DeLorean UK - Upgraded brakes "big brakes"?

[DMC3157]

Anyone have personal experience with this brake system from the UK? Looking to invest $$$$ in this system but would feel way more comfortable if I knew that others have been successful with it...

25607

[jackb]

I asked the same question about those brakes a while back, not much direct experience here with upgraded brakes.
http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?3424-Brake-upgrade-options
I ended up going with rebuilding the stock calipers. Turns out I had a stuck piston (possibly pistons) and a full rebuild of the stock calipers made a big difference.

[Nicholas R]

Cliff Schmucker installed these on the 2JZ car. They are pretty noticeable as far as improved breaking. Still too expensive for me, but they definitely increase your breaking capabilities. You actually have to swap out the master cylinder along with the calipers and discs.

The one thing cliff and I were both a little wary about was that the e-brake connects to the rear calipers, via a lever that still utilizes hydraulic power. The question we had was, what if you loose brake fluid or the system gets a leak? Do you loose all brakes including the e-brake? Fluid loss or damage to the lines is typically one of the most common brake failures.

I don't know of anyone else that has installed them.

[dmcjohn]

The one thing cliff and I were both a little wary about was that the e-brake connects to the rear calipers, via a lever that still utilizes hydraulic power. The question we had was, what if you loose brake fluid or the system gets a leak? Do you loose all brakes including the e-brake? Fluid loss or damage to the lines is typically one of the most common brake failures.

.

That is exactly the reason I never went for this kit when it was first introduced. Apart from the safety aspect, it's illegal, at least in Ireland (not sure about the USA) to have an emergency brake depending on hydraulic fluid.

[BABIS]

while I have no direct experience with the whole kit Martin sells I can assure you that just the front hispec calipers with vented rotors make an incredible improvement from stock, and I guess upgrading the rears would be extremely positive.
the best features of the hispec calipers are that they are bolt-on on the delorean hubs and even if they are 4 pots the oil displacement is about the same of the original calipers so you will have a familiar feeling on the brake pedal..
imho vented rotors are a must-have on this car, at least if you have to drive in european roads or something similar..
on vented rotors the greenstuff pads are a good choice (while the reds perform better with solid rotors) and I prefer the 50/50 pump over the original.
the best thing of Martin's kit is that you get all the parts you need for a massive brake upgrade at the same time (the other thing you need is brake oil!)..
I wouldn't be concerned about hydraulic e-brakes since the original ones are all but adequate and you can always leave your car in gear for safeness..

[Starglider]

The one thing cliff and I were both a little wary about was that the e-brake connects to the rear calipers, via a lever that still utilizes hydraulic power. The question we had was, what if you loose brake fluid or the system gets a leak? Do you loose all brakes including the e-brake? Fluid loss or damage to the lines is typically one of the most common brake failures.

The handbrake mechanism has a check valve, so it will work as long as there is any fluid left at the caliper end and once engaged won't be affected by the rest of the system leaking. The major problem with the hydralic e-brake is that if you engage it while the discs are hot, it will lose grip as the discs cool down (e.g. you can't park on a hill after spirited driving).

[DCUK Martin]

Thanks for the comments everyone.

The hydraulic handbrake does indeed lock off the fluid in the calliper - it's cable operated otherwise. With fluid loss, you'd have a bigger problem long before the handbrake failed!

I supply a replacement master cylinder mainly because I want to be sure it's in good order - so many need replacing. I also designed the system to use a 50/50 unit.

Overall piston area is increased, as is rotor diameter so you will get a lighter pedal for the same braking. Everything is as big as it could be and still fit stock wheels.

The larger pad area and vented rotors are all improvements too.

There are about 10 systems out there with 4 sold in the past 6 months.

[DeLorean03]

Martin,

Are you rotors cross referenced, or are they something custom designed? Great looking system - just makes me nervous if my components go bad that I would have no choice but to order from you (wait time overseas plus ridiculous shipping charges as of lately).

I loathe bottlenecks.

[easy now]

Judging by his responses to the other thread instead of this one, the answer is obvious.

[easy now]

And hydraulic emergency brakes are in fact illegal on this side of the world for street vehicles.

[Nicholas R]

And hydraulic emergency brakes are in fact illegal on this side of the world for street vehicles.

Interesting; I did not know that. Though in all the brakes I've ever done, I've never seen a hydraulic ebrake aside from these so it makes sense.

[DCUK Martin]

Martin,

Are you rotors cross referenced, or are they something custom designed? Great looking system - just makes me nervous if my components go bad that I would have no choice but to order from you (wait time overseas plus ridiculous shipping charges as of lately).


Hi, thanks for your question. They're off-the-shelf standard discs (at least this side of the pond). Happy to provide drawings of both to cross reference. They both have to be re-bored and re-drilled but this is simple for any machine shop if you can source them domestically. However Hispec Motorsport have the details on file so you do not need to rely on getting them through me.


Judging by his responses to the other thread instead of this one, the answer is obvious.

Please elaborate on this comment?


And hydraulic emergency brakes are in fact illegal on this side of the world for street vehicles.

I cannot find any reference to the specific law in question but please enlighten us?

Let me be clear:

1) The callipers made by HiSpec are not what is most often referred to as a hydraulic hand brake (= parking brake = e-brake). This is because it is actuated by conventional cable all the way to the calliper. The action of the hand brake function relies on a calliper full of fluid - and if it isn't full of fluid, then you have bigger problems than a poorly functioning handbrake! Unless the calliper itself is the source of a leak, the handbrake will continue to function. Even if one calliper is leaking, the opposite side will still work (and with considerably more force than an original).

2) Calling something "illegal" is a strong term. For example in Europe it is mandatory for manufacturers to include a catalytic converter in the exhaust system of any vehicle with a petrol/gasoline engine. It is also mandatory for the car to pass an annual emissions test which is impossible to pass without a catalyst. It is not however explicitly illegal to remove the catalyst inbetween the annual tests. I'm citing this as an example, I know in this case, it is explicitly illegal in many US states to tamper with the emissions controls.

In the UK, the annual test for the car's road-worthiness includes a test of the handbrake function - in fact it's the most common cause of failure of a DeLorean in the test - and the HiSpec calliper flies through this test because they are interested solely in its function, and that it is cable operated.

As I understand it, a working handbrake is not mandatory in most states in the US, even on 5-speed cars. I don't think I've ever had a DeLorean come off the boat with a working handbrake.

...but I'd be happy to hear feedback from anyone who knows precise details on the subject.

[easy now]

Parking brake - commercial vehicle

25.8 (1) A parking brake, while set in the fully applied position and not held by foot or hand force or by hydraulic or air pressure, shall hold the commercial vehicle stationary against the engine at a light throttle setting for a few seconds both in reverse gear and in low forward gear.

(2) A parking brake shall fully release when the release control is operated.

Being a licensed mechanic, as I have stated before, I am reading what my safety standards book reads, and a quick google came up with this.
I am finished with this pissing contest with you. My original intent was to help out fellow owners, but all you have done is tell me how wrong I am
which is both un true and offensive. I never once said anything bad about you or your kit that you offer, it is pricey, and up the individual if he wants to go that route.

Sincerely
Louie

[DCUK Martin]

Is the DeLorean a commercial vehicle?

[Kane]

Is the DeLorean a commercial vehicle?

I saw it in a commercial, so that must count, right? :)

[DeLorean03]

Hi, thanks for your question. They're off-the-shelf standard discs (at least this side of the pond). Happy to provide drawings of both to cross reference. They both have to be re-bored and re-drilled but this is simple for any machine shop if you can source them domestically. However Hispec Motorsport have the details on file so you do not need to rely on getting them through me.





Are they off the shelf of a vehicle that is strictly available in Europe or is available in the States as well?? PM me if you like.

[DCUK Martin]

I guess there's no requirement in the US to have a non- hydraulic handbrake in a non-commercial vehicle (aka car)... ;) still interested if anyone has definitive info on this as I get asked a lot.

The rotors (discs) in my system were sourced by Hispec originally when they did their initial work. They are from european cars, both available on ebay UK cheaper than delorean discs.

Afaik the stock rotors sold in the US as still sourced in the UK fwiw...

[Nicholas R]

I don't know Martin. I'm doing some quick google searches and I'm seeing a lot of people talking about how it is illegal for your ebrake/handbrake to be hydraulic, if it is your only means for emergency stopping. I haven't come up with anything official, but Louie did have at least one source. A lot of the drifting sites here have conversations how you must still run a full mechanical ebrake if you want a hydraulic ebrake and want to remain legal.

Before you throw some more shade based on speculation, you may want to be the one to do some serious research about the legality of what your selling. I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong, because I don't have the answer. But I think your customers do deserve the right answer from you.

[DMCMW Dave]

Afaik the stock rotors sold in the US as still sourced in the UK fwiw...

No, not ours anyway.

[Mark D]

I don't know Martin. I'm doing some quick google searches and I'm seeing a lot of people talking about how it is illegal for your ebrake/handbrake to be hydraulic, if it is your only means for emergency stopping. I haven't come up with anything official, but Louie did have at least one source. A lot of the drifting sites here have conversations how you must still run a full mechanical ebrake if you want a hydraulic ebrake and want to remain legal.

Before you throw some more shade based on speculation, you may want to be the one to do some serious research about the legality of what your selling. I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong, because I don't have the answer. But I think your customers do deserve the right answer from you.

FMVSS 135 Section 5.2 states:

Parking brake system. Each vehicle shall be equipped with a parking brake system of a friction type with solely mechanical means to retain engagement.


http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2012-title49-vol6/xml/CFR-2012-title49-vol6-sec571-135.xml

[AussieDMC]

For heaven's sake surely it is up to the individual to determine if this braking setup is legal or illegal in their own country. It is not up to Martin to know what the legal requirments are in each country of the world. If I wanted to buy them it is up to me to see if they are legal in my country (Australia). On his website Martin makes no claims as to whether these brakes are legal or illegal in the US, Canada or wherever, so that is for you to work out.
Nice looking kit BTW. I spoke to an owner here who has them and he loves them.

[Starglider]

Parking brake system. Each vehicle shall be equipped with a parking brake system of a friction type with solely mechanical means to retain engagement.

Electric parking brakes with no physical cable are legal in the US and UK; BMW have been selling cars with electric e-brakes since 2001. As such I believe the legal requirement is that once engaged, the brake will stay engaged without electrical or engine power. That is the case here as the isolation valve makes pressure in the brake lines irrelevant, although it may fail the 'retain engagement' part due to the hot disc contraction issue.

[DCUK Martin]

A couple of things here:

These brakes are perfectly legal to sell in the UK, which is what I am doing regardless of the whereabouts of the purchaser (a cat bypass pipe is a similar case in point).

While the hispec callipers use the calliper's fluid they are otherwise cable actuated, unlike all the systems reported elsewhere as not being street legal.

Hydraulic -is- mechanical.

is that regulation something manufacturers must adhere to? Or kit car builders? Or an annual test for every vehicle?

I'm not trying to split hairs, just get to the bottom of whether someone could actually get in trouble for running the hispec callipers in the US..

[Mark D]

Electric parking brakes with no physical cable are legal in the US and UK; BMW have been selling cars with electric e-brakes since 2001. As such I believe the legal requirement is that once engaged, the brake will stay engaged without electrical or engine power. That is the case here as the isolation valve makes pressure in the brake lines irrelevant, although it may fail the 'retain engagement' part due to the hot disc contraction issue.

FMVSS says nothing about requiring a cable, only that it the vehicle requires "solely mechanical means to retain engagement" They key word here is "retain"

Electrically actuated parking brakes are allowed because, as you correctly stated, "once engaged, the brake will stay engaged without electrical or engine power" The means of engagement is not the issue, it is how that engagement is retained.

Once the parking brake is engaged it has to be retained mechanically... Hydraulic fluid pressure (or air pressure) is not classified as a mechanical means.


A couple of things here:
These brakes are perfectly legal to sell in the UK, which is what I am doing regardless of the whereabouts of the purchaser (a cat bypass pipe is a similar case in point)...

Not disagreeing with you about legality in the UK. I'm only addressing the legality of hydraulic parking brakes in the US.



While the hispec callipers use the calliper's fluid they are otherwise cable actuated, unlike all the systems reported elsewhere as not being street legal.


Again, the means of actuation is not the relevant issue, means of retainment is. If the parking brake uses hydraulic pressure in the caliper pistons to hold the parking brake in place then it is illegal in the US.



Hydraulic -is- mechanical.

Sorry, but this is not true according to the law.



is that regulation something manufacturers must adhere to? Or kit car builders? Or an annual test for every vehicle?
I'm not trying to split hairs, just get to the bottom of whether someone could actually get in trouble for running the hispec callipers in the US..

FMVSS = Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards.

"The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has a legislative mandate under Title 49 of the United States Code, Chapter 301, Motor Vehicle Safety, to issue Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS) and Regulations to which manufacturers of motor vehicle and equipment items must conform and certify compliance

These Federal safety standards are regulations written in terms of minimum safety performance requirements for motor vehicles or items of motor vehicle equipment. These requirements are specified in such a manner "that the public is protected against unreasonable risk of crashes occurring as a result of the design, construction, or performance of motor vehicles and is also protected against unreasonable risk of death or injury in the event crashes do occur."

Manufacturers of new vehicles must build cars to the minimum safety standards specified by FMVSS and any "equipment items" must also conform.

There is no federal requirement for vehicle inspection on an annual basis, but most states require an inspection before you can register your car. Any vehicle with a parking break using hydraulic pressure to retain engagement would fail. There are a lot of states that don't require inspections so it wouldn't be hard for most people to get away with it, but it's still not legal.

It's to your advantage to know the laws in the US if you are planning on selling people brake kits here... The likelihood of a lawsuit is probably very low, and the fact that you're in the UK would probaby make it even more difficult for someone to take any legal action.... but if it were me I'd want to at least know the law and what I was getting myself into.

[Dangermouse]

FMVSS 135 Section 5.2 states:

Parking brake system. Each vehicle shall be equipped with a parking brake system of a friction type with solely mechanical means to retain engagement.


http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2012-title49-vol6/xml/CFR-2012-title49-vol6-sec571-135.xml

I am not a lawyer, nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night (a reference that Martin will not get), nor do I have a horse in this race, but I do find the discussion interesting.

Following Mark's link above shows the relevant Code, but the application of the code should be noted:

S3. Application. This standard applies to passenger cars manufactured on or after September 1, 2000 and to multi-purpose passenger vehicles, trucks and buses with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 3,500 kilograms (7,716 pounds) or less, manufactured on or after September 1, 2002. In addition, at the option of the manufacturer, passenger cars manufactured before September 1, 2000, and multi-purpose passenger vehicles, trucks and buses with a GVWR of 3,500 kilograms (7,716 pounds) or less, manufactured before September 1, 2002, may meet the requirements of this standard instead of Federal Motor Vehicle No. 105, Hydraulic Brake Systems.

Which to me reads that a DeLorean would be exempted from this code??

Based on wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_inspection_in_the_United_States), 17 US states require a "safety inspection" either annually or bi-annually. I'm sure brake systems would fall under that heading, but whether they would check the design of parking brake mechanism is hard to tell.

[Mark D]

I am not a lawyer, nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night (a reference that Martin will not get), nor do I have a horse in this race, but I do find the discussion interesting.

Following Mark's link above shows the relevant Code, but the application of the code should be noted:

S3. Application. This standard applies to passenger cars manufactured on or after September 1, 2000 and to multi-purpose passenger vehicles, trucks and buses with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 3,500 kilograms (7,716 pounds) or less, manufactured on or after September 1, 2002. In addition, at the option of the manufacturer, passenger cars manufactured before September 1, 2000, and multi-purpose passenger vehicles, trucks and buses with a GVWR of 3,500 kilograms (7,716 pounds) or less, manufactured before September 1, 2002, may meet the requirements of this standard instead of Federal Motor Vehicle No. 105, Hydraulic Brake Systems.

Which to me reads that a DeLorean would be exempted from this code??

Based on wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_inspection_in_the_United_States), 17 US states require a "safety inspection" either annually or bi-annually. I'm sure brake systems would fall under that heading, but whether they would check the design of parking brake mechanism is hard to tell.


The effectivity date of the standard adds to the confusion slightly so I didn't get into it in my original post. Prior to Sept 1 2000 cars were either subject to meet FMVSS 135 or FMVSS 105. As of Sept 1 2002 the only option became to meet 135. The two specs were split from one another to separate passenger cars from vehicles with higher GVWR's such as commercial vehicles. Both specs have undergone many revisions to follow industry changes and new technology. The basic wording of the parking brake requirement is unchanged from what it was in the late 70's/early 80's. If you want to read the complete spec with all the ammendments you can here:

http://archive.org/stream/federalmotorvehi5152unit/federalmotorvehi5152unit_djvu.txt
http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/import/fmvss/

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=25731&d=1393520967

The 1981 wording of the FMVSS spec reads:

S5.2 Parking brake system. Each vehicle [with
a GVWR of 10,000 lbs. or less and each school
bus with a GVWR greater than 10,000 lbs.] shall
be manufactured with a parking brake system of
a friction type with a solely mechanical means to
retain engagement, which shall under the condi-
tions of S6, when tested according to the proce-
dures specified in S7, meet the requirements
specified in S5.2.1, S5.2.2, or S5.2.3 as appro-
priate, with the system engaged —

[DCUK Martin]

Thanks for the input guys. Again though this is law a manufacturer must follow, there is nothing explicit for the owner or car (in the form of inspection).

I also take issue with "hydraulic is not mechanical". Unless this is explicitly redefined elsewhere, the dictionary definition must surely apply?

I will always ensure my customers are fully informed and will use this thread for that information.

From an entirely non-legal viewpoint, it's a little daft pitching the HiSpec callipers against originals given the awful track record of the original design :)

[Dangermouse]

General question then - in states where there is an annual "safety inspection" do the inspectors require that the car still meets the FMVSS code that was in force at the time of manufacture, or do they have a separate "Inspection Code" of some sort? (Georgia has no safety inspection so I can't ask anyone here)

[Bitsyncmaster]

http://www.mdstateinspectionstation.com/what%27s_inspected_on_your_car.htm

Looks like they only test for it working here. They require a safety inspection when you buy a used car. My D was tagged with historic plates so it did not need the inspection.

[Nicholas R]

FMVSS 135 Section 5.2 states:

Parking brake system. Each vehicle shall be equipped with a parking brake system of a friction type with solely mechanical means to retain engagement.


http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2012-title49-vol6/xml/CFR-2012-title49-vol6-sec571-135.xml

Great info! Thanks for finding this Mark!

[NightFlyer]

I am a lawyer but I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Martin is 100% correct. The FMVSS applies solely to manufacturers of cars and car parts. It does not apply to vehicle owners. The only equipment on a vehicle that operates within the borders of the 50 US states that is currently federally unlawful for a vehicle owner to modify is emissions equipment (but even then, the EPA tends not to police/inspect individual owners except in select areas within certain states, and even then, they contract with the respective state governments to enforce such standards, which usually only consists of a visual/OBD inspection of equipment and/or exhaust gas analysis). Otherwise, as far as federal law is concerned, a vehicle owner is free to modify their car however they please. Whether or not certain modifications would meet a particular state's regulations / statutory schemes (such as bumper height, exterior illumination, braking systems, etc) would have to be checked against the regulations/standards of the state that one is registering the vehicle in for regular road usage, as the codes are all slightly different, although there is a fair amount of uniformity among the states.

Any modification made by the vehicle owner, the owner is implicitly accepting full and sole liability for such modification, as would any subsequent purchaser of the modified vehicle upon the purchase of such a vehicle. As long as Martin is accurately advertising the specifications and operability of his brake package, there would be no liability traceable back to him unless a part that he sold was defective (does not operate according to the advertised specifications) when it left his possession, and even then, he would be protected via the indemnity of the manufacturer of such product for the product defect claim.

Hope that clarifies things for everyone. :smile:

[Dangermouse]

Thanks Josh.

[DCUK Martin]

Yes, thanks very much Josh and everyone else pitching in. Even Louie :biggrin:

I've now changed the wording on my site to reflect the new input, and to give a bit more information.