Sepeparatr auto transmission from engine?

[jangell]

I just want to make sure I don't break anything here:

I have finally removed the engine/trans from the car (and I "only" dropped it once -- as I was lowering it to the ground I wanted to stop and turned the valve on the hoist the wrong way. Luckily the soft plastic pan I had on the ground broke its fall, rewarding me by pouring oil/coolant everywhere).

I've removed the starter and unbolted the four bolts that seem to be holding the engine and trans together. I understand there are also a couple of pins connecting them as well, and that I might need a pet at to break them free. Before I tried to lift the engine away from the trans with the hoist, I checked the workshop manual to be sure I got everything and found this in G:07:01:

17. Remove the converter inspection plate.

18. Remove the bolts securing the torque converter to the flex plate.

I of course didn't so this while it was in the car, and the engine/trans are now sitting on plywood I was using to make a smoother rolling surface on the floor.

Presumably I need to get these out. I gather I need to lift the engine and rest it on something solid. I know OF the flex plate, and I actually know what the torque converter does, but I don't know quote where they are (except, apparently, under the engine/trans).

Thanks!

-- Joe

Here's a few pictures of how it's sitting right now. I realize I probably should have rested it on some 2x4s, but it really wasn't clear to me how to do that and keep it level for separating cleanly.

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[DMC5180]

Temporally reinstall the Bell housing bolts. Once you've done that, Rest the engine/ trans on blocks or even a couple saw horses. Keep the chain hoist attached and under tension to prevent tipping. Once you have things stabilized. You will need to put a socket on the crankshaft pulley nut. You need to rotate the crank shaft in order to expose the Torque converter bolts (viewable thru the openings of those closing plates). Remove the bolts as required. Set it back on the floor and you can Remove the bell housing bolts to separate the trans. The torque converter will stay with the transmission.

[jangell]

Ah, thank you very much -- I have no idea how long it would have taken me to figure out where those bolts where. I have some large pallets I made to raise the car (I lift the car and put the pallets under the wheels; I can do this in stages to get to different heights), so I can use those to fire the engine/trans off the ground, and I'll use the hoist as you say to stabilize it.

Just so I'm clear on the "closing plates": Is this what the workshop manual describes as the "converter inspection plate", which I think is part 22 in this diagram (http://store.delorean.com/c-387-4-5-1-torque-convertercasing.aspx)? I'm curious if the bolts are also accessible from the left/right sides of the engine where you can see toothed gear the starter meshes with (I had thought this was the flywheel, but apparently on the auto its a flex plate?).

I gather this is easier to do when the engine/trans is still in the car, if only because it's mounted to a stable frame.

I should be able to give this a try either tomorrow or next weekend. Thanks!

-- Joe

[DMC5180]

Yes, those are the closing plates. Your removing Item #1 Bolt in the illustration. Looks too be 3 of them. On an auto trans, the ring gear is mounted on the Flexplate.

You should be able to see the bolt heads on Either side of the engine. I not sure on the bottom though That's a shallower plate but I'd think you can there too.

[jangell]

Great -- it actually looks like I could get to them without lifting the engine/trans of the ground, but keeping the hoist in place to stabilize it. I was looking through the photos I took today and found this one clearly showing what I thin kid one of the bolts connecting the flex plate to the torque converter.

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Thanks again! And apologies for the mangled spelling of "separating" in the thread title; not sure how I did that.

-- Joe

[David T]

Great -- it actually looks like I could get to them without lifting the engine/trans of the ground, but keeping the hoist in place to stabilize it. I was looking through the photos I took today and found this one clearly showing what I thin kid one of the bolts connecting the flex plate to the torque converter.

24355

Thanks again! And apologies for the mangled spelling of "separating" in the thread title; not sure how I did that.

-- Joe

Before removing the bolts mark the flex plate and the torque convertor position so you can reassemble it easily. They are not symmetrical, ie, you MUST line the torque converter and flex plate up exactly to get all of the bolts back in. When removing the transmission be careful to hold the converter so it doesn't slide out. If it does it can unbalance you and fall, the converter is heavy and can hurt you, and the trany fluid will get all over the place. The pins are for location only and do not hold things together but they can stick and make it hard to get things apart. You might have to pry a little to get it started. Leave some wood under things when you lower them down next time. You can crack the floor and break parts off of the motor/transaxle.

[jangell]

Before removing the bolts mark the flex plate and the torque convertor position so you can reassemble it easily. They are not symmetrical, ie, you MUST line the torque converter and flex plate up exactly to get all of the bolts back in.

I did not know that -- thanks for the tip.


When removing the transmission be careful to hold the converter so it doesn't slide out. If it does it can unbalance you and fall, the converter is heavy and can hurt you, and the trany fluid will get all over the place.

Is the idea that as the two start to come apart, you can see the converter and slip a pry bar or screwdriver against it to keep it with the transmission? Or push it form the engine side past the flex plate? I'm just curious how you hold the converter while separating the engine and transmission.


The pins are for location only and do not hold things together but they can stick and make it hard to get things apart. You might have to pry a little to get it started.

Ok, that sounds straight forward enough.


Leave some wood under things when you lower them down next time. You can crack the floor and break parts off of the motor/transaxle.

The good news is that the floor is covered in sheets of plywood at the moment, as there was no way I was going to be able to roll the loaded hoist over the hundred year old garage floor with all the broken concrete and holes it had. I admit that it's probably not as good as having some 2x4s underneath, though, so I'll do that the next time I lower it.

Thanks!

-- Joe

[David T]

I did not know that -- thanks for the tip.



Is the idea that as the two start to come apart, you can see the converter and slip a pry bar or screwdriver against it to keep it with the transmission? Or push it form the engine side past the flex plate? I'm just curious how you hold the converter while separating the engine and transmission.
admit that it's probably not as good as having some 2x4s underneath, though, so I'll do that the next time I lower it.

Thanks!

-- Joe

Once you get the transmission to start coming off you stick a big screwdriver or pry bar in between and try to push the torque converter always towards the transmission. Helps if the motor is kept tipped up a little so you have gravity working for you too. Once you are off the pins (about a 1/2") you have gotten it apart.

[jangell]

A quick follow-up: Thanks to the advice here, I was able to get the engine and transmission separated without any problems (well, once I remembered to unmount the fill tube from the cylinder head, that is). I do sort of wonder how I'll be getting everything back together, but I'll worry about that later. :) The torque converter did stick on the shift in the center of the flex plate, so it's a good thing David T mentioned using a pry bar to make sure that it stays with the transmission. I did hoist the engine just a tiny bit off the ground so that I wasn't sliding it against the ground and to let gravity help separate the engine and transmission.

I still have to put the engine on the stand; I'm mostly delayed by not being able to find longer M10x1.5 bolts locally, and I think the arms on my engine stand might not be long enough to reach both of the outer mounting bolts, but I still have to fiddle with it more to be sure.

I'm guessing that the surface rust on the flex plate and torque converter housing are nothing to be worried about, but I do wonder if I should try to clean it off before re-assembly. The silver marks in the picture are the alignment marks I made to make re-assembly easier, as David T suggested.

Thanks again!

-- Joe

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[David T]

A quick follow-up: Thanks to the advice here, I was able to get the engine and transmission separated without any problems (well, once I remembered to unmount the fill tube from the cylinder head, that is). I do sort of wonder how I'll be getting everything back together, but I'll worry about that later. :) The torque converter did stick on the shift in the center of the flex plate, so it's a good thing David T mentioned using a pry bar to make sure that it stays with the transmission. I did hoist the engine just a tiny bit off the ground so that I wasn't sliding it against the ground and to let gravity help separate the engine and transmission.

I still have to put the engine on the stand; I'm mostly delayed by not being able to find longer M10x1.5 bolts locally, and I think the arms on my engine stand might not be long enough to reach both of the outer mounting bolts, but I still have to fiddle with it more to be sure.

I'm guessing that the surface rust on the flex plate and torque converter housing are nothing to be worried about, but I do wonder if I should try to clean it off before re-assembly. The silver marks in the picture are the alignment marks I made to make re-assembly easier, as David T suggested.

Thanks again!

-- Joe

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I like to use a centerpunch and make a dimple on each piece. If you use paint or marker it can come off when you clean the parts. The critical spots are the 4 pads on the convertor where they contact the flywheel and the spots on the flywheel. Also the center where the torque converter sits into. Careful with that torque converter, it is heavy because it is full of transmission fluid. When you remove the torque converter you can also remove the bar that powers the pump.
Now that you have the transmission out what are your plans? If it is working all you should be doing is draining and refiling the fluid and cleaning the filter. Replace any leaking external seals. Clean the exterior.

[jangell]

I'm hoping to the leave transmission pretty much as-is; it's relatively new (~4 years old, I think). I expect lining up the torque converter with the flex plate during re-installation is going to be a pain, even with the marks I made (which sound like they're less thorough than what you usually do). I have had a few leaks in my various transmissions that I've never quite been able to get rid of, although this one's been pretty good lately (only very slightly leaks, but I'm not quite sure where from). I don't suppose there's a good way to bench-test for leaks, is there? Too bad I don't have some high-torque electric motor and a coolant rig that I could hook up to just spin it up to a high speed and see what leaks out where...

Anyway, I went through this whole processes due to a hole about the size of a pen in the top of the engine block, in a lower-pressure portion of the valley (Dave Swingle said it's block rot into the crankcase). Here's the thread about it: http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?8381-Oil-in-VOD/page3. I need to clean the engine off and look for other damage, and then I have to decide if I'm going to figure out how to take it apart and clean out the debris that fell in it and find someone who can weld aluminum, or do a Dodge Monaco/Eagle Premier engine. I was starting on an EFI conversion when I found the hole, so the need to do my own fuel and spark for the Monaco/Premier engine doesn't concern me too much.

I also have to decide what to do about the 1.5" hole rusted through the frame under the rear passenger upper link arm, and see how much more rust there is, which should be easier now that the engine and transmission are out of the way. I understand that at worst I'm looking at a frame swap, and at best I'm looking at finding someone who can weld patches over the hole(s).

Thanks!

-- Joe

[DMC5180]

The easiest way to refit/align a transmission is to make some guide pins. Get a couple extra M10 x 1.50 bolts at least 70MM long bolt then cut the heads off. Thread then into the bottom bellhousing holes. This will let you slide the the trans up to the flex plate. Make sure a couple flex plate/Torque converter bolt holes are rotated into the access areas so you can use a line up punch of some sort. Once the TC bolt hole alignments are close you can put the upper Bellhousing bolts in and draw the cases together. Then remove the lower guide pins (pliers/vise-grips/fingers) depending how snuggle the threads are and replace with the correct bolts. You shoud easily be able to tweak/adjust the TC to flex plate with a line up punch ( or big phillips screwdriver) for TC Bolt fitment.

[SS Spoiler]

Don't do what I did, left the alignment pins out and drove to Las Vegas from MN. Real fun putting the pins back in without pulling the tranny out.

[DMC5180]

Don't do what I did, left the alignment pins out and drove to Las Vegas from MN. Real fun putting the pins back in without pulling the tranny out.

Your referring to the Dowel/rollpins in the flange. Those are completely separate from Shop AID sawed off bolts I'm speaking of using. Still a good point to make sure they are in the flange prior to re-assembly though.

[jangell]

The easiest way to refit/align a transmission is to make some guide pins. Get a couple extra M10 x 1.50 bolts at least 70MM long bolt then cut the heads off. Thread then into the bottom bellhousing holes. This will let you slide the the trans up to the flex plate. Make sure a couple flex plate/Torque converter bolt holes are rotated into the access areas so you can use a line up punch of some sort. Once the TC bolt hole alignments are close you can put the upper Bellhousing bolts in and draw the cases together. Then remove the lower guide pins (pliers/vise-grips/fingers) depending how snuggle the threads are and replace with the correct bolts. You shoud easily be able to tweak/adjust the TC to flex plate with a line up punch ( or big phillips screwdriver) for TC Bolt fitment.

That's an excellent idea -- I'll give that a shot when the time comes. Thanks!

-- Joe