



That table would normally burn, but he put a backing plate behind his pieces before he started welding. That raises a great point: if/when you can put a backing plate behind your butt-weld while working, it's very helpful control blow-through & heat transfer.




Yes, and yes -it was MIG.

The way I make up patches I like to use pieces of stiff cardboard (like the stuff they use for new shirts) to fit into the hole and use it as a template to cut a metal patch. Once you cut the cardboard patch you can check it for fit before cutting metal. Best to make the patch as square as possible (with rounded corners) and if you have a lot of small patches close together it is better to make one large patch for all of it. Tack the new piece in every 1" or so and when you run your beads you should not concentrate your repair in one spot or one side so you do not put in so much heat you warp things. It is, after all, just sheet metal. Do NOT let it cool quickly by using water unless something is on fire. In fact, after welding you should withdraw the flame slowly from the end of the weld. There is so much to all of this that you really should get some instruction. For instance, it is difficult for me to explain how to adjust the flame on the torch, the angle to hold it and the filler rod, how to move the flame, etc. you can learn only so much from reading.

[jangell]

The way I make up patches I like to use pieces of stiff cardboard (like the stuff they use for new shirts) to fit into the hole and use it as a template to cut a metal patch. Once you cut the cardboard patch you can check it for fit before cutting metal.

I saw something similar when I was searching for information on frames. The author had some examples of parts mocked up in cardboard, and then the final version made of steel.


Best to make the patch as square as possible (with rounded corners) and if you have a lot of small patches close together it is better to make one large patch for all of it. Tack the new piece in every 1" or so and when you run your beads you should not concentrate your repair in one spot or one side so you do not put in so much heat you warp things. It is, after all, just sheet metal. Do NOT let it cool quickly by using water unless something is on fire. In fact, after welding you should withdraw the flame slowly from the end of the weld.

Thanks for the tips.


There is so much to all of this that you really should get some instruction. For instance, it is difficult for me to explain how to adjust the flame on the torch, the angle to hold it and the filler rod, how to move the flame, etc. you can learn only so much from reading.

Right; I've found pictures and video showing the neutral flame and the angles, and videos give a reasonable idea of how to move the frame around. I found a local welding supply shop that sells gas to individuals (I was having trouble finding places that didn't seem like they only supplied larger businesses from web searches).

I'm just not good at classes in general; I tend to be self taught for most of what I do, but I understand that oxyfuel welding can be tricky. Since I'm targeting a very specific task (welding a 16 gauge patch to a frame), my plan was to just practice that for a couple of months, or however long it takes until I'm confident that I had good, strong welds. It'll take me months to get through replacing my engine (probably going with a 3.0L swap), so I don't need to rush it.

Thanks again!

-- Joe

[jangell]

I took the upper link arm off of the passenger's side hub carrier to see how bad it was. The link arm has some surface rust, but that's it. The hole the behind the link arm is limited to a 1/4" wide gash behind the arm. The flange that the bolt goes through and the hole that it screws into look to be in excellent shape, so no worries there (I was afraid that this was compromised; if it was, I wasn't sure how I'd fix it). While the needles caller can't take off the deeper rust, it does a good job of knocking loose the weak metal and flaking epoxy so that I can get an idea of how extensive the damage is.

There's a couple of things I'm curious about:

- Besides the gash, the frame behind the link arm is bent, curved to match the shape of the link arm itself. I don't think the frame was originally curved inward before it rusted (meaning; I think it was flat, with no designed cavity for the end of the arm). This implies that the arm was pushed into the frame. If I weld a patch over it, it seems like the link arm itself may no fit properly due to the patch pushing it outward. I think that putting the patch on the inside of the frame and welding it that way would give me an extra 1/8th of an inch of space, but I'm not sure that would matter so much.

- The flange that bolt goes through and the hole it screws into both look undamaged, and do not look bent. The metal around the flange and screw-in point (whatever that bit is called) also looks fine, with no rust or bending. As such, I'm confused about how the link arm would have pushed into the frame. Maybe the bushings in the link arm were giving too much, which allowed them to hit the frame? Seems like this would be a more common problem if it were.

- The gash runs the length of the space between the flange for the bolt and the place it screws into. Not sure how tricky that will make the welding, especially since I can't deform the flange or screw-in point or that would affect alignment (I imagine running a bolt through there will ensure the alignment stays good, assuming I can weld around it). I expected that I'd cut out a rectangular section including the bent parts of the frame behind the link arm and weld a patch over that whole area.

- I'm thinking I would want to do two patches, rather than making a single L-shaped patch that covers this gash and the hole under the frame. mostly so I don't have to make some complex bent shape around the lip of the frame.

Here are some pictures of the damage behind the link arm. The backlit photo helps show the extent of the gash:
25150251512515225153

And some minor rust on the link arm itself:
251552515625157

Thanks again!

-- Joe

[ALEXAKOS]

I sandblasted then powder coated my arms and placed new bushings.
A rather cheap way to get away with it.

[jangell]

Speaking of replacing bushings: a couple years ago I had my lower link arms modified to be adjustable to fix the angle of my rear wheels with shorter springs installed. A friend pressed the link old bushings out for me so that I could replace them as well, but we were quite surprised when the new bushings simply fell right through the holes. The only think we can think of is that we scrapped a little bit of metal off a we pushed the bushings out. Luckily, polyurethane front bushings fit perfectly in the slightly widened holes, so I was able to keep the modified arms.

I later learned that it cost slightly less to buy brand new OEM lower link arms with bushings installed than it was to just buy the two bushings, which had to be pulled out of the an existing link arm (at least from the vendor I got them from at the time; they seem to be much cheaper on delorean.com at the moment). For some reason it didn't occur to me that they'd come assembled.

But yeah, I'm thinking I might just sandblast off the rust and keep using these link arms. I've been wanting to get a small sandblasting cabinet anyway. I'll have to take a closer look at the link arm bushings, but I got the impression that old bushings harden over time, don't they? The damage to the frame (if it occurred due to weak bushings allowing the link arm to slam into the frame) would imply that they got softer instead.

Thanks again!

-- Joe

[jangell]

Resurrecting an old thread to report on what I did:

I took Dave T's advice and learned oxyacetylene welding (the 15A 120V circuit in my garage couldn't handle electric welding). I taught myself (with lots of YouTube videos and googling, because I'm stubborn and didn't want to take classes), practicing with similar sheet metal and some low-performance projects like speaker stands for my desk and a bracelet rack for my wife. Once I was confident enough with that, I cleaned up the car's frame, welded my patches over the holes, POR-15'ed, primed and painted everything. I also discovered another gash above one of the other holes, which i patched and painted with the others.

For the intended area where the upper link-arm attaches, first, that is supposed to be there, and seems to be a formed curved plate that was welded in after the frame cast. I didn't want to risk welding a patch that would interfere with the link arm, so I used some SteelStik (basically JB Weld) to cover the small hole. Seemed to work just fine.

For inside the frame, I got some Eastwood Internal Frame Coating, mostly because it came with an extension wand. I sprayed the entire can inside the weep holes in the the frame. Hopefully I won't have to worry about rust here for a long time.

Full details, pics, etc. can be found on my site: Rust and Holes in the Frame (http://www.tmproductions.com/repairs-and-maintenance-blog/2014/6/8/rust-andholes-in-the-frame).

Thanks again for all the help!

-- Joe

[David T]

Resurrecting an old thread to report on what I did:

I took Dave T's advice and learned oxyacetylene welding (the 15A 120V circuit in my garage couldn't handle electric welding). I taught myself (with lots of YouTube videos and googling, because I'm stubborn and didn't want to take classes), practicing with similar sheet metal and some low-performance projects like speaker stands for my desk and a bracelet rack for my wife. Once I was confident enough with that, I cleaned up the car's frame, welded my patches over the holes, POR-15'ed, primed and painted everything. I also discovered another gash above one of the other holes, which i patched and painted with the others.

For the intended area where the upper link-arm attaches, first, that is supposed to be there, and seems to be a formed curved plate that was welded in after the frame cast. I didn't want to risk welding a patch that would interfere with the link arm, so I used some SteelStik (basically JB Weld) to cover the small hole. Seemed to work just fine.

For inside the frame, I got some Eastwood Internal Frame Coating, mostly because it came with an extension wand. I sprayed the entire can inside the weep holes in the the frame. Hopefully I won't have to worry about rust here for a long time.

Full details, pics, etc. can be found on my site: Rust and Holes in the Frame (http://www.tmproductions.com/repairs-and-maintenance-blog/2014/6/8/rust-andholes-in-the-frame).

Thanks again for all the help!

-- Joe

Consider the JB Weld (epoxy) just a cosmetic repair. In no way is it good for structural repairs. The area around the upper control arm (if that's where you are referring to) is a high stress area and really should be properly repaired, If you see a small hole the area around that small hole is very thin from rust and the whole area should be cut out and patched. When doing this kind of patching, if you see a hole on one side you should also inspect the same symmetrical spot on the other side for similar damage. Now that you have acquired another skill you have more confidence to tackle bigger projects. I understand your desire to learn on your own but that is the slowest, hardest and most dangerous way to learn. Always keep a squirt bottle of water and a pail of water nearby. Try to always have a fire watch when working nearby. Make sure you have flash-back arrestors on the torch handle AND the regulators. Always leave the handle on the acetylene tank when in use. Never use more than 15 lbs pressure on the acetylene. Usually all you need is around 5. Chain the cylinders so they can't fall over. Soap test all connections for leaks. Alwyas use eye protection, not sun glasses. Work safe.

[jangell]

Thanks. I should have emphasized the safety measures I've taken, and the large number of videos and safety papers I read before proceeding. I'm fairly paranoid, so I had a lot of welding-specific clothing, including thick gloves, an apron, a jacket with a high collar, and buttoned sleeves and a cap in case of sparks flying into my hair. I also used fiberglass welding blankets to protect the area from sparks, flashback arresters on the torch and regulators, leak solution to test all the connections, two fire extinguishers, a spray bottle of water, three gallon jugs of water, and a fire blanket. Luckily I didn't need to put out any fires. I also used my#4 welding giggles at all times. I did consider the JB weld to be more of a way to patch what I thought of as a cosmetic hole (it's where the rounded end of the link arm would rub against if not for that curved indentation); this piece of metal seemed like a less critical area, but I may have misread that. Luckily all of the areas where the bolt runs and the surrounding metal look to be in good shape. All the other areas that needed patching I welded. I've also been careful with the acetylene pressure and to leave the handle on the tank when in use, and locked away when not. Early on I read also about how acetylene decomposes and combusts when it comes in contact with air at about atmospheric pressure (15 PSI), and how effective oxygen is at making anything else far more flammable, too. I expect there is still much to learn even so, especially given the specific focus of what I've done so far.

Thanks again!

-- Joe

[David T]

Thanks. I should have emphasized the safety measures I've taken, and the large number of videos and safety papers I read before proceeding. I'm fairly paranoid, so I had a lot of welding-specific clothing, including thick gloves, an apron, a jacket with a high collar, and buttoned sleeves and a cap in case of sparks flying into my hair. I also used fiberglass welding blankets to protect the area from sparks, flashback arresters on the torch and regulators, leak solution to test all the connections, two fire extinguishers, a spray bottle of water, three gallon jugs of water, and a fire blanket. Luckily I didn't need to put out any fires. I also used my#4 welding giggles at all times. I did consider the JB weld to be more of a way to patch what I thought of as a cosmetic hole (it's where the rounded end of the link arm would rub against if not for that curved indentation); this piece of metal seemed like a less critical area, but I may have misread that. Luckily all of the areas where the bolt runs and the surrounding metal look to be in good shape. All the other areas that needed patching I welded. I've also been careful with the acetylene pressure and to leave the handle on the tank when in use, and locked away when not. Early on I read also about how acetylene decomposes and combusts when it comes in contact with air at about atmospheric pressure (15 PSI), and how effective oxygen is at making anything else far more flammable, too. I expect there is still much to learn even so, especially given the specific focus of what I've done so far.

Thanks again!

-- Joe
Sounds like you did your homework! One last thing, hot parts don't look hot unless they are VERY hot so you always have to be careful about burning yourself. Always adjust for a neutral flame. Tack things into place and move around when running beads. Too much heat in one place can make things warp. That's where MIG is better than Oxy-Acetalyne. Time to learn another skill.

[jangell]

I do admit that I was pretty worried when I first lit the torch. Of course, every little pop or slight oddness from the torch spooked me when I was starting out, but I'm reasonably comfortable now. I did almost burn myself a few times by forgetting how long it would take the metal to cool down, but nothing too bad, and never on the torch flame itself. I've finally learned to place my hand near the surface to see how hot it is first and saved myself a lot of red fingers. The worst burn I got was from angle grinding one of the holes while I was under the car; I had my welding jacket on, but I hadn't buttoned the sleeves and a hot chip of metal skipped down my arm. I still have a couple of light marks on my arm from that, but nothing serious. I guess I can consider myself lucky that this is the worst I have.

I found that with the arrestors on I had to use closer to 10 PSI to get a hot enough neutral flame to reliably melt the metal; otherwise I'd just be sitting there watching the metal glow a little but never quite melting into the puddle I needed. I followed your advice and tack the corners and at points along the edge before I weld to avoid problems with the metal expanding. I did discover how quickly the heat could warp metal in one of my practice projects, a bracelet holder rack. It was simply some round metal pegs welded to a strip of bar stock. Because the stock was clamped in a vice and hanging in the air, the heavier end would sag as I heated the metal. I then learned how to straighten the metal back out by heating it and bending it back. It's not a high-load project, so any loss of strength from heating and bending wasn't going to be an issue. I'm still working on consistently "pushing" the molten puddle along, and remembering to remove the filler rod before I remove the heat so that the rod won't stick to the work.

I actually did try a cheap Harbor Freight stick welder when I was having trouble figuring out the pressures due to the arrestors -- the 120v 15A circuit in my garage couldn't even power it on, so MIG/TIG is pretty much out of the question for the time being, I'm afraid. I do like working with oxyfuel, though. I just need more practice.

Thanks!

-- Joe

[David T]

I do admit that I was pretty worried when I first lit the torch. Of course, every little pop or slight oddness from the torch spooked me when I was starting out, but I'm reasonably comfortable now. I did almost burn myself a few times by forgetting how long it would take the metal to cool down, but nothing too bad, and never on the torch flame itself. I've finally learned to place my hand near the surface to see how hot it is first and saved myself a lot of red fingers. The worst burn I got was from angle grinding one of the holes while I was under the car; I had my welding jacket on, but I hadn't buttoned the sleeves and a hot chip of metal skipped down my arm. I still have a couple of light marks on my arm from that, but nothing serious. I guess I can consider myself lucky that this is the worst I have.

I found that with the arrestors on I had to use closer to 10 PSI to get a hot enough neutral flame to reliably melt the metal; otherwise I'd just be sitting there watching the metal glow a little but never quite melting into the puddle I needed. I followed your advice and tack the corners and at points along the edge before I weld to avoid problems with the metal expanding. I did discover how quickly the heat could warp metal in one of my practice projects, a bracelet holder rack. It was simply some round metal pegs welded to a strip of bar stock. Because the stock was clamped in a vice and hanging in the air, the heavier end would sag as I heated the metal. I then learned how to straighten the metal back out by heating it and bending it back. It's not a high-load project, so any loss of strength from heating and bending wasn't going to be an issue. I'm still working on consistently "pushing" the molten puddle along, and remembering to remove the filler rod before I remove the heat so that the rod won't stick to the work.

I actually did try a cheap Harbor Freight stick welder when I was having trouble figuring out the pressures due to the arrestors -- the 120v 15A circuit in my garage couldn't even power it on, so MIG/TIG is pretty much out of the question for the time being, I'm afraid. I do like working with oxyfuel, though. I just need more practice.

Thanks!

-- Joe


There are MIG welders on the market than can run on 15 amps. You may not be using the right size tips if you are up at 10 psi. I usually run around 3-4 psi on the acetylene and around 10 for the Oxygen. I find it works better to run a smaller tip harder than a bigger tip lower. I feel I have more control. Don't try stick. I consider it an inferior type of welding.

[jangell]

I'll have to check the size tip I was using when I go to the garage next, but it was a small tip meant for 1/16" steel (I think size 0, but I'll have to check). At first I was using what I thought were correct values (5 PSI acetylene, 10-15 PSI oxygen), but I just couldn't get anything to melt into a puddle. It wasn't just my attempt to weld, either; I first tried to light up the cutting torch with the recommended pressures, but I couldn't seem to get a blue flame at all (it's been a while; I'm probably not remembering what exactly I was seeing, but I know it wasn't enough to cut anything). This is where having someone else around who knew what they were doing would probably have been helpful. I later noticed that the arrestors said they'd need more pressure for the torch to operate properly, so I assumed that was the problem. I'm using a Uniweld KLC100CT (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008BH5VXA/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1) kit.

I mispoke about the Harbor Freight welder; it was a flux core welder like this one (http://www.harborfreight.com/90-amp-ac-120-volt-flux-cored-welder-61849.html), not a stick welder. I have gotten the impression that stick is a hard to work with and not worth the trouble, but if you have to car batteries and a coat hanger and are in the middle of the desert with no help for 200 miles with a broken axle that it's better than nothing. Not that that sort of thing comes up very often. :)

-- Joe

[Josh]

There are MIG welders on the market than can run on 15 amps. You may not be using the right size tips if you are up at 10 psi. I usually run around 3-4 psi on the acetylene and around 10 for the Oxygen. I find it works better to run a smaller tip harder than a bigger tip lower. I feel I have more control. Don't try stick. I consider it an inferior type of welding.

I have a Lincoln 140A 120V welder, works great on this thin 16ga sheetmetal used on the frame.
I wouldn't call arc inferior, its just used for different applications. Lets see you weld mig in a windy field repairing a piece of far equipment, or to repair a ruptured pipeline. How about under water?

Anyways, great work once again Joe, I love your blog it is very well put together one of the best Ive seen for any topic!
Also shipping your package out this week. Sorry again for taking so long. Included some extra pieces for all the troubles!

[jangell]

Maybe I will be considering a MIG in the future. The fact that the Harbor Fright flux core welder wouldn't even turn on makes me wonder just how much power my garage can handle (or if the welder was bad). MIG seems particularly useful in situations where throwing a bunch of heat from a torch would damage things near the welding area. I imagine it's also probably easier to do tricks like welding nuts onto broken bolts to create new bolts heads. As a test I tried something sort of similar, where I oxyfuel welded a washer onto the end of a metal peg -- it almost immediately liquified; I'd forgotten to consider that the washer might of a softer metal than the steel peg.

Thanks for the shipping update. I'll still have a few weekends of figuring out where all the hoses go and how they hook up to the 3.0L, so the parts should get here right about the time I'm ready for them. Then I just have to figure out how to put your EFI parts on. :)

And thanks for your words about the blog. The only problem I find is when 6 months later I realize that something I put up is exactly not how to do it (like when I removed the pistons and liners from the 2.8L and didn't keep track of which piston went to which liner; luckily that was just an exercise, and I didn't need the parts) and have to remember to go back and update it in case anyone tries to follow my example. It also means I have to be sure to put disclaimers that basically say, "I'm basically making this up as I go along." :)

-- Joe

[dn010]

In a pinch when my last MIG welder died, I ordered a Forney 306 from Amazon. If you can see yourself using a MIG welder or other heavier equipment for future projects, it's worth it to install a dedicated circuit in your garage for them that can handle the load. It is nice to have both MIG and torch for welding and cutting, makes life much easier depending on what you're working on.

Good job on the frame (just keep an eye on it in case that rust creeps back) and good luck with the rest of your endeavors, EFI was a fun conversion.

[jangell]

Thanks! I rent the garage (the condo association disapproves of dismantling cars in the parking lot). I can't directly add new circuits myself, although I bet they'd put them in if I paid for them. In fact, it didn't have any power there at all for about a year. The 100 year old knob and tube wiring was pretty unsafe, and I elected not to use it until new wiring could be run. And if I trip a breaker (which hasn't happened yet), I can't get to the fuse box, since it's locked inside the adjacent building. I used scooter batteries and LED truck lights during that time (which actually worked quite well), dragging them back home to recharge them, and cordless power tools when I needed them. But the rent is really, really cheap, so I'll make do. There's little need for power most of the time anyway.

I'll definitely keep an eye on the frame. This isn't the first bad rust problem i'd had -- one of the pontoons (forks, whatever they're called) on the front frame extension snapped right off once. I only noticed when I was under the car looking at a cooling issue. A shop local to where the car was at the time welded that up, building a box of patches around it. I can't remember what kind of welding setup they did, but I'm guessing it was MIG.

-- Joe

[Bitsyncmaster]

I will have to play with welding with oxygen/acetylene. I have one of those smaller portable sets that I use for brazing and heating stuck bolts. It also has a cutting torch but I have not used that either.

I am spoiled with my 110 volt MIG welder which has worked fine on a 20 amp circuit. They spec a 25 amp if your running full power. I use gas for shielding rather than flux shielding wire. I also have a stick welder but have not used that since I bought my MIG.

My MIG welding is pretty much limited to 0.050" thinnest sheet steel. Would like to get a TIG someday.

[David T]

I will have to play with welding with oxygen/acetylene. I have one of those smaller portable sets that I use for brazing and heating stuck bolts. It also has a cutting torch but I have not used that either.

I am spoiled with my 110 volt MIG welder which has worked fine on a 20 amp circuit. They spec a 25 amp if your running full power. I use gas for shielding rather than flux shielding wire. I also have a stick welder but have not used that since I bought my MIG.

My MIG welding is pretty much limited to 0.050" thinnest sheet steel. Would like to get a TIG someday.

For MIG welding you are much better off using a shielding gas than flux core wire which is expensive anyway. TIG is the ultimate but it takes a lot to learn how to do it well. If you can learn how to gas weld first it makes transitioning to TIG much easier when you learn how to puddle. MIG is the easiest to learn. Stick is difficult to learn, it takes a lot of control to get good at it. Gas welding is the most versatile of all. You can use it to heat things, harden things, cut, weld, braze, anneal, normalize, and solder. No other system can do all of that. And you don't need any electric. Once you master gas welding you can add other types of welding to your skills much easier. You need a chart of tip sizes and gas pressures so you know the range you are working in so you at least know what to start working with as far as type and thickness of metals, filler rod, pressures, and type size. There once was an episode of Mcgyver where he fixed a broken connecting rod with a battery, a set of jumper cables and a quarter. Mythbusters should try doing that!

[jangell]

Here's a video (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCYQtwIwAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DPV5 oLPLUzrM&ei=hDVRVZKgB8zlsAS15YDwDQ&usg=AFQjCNESJhqZ3vPXlC84jSlUSOOyyHyyxQ&bvm=bv.92885102,d.cWc) about how to do it with two car batteries and a coat hanger. :)

I remember hearing that on MacGuyver and Burn Notice that they'd occasionally leave out key steps for certain things so that kids (or foolish people) wouldn't hurt themselves by trying something at home, which could explain why they used only one battery.


One other reason I didn't think I could get away with MIG in my garage was that 1/16" sheet metal seemed to be at the very limit of what you could do with 120v. It's been a while since i looked, though. Being able to weld anything and that learning gas welding meant that the other types were easier to pick up was a nice bonus. It's mostly the canisters of dangerous gases that are the big downside; it seems a lot easier to badly hurt yourself with oxyfuel than MIG/TIG. I'd had the power, I probably would have gone with MIG for safety and ease of learning, but I have no regrets about learning oxyfuel.

I just realized that I didn't mention the quality of my welds. They seem decently strong once I got the 'push the puddle' thing figured out, but they're not very pretty. Definitely not a nice, smooth bead suitable for finish work, but as long as they hold, I'm not too worried about that. Just need more practice..

-- Joe

[Bitsyncmaster]

One other reason I didn't think I could get away with MIG in my garage was that 1/16" sheet metal seemed to be at the very limit of what you could do with 120v.

-- Joe

By 0.050" I meant that is the thinnest steel I can weld without a lot of burn through. No problem with 1/8" steel and I have even done a few jobs with 1/4" steel with my 110 volt MIG. For thicker metal you just run a wider bead so the base metal heats.

[David T]

By 0.050" I meant that is the thinnest steel I can weld without a lot of burn through. No problem with 1/8" steel and I have even done a few jobs with 1/4" steel with my 110 volt MIG. For thicker metal you just run a wider bead so the base metal heats.

To check on the quality of your welding make some samples and cut them apart through the weld. The other way is to put them in a vise and bend them back and forth to see where they break. hopefully not at your welds. If you are burning through you have too big a tip. When you are good you should be able to weld .030 without blowing through. When doing patches you should have the smallest gap you can create, 1/16 or less. If you find you are having too much trouble you can try lap joints, not butt joints. You may also not be moving your puddle fast enough and/or running too much pressure or holding the torch too close to the work. This is why you really should have someone teach you. They can see what you are doing wrong and correct any habits before they become too engrained. A word or comment can really improve your work quickly.

[aotmfilms]

Thanks! I rent the garage (the condo association disapproves of dismantling cars in the parking lot).

Yeah I'm in the same boat as you. I will have to rent a garage for working on the car.

[aotmfilms]

I understand your desire to learn on your own but that is the slowest, hardest and most dangerous way to learn.

That is why I plan on taking a couple of CC courses on engine/trans/body repair. For in State tuition is $320 per 3 credit hours. The good thing is if you take Automotive classes at the Community College here they will let you bring your car in to work on. Other Community Colleges may do the same? Something to think about. That is how I plan on doing some things that I cannot currently do (such as welding).