Front brake ugrade kit

[easy now]

Hi Guys,

As mentioned before in my other post, I have been working on a big brake upgrade kit.
Rotors are Wilwood 10.75" vented, cross-drilled and slotted 2 piece design with an aluminum hat.
Calipers are Wilwood as well, 4 piston low profile dynapro series.
I was going make a the caliper brackets one piece, but I had a few guys pm me asking about bigger rotors for larger wheel combos.
Therefore, I have decided to keep them a 2 piece design and can accomodate from stock wheels up to any rotor diameter. Originally I thought
that most people want to keep the original wheels, which is what I am doing.
This kit is designed to be a truly bolt on assembly with all the fittngs, adapters, hardware, etc.
I will get pics and more details up shortly.

Thanks

[easy now]

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[opethmike]

Do you have an estimate on how much this will cost?

[easy now]

I am still working on a price, should have that in the next week or so.

[Mark D]

I like what you've got going on here...really nice looking setup.

I see you've also got some interesting tie rod ends on your steering rack. What's the story behind those?

[easy now]

thanks,

I needed to replace my tie-rod ends and these cost about the same.

[easy now]

Rotors : Left and right

Product Number: 160-7097-BK Price: $147.90
Product Number: 160-7098-BK Price: $147.90

Caliper; 2 needed

Product Number: 120-12160 Price: $149.93

Pads

Product Number: 150-11363K Price: $64.43

This is off Wilwood's website. These are the parts that I have utilized in my kit.
I can offer a complete package or you can purchase these separately from a place like Summit or Jegs, if you prefer, and I can supply the rest which
would include the modified hats, caliper brackets, braided brake lines, (choice of silver or black), caliper fittings, metric adapters for the stock steel ends and all the hardware needed.

[DeLorean03]

Eddie and I are looking to install this on my car now that the VR6 engine is nearly complete. I hate to ask you to do the legwork, but if you can gather up EVERYTHING we need to be able to install this brake system on the front and ONLY the front of the car, we would be very appreciative, and I'd be ready to buy it.

We know upgrading the engine and putting down 250+ HP at the wheels is going to require a serious brake upgrade, so we're not "feeling this out"; I am ready to buy this kind of equipment. You can PM me if you like regarding this. Thank you!

[easy now]

I have done all the legwork.

That is why I have listed the parts above.
I am not posting this to try and sell a whole bunch of kits for profit. That is why I stated you can buy from Wilwood, Jegs, Summit, etc.
I'm just trying to help out fellow owners that might be intersested in having a better braking system on their car.
The parts that I can offer need to be machined/ fabricated to complete.

[easy now]

So far, I have 7 guys that are serious about doing this upgrade.

My machinist wants to know how many hat mods/ brackets he has to do in order to give me an exact price.

Please let me know

[DeLorean03]

You got one serious person ready to go from me.

We're upgrading the front brakes, so whatever your machinist needs to fabricate - put me down for an pair of everything he needs to make.

[Dangermouse]

Easy now, have your actually got this set up installed and running on your car? If so, how long for and what has been your experience?

[DCUK Martin]

I'd like to see a back-to-back comparison with refurbished original callipers. Those new Willwood's don't look large enough to give a significant increase in pot area?

[DMCMW Dave]

I'd like to see a back-to-back comparison with refurbished original callipers. Those new Willwood's don't look large enough to give a significant increase in pot area?

I'm concerned about upgrading only one end of the car. If you don't get all the volumes etc. correct it may tend to upset the balance. This car has a somewhat unusual brake balance to start with due to the rear engine and larger tires in the rear.

[easy now]

I hope to have an exact price from my machinist next week.

[easy now]

I finally have a chance to reply to the valid questions asked.

First off vented rotors will offer a huge advantage over solid rotors.

Second, Pascal was a wise man.

If a U-tube is filled with water and pistons are placed at each end, pressure exerted against the left piston will be transmitted throughout the liquid and against the bottom of the right piston. (The pistons are simply "plugs" that can slide freely but snugly inside the tube.) The pressure that the left piston exerts against the water will be exactly equal to the pressure the water exerts against the right piston. Suppose the tube on the right side is made wider and a piston of a larger area is used; for example, the piston on the right has 50 times the area of the piston on the left. If a 1 N load is placed on the left piston, an additional pressure (nearly 1 N/cm2) due to the weight of the load is transmitted throughout the liquid and up against the larger piston. The difference between force and pressure is important: the additional pressure is exerted against every square centimeter of the larger piston. Since there is 50 times the area, 50 times as much force is exerted on the larger piston. Thus, the larger piston will support a 50 N load - fifty times the load on the smaller piston.

Forces can be multiplied using such a device. One newton input produces 50 newtons output. By further increasing the area of the larger piston (or reducing the area of the smaller piston), forces can be multiplied, in principle, by any amount. Pascal's principle underlies the operation of the hydraulic press. The hydraulic press does not violate energy conservation, because a decrease in distance moved compensates for the increase in force. When the small piston is moved downward 10 centimeters, the large piston will be raised only one-fiftieth of this, or 0.2 centimeters. The input force multiplied by the distance moved by the smaller piston is equal to the output force multiplied by the distance moved by the larger piston; this is one more example of a simple machine operating on the same principle as a mechanical lever.

Pascal's principle applies to all fluids, whether gases or liquids. A typical application of Pascal's principle for gases and liquids is the automobile lift seen in many service stations (the hydraulic jack). Increased air pressure produced by an air compressor is transmitted through the air to the surface of oil in an underground reservoir. The oil, in turn, transmits the pressure to a piston, which lifts the automobile. The relatively low pressure that exerts the lifting force against the piston is about the same as the air pressure in automobile tires. Hydraulics is employed by modern devices ranging from very small to enormous. For example, there are hydraulic pistons in almost all construction machines where heavy loads are involved.

[easy now]

I NEED TO STATE THIS AGAIN<<<<<<<<<<<< I am not on here trying to sell you guys my brake system or debate the fundamentals of how brakes work.

For the stock Delorean, the stock brakes are adequate, not good!, but adequate. For those of us who have increased the hp, better brakes are a must!
I have chosen to do this, and just trying to help out,,,, that's all.
I am also designing a rear system as well. There is a thing called an adjustable proportioning valve that can tailor any brake system to suit your needs.

Thanks for looking guys.

p.s. the stock brakes are 70's technology and very pricey for what they are.

[DCUK Martin]

Calm down.

You are stating that your new setup is an improvement, yet unless you've increased the pot area, it isn't - period. Please inform us the diameter of each of your 4 pots versus the diameter of each of the two originals?

A proprtioning valve deliberately puts a restriction into the system to account for an imbalance rather than properly redesigning the system.




First off vented rotors will offer a huge advantage over solid rotors.

Only in terms of their ability to dissipate heat. You do not get any improvement in braking effort or control.

[easy now]

What is the pot area? Is that the area of the piston?????
Again,,,,, didn't want to have a debate, just don't understand your lingo.

And, if all you want to do is debate, that is fine too.
When I have time, I will educate you.

[DCUK Martin]

Is the phrase "4 pot callipers" not used in North America? Apologies, I'd assumed it was pretty universal. Yes, pot = piston.

I had the diameters of both the DeLorean pistons somewhere but can't for the life of me find it. It may have been in the DMCTalk archive. I think it was Cineman who provided them.

You don't need to be on the defensive, you certainly don't need to "educate" me. please just confirm the diameter of the pistons in your callipers versus the diameter of the pistons on the original callipers.

Edit: Found them

Front 54mm (2290mm^2 per calliper per side)
Rear 48mm (1809mm^2 per calliper per side)

The 4-pots from HiSpec that I use have 38.6mm pistons, giving an area of 2340mm^2 per calliper per side. Fractionally more on the front, roughly 30% more on the rear. My kit then uses 265mm discs front and 285mm rear and I supply it with a 50/50 master cylinder.

Edit again:

According to the info on Summit, the piston diameter of your Willwood calliper is 1.12" (=28.45mm) for a total of 1271mm^2 per calliper per side.

That is a long way short of the pot area (and therefore force) provided by the original callipers.

[easy now]

Pascal's law obviously wasn't a good read for you. I can't understand why F1 cars 8 piston calipers,

[easy now]

Pascal's law obviously wasn't a good read for you.

I can't understand why F1 cars have 8 piston calipers, must be so don't have as much force.

And I guess that goes for Lamborghini, Ferrari, McLaren, or any of the car manufacturers.

Again, I said I didn't want to start a debate, please do some more homework. Pot size is the smallest equazion in a brake system.

[TTait]

Easy Now (I'd love to call you by name - I'm Tom)

I understand you point about vented rotors - by dissapating more heat there would be less fade as the brakes overheat. That's noteworthy if you are racing and constantly on the brakes and off, but less critical for day to day driving. Depends on how you will be driving the car.

I've read the Pascals law thing before, both here and on the original Wikipedia post. Its all about the application, as you know.

Martin's math looks right though, it sure looks like the new setup would have less braking power than more - so something is missing from the equation I guess. Where is his math different from yours? Are you running twice the number of pistons he is giving you credit for?

Sometimes folks on the forums can get upset over things like which subwoofer sounds better - this is not one of those debates. Brakes are life and death - serious stuff.

The vendors are not in a position to offer a brake upgrade without not just the development, but a lot of real world testing too. Its not clear if you are running on these brakes or not yet, but it sounds like some are ready to hop onto your initial development and pop them into cars that are about to go. If you are still in development someone could leapfrog past you, bolt everything together without all of the understanding and thought you have put into this.

Nobody is saying your wrong, but both your wikipedia quote and Martins comments are both right. I think the goal here is to make sure everyone is on the same page is all.

Brakes are life and death. You know that or you wouldn't have started this project.

Tom

[easy now]

For the concerned people talking about life and death, you can not be on a Delorean website talking about brakes. If you are, then, you have way bigger issues.

I am done with this website.

Pretty sad that I just wanted to help fellow owners out.

[TTait]

Wow.

Having been put in my place, I will now go seek therapy for being polite. I was hoping you were actually on to something, rather than just saying your math is wrong.

Please be careful on your test drive, you may find that you need to brake harder and then the rears lock up on you. Try a dry straight road with no innocent people around. Maybe take the left fender off the car before you try it - they are in short supply.

Tom

[Tillsy]

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=25634&d=1393110794

[DeLorean03]

Just throwing it out there,

I am grateful for your contributions. I saw the price lists you provided and am still ready to order. I just want to know with confidence that you are still having your machinist fabricate all the necessary hardware so Eddie and I can buy the parts you listed on other websites, order the stuff from your machinist, and install it on my car.

Some of us are very grateful. Please don't let a chosen few who are antagonizing you (by PMs I am assuming) ruin it for the rest of us.

I can't imagine this escalated just by the comments here. Tom and Martin were pretty respectful and only were asking what I felt to be valid questions. There must be more to the story than just what we all are seeing in this topic thread.

I am interested in your system as you've done the vast majority of the work, and Eddie feels confident in your efforts. That doesn't just happen, for you to gain his confidence and approval is not minimal. We can devise our own system, but why do that when someone else has already done it. That's why we're so interested and want to go your route.

Either way, hope things work out!

[TTait]

Please don't let a chosen few who are antagonizing you (by PMs I am assuming) ruin it for the rest of us.

I can't imagine this escalated just by the comments here. Tom and Martin were pretty respectful and only were asking what I felt to be valid questions. There must be more to the story than just what we all are seeing in this topic thread.

No PMs sent or received here - I was just asking...

I hope it works out too...

[DeLorean03]

Oh well then. His setup was cool and would have been convenient to use. If he chooses to leave this forum, Eddie and I can devise something else. No biggie.

[Tillsy]

Please don't let a chosen few who are antagonizing you (by PMs I am assuming) ruin it for the rest of us.

I can't imagine this escalated just by the comments here. Tom and Martin were pretty respectful and only were asking what I felt to be valid questions. There must be more to the story than just what we all are seeing in this topic thread.

I've read this thread several times and he made it very clear he was specifically getting angry that anybody dared to ask questions - in a nutshell it basically went...

Q:Why are you using blue?

A:You have much bigger issues if you are concerned about blue, the quantum physics of a black hole are entirely relevant how dare you raise the topic of life and death, the only thing that matters is it's on WikiPedia, go read it, wasn't it a good read, don't you know it is the most accurate source of facts for life, the universe, and everything, please do some homework, holy crap stop asking me questions I'm right just accept that I just wanted to help out, I'm never come back here again.

[opethmike]

What an amazing rage quit.

[SEO Motorsports]

The brakes on the 2JZ car would lock up easy using those 4 pot units, what's the issue? 11" rotor helped a lot too. I forgot to add I changed the master to a Willwood unit; that would change the math too.

[DCUK Martin]

No PMs with me either.

It reads to me as if he hadn't looked at the numbers and instead just assumed that "4 will always be better than 2", then put a lot of work in on that assumption.

[easy now]

I will pm the guys that still want me to supply them with the remaining pieces for this kit.

Don't worry I will not screw the guys that actually want this for their cars and have already ordered the calipers and rotors.

As for mr pot size, I had a chance to see that he sells a 4 pot system in the uk. Wow what a coincidence!

I guess if I was selling a $4000 kit, I would be on here cutting up the Wilwood stuff too.

Wait a minute!!!!!!!! Actually , NO I wouldn't.

[opethmike]

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[jamesrguk]

No PMs with me either.

It reads to me as if he hadn't looked at the numbers and instead just assumed that "4 will always be better than 2", then put a lot of work in on that assumption.

I have to say I've seen/spoken too and ridden in a dmc with Martin's set up and there's no doubt it's the real deal, I'm sure you can make up kits etc... For a little less but as with most things, DMC or otherwise you are paying a little extra for the piece of mind that it will fit and work.

I can't fault Martin on his maths, quite simply I'm pretty poor at the maths side of things, but what he's posted makes logical sense to me and I know Martin has a significant amount of hands on experience with hydraulic systems both automotive and otherwise.

The stock system, 'if' working correctly is adequate for 99.9% of DeLorean owners/ drivers but if your pushing a few extra hp then it's certainly an area I would look to upgrade.

It's easy to blame something which isn't set up or properly maintained, just like K-jet, if you understand it, it can work well but most don't (myself included) and get frustrated when it starts messing around after 30 years of neglect (again I'm guilty of this lol).

Another example is poor handling issues, "the DeLorean handles badly" well actually if you renew all the bushes, springs, shocks etc.... With new components then you can have a pretty decent handling car, it didn't leave the factory with 30y/o bushes on it, but again easier to point the finger at the old oem parts which have in many cases seen lack of upkeep and investment.

Sorry not really sure where all that came from, or indeed if it's at all relevant I didn't mean to rant, and sorry for going o/t

As people have eluded too, with brakes you need to get it right..... First time!

J

[DCUK Martin]

As for mr pot size, I had a chance to see that he sells a 4 pot system in the uk. Wow what a coincidence!


Yes, because I have developed a 4 pot brake system (and said so), I'm interested in others offering (on the face of it) similar products. That's just good sense.

I've challenged your numbers, you respond with sarcasm and point me to basic science which only serves to back up my maths if you follow it through. Tell me where I'm wrong and I'll keep quiet..

[Bitsyncmaster]

This thread has got me thinking about brake design. It would seem the best way to increase braking force would be to use a larger disk so the pads can move further from the center line. It would also seem increasing the piston surface area and or more pistons could put more pressure onto the pads. So more smaller pistons could be mounted further out on the disks.

How do the single piston, single side sliding calipers get the required brake force (used on most of today's daily drivers)?

[TTait]

How do the single piston, single side sliding calipers get the required brake force (used on most of today's daily drivers)?

Boyle’s law states that at constant temperature for a fixed mass, the absolute pressure and the volume of a gas are inversely proportional. The law can also be stated in a slightly different manner, that the product of absolute pressure and volume is always constant...

(couldn't resist)

[easy now]

After talking to a few people, and having read this discussion,

I need to respond,
First off, again, I did not want to start a debate on here.
Secondly, most guys as well as myself are only interested in doing the fronts right now.
That is why I have chosen that diameter piston, I have been in the auto performance industry for over 25 years, not just Deloreans.
If anyone would like a bigger pot, that is easy, that's the beauty of using a reputable company like Wilwood. They have multiple piston diameters
available that are interchangeable with the brackets that I have designed. Based on my experience and testing, The one I have chosen is a good balance utilizing the existing rears. If you lock up the rear tires in a panic situation, thats when you will need a new left front fender, as opposed to locking up the fronts.

Braking is based most importantly on tires! The best brakes in the world will not help thirty year old tires.
Solid rotors are terrible for dissapating heat whatsoever, period! The farther away the caliper from the centerline of the wheel, the greater the force.
That is why you see bigger rotors on performance cars, not just because they look cool.
Piston area is important, what is more important is the number pistons acting on an object. The force is applied over a greater area. Just think of it as trying to hold something in place with one big clamp as opposed to two smaller clamps. Larger pads do not improve braking, as most people think, it's the force applied on the pad.
Again, I understand now why the pot guy is upset and challanging my upgrade.
The parts are readily available, I have posted the part #s, so you not stuck to buy brakes from me when it's time for replacement.
I can put all the math formulas on here that I have, and multiple emails directly with Wilwood, but I don't think that is necessary.
I'm in North America, to try to keep things fair, I will not sell or ship to anyone outside of N.A.

Happy motoring,
Louie

[DMCMW Dave]

How do the single piston, single side sliding calipers get the required brake force (used on most of today's daily drivers)?

The pistons in a single sliding caliper are comparatively larger. Compare a DeLorean piston to a piston your our DD Chevy and should be apparent. For double the surface area the diameter of the piston is nowhere near 2X. For example to match the surface area of the two pistons in a DMC caliper the diameter of the piston only increases from 54mm to 76mm. It's a manufacturing cost issue, one-sided sliding calipers are cheaper to make (only one large casting and only one piston). Not to mention that the pistons now are often plastic.

I suspect that modern brake boosters are somewhat stronger (another factor that nobody has mentioned). It's a whole brake system, and various parts of the system can be modified to make a specific result for a specific cost.

[DCUK Martin]

Piston area is important, what is more important is the number pistons acting on an object.

this is simply not true, it is the piston area that counts; be that two, four, six or eight. The greater the area, the greater the force for a given pressure (Pascal's law). Reducing that area up front will bias more force to the rear and make for a firmer pedal. This is what your kit WILL achieve. If you're finding improvement, it's only because what you're replacing was in poor shape - many are.

As it happens I agree the rears can be used more, but doing it by reducing the effort up front isn't good engineering - and that's my background: professional mechanical engineer.

[DCUK Martin]

A single pot slider uses direct and reaction force of the one piston, hence will apply that same force to both sides of the rotor at the same time. Pressure and pot diameter being the same, a single pot slider will provide exactly the same braking effort as a twin pot.

[easy now]

Wilwood Product Number: 120-6811 Price: $134.94

For those of you that feel pot size is the only factor, based on the DEBATE happening here,
I've listed a # for a 1.61" diameter piston, which is fully interchangeable with my brackets.
I do not NOT recommend this whatsoever, unless you are also changing everything else.
Just trying to explain that I have done my homework regarding upgrading the front system.

I already stated that Wilwood offers many piston (pot) diameters. with the 5.25" bolt spacing mount, not just the two that I listed.
Based on my experience, I recommend the 1.18" caliper for FRONT replacement only.

And I am not a professional mechanical engineer.
I am only a certified auto technician working hands on for over 25 years on numerous brake upgrades.
From mild street cars to all out race cars, including 6 second darg cars that need to stop very quickly from 240+ mph.
With a parachute in the equasion, can be a life and death experience if front to rear not in balance.
But, that is totally unrelated to what we are dealing with regarding the front system of a Delorean.

Happy motoring
Louie

[Starglider]

Martin is stating basic engineering facts and AFAIK is generally qualified to design braking systems. 'easy now' may be very experienced at installing them, but given the multiple misunderstandings and misstatements of basic hydraulics I would not be comfortable installing any safety critical item designed by him.

[Dangermouse]

Easy now, have your actually got this set up installed and running on your car? If so, how long for and what has been your experience?

Obviously I am the only one interested in this information........

[DCUK Martin]

I've listed a # for a 1.61" diameter piston, which is fully interchangeable with my brackets.


1.61" (=40.9mm) provides 2627mm^2 per calliper per side.

That's a 15% increase over originals - pretty good. In fact, it's a superb match for an off-the-shelf 50/50 Saab master cylinder to account for the new bias. it'd bring you back to pretty much the same bias as stock! (Original is 68/32 front/rear)



I do not NOT recommend this whatsoever, unless you are also changing everything else.


:banghead:

[easy now]

I want to thank all the guys for their kind and supportive p.m.'s, who asked to keep them anonymous.
I have confirmations for 8 kits so far, If anyone else is interested please feel free to pm me.

I will not respond anymore on this open forum. It's seems nothing positive is coming from it.

If you prefer, send me your phone# and I would be more than happy to call you .

And please remember that I will not offer any kits outside of North America.

Thank you
Louie

[easy now]

25935

[easy now]

Unfortunately,

For me!!!

I have spent the last little while re-testing my theories in the real world! Pretty sad that I actually doubted myself based on pot size, AND the other UK guys that don't have a clue to back up what they posted.

Anyways,,,,, the internet is awesome!!! You don't need any real world experience to be on here. But, you get to have your say!
Funny that the guy that put Wilwood brakes on his car, they locked up. Noshit?

Waste of time for me! But, had to prove to the poor guys that fell for the posts on this forum!
P.S. 17 kits sold so far.

[easy now]

Again,

I have installed ( I guess I didn't mention that I designed, as well !!) numerous brake upgrades for over 25 years, not on a calculator.

My original intent was to help guys with their brakes. And sadly, the I was degraded by a professional mechanical engineer and other people whom obviously know him.

PS Engineering guy once told me that a bumble bee can't fly! Impossible!!!!!
And a Delorean is a commercial vehicle, too bad reading is not rocket science.

Happy motoring
Louie

[DeLorean03]

Hey Louis,

Don't worry, we'll aim to prove your system is fine when they lock my car's wheels up. If that brake system can handle the turbo VR6, I think everyone will be all right ;).

I'll call you later this weekend.

[easy now]

OMG,

Almost forgot.,!!

Hydraulic is mechanical !!!!! LMAO

[jamesrguk]

OMG,

Almost forgot.,!!

Hydraulic is mechanical !!!!! LMAO

In all seriousness as a novice here, how do you actually test/prove that one brake set up is better than another, presumably you have to test them on some roller set up?

Just curious.

J

[easy now]

UK is different! Just buy from pot size.

He is an engineer! Thx for your interest

[jamesrguk]

UK is different! Just buy from pot size.

He is an engineer! Thx for your interest

Sorry, was just asking a genuine question sorry if I've caused offence in some way.

J

[refugeefromcalif]

And a Delorean is a commercial vehicle, too bad reading is not rocket science.

Happy motoring
Louie

I've had a U.S. Class A CDL, (Commercial Drivers License), for almost 25 years. I haven't read anywhere on this forum that ANY DeLorean owners need one too drive their car. No matter what part of the world they live in.
Where did you *Read* that a DeLorean is a commercial vehicle?

I started on Wikipedia Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_vehicle) The way I read it, a DeLorean doesn't qualify.
I even went Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_commercial_vehicle). The Examples list doesn't include DeLoreans.
I then tried *Reading* around the Internet. I couldn't find anything that substantiated what you're saying.?
Please post a link and prove me wrong.

George

[NightFlyer]

Hmmm... dare I do this? Oh, you know it...

:nutkick:

[DCUK Martin]

25935

:deedledee:

I know whatever I say will just be feeding the troll, but I would like to help people not waste their money. This isn't an opinion-based "debate" this is provable, measurable fact. That you aren't capable to wrapping your brain around them isn't my problem, all I can do is post the facts and hopefully give you enough rope to hang yourself.

To answer James' question, this isn't just about brake force and the ease of application (push hard enough and you can lock up any brakes), it's the ability to control that force on the edge of traction.

You seemed intent on the "more is better" with regards to numbers of pots, and referenced many high performance cars with multi-pot callipers. This is because if you start with a space envelope (the wheel) and are designing callipers from scratch, you will always be able to apply more pot area with multiple pots than single ones. Just picking an off-the-shelf 4-pot and claiming it will be an improvement over a twin pot system is entirely missing the point.

Any conventional brake system trades pedal movement for force. Assuming you've kept the servo unchanged and the vacuum applied to it is also constant, the more movement in the pedal, the less pedal force required for the same braking effort. More movement and less force (within reason) gives the driver greater control. On the DeLorean, it also helps to shunt some bias rearwards.

Your system as described will be worse in terms of brake feel and pedal force when compared to a properly functioning original system. Vented rotors will help heating and pad area will provide a small improvement (although in theory friction is independent of area).

I urge anyone considering this kit to go for the larger pot area on the front callipers and fit a saab 50/50 master cylinder. This will provide a noticeable improvement and keep the bias basically original.

[DCUK Martin]

PS Engineering guy once told me that a bumble bee can't fly! Impossible!!!!!

No he didn't. Guess what, you can *read* this on the internet too (so it must be true).

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Bumblebee_argument



Unfortunately (for the pseudoscientists), the laws of physics do not in any way forbid bumblebee flight; there are no papers that deny bumblebee flight, and no scientist has done so ...

[DrJeff]

Again,

I have installed ( I guess I didn't mention that I designed, as well !!) numerous brake upgrades for over 25 years, not on a calculator.

My original intent was to help guys with their brakes. And sadly, the I was degraded by a professional mechanical engineer and other people whom obviously know him.
...


This argument isn't about physics or engineering - if anything we owe a lot to an engineer (John DeLorean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_DeLorean) a graduate in Industrial and Automotive Engineering) in providing us with the DMC-12 platform to mess around with. The engineering of brakes is well understood and the performance is highly predictable based on established and tested engineering science.

What is conflicting here is practical experience with engineering - and the trust that we personally build up in each as we work through our careers. When done right engineering very rarely leads us astray - and even when we do see a bad outcome we can quickly come to understand why and take corrective action. Practical experience is also informative, but it can be subject to trial-and-error and (without objective tests) subject to perceptions of improvement (even when they don't exist). When something goes wrong in practice based mechanics, we try something else. Practice-based mechanics leads us to establish rules-of-thumb that provide some guidance about the behavior of mechanical systems, but seldom provide definitive answers or useful predictions.

The challenge here is that we're dealing with brakes - and that means the potential of someone's DeLorean potentially crashing into a wall, hitting another car, and hurting or fatally injuring drivers, passengers, other motorists, or pedestrians. This is not an area for public road experimentation - even if it is informed by a long career. As an objective observer I would pay a lot of attention to the engineer as regards the design of the system and predictions of its effectiveness. I would also pay a lot of attention to the practitioner as regards the ability to build and maintain the system. Of course someone can be both an engineer and a practitioner.

There are times when we need something done (say the A/C system on our house fixed, or our home computer repaired), if it is not a topic you are completely familiar with (and if the cost of failure is high) then when seeking advice we base our confidence in the solution more on whether or not we trust the person doing the fixing rather than trying to understand what they are going to do. In many cases this works out fine - we don't have to understand the solution and the thing gets fixed - life goes on.

In this particular case, Martin has shared with us the engineering basics of brakes. There are paper and calculators - provided by both performance car companies and engineering schools - that discuss the same topic. Admittedly this is a very complex area of engineering for an amateur to dip into because of the number of variables involved, which leads us to want to 'trust' the adviser. We trust Louie's experience with building brake systems and we trust Martin's understanding of the engineering principles.

If I were interest in getting upgraded brakes (which I'm not, yet) I would first and foremost pay a lot of attention to Martin's guidance on brake engineering. If the engineering is right, then second comes the question - can the brakes be built and maintained sensibly and cost effectively. If you modify your car and take it on to public roads the onus is on you (as the modifier) to ensure that they understood that what you did is going to be safe and effective not just for themselves and their car, but for other motorists and pedestrians.

[Bitsyncmaster]

I don't think anyone would have a catastrophic brake failure using vendor supplied parts for the design. As long as the brake lines and hoses and the bolts holding the caliper on are what was there you should be safe. Now you can test that on any road (no traffic) by locking up the brakes at a few high speeds.

You need an upgrade if you do road racing or a lot of mountain driving. For normal driving you should not be overheating your brakes. If you have a standard, you don't even have problems mountain driving by just down shifting.

[DCUK Martin]

I would suggest that "normal driving" must consider, say, a rapid stop from motorway speeds to a standstill. That's enough to bring standard delorean rotors and regular pads to their temperature limit. (Of course this comment relates to solid versus vented rotors, not the hydraulics).

[TTait]

:deedledee:


I urge anyone considering this kit to go for the larger pot area on the front callipers and fit a saab 50/50 master cylinder.

Perhaps the "Secret 17" want to step out of the shadows and share their thoughts for what they plan on doing with the kit, so we can have some real discussions about how these kits might be used.

I'm not sure who all the "secret" buyers are - but I can guess at 5 of them...

25960

I'm kinda hoping Chief Tyrol will share his thoughts, he's an engineer and a mechanic. And lord knows Tigh needs good brakes now that his depth perception is shot...

Seriously - If anyone is buying the kits, why not step forward and share how you intend to implement it? Louie only wants to bait others and mock science (its worth pointing out that Martin is not just a theorhetical engineer - he's a fine mechanic too) so maybe someone else would like to add something meaningful in favor of this new option.

[Kane]

Seriously - If anyone is buying the kits, why not step forward and share how you intend to implement it?

They all died because their brakes failed.

[Farrar]

I urge anyone considering this kit to go for the larger pot area on the front callipers and fit a saab 50/50 master cylinder. This will provide a noticeable improvement and keep the bias basically original.

Martin,

A quick question for you since you're expert in this regard. My car's brakes are 100% stock excepting pads and fluid changes. My car is an automatic and I don't drive very hard, so although I don't see much need to upgrade, I like the thought of not overheating the system upon a panic stop. Do you think the Saab master cylinder would help in this regard? If so, does the Saab part have a stateside cross-reference?

Thanks!

[Delorean Industries]

Martin,

A quick question for you since you're expert in this regard. My car's brakes are 100% stock excepting pads and fluid changes. My car is an automatic and I don't drive very hard, so although I don't see much need to upgrade, I like the thought of not overheating the system upon a panic stop. Do you think the Saab master cylinder would help in this regard? If so, does the Saab part have a stateside cross-reference?

Thanks!

86 sabb 900 through any parts search.

[Tomcio]

Martin,

A quick question for you since you're expert in this regard. My car's brakes are 100% stock excepting pads and fluid changes. My car is an automatic and I don't drive very hard, so although I don't see much need to upgrade, I like the thought of not overheating the system upon a panic stop. Do you think the Saab master cylinder would help in this regard? If so, does the Saab part have a stateside cross-reference?

Thanks!

I will answer this for Martin. The master cylinder has no effect on heat created at the pads and has no effect on dissipating that heat. For that you would need to upgrade the rotors and calipers.
As for the Saab master cylinder, it is NOT a good cross reference part and should not be used with stock DeLorean system. The brake force distribution is different from what our cars require. It is 50-50 and that causes too much brake force on the rear wheels. The problem this difference creates becomes very apparent when braking in a turn... in a moment everything that was behind is now in front and you're going backwards. Bad idea.
Do not use the Saab master cylinder unless you change the rotors/calipers and they take care of the proper front to rear balance.
The PO of my car has installed that Saab master and this car was very difficult to control under braking in a turn. I'm going back to stock master now.

[Delorean Industries]

What kind of turn were you taking? Are you talking balls to the wall breaking late into a hair pin without enough mechanical grip or power to pull out the other side? I ask because a Delorean has a lot more going against it than just braking issues when attempting to drive on the edge.

[Tomcio]

What kind of turn were you taking? Are you talking balls to the wall breaking late into a hair pin without enough mechanical grip or power to pull out the other side? I ask because a Delorean has a lot more going against it than just braking issues when attempting to drive on the edge.

Well... I do tend to drive a little faster now that I live on this side of the pond but the "being difficult to control" part I was referring to applies to all harder than normal braking situations in a turn. This is actually when it matters the most. That one time when some a**hole pulls in front of you and you hit the brakes hard only to realize that your engine is trying to overtake you. A situation like "braking waaaaay to late into a hairpin turn" might actually be caused not by you (or me) just going nuts but by somebody else putting themselves in front of you. You try to swerve, hit the brakes and.... disaster. Stick with the stock brake distribution and you'll be much safer.
The way I was driving I noticed this problem a lot... when it was raining, when it was snowing (I didn't park my car for the winter) or just when I was braking harder. Didn't have to actually drive on the edge to feel that something isn't right. It was great for showing off when it started snowing but I didn't like it. Saab master cylinder fits and works and looks the same from the outside. Inside it's very different and it just isn't safe on an unmodified system.

[Farrar]

Thanks for the advice, everyone! I'll stick with stock. Easier and cheaper that way. :thumbup2:

[DCUK Martin]

Martin,

A quick question for you since you're expert in this regard. My car's brakes are 100% stock excepting pads and fluid changes. My car is an automatic and I don't drive very hard, so although I don't see much need to upgrade, I like the thought of not overheating the system upon a panic stop. Do you think the Saab master cylinder would help in this regard? If so, does the Saab part have a stateside cross-reference?

Thanks!

Thenks for your vote of confidence in my abilities ;) I would suggest that while I'm trained in the fundamentals of stuff like this, I am not an expert on vehicle dynamics. The system includes weight distribution, tyre choice, tyre width, and in the DeLorean case, differing diameters and speeds!

If we accept (and we should) that the same amount of energy will be shed when stopping from a given speed in a given distance, then by biasing more towards the rear and thus bringing the temperature of the rear and front discs closer together, you are giving yourself more headroom. I think this is a case of treating the symptoms and not the disease however and you'd probably need a pretty robust experiment setup to measure an improvement.

My suggestion (and not just because I sell them - you can buy them elsewhere!), get EBC Redstuff high temperature pads an make sure you change your fluid regularly.

Drilling or grooving the discs is just a way of getting rid of the gasses produced by pads which are already overheating. But they look cool, so people buy them :)

I've run a 50/50 m/c on an otherwise stock setup and had no problems. My 4-pot system biases even more to the rear, but I tested it on a car with Pirelli P600 rear tyres.

[opethmike]

I have red stuff pads on my carpet. Not great while cold, but once warmed up they feel great.

[NightFlyer]

I have red stuff pads on my carpet. Not great while cold, but once warmed up they feel great.

Interesting place for a brake pad to be installed - on the carpet?!?! :tongue_stick:

[Tillsy]

Interesting place for a brake pad to be installed - on the carpet?!?! :tongue_stick:

I'm suspecting some kind of sexual act - he did say they feel great warm?!

[opethmike]

Interesting place for a brake pad to be installed - on the carpet?!?! :tongue_stick:

How else would I step the car when driving around the house?

[Farrar]

My suggestion (and not just because I sell them - you can buy them elsewhere!), get EBC Redstuff high temperature pads an make sure you change your fluid regularly.

Drilling or grooving the discs is just a way of getting rid of the gasses produced by pads which are already overheating. But they look cool, so people buy them :)

I've run a 50/50 m/c on an otherwise stock setup and had no problems. My 4-pot system biases even more to the rear, but I tested it on a car with Pirelli P600 rear tyres.

Thanks, Martin, and happy birthday! :)

[Grover]

What kind of turn were you taking? Are you talking balls to the wall breaking late into a hair pin without enough mechanical grip or power to pull out the other side? I ask because a Delorean has a lot more going against it than just braking issues when attempting to drive on the edge.

Speaking of upgraded front breaks and extreme braking for turns, I can vouch that having a vented rotor setup in front, with the stock calipers spaced, easily handled a 95mph extreme brake into a 90 degree left hand turn on a race track. The car stopped so quick and flawlessly that the oil light came on briefly every time I can to this turn due to all of the oil flying forward in the oil pan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ldtpu39OuiY#t=110

I didn't have time to setup the GoPro better, but you can get the idea here as to the quick braking needed for some of the turns at this course.


While not making it stop any QUICKER, it def. helps when lots of braking is needed. To test the setup when I first got it I did five 60-0 mph emergency stops in a row and the brakes never faded. My brake pads were smoking though after I stopped. :D

[Farrar]

So which is better - breaking or braking? :P

[DMCMW Dave]

So which is better - breaking or braking? :P

breaking bad, braking good.

[opethmike]

breaking bad, braking good.

Breaking bad: good

[Grover]

So which is better - breaking or braking? :P

Haha, I totally typed that and posted without even reading it before hitting reply.

[DeloreanJoshQ]

I work at Jegs, so naturally I'm interested. Provided it is better and safer than the stock setup. Do I need to pm you?

[easy now]

pm sent

[DeLorean03]

It'll be getting interesting soon. I ordered the entire kit including all fittings, mounting hardware, and brake hoses - all the parts should arrive at Eddie's late this week or more likely early next week.

All we are waiting on are the custom caliper mounts, which should be done sometime this week.

If it stops this turbo VR6, I think it'll be a safe and sound setup.

We'll keep everyone in the loop.

[SEO Motorsports]

Hats will be back from the machine shop tomorrow.

[DeLorean03]

I have received word that the brackets for the VR6 brakes will be done this weekend. Here is a sneak peek at what is coming soon. These pictures are not of my car's brackets; they give a hint of the workmanship and craftmanship of what Lou was offering (and still is to those interested).

26442 26443

[easy now]

You will have the brackets next week.

I heard a humour that you killed the stock brakes just testing out the new motor combo? lol,
Doesn't make sense??? You had good pot size from the factory, AND VENTED ROTORS DO NOTHING TO AID IN BRAKING, just dissipating heat, (I think that might be important in the real world)???
LMAO!!!

Anyways, nice build you guys! Enjoy it!!!

Cheers
Lou

[wafflemaster]

Hi guys, I thought I could contribute a bit here. My car is sporting Wilwood Superlite II calipers and rotors with a custom bracket. I'm not sure if the hub is unique or not, as I've never had a stock Delorean :)

They seemed to work pretty good during the 4 miles I put on the car before tearing it apart. The main issue that I just discovered is that the rotors won't clear the stock 14" wheels. I'm thinking of running rear 15" wheels up front too, although I may need to address the hub so that they aren't sticking out of the fenders a la "stance nation."

26487

26486

[DeLorean03]

You will have the brackets next week.

I heard a humour that you killed the stock brakes just testing out the new motor combo? lol,
Doesn't make sense??? You had good pot size from the factory, AND VENTED ROTORS DO NOTHING TO AID IN BRAKING, just dissipating heat, (I think that might be important in the real world)???
LMAO!!!

Anyways, nice build you guys! Enjoy it!!!

Cheers
Lou

Hey Lou :).

Yeah, the stock brakes are pretty wobbly/bad with the new engine setup. If your setup proves to handle the VR6 with zero issues, I think the rest of the community can pursue your contributions with the utmost of confidence.

Can't wait to get the brackets my man! Thank you for helping us; it is looking good so far!

[DCUK Martin]

Hey Lou :).

Yeah, the stock brakes are pretty wobbly/bad with the new engine setup. If your setup proves to handle the VR6 with zero issues, I think the rest of the community can pursue your contributions with the utmost of confidence.



*sigh* Okay, I'll bite

The rest of the community should read this thread thoroughly and take the time to understand the doubts I, and others, have voiced and the maths I've presented.

For example were your stock brakes in good condition? "Wobbly" suggests they definitely weren't! (also, how are your sway bar bushes? Did you change them between testing the two setups?)

Overheating is absolutely a problem on the stock setup if driven hard, I've said that before, not the Lou wants to acknowledge it, and your VR6 delorean could do with something better.

But the only improvement Lou's setup as described will provide is heat dissipation. The braking effort will____be____worse.

[DeLorean03]

*sigh* Okay, I'll bite

The rest of the community should read this thread thoroughly and take the time to understand the doubts I, and others, have voiced and the maths I've presented.

For example were your stock brakes in good condition? "Wobbly" suggests they definitely weren't! (also, how are your sway bar bushes? Did you change them between testing the two setups?)

Overheating is absolutely a problem on the stock setup if driven hard, I've said that before, not the Lou wants to acknowledge it, and your VR6 delorean could do with something better.

But the only improvement Lou's setup as described will provide is heat dissipation. The braking effort will____be____worse.



We'll see soon.

If you end up being right, I'll let you know.

I have no problem saying we are in uncharted territory. I also know Nick Roedl utilizes a Wilwood setup on his LS1 DeLorean.

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?4611-Brake-Caliper-Upgrades-From-Vendors&p=66020&viewfull=1#post66020

26553

Any reason his LS1 gets a free pass and the VR6 doesn't ? Just honestly asking.

[DCUK Martin]

I also know Nick Roedl utilizes a Wilwood setup on his LS1 DeLorean.

Any reason his LS1 gets a free pass and the VR6 doesn't ? Just honestly asking.

Well looking up the two references, for starters they're two different callipers

120-12160 vs 120-6806

Nick's have near as dammit 35mm pots. giving 1930mm^2 per calliper per side. Still a step-down from the originals in terms of pot area (2290mm^2) but still a sight better than Lou's 1271mm^2 per calliper per side (that's 85% versus 56% if you're counting). You then add on the gains from larger & better pads and larger diameter rotors so Nick's braking effort is probably getting close to a properly functioning original setup in terms of braking effort but with the added benefit of vented rotors.

Of course you'd struggle to get a braking setup so bad that you can't stop the car. I reckon the bias Lou's kit will end up with is okay based on my own experience, but why would you want a firmer pedal, and miss out on a golden opportunity to actually improve braking effort?

Please consider going for the 120-6811 callipers as they will give you a benefit of greater pot area up front (better than mine actually!). If you have trouble with the fronts locking up too easily, switch to a 50/50 Saab master.

[DeLorean03]

Well looking up the two references, for starters they're two different callipers

120-12160 vs 120-6806

Nick's have near as dammit 35mm pots. giving 1930mm^2 per calliper per side. Still a step-down from the originals in terms of pot area (2290mm^2) but still a sight better than Lou's 1271mm^2 per calliper per side (that's 85% versus 56% if you're counting). You then add on the gains from larger & better pads and larger diameter rotors so Nick's braking effort is probably getting close to a properly functioning original setup in terms of braking effort but with the added benefit of vented rotors.

Of course you'd struggle to get a braking setup so bad that you can't stop the car. I reckon the bias Lou's kit will end up with is okay based on my own experience, but why would you want a firmer pedal, and miss out on a golden opportunity to actually improve braking effort?

Please consider going for the 120-6811 callipers as they will give you a benefit of greater pot area up front (better than mine actually!). If you have trouble with the fronts locking up too easily, switch to a 50/50 Saab master.

See, that's the kind of feedback I am looking for. This is constructive; this is not a "back and forth shouting match" that this thread became.

Thank you for your input. If it comes to it, I am sure the calipers will be interchangeable with the bracket, and we cant swap the calipers out if it comes to that!

[DCUK Martin]

See, that's the kind of feedback I am looking for. This is constructive; this is not a "back and forth shouting match" that this thread became.


Well on that point, we'll have to agree to disagree... as I read it, there was only one person shouting. I've done my level best to ignore Lou's sarcasm but stuck to presenting the facts in the hope that people take the time to understand. Sorry if I failed in that effort.

[DeLorean03]

Well on that point, we'll have to agree to disagree... as I read it, there was only one person shouting. I've done my level best to ignore Lou's sarcasm but stuck to presenting the facts in the hope that people take the time to understand. Sorry if I failed in that effort.

I meant you and me. I'm not labeling or singling out anyone.

[DCUK Martin]

Wow... er, I had no idea I was arguing with you. Just stating facts.

[DeLorean03]

I was trying to pay you a compliment.

I was saying that you and I were constructively corresponding - not arguing.

I was happy that you brought to me the knowledge I asked for as I was curious about the differences between Nick's setup and mine. You answered with exactly what I wanted, and I was saying that you and I were constructively speaking back and forth rather than the way the thread had been for about the first 10 pages.

Was just trying to be nice, pay you a compliment, give you mutual respect, and agree with you that down the road: we may end up swapping calipers to what you recommended.

._. .... Don't know how else to express that I am just happy we are having a cordial conversation.

[Dangermouse]

You know that arguments are in room 12A?

[DCUK Martin]

LOL! You know what they say, two countries separated by a common language... ;)

[DGI]

subscribing here to see the results on the Turbo car...

also intending to search what options exist for larger wheels to house larger brakes.

[SEO Motorsports]

I just wanted to give an update on this brake setup. First of all, this is a Do At Your Own Risk upgrade and should be performed by a professional.

After getting the brake system installed I can say the pedal feels like stock but these brakes definitely grip better. The main advantage over the stock system is there is no more brake fading or warping of the rotor when braking hard. You can definitely hear the brakes with the drilled and slotted rotors but that is very common. The installation should take no more than 4 hours to complete and test.

During installation I found an small issue that was easily corrected and I have relayed the information back to Lou. The rotor and caliper have to be shifted outward just a little because they will rub the lower control arm on a lowered car. I have now tested the brakes going up and down a steep incline and locking the steering wheel hard in both direction to get the suspension to move around and there are no issues now.

[easy now]

Thanks for the update Eddie, and again, nice work!

And a another thank you to both Jeremiah and Eddie for believing in me on the brake kit.

I had a chance to re- read this thread from the beginning this morning. It really makes me LOL!

I can see why there there been no responses since you posted that the kit works and works well!!!

A few people must be still busy checking formulas and eating humble pie!!

P.S. There is also a left front fender for sale on ebay, just in case.


Enjoy your new set up

Cheers

Lou

[DCUK Martin]

I am curious how old the system being replaced was?

[DMCMW Dave]

I am curious how old the system being replaced was?

33 years. 8)

[DrJeff]

...that the kit works and works well!!!...Lou

I for one am certainly going to bank on a statement like "...these brakes definitely grip better" over any number of engineering calculations or controlled tests. Take my money!!!

[Nicholas R]

33 years. 8)

A very common age for DeLorean parts :wink:

[DeLorean03]

I am curious how old the system being replaced was?

Front calipers were changed in 2004. Same with the rotors.

Pads were from 2011.

Stainless steel brake lines were from 2009.

Car has been driven about 1500 - 3500 miles a year since 2004.

[DCUK Martin]

Well that is certainly interesting and, though I’m sure Lou would claim I’m clutching at straws, the apparently similar braking effort has more to do with improvements in the brake pads and pad area than it does the callipers (which can only be worse - assuming you don't go for the larger pot callipers mentioned earlier). I was lucky enough with #1458 to have original asbestos brake pads and they were by far and away the best performing pads I’ve ever known on stock a DeLorean. There’re an awful lot of crap aftermarket pads available these days. Mintex are the brand of choice here in the UK (assuming you aren’t splashing out on EBC).

I’d love for you to now try the version of the Wilwood callipers with the larger pots and come back and tell us how much of a change that makes.

[easy now]

*sigh* Okay, I'll bite

The rest of the community should read this thread thoroughly and take the time to understand the doubts I, and others, have voiced and the maths I've presented.

For example were your stock brakes in good condition? "Wobbly" suggests they definitely weren't! (also, how are your sway bar bushes? Did you change them between testing the two setups?)

Overheating is absolutely a problem on the stock setup if driven hard, I've said that before, not the Lou wants to acknowledge it, and your VR6 delorean could do with something better.

But the only improvement Lou's setup as described will provide is heat dissipation. The braking effort will____be____worse.

That's weirdest apology I have ever heard!! Give it a rest already, Why can't you accept the fact that I was right? Even after another person, whom I've never met before, and is a 1000 miles away from me, confirmed it as well on here !!!! How about proving this theory ? Real world vs. engineering calculations can differ !!! oh wait, never mind, that was proven again !!

And I will state this again, for the umpteen'th time !!!
My intentions was to help fellow owners interested in IMPROVING their braking system, not to profit from selling kits.

Sincerely,
Lou

[Bitsyncmaster]

You do have a working brake system alternative. Good Job.

I think with a larger piston area you would need less brake pedal force to get the same braking you get now. It's not saying you will get better braking. Now a larger area will also make the brakes work with more travel (lower to the floor). Now is that a good or bad thing?

[DCUK Martin]

Can we agree that it's a bad thing to start out by reducing pedal travel, which is what he has done?

He has also shunted some bias rearward, which I've acknowledged from the start as a good thing - but now he has the rear brakes doing more of the effort, and they aren't vented.

[NightFlyer]

This could get interesting....

:popcorn:

[DeLorean03]

Martin, Lou is making a rear kit too. It will also be going on my car when it's ready.

Does everyone know I won't be unleashing all 250 WHP between traffic lights, right? We're talking an upgraded system that will be way more than awesome at stop-n-go traffic. Sure, there will be times I get up and go - on the interstate - when my brakes do not play a part in forward acceleration.

I'm sorry, I just fail to believe "the sky is falling" with this setup and the way I drive my car. Eddie has tested this system far more rigorously than I probably ever will - it stops the VR6 very comfortably both in straight lines and corners.

I don't know if everyone is assuming I will be treating traffic lights like drag strip Christmas lights or something, but with Eddie giving the approval of the system and having test-driven it, I am confident in what Lou has brought this community. I, for one, am very grateful he took the time to share this information.

I have a 14 hour drive from Melbourne, FL to Dayton, OH within the next two weeks. I'll let everyone know how the brakes handled then.

[DeLorean03]

Now a larger area will also make the brakes work with more travel (lower to the floor). Now is that a good or bad thing?

I guess that depends on what the driver is used to. Personally, I prefer a responsive yet subtle brake pedal. I don't want to tap the pedal with my big toe and have the whole car come to a stop, yet I don't want to take my pedal to the floor to make the car stop. I want something that is very "in the middle" where the brake response is sudden yet smooth. Based on what Eddie has told me, this is a very linear relationship on the VR6. You press the pedal a lil, the car stops a lil. You press it firmly, and the car stops firmly. This is what I prefer - the stopping power matching my effort when applying the brakes.

[NightFlyer]

I was lucky enough with #1458 to have original asbestos brake pads and they were by far and away the best performing pads I’ve ever known on stock a DeLorean.

I can personally confirm this - when I bought my car, it had the stock/OEM asbestos pads on it and they were AWESOME. Although they didn't last very long, about 15,000 miles between two POs and myself (I'm quite certain that had I been the only owner, I could have exceeded 30k miles out them), they also didn't wear or warp the rotors any. Personally, I wouldn't mind changing the pads out relatively frequently in exchange for all the benefits that the stock/OEM pads offered. Too bad the government says that we can't use asbestos brake pads anymore.... :frown:

[NightFlyer]

I guess that depends on what the driver is used to. Personally, I prefer a responsive yet subtle brake pedal. I don't want to tap the pedal with my big toe and have the whole car come to a stop, yet I don't want to take my pedal to the floor to make the car stop. I want something that is very "in the middle" where the brake response is sudden yet smooth. Based on what Eddie has told me, this is a very linear relationship on the VR6. You press the pedal a lil, the car stops a lil. You press it firmly, and the car stops firmly. This is what I prefer - the stopping power matching my effort when applying the brakes.

I personally always 'pump' my brakes, on every car that I've ever owned. A few seconds on the brakes, a few seconds off. By doing this, you rarely if ever get them hot and you rarely if ever experience warped rotors. I once got over 200k miles out of a set of brake pads and rotors. That was the way that they used to teach braking in driver's education to avoid locking the brakes. Now with all the computerized anti-lock BS, they teach you to stand on the brakes. And yet, despite all the computerized BS, whenever I drive someone else's car who stands on the brakes, I can feel that the rotors are noticeably warped (not bad, but noticeable) and know that they typically go through a set of pads every 30k-40k miles. To each their own, but I'll continue to drive to prolong the components of my cars, even if the people behind me don't like the way that I brake.

[nullset]

"It works on my car" is the line a vendor with a particularly bad reputation uses all the time whenever someone has a problem with one of his products.

Related: http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2159/

Anecdotes are not proof of safety.

If a vendor offered an ABS upgrade, and had road tested and safety tested it, and offered a significant warranty, I'd be very interested. I highly doubt that will happen though, because just the insurance to cover them in case someone did crash and blame the new brakes would be prohibitively expensive.

[NightFlyer]

"It works on my car" is the line a vendor with a particularly bad reputation uses all the time whenever someone has a problem with one of his products.

Related: http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2159/

Anecdotes are not proof of safety.

If a vendor offered an ABS upgrade, and had road tested and safety tested it, and offered a significant warranty, I'd be very interested. I highly doubt that will happen though, because just the insurance to cover them in case someone did crash and blame the new brakes would be prohibitively expensive.

The vendor wouldn't be legally responsible unless the product was defective, in which case they'd be indemnified by the manufacturer of the defective component, or they materially misrepresented the product that they were selling to you. Other than that, when you purchase an aftermarket part and put it on your car, you're personally assuming any and all legal liability that arises from the act of doing so. At least that's the way it works under the UCC. Some leftist states might have tougher product liability laws on the books, but that would only effect / be applicable to transactions where the vendor and customer were both located within the jurisdiction of such a state.

[easy now]

You do have a working brake system alternative. Good Job.

I think with a larger piston area you would need less brake pedal force to get the same braking you get now. It's not saying you will get better braking. Now a larger area will also make the brakes work with more travel (lower to the floor). Now is that a good or bad thing?

I need to ask a quick question before I answer this, Would you like my opinion based on real world experience? Or, would you rather have the expert, (that certainly doesn't need an education), answer? I don't want to step on imaginary toes.


from previous pages, I will add my name again

PS. I mean no disrespect to you and your question, just that I'm tired of mostly one person that keeps adding his theories that he learned in school, on here!

thx Lou

[Bitsyncmaster]

I need to ask a quick question before I answer this, Would you like my opinion based on real world experience? Or, would you rather have the expert, (that certainly doesn't need an education), answer? I don't want to step on imaginary toes.


from previous pages, I will add my name again

PS. I mean no disrespect to you and your question, just that I'm tired of mostly one person that keeps adding his theories that he learned in school, on here!

thx Lou

I would like to know if you like the feel when the brakes are applied. In theory, yours should have less pedal movement from light braking to full lock up. Not sure it would be noticed by many people but it may feel better or worse depending on what you like or are use to.

[easy now]

I would like to know if you like the feel when the brakes are applied. In theory, yours should have less pedal movement from light braking to full lock up. Not sure it would be noticed by many people but it may feel better or worse depending on what you like or are use to.

What do you like? That is the question,,,,,, not a big deal, based on calipers that Wilwood offers. I can tell you which one to choose.

Again, start from the beginning of this thread, (sorry that there is a lot of negative know it alls) but just keep scrolling down.

Real cars need a firm pedal feel, imo, it"s entirely up to you. Based on my REAL WORLD experience, I can help you.

PS, I won't ask you to try a bigger pot size to see if it's better, BECAUSE I ALREADY KNOW, from working in the real world.

Thx
Lou

[DeLorean03]

"It works on my car" ...


Ok, I will ask this: am I to infer that comment was directed towards me?

[nullset]

Ok, I will ask this: am I to infer that comment was directed towards me?

It's not directed at anyone in particular. Just pointing out that, if one person has tried a new brake setup and it works for them, that does not
prove its safety nor efficacy. I, for one, much prefer the engineering approach.

[DCUK Martin]

Okay I'm on the computer at home and have some time to write a proper answer rather than tapping away on Tapatalk...

Engineering, at its heart, is the application of scientific principles to the solution of real-world problems. On that basis, all of us engineers are taught the principles that underpin the world around us, and to apply those principles to whatever it is we're working on. (This applies to structural, civil, electronic, automotive, aeronautical, medical, electrical, mechanical and all other qualified engineers alike). This is not a debate of "classroom versus real world" as Lou has been suggesting.

Having said that, Lou also started out with an underlying principle. He started with "4 pots are better than 2". This could be argued is a good rule of thumb, but if you aren't careful, you can miss the point. Lou pointed to Pascal's Law, which is actually about head pressure, or elevation. Not really applicable here, though the Pascal unit is itself applicable, being force over area.

So where does that leave us?

On the one hand we have Lou, stating time and time again how much experience he has, and a system he has "designed" (I use inverted commas because he simply followed his "4 is better than 2" principle above) and we now have the opinion of one owner and one car. As others have said, a sample of one doesn't provide good data, but it does at least suggest that when new, Lou's setup isn't dangerous feels like an improvement - though I'm stull dubious that the system it replaced was as good as it could be - sorry we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

On the other hand, we have good engineering, and I hope I'm successfully championing that cause.

Let's examine what constitutes an improvement for a moment. I'm injecting my opinion here but I don't think it'll get much argument.

1) Heat dissipation. Adding vented rotors.
2) Reducing required pedal force helps the car feel more modern and gives greater control (up to a point - some modern cars are awful for their too-light brake pedal).
3) Adjusting bias - using more of those big fat rear tyres and the fact that most of the car's weight sits on them, and how the big ol' lump of metal sitting behind them affects the moment of rotation when the brakes are applied. All of this combines to make a better pedal feel and make the car more predictable & controllable under braking. This is really important because this makes the DeLorean different from 99% of the rest of the cars on the road, and must change the way the system is optimised.

1) No brainer.
2) A number of factors are at play here: Higher friction brake pads, larger brake pads, brake disc diameter, brake booster size/vacuum, and piston area (both master cylinder and calliper).
3) You can do this with a proportioning valve, but that deliberately restricts pressure at one end, and will always add to the overall pedal force required. You can change the proportioning of the master cylinder. You can disproportiontely increase the disc diameter or the pad size or friction material at one end of the car. You can also carefully select piston sizes front and rear.

When I was developing my system, I worked with all of the above with the exception of the brake booster. I increased rear bias through larger pistons. I increased disc diameter front and rear with a disproportionate increased to the rear, I increased pad friction and pad area front and rear, but kept their size the same. I tested both an original and a 50/50 split master cylinder. I wasn't sure how far I could push the bias to the rear, so I tested it - because theory can only ever take you so far, it must be tested...

IN THE REAL WORLDSeveral thousand miles was then put on the system before offering it for sale and during which time many minor tweaks were made.

Based on the 3 points above, Lou has "improved" the original system by adding vented discs, slightly increasing disc diameter up front, presumably using better & larger pads, and biasing more brake force to the rear. But he has done the last bit by almost halving the piston area up front.. This will give the now vented rotors less braking to do and less heat to dissipate, put more force on the still-solid rears, and firm up the pedal! That the overall braking seems to be unaffected or even a bit improved by virtue of the other factors at play is just plain lucky if you ask me. Three steps forward, two-and-a-half steps back IMO, and certainly not good engineering.

As I see it, it's a crying shame because it could be so much better, and this is the point I want to make to anyone who has fitted or is considering fitting his kit - please re-read my earlier post for more information

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?9166-Front-brake-ugrade-kit&p=139659&viewfull=1#post139659


Please consider going for the 120-6811 callipers as they will give you a benefit of greater pot area up front (better than mine actually!). If you have trouble with the fronts locking up too easily, switch to a 50/50 Saab master.

[Tomcio]

[...]
Based on the 3 points above, Lou has "improved" the original system by adding vented discs, slightly increasing disc diameter up front, presumably using better & larger pads, and biasing more brake force to the rear. But he has done the last bit by almost halving the piston area up front.. This will give the now vented rotors less braking to do and less heat to dissipate, put more force on the still-solid rears, and firm up the pedal! That the overall braking seems to be unaffected or even a bit improved by virtue of the other factors at play is just plain lucky if you ask me. Three steps forward, two-and-a-half steps back IMO, and certainly not good engineering.
[...]

I do not want to get involved in this discussion but looking at the facts I can't help but chime in... Biasing the brakes so much to the rear just plain scares me. Although it might feel like a great improvement to a casual driver because of firm pedal and using more of the rubber at the rear I do agree with Martin. It will all become very apparent when you hit the brakes a little harder than usual when in a turn... even a slight turn. Rear wheels will lock up first and you'll find your rear overtaking the front very quickly. I just hope it's not going to turn ugly...
I have said this before but I'll give you a quick reminder of my story here. PO has installed Saab 50/50 master on my car. It was all fine and felt good when driving normally. After bringing the car to Poland I found out that something isn't right. I drove it a little harder than I used to while in Florida and every time I would brake hard in a turn I felt the rear wanted to lock up sooner than the front. Snow made the problem a lot worst. Switching back to OEM master made a big difference. I can't even imagine having this much bias to the rear. Maybe you should find a large empty lot and try hard braking in a turn to see what happens. Just a thought...

[SEO Motorsports]

I have to agree with both of you on this. It is very easy to lock up the front brakes on these cars. I once had to make a hard stop in my DeLorean because someone pulled out in front of me and the front brakes just locked up and the car just started to slide. I can see giving the rear brakes a little more power would have helped. On the other had I would not want to have my rear end swing out because I can tell you from experience it's not fun to spin down the highway in your DeLorean!! I was tuning the 2JZ car and floored it and I lost the rear end and just started spinning down the road, I didn't know it had rained in that area earlier in the day and the road looked dry to me. I know it's not the same situation but after the rear end of the car got momentum it was all over. So if you loose the rear end while braking with a wet road it's not going to be fun.

[Nicholas R]

Is that why you went with the Quaife LSD in the rear end? Do you think it made a big difference?

[SEO Motorsports]

I went with the LSD in the rear because the car was spinning one tire going down the drag strip. The open diff also allows the axle hubs to sag causing oil to leak out of the seal.

[easy now]

Okay I'm on the computer at home and have some time to write a proper answer rather than tapping away on Tapatalk...

Engineering, at its heart, is the application of scientific principles to the solution of real-world problems. On that basis, all of us engineers are taught the principles that underpin the world around us, and to apply those principles to whatever it is we're working on. (This applies to structural, civil, electronic, automotive, aeronautical, medical, electrical, mechanical and all other qualified engineers alike). This is not a debate of "classroom versus real world" as Lou has been suggesting.

Having said that, Lou also started out with an underlying principle. He started with "4 pots are better than 2". This could be argued is a good rule of thumb, but if you aren't careful, you can miss the point. Lou pointed to Pascal's Law, which is actually about head pressure, or elevation. Not really applicable here, though the Pascal unit is itself applicable, being force over area.

So where does that leave us?

On the one hand we have Lou, stating time and time again how much experience he has, and a system he has "designed" (I use inverted commas because he simply followed his "4 is better than 2" principle above) and we now have the opinion of one owner and one car. As others have said, a sample of one doesn't provide good data, but it does at least suggest that when new, Lou's setup isn't dangerous feels like an improvement - though I'm stull dubious that the system it replaced was as good as it could be - sorry we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

On the other hand, we have good engineering, and I hope I'm successfully championing that cause.

Let's examine what constitutes an improvement for a moment. I'm injecting my opinion here but I don't think it'll get much argument.

1) Heat dissipation. Adding vented rotors.
2) Reducing required pedal force helps the car feel more modern and gives greater control (up to a point - some modern cars are awful for their too-light brake pedal).
3) Adjusting bias - using more of those big fat rear tyres and the fact that most of the car's weight sits on them, and how the big ol' lump of metal sitting behind them affects the moment of rotation when the brakes are applied. All of this combines to make a better pedal feel and make the car more predictable & controllable under braking. This is really important because this makes the DeLorean different from 99% of the rest of the cars on the road, and must change the way the system is optimised.

1) No brainer.
2) A number of factors are at play here: Higher friction brake pads, larger brake pads, brake disc diameter, brake booster size/vacuum, and piston area (both master cylinder and calliper).
3) You can do this with a proportioning valve, but that deliberately restricts pressure at one end, and will always add to the overall pedal force required. You can change the proportioning of the master cylinder. You can disproportiontely increase the disc diameter or the pad size or friction material at one end of the car. You can also carefully select piston sizes front and rear.

When I was developing my system, I worked with all of the above with the exception of the brake booster. I increased rear bias through larger pistons. I increased disc diameter front and rear with a disproportionate increased to the rear, I increased pad friction and pad area front and rear, but kept their size the same. I tested both an original and a 50/50 split master cylinder. I wasn't sure how far I could push the bias to the rear, so I tested it - because theory can only ever take you so far, it must be tested...
Several thousand miles was then put on the system before offering it for sale and during which time many minor tweaks were made.

Based on the 3 points above, Lou has "improved" the original system by adding vented discs, slightly increasing disc diameter up front, presumably using better & larger pads, and biasing more brake force to the rear. But he has done the last bit by almost halving the piston area up front.. This will give the now vented rotors less braking to do and less heat to dissipate, put more force on the still-solid rears, and firm up the pedal! That the overall braking seems to be unaffected or even a bit improved by virtue of the other factors at play is just plain lucky if you ask me. Three steps forward, two-and-a-half steps back IMO, and certainly not good engineering.

As I see it, it's a crying shame because it could be so much better, and this is the point I want to make to anyone who has fitted or is considering fitting his kit - please re-read my earlier post for more information

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?9166-Front-brake-ugrade-kit&p=139659&viewfull=1#post139659

Holy Phuck,,,,,

Give it a rest already !!!! Lucky??? Are you kidding me??? Wow, you are one stubborn person!!!! Maybe you need to have someone else read this thread to you. Obviously you still don't get it.

I guess this is where the term "beating a dead horse" would be used.

P.S. My engineering friends are getting a good laugh reading what you write over here, keep it coming, for their sake!
LMFAO
Lou

[nullset]

Holy Phuck,,,,,

Give it a rest already !!!! Lucky??? Are you kidding me??? Wow, you are one stubborn person!!!! Maybe you need to have someone else read this thread to you. Obviously you still don't get it.

I guess this is where the term "beating a dead horse" would be used.

P.S. My engineering friends are getting a good laugh reading what you write over here, keep it coming, for their sake!
LMFAO
Lou

So who comes off looking calm, professional, and knowledgable? The person providing a detailed analysis of a situation, or the person saying "holy puck give it a rest already"?

Hint: It is the former.

[easy now]

Thanks for your opinion as well !

Please give me your address and I will mail you 2 cents.


Again, I never came on here trying to be "calm or professional" for you.

I designed a brake kit to help out fellow owners, THAT'S ALL!

thanks
Lou

[nullset]

You jury-rigged a brake kit. "Design" implies that you actually have an understanding of the math, physics, and engineering involved in the braking system. You've clearly demonstrated that you do not, and have shown hostility towards those who do.

It's a shame because what you have could be decent, but you certainly are not representing it well.

There are very simple formulas to calculate pedal travel, braking force, heating, and brake balance. I'm sure your engineering friends could help you out. Instead, you choose to just insult anyone who thinks what you've done may not be optimal.

Good luck. I hope you don't hurt anyone.

[opethmike]

Wow, you are one stubborn person!!!! Maybe you need to have someone else read this thread to you. Obviously you still don't get it.

27523

[easy now]

You jury-rigged a brake kit. "Design" implies that you actually have an understanding of the math, physics, and engineering involved in the braking system. You've clearly demonstrated that you do not, and have shown hostility towards those who do.

It's a shame because what you have could be decent, but you certainly are not representing it well.

There are very simple formulas to calculate pedal travel, braking force, heating, and brake balance. I'm sure your engineering friends could help you out. Instead, you choose to just insult anyone who thinks what you've done may not be optimal.

Good luck. I hope you don't hurt anyone.

Wow, I guess ur up to 4 cents now.
I understand formulas alot more than anyone on here! I have actually done it!
The only person hurt on here is the guy that sells his own brake kit for a lot more money. That explains all his negative feedback and responses.
What I have is a lot better than decent, and I am not profiting from it, hence, giving out part #'s.


P.S.
If you not interested, then you wouldn't be responding on here.

[nullset]

Wow, I guess ur up to 4 cents now.
I understand formulas alot more than anyone on here! I have actually done it!
The only person hurt on here is the guy that sells his own brake kit for a lot more money. That explains all his negative feedback and responses.
What I have is a lot better than decent, and I am not profiting from it, hence, giving out part #'s.


P.S.
If you not interested, then you wouldn't be responding on here.

He actually provided some pretty useful feedback to you - namely, which calipers would be better than the ones you're using, and he...gasp, gave part numbers!

Bolting something on to your car does not mean you understand how or why it works, or what the impacts it might have are.

Brakes especially are things that just should not be messed with, without the proper ENGINEERING KNOWLEDGE. To be clear, seat-of-the-pants and "i've actually done it" are not engineering.

Engineering involves using applied math, physics, and science to determine a solution to a problem. Once a solution is determined, it is tested thoroughly, and any defects are corrected. You've simply made choices you think are right and then assumed that anyone who dares to question it is wrong because it totally works for you.

There's no need to be hostile. If what you have is better, then you should be able to back it up with the same formulas that others use to determine the safety and efficacy of their braking systems versus the stock system. So far, you just insult anyone who points out problems.

I don't really care to interact with you anymore, but if someone comes across this thread, I hope that they'll see how you have chosen to approach actual engineers, and it might cause them to steer away from a braking system created by guess work that could in fact be dangerous. (Or it might be perfectly fine, but so far the evidence points to your caliper selection being worse than the stock setup, and you've provided nothing to contradict that).

To anyone reading this, if you want to upgrade the brakes on your car, consider supporting one of the vendors who actually stand behind their products, and will discuss the engineering behind their design choices with you if you have any concerns.

[easy now]

ok good.

I really hope you are finished talking on here.



thx
Lou

[DeLorean03]

So, it seems this thread has "flamed on" again. Here are my thoughts:

1. Lou, we are working on demonstrating that your brake system is a legit setup. Let's let the performance of your kit speak for you rather than harsh back and forth internet arguments. Unfortunately, no one really "wins" these kinds of feuds.

2. What Lou has done is nothing new. It IS new to the DeLorean community. People, entire cars have been built by hotrodders in their local garages for decades. Lou has simply taken the approach of hotrodding and utilized it with the DeLorean.

3. Just because he isn't a vendor does not make him out to be some kind of automotive vagabond here. Many people here were VERY interested in this setup until Martin showed up. Martin asked some genuine questions and kept his cool with all of the answers Lou threw his way. Lou was harshly succinct, while Martin kept the cool image, and most people here wrote Lou off immediately.

I don't know why, but something about Lou's passionate responses intrigued me. Most of the time, I am the kind of guy that goes with the "cool headed" guy, but this time something was different. I saw something in his responses, and I wanted to try his product out. He has this brake setup on his personal DeLorean, and he removed his own custom brake caliper brackets off of his car to help Eddie and I finish the VR6 when the time crunch was starting to kick in. He wants to offer this to the community, but well, his PR sure could use some work - that I won't deny.

I'll admit, Lou retorts are definitely not "kid friendly" here, and that is a shame, because talking to him on the phone is very different than here on the forums.

4. Now, I have personal experience with this brake setup already. On the way home - in that 16 hour drive I did - I was in the right lane of a two lane Northbound through Tennessee. There was an on-ramp lane ending to my right, and some "Sunday drunk" decided he was going to just pull into my lane with no indications including lack of turn signals. Before he did this, I had already seen him on the on-ramp, and I had given my car some solid acceleration so I would be way past him, and he could safely merge into the lane. I did this because there was someone to my left blocking me from moving over for the on-ramp car. When that guy from the on-ramp pulled into my lane, I had to floor those brakes to stop in time as my turbo had spooled and sent me flying. I went from somewhere 70+ to about 30-35 in 2-3 seconds flat.

I'll vouch for his setup so far. Granted, that was one isolated incident in the 3 days I have had my car back, but let me tell you, if you had been in the car with me when that happened, you'd be very interested in this kit now.


It is very clear that this is a "do at your own risk" modification - no denying that. But to dismiss Lou outright is not a wise move. I remember when Eddie first showed up on the .com forums. Nearly everyone thought he was nuts - that making a DeLorean fast couldn't be done, that it was better to just "dream and leave well enough alone", that engine conversions were way too difficult to attempt on a DeLorean.

He shut everyone up; all we kept seeing were designs, pictures, progression threads, and results, results, and more results. He was given his own Turbo thread and even his own lil "Turbo Expert" badge under his name because he was so good and thorough. The DMCTalk.com community recognized him, and he was and is widely regarded as "knowing his shit". Maybe Eddie could give Lou a couple PR pointers ;).


Here's my bottom line - no one is going to get the answer that makes everyone here happy. Lou has something very cool going on; we just need to get some more results out there. So, Lou, give us time to prove to the community that your setup is legit. Take it easy, sit back, and let us help prove your points. Your setup halved the speed my turbo VR6 was putting out, and that was under "stop or wreck" circumstances while my car was accelerating with a turbo pushing it; I think that speaks very well for it - so far.

[SEO Motorsports]

My PR pointers for someone presenting a new alternative...... Don't chase the white rabbit! He will always appear on forums.

[NightFlyer]

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=27538&d=1400698883

Yeah, that's right baby, Jay Underwood - from Roger Corman's 1994 unreleased version - not the crappy big budget Hollywood film.

[DCUK Martin]

I don't know why, but something about Lou's passionate responses intrigued me. Most of the time, I am the kind of guy that goes with the "cool headed" guy, but this time something was different. I saw something in his responses, and I wanted to try his product out.


So this is where I'll start... it reminds me of an old-ish DeLorean related story concerning a gentleman by the name of Carl Tilley. He used a DeLorean in his highly efficient extraction of millions of dollars in private funding from people who didn't have a basic understanding of the laws of physics and were instead taken in by his salesmanship. The DeLorean forums were alight with discussions of his fantastic claims and the potential possibilities if they turned out to be a reality. Some pointed out the fundamental flaws in the claims (being essentially that he'd found a way of creating energy from nothing - aka perpetual motion). Others berated the first group for not being open-minded enough.

The problem is that an open mind can't bend the laws of physics, but neither can someone versed in the laws of physics bend the mind of one who refuses to be educated in the subject.

Anyone who hasn't heard of Carl Tilley may like to spend 5 minutes on Google...



I had to floor those brakes to stop in time as my turbo had spooled and sent me flying. I went from somewhere 70+ to about 30-35 in 2-3 seconds flat.

I'll vouch for his setup so far. Granted, that was one isolated incident in the 3 days I have had my car back, but let me tell you, if you had been in the car with me when that happened, you'd be very interested in this kit now.

As I said many posts back - if you push hard enough, any brakes will stop the car assuming the hydraulics are healthy. I remember anchoring up from over 70 in #1458 on stock brakes much to the relief of my passenger, another delorean owner used to her car being far less responsive. What I wouldn't have liked to try was doing the exact same emergency stop again before the rotors had a time to shed their heat.

There is also no argument that Lou has provided additional cooling, and he has also provided a better bias to the rear - IMO a good thing, but achieved in a bad way.

It's just that better they could so much be.... :yoda:

[NightFlyer]

I don't have a horse in this race, but thought I'd offer my $.02, which is probably actually worth less than that.

From an outsider looking in, it appears that Lou simply designed the bracketry by which Wilwood, or any other compatible caliper, can be bolted up to the car, thus allowing a person to run vented discs if they so desire. Ultimately, it's up to those who patronize the product he's offering to decide what calipers to run with his brackets, as there are many that will fit without issue.

The known example of Jeremiah (DeLorean03) chose to go with the caliper that Lou recommended, which he has found to be more than acceptable for his expectations and desires, thus he's a happy customer, and rightfully so. Just as there are many users of Martin's brake package that are happy customers of his. As the ultimate goal is customer satisfaction, both products have achieved their goal and are successful in serving their customers well.

Thus, I personally see no issue with either setup, just as I see no issue with the factory setup for how a majority of users actually drive their cars. IMHO, the only reason that the factory setup is even an issue is because drivers world wide have acclimated themselves and their driving styles to ABS brakes, which dictate that you consistently stay on the peddle during the period that you wish to slow down, as opposed to pumping the brakes, and are driving their DeLoreans in a fashion similar to that of a vehicle equipped with ABS brakes. I personally always pump my brakes, regardless of the type of braking system that the car actually has, and I attribute that to how I consistently achieve over 120k miles out of set of pads/rotors.

[easy now]

So this is where I'll start... it reminds me of an old-ish DeLorean related story concerning a gentleman by the name of Carl Tilley. He used a DeLorean in his highly efficient extraction of millions of dollars in private funding from people who didn't have a basic understanding of the laws of physics and were instead taken in by his salesmanship. The DeLorean forums were alight with discussions of his fantastic claims and the potential possibilities if they turned out to be a reality. Some pointed out the fundamental flaws in the claims (being essentially that he'd found a way of creating energy from nothing - aka perpetual motion). Others berated the first group for not being open-minded enough.

The problem is that an open mind can't bend the laws of physics, but neither can someone versed in the laws of physics bend the mind of one who refuses to be educated in the subject.

Anyone who hasn't heard of Carl Tilley may like to spend 5 minutes on Google...



As I said many posts back - if you push hard enough, any brakes will stop the car assuming the hydraulics are healthy. I remember anchoring up from over 70 in #1458 on stock brakes much to the relief of my passenger, another delorean owner used to her car being far less responsive. What I wouldn't have liked to try was doing the exact same emergency stop again before the rotors had a time to shed their heat.

There is also no argument that Lou has provided additional cooling, and he has also provided a better bias to the rear - IMO a good thing, but achieved in a bad way.

It's just that better they could so much be.... :yoda:

Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now you are comparing to a con man?? Really, very nice of you.

You really are a piece of work!!!!

And again, your theories mean jack shit, because you are relating them to your master cylinder with 50/50 bias, not the master that the Delorean uses.
You are stuck on pot size, because that is what you have in your notebook from school, and you keep claiming I am stuck on 4 is better than 2.
Well, there are actually 4 factors that determine braking outcome, I am a surprised that you don't know that.

And again, putting calipers on that you recommend results in a pedal that goes to floor, because of the bore diameter, you would not know this, because it happens in the real world, not on paper.

Please stop bashing me and what I have done. It's getting tiresome, and YOU are the one misleading forum members, not me!

Do yourself a favor and move on, don't bother responding, you don't know, because you have not physically done what I have, PERIOD!

[easy now]

27539

[NightFlyer]

:popcorn:

[opethmike]

This is easily one of funniest/most entertaining threads I've ever read on this forum.

[easy now]

This thread was meant to help forum guys. I'm glad it's entertaining now. Too bad it took this long.

[DCUK Martin]

Now you are comparing to a con man??



Hardly - it's pretty obvious Carl Tilley knew exactly what he was doing.

(Sorry Lou, but you walked headfirst into that one!)

My comment wasn't even about you - it was about the way salesmanship can often (and surprisingly easily) trump cold hard fact backed up by stacks of evidence. POOF - Gone!




And again, your theories mean jack shit, because you are relating them to your master cylinder with 50/50 bias, not the master that the Delorean uses.



I suggested it as a better choice for your setup when fitted with the callipers with larger pistons if there was a problem with the bias thereafter because the resulting bias would be more or less exactly as stock.




... because you have not physically done what I have, PERIOD!

That is at the same time both very true and very false.

[NightFlyer]

My comment wasn't even about you - it was about the way salesmanship can often (and surprisingly easily) trump cold hard fact backed up by stacks of evidence. POOF - Gone!

POOF - Gone!

There are very few hard objective constants in science.

[DCUK Martin]

Not here.

[DCUK Martin]

By which I meant this is a car forum and my point was encompassed in what I said above, I won't engage on that subject here. And if I weren't on tapatalk, I'd edit the above post!

[DeLorean03]

We will not be discussing religion/politics/hot-button issues anywhere on this forum - period.

Guys, come on now. We all know that the words "POOF - Gone!" and "POOF - Gone!" will start the silly slope.

Mentions of said topics deleted. I even did it to my own post :P.

[Tomcio]

I'm surprised that so many people see this exchange as entertaining. First of all it shows the quality of the people involved. Science and cold hard numbers against poor sarcasm and bad language. Hardly entertaining.
I would say that it is each owners decision about what they do with their own car but in case of the brake system you might endanger other road users if you make a mistake. It's not always that you brake hard going in a straight line. Try doing the same in a corner and IF the balance is wrong you might kill yourself and some other motorist that happens to be there.

I don't see Martin ever "bashing" anyone in any of his posts but what I do see is scientific approach to the problem. I didn't see any proof or scientific data in return. Sarcasm and bad language doesn't proof a theory and just indicates the actual reasoning behind the solution.

To me it is just sad...

Putting creationism and evolution on equal grounds is a perfect representation of the total sum of reasoning in this exchange - science against "it is so because I say so and you know jack $*i7"...

I give up

[NightFlyer]

I'm surprised that so many people see this exchange as entertaining. First of all it shows the quality of the people involved. Science and cold hard numbers against poor sarcasm and bad language. Hardly entertaining.
I would say that it is each owners decision about what they do with their own car but in case of the brake system you might endanger other road users if you make a mistake. It's not always that you brake hard going in a straight line. Try doing the same in a corner and IF the balance is wrong you might kill yourself and some other motorist that happens to be there.

I don't see Martin ever "bashing" anyone in any of his posts but what I do see is scientific approach to the problem. I didn't see any proof or scientific data in return. Sarcasm and bad language doesn't proof a theory and just indicates the actual reasoning behind the solution.

To me it is just sad...

Putting creationism and evolution on equal grounds is a perfect representation of the total sum of reasoning in this exchange - science against "it is so because I say so and you know jack $*i7"...

I give up

Out of respect to DeLorean03, I won't make the mistake of being baited by the second to last sentence.

What I will say is that IMHO, it's far more dangerous to run cheap Asian made tires than it is to run Lou's brake kit, and yet, that hasn't stopped Primewell and other cheap Asian brands from selling millions of tires worldwide...

[Tillsy]

I've been giving easy now the benefit of doubt - he can't accept constructive feedback or criticism and instead interprets DCUK Martin's comments as a personal attack. He then gets himself so worked up over this that he lashes out instead of having an intelligent factual discussion - things like "you really are a piece of work", "your theories mean jack shit", "you've never done what I have, PERIOD", "my expert friends are having a good laugh", etc are the types of responses we parents expect from an eight year old, not an intelligent discussion or debate with an adult.

But then yesterday he specifically digs up a two year old thread (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?3450-WTB-Toby-Tabs&p=143980#post143980) to do nothing more than make yet another stab at DCUK Martin, this time on a completely unrelated topic.

It is hard to see his behaviour now as anything but an aggressive troll... which is really sad if he has legitimate intentions here.

[Tomcio]

Out of respect to DeLorean03, I won't make the mistake of being baited by the second to last sentence.

What I will say is that IMHO, it's far more dangerous to run cheap Asian made tires than it is to run Lou's brake kit, and yet, that hasn't stopped Primewell and other cheap Asian brands from selling millions of tires worldwide...

Please don't take that statement as a bait. I'm just trying to show the similarity in both - one being science and other being belief. This is what I'm seeing in this exchange. One side is based on science while other on belief. I'm not saying that one is right while the other is wrong. Just stating a fact. Two different ways to approach this matter and those ways do not intersect.

I agree that those cheap tires are poor quality but at the same time I didn't say that Lou's brake kit is bad in any way. Please notice that big "IF" in my previous post. The problem is that we don't have any explanation from Lou, no calculation and no proof of concept. With no proof comes a big IF. Lou has reacted with hostility and sarcasm to every question from Martin. Why? Why not give a straight answer so everyone is happy and there's no room for "what if". Again, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the kit. I'm just saying that there is a breakdown in communication.
Since there is lack of information I asked for a test to see how the brakes perform in a turn. Stopping power in a straight line is just a part of the total. See if they are safe and if they are, GREAT! It's just good to know and right now we have no way of knowing.

[DeLorean03]

So, we all have our opinions on this. Bottom line, it's sad that the thread fell apart like this.

To save face and keep this from snowballing anymore, I am going to lock it. If anyone is interested in or has questions regarding this brake setup, let me know. I have it; I'm happy with it. I'll tell you all you want to know about it in PMs. We're done here.

:lockdance: