Enviro 12. Has anyone used it as an option to R12?

[refugeefromcalif]

My A/C isn't blowing the cold air it used to. Options for my R-12 system are limited here in Alabama. (Like everywhere else). I've searched all over town, (with Lots of help from people I know around here).

It's already getting warm around here so I need to find Something to charge my system.
I found a local place that can sell me Enviro 12/ES12 freon. I did a google search and it's supposed to be be compatible with R12. The only Odd thing that comes up is, I have to convert the fittings to 134's.?

Anyone ever heard of this refrigerant? Or have added it to an R12 system? Is it worth buying?

George

[David T]

My A/C isn't blowing the cold air it used to. Options for my R-12 system are limited here in Alabama. (Like everywhere else). I've searched all over town, (with Lots of help from people I know around here).

It's already getting warm around here so I need to find Something to charge my system.
I found a local place that can sell me Enviro 12/ES12 freon. I did a google search and it's supposed to be be compatible with R12. The only Odd thing that comes up is, I have to convert the fittings to 134's.?

Anyone ever heard of this refrigerant? Or have added it to an R12 system? Is it worth buying?

George

There are all kinds of refrigerants out there with "environmentally nice sounding" names. You really have to read the spec sheet to see what is in there. You can buy R-12 on E-bay. Just "topping off" is not the best idea. You should find and fix the leaks. The leaks just get bigger and you have to top off more often with more "juice".

[nullset]

I would find an MSDS for it and see what's in it.

Many R-12 replacements are just propane/butane mixtures, which can be very dangerous (and illegal in the US)

[NightFlyer]

Enviro12 is an R-12 substitute, or what's known/marketed as a 12a product. 12a products are hydrocarbon blends - usually propane/butane/ethane/etc. While others are paranoid about running a 12a product, I personally am not. R134a is actually equally as flammable as a 12a product, not to mention that r134a is a known carcinogen - something that 12a products are not. Oh, and R134a is still bad for the ozone, just not as bad as r12, while 12a products pose no risks to the ozone. Several owners are successful running 12a products. Jeremiah (DeLorean03) was running a 12a product in his car - in fact, I think he was specifically using enviro12, and reported great results. When I recharge my system in a month or less, I'll be using a 12a product as well.

Yes, technically, it's unlawful to use a 12a product in automotive applications, however, there is no enforcement mechanism. If it was as dangerous/bad as others make it out to be, then don't you think that the government would restrict access to the product as well, as they've done with r12, to keep us safe from ourselves? But they didn't. In fact, 12a products are perfectly legal to purchase and possess - you're just not supposed to use them in automotive applications. FYI, 12a products were officially outlawed for automotive use at exactly the same time that DuPont's patent for r12 expired and DuPont patented r134a was approved by the EPA for automotive use, thus leaving it as the sole current/new standard in the automotive world by OEMs - convenient, right? The real reason behind 12a's illegality in automotive applications is simply governmental crony capitalism - nothing more.

The reason that you were told to use r134a fittings with a 12a product is because they are packaged in cans/kits that use r134a tappers and hoses. In reality, you don't really need to change your fittings - you just need to either obtain or build an r134a tapper to r12 hose to use in charging your existing system/fittings with the 12a product.

Keep in mind that 12a has a lower pressurization point (liquid to gas) than r12, thus you'll use less refrigerant to charge your system vs r12. This also means that your compressor will cycle less frequently vs r12.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HC-12a

I hope this helps. If not, let me know and I can answer further questions that you might have.

[Flicky]

I second the action to find the leak (with indicator/sniffer) and then fill with some old R12 ebay can for like $50. Environmentalists may freak out, but remember that back in the day just about every electronics and computer manufacture had HUGE pools of R12 venting into the air 24/7 for years. R12 used to be so damn cheep that we used it instead of CO2 tanks for our BB guns. I'm not saying move new cars back to it, just saying that it is the best choice for you today in your car as it is. Plenty of 'natural' things (asbestos/lead/poop) are bad for life too.

Until a big part dies in the system I see no reason to convert. Once one thing does die, then replace it all and be happy for a long time.

[nullset]

I don't see any reason to use something illegal, when R134A is still reasonably priced and actually a legal option.

If doing a conversion, you need to take it to a professional shop and have the system emptied and the leaks repaired, regardless of what you put it in.

If your hoses are original, definitely replace them before you do anything else.

I strongly advise against hydrocarbons in automotive AC, but in the end, you can do what you want. It is not a proper fix, and is not approved by the EPA or the DOT.

R-12 or R-134A are the only things you can legally put in your AC system.

[David T]

I don't see any reason to use something illegal, when R134A is still reasonably priced and actually a legal option.

If doing a conversion, you need to take it to a professional shop and have the system emptied and the leaks repaired, regardless of what you put it in.

If your hoses are original, definitely replace them before you do anything else.

I strongly advise against hydrocarbons in automotive AC, but in the end, you can do what you want. It is not a proper fix, and is not approved by the EPA or the DOT.

R-12 or R-134A are the only things you can legally put in your AC system.

R-12 was touted as one of the new "safety" refrigerants. It was safe compared to Ammonia! However R-12 was invented in Germany as precursor to create Phosgene gas. R-12 exposed to a flame will produce it and it is highly toxic. It was used during WWI. So pick you poison, R-12 or Propane. BTW in the right concentration and circumstances Propane won't burn, it will explode (which is just burning but at a much higher rate). Another point to consider, -134 is about 10% less efficient than R-12 when substituted into a system engineered for -12. You won't notice it except on really hot days when you need every bit of cooling capacity.

[delornut]

R-12 was touted as one of the new "safety" refrigerants. It was safe compared to Ammonia! However R-12 was invented in Germany as precursor to create Phosgene gas. R-12 exposed to a flame will produce it and it is highly toxic. It was used during WWI. So pick you poison, R-12 or Propane. BTW in the right concentration and circumstances Propane won't burn, it will explode (which is just burning but at a much higher rate). Another point to consider, -134 is about 10% less efficient than R-12 when substituted into a system engineered for -12. You won't notice it except on really hot days when you need every bit of cooling capacity.

When the day comes to have an AC shop service the system they will tell you they won't touch it with anything but 134 or R12. Anything else will contaminate their equipment. If you lie to them and it contaminates the shop's AC equipment you would be liable.

Bruce Benson

[Jimmycxc]

Going to be recharging my system with R-12 shortly as well. I easily picked some up from Ebay. I found a licensed mechanic in Florida to put it in for me...that was the tough part.

What about the 4oz bottles of R12 and oil? Do we need to add any oil to our AC? Is there a way to tell if it needs more?

[refugeefromcalif]

Thanks all for the replies!

I Do plan on checking for leaks and I'd prefer staying with Real R-12.
I don't know when the A/C was last serviced. DMCF can't give me the service records for their work before I bought it from them.



Going to be recharging my system with R-12 shortly as well. I easily picked some up from Ebay.

How Easy was it? What hoops did you have to jump through to buy it?

George

[John U]

I would find an MSDS for it and see what's in it.

Many R-12 replacements are just propane/butane mixtures, which can be very dangerous (and illegal in the US)
How is two ounces of propane in your AC anywhere near as dangerous as a taxi or a bus powered by propane? What about a propane fridge in an RV?

[NightFlyer]

How Easy was it? What hoops did you have to jump through to buy it?

George

In order to legally purchase real r12, you must have an EPA section 609 certification. To obtain such a certification, you must pass an online open book exam and pay a fee:

http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/609/technicians/609certs.html

Of course, you may find a seller who's willing to sell to you without verification of such a certification, but you do so at the risk of potential criminal and civil penalties if caught.

Not to mention that r12 is significantly more expensive. IMHO, it's just not worth the expense and hassle of buying it legally, or the expense and potential penalties of buying it illegally. A 12a product is cheap, will work nearly just as well as r12 (and better than r134a in r12 system), and can be used in an r12 system without changing the type of oil in the system. That said, I'd still recommend a complete backflush of the system before switching to a 12a product, even though it can be added to existing r12 without issue.

[David T]

In order to legally purchase real r12, you must have an EPA section 609 certification. To obtain such a certification, you must pass an online open book exam and pay a fee:

http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/609/technicians/609certs.html

Of course, you may find a seller who's willing to sell to you without verification of such a certification, but you do so at the risk of potential criminal and civil penalties if caught.

Not to mention that r12 is significantly more expensive. IMHO, it's just not worth the expense and hassle of buying it legally, or the expense and potential penalties of buying it illegally. A 12a product is cheap, will work nearly just as well as r12 (and better than r134a in r12 system), and can be used in an r12 system without changing the type of oil in the system. That said, I'd still recommend a complete backflush of the system before switching to a 12a product, even though it can be added to existing r12 without issue.

I have never heard of anyone being prosecuted for buying a small quantity of R-12 without a license. It is possible but highly unlikely. There is a way to measure how much oil is in the compressor. Check out N:10:03 :04 in your Workshop Manual and go to the Sunden site to see how to make the dipstick.

[Jimmycxc]

I have never heard of anyone being prosecuted for buying a small quantity of R-12 without a license. It is possible but highly unlikely. There is a way to measure how much oil is in the compressor. Check out N:10:03 :04 in your Workshop Manual and go to the Sunden site to see how to make the dipstick.


Thanks Dave!

As for buying it on ebay, the sellers state you either must present proof of the certification, or sign a waiver that you are purchasing the r-12 to have someone who is licensed, work with it. I'm sure everyone on ebay are not EPA Law experts, but I didn't have a problem...at least not yet.

[NightFlyer]

It's interesting how some people freak out about using a 12a product, citing it's illegality, but then don't have any issues with illegally obtaining R12 without the required certification.

As I'm not big on either of these laws (the 12a ban or the section 609 certification), I personally say do whatever you want and are able to do. If you can find someone to sell you R12 without the EPA 609 certification (the waivers technically aren't legal, and I'm personally unaware of any precedent setting case law pertaining to such), I say go for it if that's what you want. IMHO, R12 simply isn't worth the extra expense over the cost of a 12a product - especially if your system is leaky. Not to mention the benefits of running a 12a product - lower pressurization point = less refrigerant needed and less cycling of the compressor.

[Bitsyncmaster]

I have a 30 lb tank of R22a I bought to top off my home heat pump. I had second thoughts and bought a 30 lb R22 tank. I am 608 certified so getting the R22 is legal. I think the R22a is 100% propane. I would guess its the same as R12a.

[refugeefromcalif]

I went to the Local place today and I bought 2 cans of Enviro-12. (I'll let it sit for now).
Also 1 oz. of dye, (For leak detection), and a set of gauges for A/C systems. (I'm going to have too take a Crash course in A/C)...

As far as eBay goes, I've got 6 cans of R-12 on the way here by the middle of the week. :meditation:

George

[nullset]

I went to the Local place today and I bought 2 cans of Enviro-12. (I'll let it sit for now).
Also 1 oz. of dye, (For leak detection), and a set of gauges for A/C systems. (I'm going to have too take a Crash course in A/C)...

As far as eBay goes, I've got 6 cans of R-12 on the way here by the middle of the week. :meditation:

George

You will need to vacuum the existing R-12 out of the system before you do anything else (if it's not empty).

You will also need a VERY good vacuum pump and a new accumulator. You should always replace the accumulator when you open the system.

[nullset]

I have the 609 certification. It's $20 to take the test and get a card. I bought my R-12 on craigslist, along with an evac and recovery machine.

[NightFlyer]

I went to the Local place today and I bought 2 cans of Enviro-12. (I'll let it sit for now).
Also 1 oz. of dye, (For leak detection), and a set of gauges for A/C systems. (I'm going to have too take a Crash course in A/C)...

As far as eBay goes, I've got 6 cans of R-12 on the way here by the middle of the week. :meditation:

George

If you're interested in back-flushing your system at all, which I highly recommend doing, this is a good video on how to do it (ignore the stuff about converting to R134a):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fyy1Q7Wh57Q

[Henrik]

FWIW, I bought a 30 lb tank of R134a in 2006 from here http://www.lenzdist.com/product-info.php?pid439.html and paid $69 + $25 in freight and no sales tax. A small investment "for life".