First No Start of the New Year. Help Wanted....

[JIMJAM]

Summer is near which means the Delorean forums are about to get really busy so let me get the stainless steel ball rolling.

Car has been running flawlessly last 3 months or so. Got a good going over back then and spent a week with a well known character who knows these beast. This Friday Drove it 60 miles,stop and go running errands on a warm 90 degree day.Stopped and filled the tank up and drove approx 30 miles. Got home,ate and approx 2 hours later went to leave again.
Big backfire and now no start. Turns over strong. Battery is fully charged.
Checks- Fuel pump primes when key is turned "audible". Jumped the relay and it runs "audibly louder." I use Daves's relay but swapped it with a green spare. No start.
Checked the inertia thinga majiggie.
Did the wiggle and jiggle,looked at relays,fuses.....
Did the plug swap trick and it starts but I quickly shut it down before it floods. 2-3 seconds. I can smell the fuel.
Pulled a plug and its getting a spark.
Jumped the rpm relay,pulled a injector,pressed the p plate its spraying a fine mist.
Pulled up the fuel pump "one of Johns" and the filter looks normal.No breakage....
So it appears to be getting fuel and spark.How much I have no clue and I am not very good at making measurments.
Ok so now what? Thanks ahead of time. Jim in SC

[SS Spoiler]

Do you have a turbo? My single turbo backfired, no start. Bruce Benson and I dinked around for an hour before Bruce noticed a turbo hose connection had popped off.
Stuck it on and varrooom.

Paul Cerny #2691
Kalispell, MT

[JIMJAM]

No turbo.
BtW-How are you guys connecting the 2 wires onto that one top right ign resistor? Mine still has the stock black connector that has that brass piece that joins the 2 female connectors. I was just jiggling it and it broke so now I need to get both wires on to that top right male spade on the resistor?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_renuAd3ciIo/SYUiNKuYvmI/AAAAAAAAAYA/WZXM6IBrYO0/s320/Blog_Pic_21b.jpg Not mine but that top right which he has blue.

[NightFlyer]

If it backfired, then it's definitely getting fuel and is hot, but perhaps isn't getting spark - did you confirm spark with a visual arch when you pulled one of the plugs?

If it started with the plug swap trick, then doesn't that mean that the CSV isn't firing when plugged in normally? CSV gets its instructions from the thermotime switch, although rarely is that the problem. Are you saying that it starts normally doing this and then actually runs until you turn the car off?

Weird given the two completely differing situations that you've described.

I'd first confirm that everything ignition related is hooked up - that you didn't knock anything loose.

Then check the rest pressure on the fuel system, as the fuel pump check value could be faulty, bad accumulator, or bad PPR o-ring - or even a possible combination of these things.

Best of luck!

[JIMJAM]

I have ran it without the csv for 5 years with no issue. Its unplugged. I plugged the grey one into it and it fires right up but I quickly shut it down. I dunno if it would keep running since its very rough and I can smell gas and did not want to flood it.

yes,I took a sp out and had someone turn the ign and I saw a good blue arc.

I have no test equip but tapping the p plate it feels like its holding pressure at least 3 hours.

[NightFlyer]

Check the vacuum connections on the CPR/WUR - sounds like the CPR/WUR isn't allowing enough fuel when cold for a start up.

Idle air motor could also be stuck / gummed up. Pull it and clean it extensively with carb cleaner. Dave M. also likes to add a few drops of 3-in-1 oil after cleaning it before re-installing.

Beyond that, I'm stumped...

Best of luck!

[Bitsyncmaster]

See if it starts cold..

Since it starts with the CSV "plug swapped" I would say your fuel distributor (FD) is not working correctly. First thing I would check is your O-ring in the PPR (primary pressure regulator). If not that then you would need to do a fuel pressure check to help troubleshoot.

[JIMJAM]

Hey good to hear from you again Dave. Remember back ,what 5+ years ago I was chewing up o rings in a matter of minutes and it took 2 Fuel dist before I got lucky with this one. IIRC I still have some of those viton o rings. Well its been a looooong since I messed with the fd and took a o ring out so I need to do a search and refresh my memory. I am notorious for making things worse.

All of this figures. I NEVER do anything special with the car but this Thrs I am hitting the big 5 0 and had plans with the car. Typical Delorean snafu right when you need it to work.

[NightFlyer]

Hey good to hear from you again Dave. Remember back ,what 5+ years ago I was chewing up o rings in a matter of minutes and it took 2 Fuel dist before I got lucky with this one. IIRC I still have some of those viton o rings. Well its been a looooong since I messed with the fd and took a o ring out so I need to do a search and refresh my memory. I am notorious for making things worse.

All of this figures. I NEVER do anything special with the car but this Thrs I am hitting the big 5 0 and had plans with the car. Typical Delorean snafu right when you need it to work.

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?1446-How-to-replace-hot-start-o-rings-in-fuel-pressure-plunger-on-Fuel-Distributer

[JIMJAM]

:D

[JIMJAM]

Well I cannot get the PP regulator nut off and I do not think its ever coming off. I sprayed it with pb blaster but that sucker was not moving. Then 1 slip and now a corner is gone. Cannot get a socket on it because of the clearance. With a 16 box wrench you can only get at it at 2 angles and one just got rounded off. Now I see where a special t put a black something on the threads. so its soft metal,rounded off and got something on the threads. Good grief.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Well I cannot get the PP regulator nut off and I do not think its ever coming off. I sprayed it with pb blaster but that sucker was not moving. Then 1 slip and now a corner is gone. Cannot get a socket on it because of the clearance. With a 16 box wrench you can only get at it at 2 angles and one just got rounded off. Now I see where a special t put a black something on the threads. so its soft metal,rounded off and got something on the threads. Good grief.

Did you pull the air cleaner off?

[JIMJAM]

Yes.
Remember back in the day when I went through hell and back with fuel issues during my car's initial teething issues? Not 1,Not 2 but 3 bad FD from a vendor. The current one is #3 which I have never had to fool with. Still we have no clue if the o ring or fd is even the issue but I need to leave that nut alone before it is totally ruined. I understand there are ways and special sockets but this is a very sensitive, fragile nut.
All I can say is I had a dam good grip on it with a 16mm and I do not think it slipped but the metal corner on the nut gave way.
I am still thinking its something simple though Dave. Me and mountain man had this car purring and no issues until I parked it. O ring? Plunger stuck.
Also did you see my earlier post where I want to know how to best connect those 2 wires to the top right resistor.The stock connector that joined the wires broke when I jiggled it.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Yes the nut is soft metal. It does not have to be very tight at all but someone cranked it on. If you can get a good grip with a tool, a rap with a hammer on the tool should break it free.

[JIMJAM]

After a long line of curse words some being original, I got the nut off and imo the o ring looks to be a viton and in great shape.
Next.....

[Bitsyncmaster]

After a long line of curse words some being original, I got the nut off and imo the o ring looks to be a viton and in great shape.
Next.....

Does it start cold?

[JIMJAM]

Not sure what you mean.
No troubles in 3-6 months....Then a few days ago I did a lot of stop and go errands and the temps that day hit 90. Filled up,drove another 30 miles home.2-3 hrs later the car would not start. And has not started since....

If you mean does the car like the cold. YES..... Never had the csv hooked up and the car starts first tuen even on the coldest of days.Always has loved winter and HATES summer. I have always had hotstart issues and msc gremlins during the summer.... Hope none of this leads to the accululator cuz I have been reading up on it and it sounds like a PITA.....I am on back surgery 3 and doubt I could do it no matter how motivated.

[SS Spoiler]

This is what DMCTALK is about, people helping people. Good show guys!

[NightFlyer]

Not sure what you mean.
No troubles in 3-6 months....Then a few days ago I did a lot of stop and go errands and the temps that day hit 90. Filled up,drove another 30 miles home.2-3 hrs later the car would not start. And has not started since....

If you mean does the car like the cold. YES..... Never had the csv hooked up and the car starts first tuen even on the coldest of days.Always has loved winter and HATES summer. I have always had hotstart issues and msc gremlins during the summer.... Hope none of this leads to the accululator cuz I have been reading up on it and it sounds like a PITA.....I am on back surgery 3 and doubt I could do it no matter how motivated.

Cold starts = engine coolant temperature below 95F (35C)
Hot starts = engine coolant temperature 95F or above (35C or above)

Accumulator would affect hot starts, but cold starts - not so much.

You described a backfire condition earlier, as well as an injection check, which leads me to believe that you're getting fuel, but perhaps not enough or too much. And you've confirmed that you're getting spark, so ignition shouldn't be the problem either. A plug swap starts the car, suggesting that without the CSV firing, you're not getting quite enough fuel to start the car when the engine is cold, but enough to flood out the engine and cause a backfire situation after several unsuccessful crankings.

I'm still suspecting a CPR/WUR issue - check the vacuum hoses and check the electrical connections. Also check the fuel lines running in/out of the CPR/WUR for blockage on both ends - at the CPR/WUR and the FD. Also not a bad idea to pull the idle air motor and clean it if you haven't, as it could be gummed up / stuck, and not allowing sufficient air into the mixture.

[JIMJAM]

Thanks.Yeah its been mid 60s all day so thats the eng temp.
You did a good job describing whats going on so I will do just that Monday.
Also, I posted earlier in the thread but I need some advice. While checking the resistor connectors the top right one that has 2 wires attached to it came apart. It had the stock black plastic cover with the brass piece that went slipped into the 2nd wire so both could connect to the resistor. I need to either make a connector or buy another.Any ideas?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_renuAd3ciIo/SYUiNKuYvmI/AAAAAAAAAYA/WZXM6IBrYO0/s320/Blog_Pic_21b.jpg Not mine but its the top right "blue" I need to make up.

[Ron]

Did you straighten out those two wires? (I emailed you a pic yesterday.)

[JIMJAM]

Hey,I never got a email. Figured you were busy this weekend.

[NightFlyer]

Thanks.Yeah its been mid 60s all day so thats the eng temp.
You did a good job describing whats going on so I will do just that Monday.
Also, I posted earlier in the thread but I need some advice. While checking the resistor connectors the top right one that has 2 wires attached to it came apart. It had the stock black plastic cover with the brass piece that went slipped into the 2nd wire so both could connect to the resistor. I need to either make a connector or buy another.Any ideas?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_renuAd3ciIo/SYUiNKuYvmI/AAAAAAAAAYA/WZXM6IBrYO0/s320/Blog_Pic_21b.jpg Not mine but its the top right "blue" I need to make up.

Not understanding exactly what broke, but those are all just standard crimp on female spade connectors. If you're saying that the little brass 'y' adapter broke, I'd personally just eliminate it by simply putting both wires into the single spade connector, as opposed to having two hang off that resistor end - a blue should give you enough room, but if you find the the fit tight, you could up it to a yellow. The black plastic cover thing is of no consequence - in fact, I kind of hate those things...

[Ron]

Never to busy for you bro! ;-)
I suspect the reason it is not starting is that the ground supply wire came off of the block somehow. Then, when you fixed that, you knocked the ground wire off of the engine bay light switch and put it on the ballast resistor prong that sticks straight out, a dead short. That is how you let the smoke out of it. It probably didn't hurt anything else, but it could.
Check your email again and look at the pic. You have my number ;-)

EDIT: Fix this and then get back on the fuel. Post up here..a lot of good ideas w/o the BS so far ;)

[NightFlyer]

Never to busy for you bro! ;-)
I suspect the reason it is not starting is that the ground supply wire came off of the block somehow. Then, when you fixed that, you knocked the ground wire off of the engine bay light switch and put it on the ballast resistor prong that sticks straight out, a dead short. That is how you let the smoke out of it. It probably didn't hurt anything else, but it could.
Check your email again and look at the pic. You have my number ;-)

EDIT: Fix this and then get back on the fuel. Post up here..a lot of good ideas w/o the BS so far ;)

Ron is working with some additional info than was originally described in the thread, so go with his suggestions! :thumbup:

No BS - this is a DeLorean forum isn't it? Something strange is going on here! :biggrin:

[JIMJAM]

Na Na I am entitled to one really stupid screw up on the D. This was done AFTER the car would not start. However I have no shame so here is what I did. I was checking the resistor connectors and saw a pair of black wires that went to a female connector covered by that stock black plastic cover. It was right below the resistor as if it had fallen off so I hooked it to the resistor.Well guess what? It dont go there:rolleyes1: Burned up the black wires and did some damage to the 1st inch or so of the yellow and blue connected to the resistor that goes to the relay mounted on the firewall behind the drivers head.


So now we know the rest of the story. The 2 wires that connect to the top right of the resistor I broke earlier today when again testing connections. Again done AFTER the car would not start.

[Ron]

Ron is working with some additional info than was originally described in the thread, so go with his suggestions! :thumbup:

No BS - this is a DeLorean forum isn't it? Something strange is going on here! :biggrin:
Hell, I didn't know we were trying to get back to square one... lol
He needs to hook up the resistor and see if he still has spark to get there (...and make sure there is smoke left in the relay).:devil:


Jim => :angry0: "Now that's some Bulllll Shit!"

[NightFlyer]

Na Na I am entitled to one really stupid screw up on the D. This was done AFTER the car would not start. However I have no shame so here is what I did. I was checking the resistor connectors and saw a pair of black wires that went to a female connector covered by that stock black plastic cover. It was right below the resistor as if it had fallen off so I hooked it to the resistor.Well guess what? It dont go there:rolleyes1: Burned up the black wires and did some damage to the 1st inch or so of the yellow and blue connected to the resistor that goes to the relay mounted on the firewall behind the drivers head.


So now we know the rest of the story. The 2 wires that connect to the top right of the resistor I broke earlier today when again testing connections. Again done AFTER the car would not start.

Gotcha! If that's the worst mistake that you commit, then you're doing pretty good IMHO :thumbup:

I'm guessing that you confirmed spark at the plugs while cranking after this incident occurred, yes? If not, then you really need to first and foremost, as Ron stated above :smile:

[JIMJAM]

Just a update for future generations and those helping me.
I redid the connectors to the resistor. Pulled a plug and imo the spark looked weak. I am no spark expert but it was not one of those "oh crap turn it off" blue crackling sparks. More like a static discharge,yellowish clear spark.

ok on to the next step... Sprayed a 1-2 second squirt of starter fluid and the engine immediatly started and ran 3 seconds and then shut off.
And as a reminder. I have pulled a injector earlier and it was spraying a nice mist so the engine appears to be getting fuel.

So thats where I am. Got some spark,engine started using fluid.....

[Bitsyncmaster]

Have you tried stepping on the gas when you start it. Just asking because I never have to do that.

[NightFlyer]

Just a update for future generations and those helping me.
I redid the connectors to the resistor. Pulled a plug and imo the spark looked weak. I am no spark expert but it was not one of those "oh crap turn it off" blue crackling sparks. More like a static discharge,yellowish clear spark.

ok on to the next step... Sprayed a 1-2 second squirt of starter fluid and the engine immediatly started and ran 3 seconds and then shut off.
And as a reminder. I have pulled a injector earlier and it was spraying a nice mist so the engine appears to be getting fuel.

So thats where I am. Got some spark,engine started using fluid.....

If it starts even a little from cold, then you must be getting sufficient spark, or at least initially anyway.

Once the starter fluid burned out, the engine shut down, suggesting that you're not getting enough fuel upon start-up for a cold start. You need to fully check the CPR/WUR. I'm wondering if your wiring boo-boo didn't fry the resistor in the CPR/WUR... But we'll never know until you check it out :biggrin:

[JIMJAM]

Some more info.
I have NEVER ran with the csv hooked up.Never needed it.
I just tried to start it with the csv hooked up and working the pedal got it to huff and puff like it wanted to stay running. Did this maybe 4 times but then it would only try to start maybe for 2-3 seconds. By the 4th time it was not starting at all.
I unhooked the csv it does not even try to start as if it was getting no gas.

Nightflyer- ' I'm wondering if your wiring boo-boo didn't fry the resistor in the CPR/WUR." That happened days after the no start issue began.

[NightFlyer]

Some more info.
I have NEVER ran with the csv hooked up.Never needed it.
I just tried to start it with the csv hooked up and working the pedal got it to huff and puff like it wanted to stay running. Did this maybe 4 times but then it would only try to start maybe for 2-3 seconds. By the 4th time it was not starting at all.
I unhooked the csv it does not even try to start as if it was getting no gas.

Nightflyer- ' I'm wondering if your wiring boo-boo didn't fry the resistor in the CPR/WUR." That happened days after the no start issue began.

A huff and puff suggests lack of fuel.

Check fuses 1 and 7.

Hose(s) could be kinked or fuel filter could be clogged, choking the supply of fuel off. Check the soft lines at the fuel pump and accumulator and make sure that nothing has kinked. Confirm the flow rate of fuel at the FD - if it's anemic, and assuming that the pump is good, then you'll need to change the fuel filter.

[JIMJAM]

Thanks Nightflyer for your help. I have already checked the fuses. We are having some much needed rain and t storms hopefully that will wash away this coating of pollen we have here in SC. As soon as I can I will get back to the car. I did take a bright shop light and looked for any lose hoses,vac line etc but found nothing.

[Bitsyncmaster]

If the WUR heater burned open it would not make a difference in the starting. It would only affect a warmup would take a long time (would be rich).

Now if the WUR heater shorted that could kill the Lambda power. That may affect starting. Not sure what a dead FV would do to the mixture.

By any chance has your idle motor tube pulled out of the intake (tube of agony). A very large vacuum leak would cause hard to start.

You may need to get the control pressure measured. Maybe the WUR has really crashed.

[JIMJAM]

Well as you may know I have enough spares to build another car and pretty sure I have a new WUR if needed.
I have heard a sucking noise once in a while but figured it might be cause I have the air filter off. I will go back out there later and do another look and tug,jiggle and wiggle.

[NightFlyer]

Well as you may know I have enough spares to build another car and pretty sure I have a new WUR if needed.
I have heard a sucking noise once in a while but figured it might be cause I have the air filter off. I will go back out there later and do another look and tug,jiggle and wiggle.

Auxiliary air pipe (aka pipe of agony) is #21 in the diagram below - it feeds air from the idle motor into the mixture unit, bypassing the throttle plates. If dislodged, it would represent a huge vacuum leak - too much air, not enough fuel.

http://store.delorean.com/images/Category/large/2-5-0.gif

Here's a few pics for reference:

http://www.specialtauto.com/delorean-parts/images/ait-flow-meter-idle-tube.jpg

http://www.specialtauto.com/delorean-parts/images/air-flow-meter-tube-1.jpg

Easy way to test for a dislodge/leak is to spay carb cleaner in the vicinity of the tube while cranking and see if you get any changes in response from the engine.

[JIMJAM]

I have a second set of hands and was able to keep the engine running by popping/pressing the air plate with my fingers.

[NightFlyer]

I have a second set of hands and was able to keep the engine running by popping/pressing the plate with my fingers.

Still check for a vacuum leak around the aux air tube (pipe of agony). If that's fine, then you're not getting enough fuel on cold start-up - which is either a flow rate problem or problem with the CPR/WUR (which could just have some built up blockage on the screen). Given everything else that you've checked, I'm looking at the CPR/WUR.

[JIMJAM]

I cannot test to see if that pipe is leaking at the moment but I can grab it and its not moving any.

[Bitsyncmaster]

With the air cleaner off, in the dark, shine a flashlight where the pipe enters and press the air plate down and see if you get any light down there under the air plate.

[NightFlyer]

The light test that Dave recommended is good if you don't have carb cleaner handy.

But it sounds like the pipe/seal is good from your grab test.

Assuming that you're getting good flow to/through the FD, I'm thinking that it has to be the CPR/WUR. Could be as simple as built up blockage on the input port screen.

[JIMJAM]

Thanks.It got cold and really pouring so I am done today. Tues I will get back on it. Dave knows me well but I do not recall your name but I really appreciate your help. I was very active during the original forums when getting this car up and running was monumental undertaking. The car itself is one of the better looking and well maintained cars but the po let it set for 2 years while he was depoyed in Iraq. Pretty much well anything fuel touches has been replaced expept the fule tank and maybe the accumulator which may or may not be original.
My father bought a original offering Delorean back in 1981. And yes it was as bad as the stories and reputation it had. My dad bought his new and on the way home it overheated. Actually showed up on its maiden voyage to the house on the back of a flat bed.60 grand in today's money. Nothing but trouble from day 1. At the only auth Delorean dealership here in Columbia SC,which btw was a Cadillac dealer,the mechs had actually never seen a Delorean much less worked on one.Within a month 4 sat collecting dust in their maint area. In betreen being worked on,I drove it to school and kept it clean.Eventually it became to expensive and time consuming to keep up so it was sold.Now flash forward to 2006 and much to my father's disbelief, I purchased a almost identical equipped Delorean and early vin. I wanted to give the car another chance and take advantage of the new improvements and fixes. Took the better part of 3 years and,well who is counting $$$ to get to where I could drive it and not be staring at the back of a tow truck.

[Ron]

I would be surprised if the wiring boo boo had anything to do with the WUR/CPR frying since the short would have pulled power from the starter solenoid through the relay while cranking. That could explain a reduction in the spark (The points in the relay might be toast now or shorted and robbing power). Check the voltage going to the coil with the key in RUN then see if it raises while cranking, as it should. If the WUR/CPR went bad in the begining, it could have caused the backfire (lean), and be the whole problem now.
I believe a clogged input screen would cause it to go rich (remember it provides a counter acting pressure so the plunger will rise w/o it...).


At this point, I would:
1. Confirm that the voltage at the coil rises when cranking (White/Yellow wire at the resistor).
You need to get back to a good spark then move back to the fuel.
2. Get a vacuum reading while it is running (using the ether and pressing the plate trick).
3. Get pressure readings.

[JIMJAM]

Ok so you want me to hook that black wire back to the resistor again and try to start it?









:mallet:

[Ron]

Ok so you want me to hook that black wire back to the resistor again and try to start it?NO, never! That is exactly when it happen before. It is an unfused dead short while cranking.

I think you need to borrow Bullshit Button.

I meant: Put your meter on voltage, connect to ground and the White/Yellow wire at the resistor, have someone turn the key to Run, record the voltage, have them crank the engine while you watch the voltage, record this voltage.
If the voltage is good while the switch is in Run, the relay is not the reason it dies once you get it running..ie it IS ok when not triggered.
If the voltage raises while cranking, it is doing its job, it is ok when triggered (always during cranking, only).
If it passes both, you can basically forget about the relay (except I would replace it for GP after the boo boo) and look elsewhere for the weak fire problem -- I'm not going to mention the G word :deviltail:
Then back to all of the suggestions about the spark/fuel/vacuum everyone has posted...

Sorry for any confusion!

[JIMJAM]

Find the BS button and press it twice!!!! Look down a little on the post and see the icon!!
I am messin with ya. I do stupid crap but luckily I catch on quick and usually do not do it again for at least a year.

also that relay is a mystery as to which it is. What do I need to replace it with? As you know I have a bag full of other ones I replaced.The problem with the ones from John is he dremeled off the markings. So give me a dmc product id if you can.

[Ron]

Yeah, it is not in the online store's Ignition Components..
I believe it is one of these 106269A (http://store.delorean.com/p-10387-oem-changeover-relay.aspx) , or a Bosch: 0332-204-150. Dave can hook you up.

[JIMJAM]

Ok the only white/yellow wire I see goes to the bottom right of the resistor.Above it is the one I repaired today that had the piggyback 2 wires. You are saying set v test to volts dc" and connect pos to that yellow.white and black to a ground.
The rest I understand.
I would be surprised if i did not have that relay.I must have 20 old,new unknowns from John and even some from DMC.
I will wait to order until we figure out if anything else needs to be replaced.

[Ron]

Yes. You got it!

[JIMJAM]

hahaHaha You wanted to kick my ass didnt ya :biggrin: Cmon you know your BP went up at least 20 points........

I will do the voltage checks and get back to you. Just to check.... All I did that day was fill up. I added 10.5 gallons and then drove about 30 miles till I parked it. If it was bad gas I doubt i would have made it home.Anyways just wanted to throw that out there.

[NightFlyer]

Ron has you on the right track - confirm the operation of the ignition system, then move on to addressing the fuel issues, if they exist.

Best of luck!

[Bitsyncmaster]

A one man test of the ignition resistor bypass circuit is:
Pull the white wire off the resistor, start the car. It should start but die as soon as you stop cranking. In JimJam's case he would need a shot of starter fluid before that test.

Don't forget to put the white wire back onto the resistor after the test.

Yes I remember all your problems in your early years here. The intermittent starter problem was the worst to find just with internet troubleshooting.

[JIMJAM]

Ok, test of the resistor. "Put your meter on voltage, connect to ground and the White/Yellow wire at the resistor, have someone turn the key to Run, record the voltage, have them crank the engine while you watch the voltage, record this voltage."

Ign set to run. 8.22v
Starting car- jumps to 12 and some change.

I replaced the relay that the resistor goes to "mounted firewwall" with another simular older one.
Later o will pull a plug again and try to see if the spark is any stronger.


Edit- With the csv hooked up,remember I never had it hooked up in 5+ years, I just tried to start it. Working the gas pedal I was able to get it to run for about 5 seconds but could tell it was very rich so I let it die. Back in the back sure enough I could smell the gas and the exhaust was pretty smokey....

[Ron]

Assuming you swapped out the relay first, you are good to go :thumbup:

[JIMJAM]

Good to go? Car aint going no where. Whats next on the 100 point troubleshooting checklist?

[Bitsyncmaster]

You could try swapping out your WUR with your spare one. Mixture may not be perfect with the WUR swap but it should be pretty close.

[JIMJAM]

As I have said in the distant past the car always ran rich and had hot start issues so I never ran with the CSV hooked up. Just to see I went back out there and unplugged it and its not starting at all. So the only times it gets gas is with it hooked up.
Yeah I have a brand new one sitting in a box. Just let me know when all other options are covered and I can do it.

[Ron]

Good to go? Car aint going no where. Whats next on the 100 point troubleshooting checklist?I meant WRT the short through the relay.
Confirm the spark is as before (even though it runs), then back to the fuel/vac leak. The FD is ~new, so I like Dave's suggestion, especially with the way it died as I understand it...
If you can get it running and experiment with holding the plate in the right spot, it would give us all a few more clues... Really need to get fuel pressures. (You need a care package?)

[JIMJAM]

While I had it running I could hear a sucking noise but figured it was because my air filter is off. I have looked all over that engine for a hose that came off,anything loose etc but cannot find anything. I will recheck that spark later.

I need to record the time and leave the battery hooked up but I suspect the f pressure is not holdling very long. Seems to be maybe a hour or 2 at the most.I will add that to my list of things to do.

[Bitsyncmaster]

As I have said in the distant past the car always ran rich and had hot start issues so I never ran with the CSV hooked up. Just to see I went back out there and unplugged it and its not starting at all. So the only times it gets gas is with it hooked up.
Yeah I have a brand new one sitting in a box. Just let me know when all other options are covered and I can do it.

I think your at the point of installing that new WUR. It's a pretty quick job, just let your rest pressure die out overnight so you don't spray fuel all over.

[JIMJAM]

Yeah gonna check the spark again in the morning and then I will swap it out. I have been reading up on the fuel filter and accumulator and doubt I am physically able to replace them if needed.

Now seeing that I have never ran with the csv hooked up should I unplug it or leave it hooked up?

[NightFlyer]

As I have said in the distant past the car always ran rich and had hot start issues so I never ran with the CSV hooked up. Just to see I went back out there and unplugged it and its not starting at all. So the only times it gets gas is with it hooked up.
Yeah I have a brand new one sitting in a box. Just let me know when all other options are covered and I can do it.

So, it's getting enough fuel with the CSV hooked up to start, but what seems like too much fuel. But without the extra fuel from the CSV, it won't start at all, as if it's being starved for fuel. If it's starting and running with the CSV hooked up and tapping the peddle, even with extra fuel in the mixtures, then you're not flooding it to the point of dousing the spark.

Personally, here's what I would do - I'd start it (without the CSV hooked-up) while manually controlling the air metering plate, run it up to temp that way, and then let the plate go and see what happens - if it stays running or if it immediately dies. While you're running it up to temp, listen for the frequency value buzzing. Also use a can of carb cleaner to check for vacuum leaks. Watch the exhaust for any strange colors/smells. Then report back.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Yeah gonna check the spark again in the morning and then I will swap it out. I have been reading up on the fuel filter and accumulator and doubt I am physically able to replace them if needed.

Now seeing that I have never ran with the csv hooked up should I unplug it or leave it hooked up?

I have the thermal time switch unplugged so my CSV does not work in the summer. I use my hot start relay for winter starts. It turns on the CSV after one second of engine cranking.

Takes me a few hours to do the accumulator. I unbolt it so I can get an air impact on the pipe fittings.

[JIMJAM]

" I'd start it (without the CSV hooked-up) " It does nothing but turn over without the csv hooked up. When I get a second pair of hands to help I will try and work the plate and fuel from the engine.

Grabbed my next door neib.....
Ok I am going to try and start it without the csv and work the meter.

[JIMJAM]

Ok I am able to keep the engine running without the csv by moving the plate.Maybe 1/8 inch or so.Revs up fast and when I slightly back off it starts to to make alot of small backfires. Very difficult to keep it at a steady rpm. Eitehr revs up or wants to backfire and flood out.Smells running on the rich side but no smoke. Let go of the plate and the engine instantly dies.

[Ron]

Ok I am able to keep the engine running without the csv by moving the plate.Maybe 1/8 inch or so.Revs up fast and when I slightly back off it starts to to make alot of small backfires. Very difficult to keep it at a steady rpm. Eitehr revs up or wants to backfire and flood out.Smells running on the rich side but no smoke. Let go of the plate and the engine instantly dies.Have you moved the CO screw lately. Please say no.

Reading the above, I'm really liking giving it CPR

You know Jim gauges start with "G" too:drunk:

[JIMJAM]

Its has been burned into my brain and has become part of my DNA. "Dont touch that dam screw!!!! No.

So whats your best guess the WUR? Unless I hear otherwise sometime WED I am going to replace the WUR with the new one.

If that fails I might have to give Bill a call!

[Ron]

:rofl: OK you win, I'll quit messing with ya.

[NightFlyer]

Its has been burned into my brain and has become part of my DNA. "Dont touch that dam screw!!!! No.

So whats your best guess the WUR? Unless I hear otherwise sometime WED I am going to replace the WUR with the new one.

If that fails I might have to give Bill a call!

Yep, I've got nothing left other than the WUR/CPR. This assumes that fuel flow rate at the injectors has been positively confirmed.

Also pull the idle air motor, clean it, and replace.

From K-Jet.org:


The idle air motor can be cleaned out by removing it from the car completely and spraying it out with carb cleaner. Wear gloves and goggles! This stuff can burn the bejeezus out of your skin and eyes! Spray a bunch of carb cleaner in it and plug both of the ends. Now, shake it up as much as you can – up and down and roll it between your hands like you were trying to make a long snake out of Play-doh like in kindergarten. When you roll it, you should be able to hear it clicking back and forth. If you can’t hear anything moving in there, keep cleaning it or get a new motor. Make sure to shake out all of the excess carb cleaner and let the thing dry for a bit before you re-install it.

[JIMJAM]

Nahhh please more.... Remember I am a Delorean owner so I enjoy it :bash: 2nd generation at that. Think I would have learned from good ol dad but nooooooooo.
What is it,,,, Sadomasochism. Well I am a uuuhh Delormasochism. Yeah thats right I invented a new word. Go ahead and tell me to clean my grounds. Love,cherish,worship my grounds :fu:
Why do you think I have not joined Team Carb? I enjoy this self inflicted stainless steel shit.
Ok,enuff I think the fumes got to me. Need to remeber to open the garage doors next time.

[JIMJAM]

Replaced the WUR and nothing has changed.:what_the:

[Ron]

Assuming the spark is good (ahem), try leaving the CSV unplugged and pressing the plate down for one second then holding it open ~1/8 as before and see if it acts like when the CSV was plugged in or you gave it ether when it first tries to start.
I bet it will...meaning you need to get a gauge on it, IMO.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Assuming the spark is good (ahem), try leaving the CSV unplugged and pressing the plate down for one second then holding it open ~1/8 as before and see if it acts like when the CSV was plugged in or you gave it ether when it first tries to start.
I bet it will...meaning you need to get a gauge on it, IMO.

+1

Now your going to need that gauge set to eliminate a fuel pump problem.

[NightFlyer]

Or if you don't have gauges, you at least need to confirm flow rate and parity at the injectors - pull all injectors, place in jars, jump the fuel pump via the rpm relay, and check the flow rate at varying levels of air metering plate depression. At WOT, the injectors should flow at a rate of 6oz/minute per injector. Each injector should produce the same amount of fuel flow (or very close to even). Anemic flow = a problem further back in the system, ie FD (which I'm thinking not given that you have a fairly recent rebuild with new and confirmed PPR o-ring), fuel filter clogged, kinked fuel line (which you should have checked for already - especially by the accumulator), or fuel pump.

If the fuel filter hasn't been changed in quite a while, it could be clogged affecting your flow rate. As it would be good to change out anyway if it hasn't been replaced in a while, you could try this first before going to the trouble of pulling the injectors and checking flow rate.

[JIMJAM]

Deja Vu

I even have a new fuel filter but changing it out for me is difficult. IIRC it was replaced a few years ago and if so hopefully the fittings will not be much trouble. Time to get it up on ramps and crawl under there are stare at it and the accumulator. Hopefully both have been done before and they were put back on correctly.
Anybody out there within shouting distance wanna do this? I pay and keep you fed and entertained.

[JIMJAM]

Pulled the rear pass side plug again and had someone try to strt the car.Its bright outside but the spark is very very weak. That is all.

[Ron]

Did you try what I suggested above??

The other D is going to ATA this weekend and I am pulling the quarter panel off of my auto, so do you want me to send you the gauge? It will tell you about the accumilator and all of the things NF mentioned in the fuel system. It goes right where your favorite hose goes (WUR to center of the FD). You can do it!

[JIMJAM]

Gettting ready to shortly.

you just want the csv unplugged,have someone start it and me try and keep it running by moving the plate.Correct....

[NightFlyer]

Deja Vu

I even have a new fuel filter but changing it out for me is difficult. IIRC it was replaced a few years ago and if so hopefully the fittings will not be much trouble. Time to get it up on ramps and crawl under there are stare at it and the accumulator. Hopefully both have been done before and they were put back on correctly.
Anybody out there within shouting distance wanna do this? I pay and keep you fed and entertained.

Accumulator shouldn't be affecting the flow rate to the point of preventing starting (unless it completely failed inside - which is rare and if that happened, it would probably clog up the fuel filter as well), so you're just checking the hoses on that for any kinks. The accumulator can also be tested if you're up to it by pulling the rear facing hose off the return line 't,' blocking the 't' opening with a plug of some sort, and seeing if any fuel is coming out the back of the accumulator while the fuel pump is jumped at the RPM relay. Ideally, there shouldn't be any fuel coming out the back of the accumulator at all or very little - intermittent drops. If it's flowing regularly though, then the accumulator is shot and will need to be replaced, as will the fuel filter (as it is probably clogged with pieces from the accumulator diaphragm. But like I said this is EXTREMELY rare - in fact, I've never heard of this happening on a DeLorean, and have only read about it happening on some other k-jet equipped makes.

Filter clogs preventing starting though are quite common across all k-jet equipped makes.

As you pulled the fuel pump earlier, I'm assuming that you checked to make sure the pick-up hose hadn't collapsed in on itself, and that the pickup filter was clean/unblocked, as well check to make sure that the fuel pump hoses weren't kinked at all.

As a side note - if you have older teflon lined fuel hoses at either the pump or accumulator, they have been known to degrade rapidly, whereby the the teflon lining flakes off and plugs up the fuel filter. If you do have such hoses (which were popularly used in the early 2000's, many are orange in color), you'll want to change those out with either nylon cored hoses, or simple gates reinforced rubber fuel injection hose, and blow out the lines before changing the fuel filter.

Worst case scenario is that your fuel pump is shot and will need to be replaced.

Of course all this assumes that you're getting proper spark, which I'm assuming you are given that you can start it and keep it running by manually working the air metering plate. As this is the case, I'm fairly confident that you don't have an ignition problem.

BTW - did you ever check for vacuum leaks by spraying localized carb cleaner while manually keeping the car running?

[JIMJAM]

Ok same as last time. CSV unplugged.
I can keep the engine running albeit rough as hell and lots of little backfires. I really cannot find a sweetspot and keep it idling at a certain rpm but have to finese it. I tried spraying carb cleaner around the death/pain tube??? and to be honest with all that racket and sputtering i cannot tell a difference.

[NightFlyer]

Ok same as last time. CSV unplugged.
I can keep the engine running albeit rough as hell and lots of little backfires. I really cannot find a sweetspot and keep it idling at a certain rpm but have to finese it. I tried spraying carb cleaner around the death/pain tube??? and to be honest with all that racket and sputtering i cannot tell a difference.

Intake backfires (lean), or exhaust backfires (rich)?

As you keep saying that you think you have weak spark, I have to ask (even though you never mentioned anything about messing with the coil) - are you sure that you have your coil wired correctly? Did you ever put a meter on it to check primary and secondary resistance?

[JIMJAM]

I think its intake backfires. Lots of little rumbling types from the motor rather than the classic tailpipe kaboom.
I have not touched the car other than put gas in it since it had a going over last fall. Dont think we fooled with the coil at all.
Just "again" pulled the fuel pump and everything appears normal. I even checked the exhaust to make sure there were no potatoes in my pipes.

BTW I have other spare coils but they are the higher rated ones. A red one iirc and a silver flamethrower maybe????

[NightFlyer]

I think its intake backfires. Lots of little rumbling types from the motor rather than the classic tailpipe kaboom.
I have not touched the car other than put gas in it since it had a going over last fall. Dont think we fooled with the coil at all.
Just "again" pulled the fuel pump and everything appears normal. I even checked the exhaust to make sure there were no potatoes in my pipes.

BTW I have other spare coils but they are the higher rated ones. A red one iirc and a silver flamethrower maybe????

I'd at least put a meter on it (easy to do) - check the voltage going to the coil, and the primary and secondary resistance of the coil itself, just to make sure that the coil is good.

Also, if you haven't done so yet, pull the idle air motor and clean it out - a stuck or sticky motor can cause non-starts.

[JIMJAM]

idle air motor -Ok never had it out and cleaned it.Looking for some info as I type.Thanks....

[NightFlyer]

idle air motor -Ok never had it out and cleaned it.Looking for some info as I type.Thanks....

#10 in the diagram below. See http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?9473-First-No-Start-of-the-New-Year-Help-Wanted&p=139218&viewfull=1#post139218 for cleaning instructions.

http://store.delorean.com/images/Category/large/2-5-0.gif

[JIMJAM]

You are to kind. If you are ever down SC way be sure to let me know. Thanks,Jim

Unless I stumble across something chances are I am going to borrow or purchase whats needed to test the fuel pressures. I will then need to learn how to actually use it so if we get to that point this thread may be very,very long. Then before summer kicks I might have to tackle the fuel filter accumulator.

Anything is possible with this car but in the past the fuel dist,pump and of course the cursed electrical system were the majority of 95% of my issues.

[NightFlyer]

You are to kind. If you are ever down SC way be sure to let me know. Thanks,Jim

Unless I stumble across something chances are I am going to borrow or purchase whats needed to test the fuel pressures. I will then need to learn how to actually use it so if we get to that point this thread may be very,very long. Then before summer kicks I might have to tackle the fuel filter accumulator.

Anything is possible with this car but in the past the fuel dist,pump and of course the cursed electrical system were the majority of 95% of my issues.

Do this: disconnect the main feed line on the FD (the line from the fuel filter to the FD), put the line into an empty gas container (something that you can measure the amount of fuel with), and then jump the rpm relay to run the fuel pump for approximately a minute. If you get over a gallon of gas, then the filter and pump are presumably good. If not, then you may have a plugged fuel filter, accumulator hose kink (a very common problem this past year), complete accumulator failure, or a bad fuel pump.

If less than a gallon, check the accumulator hoses for kinks (these may not be apparent to the naked eye, but must be felt through the outer hose sheathing). If good, then test the accumulator as previously described. If good, then change the fuel filter.

[JIMJAM]

Great.I will clean the idle air motor and then perform this test.

[NightFlyer]

Great.I will clean the idle air motor and then perform this test.

Excellent!

Probably should have had you do this test before we had you doing other things (like swapping out the WUR/CPR), but I was making assumptions (bad - makes an ass out of me) based on the things that you were reporting.

Best of luck - the flow test will tell us a lot, and it's easy to do :thumbup:

[JIMJAM]

Well I had the wur just sitting around collecting dust. Been reading up on finding vac leaks.Since i cannot keep the motor running maybe I need to buy me a cheap cigar and smoke the engine and look for leaks. I see that make em but for 1000 bucks I think I can make my own smoke.

[NightFlyer]

Well I had the wur just sitting around collecting dust. Been reading up on finding vac leaks.Since i cannot keep the motor running maybe I need to buy me a cheap cigar and smoke the engine and look for leaks. I see that make em but for 1000 bucks I think I can make my own smoke.

Ha - definitely! :smokelot:

Or even one of those cheap smoking snakes (4th of July fireworks) - just get ready for that awful sulfur smell :tongue2:

[JIMJAM]

Took the idle motor out and gave it a good cleaning.When rolling I can hear movement/clicking......


I do not feel like messing with gas today so the fuel pump test will have to wait. I did put the car on ramps and here is a pic of the accumulator.

[Ron]

Try working the plate and throttle together and see if you can revv it. If so, you can give it the benefit of the doubt from the filter back for now (fair sign for the rest of the fuel too). ...narrows it down some since you will have to take the shotgun approach w/o a gauge, mostly.
Don't let the cigars turn you green!

[NightFlyer]

Try working the plate and throttle together and see if you can revv it. If so, you can give it the benefit of the doubt from the filter back for now (fair sign for the rest of the fuel too). ...narrows it down some since you will have to take the shotgun approach w/o a gauge, mostly.
Don't let the cigars turn you green!

When you say "from the filter back," do mean in the engine bay - ie FD, WUR/CPR, lambda system, injectors, etc, - or do you mean the fuel filter, accumulator, fuel pump, and the associated softline hoses (which I would consider as being "from the filter forward")?

Doing the flow rate test will definitively rule out the filter, accumulator, and associated hoses, in addition to giving a pretty good presumption about the pump (to be absolutely certain about the pump, gauges would be needed).

[NightFlyer]

Took the idle motor out and gave it a good cleaning.When rolling I can hear movement/clicking......


I do not feel like messing with gas today so the fuel pump test will have to wait. I did put the car on ramps and here is a pic of the accumulator.

That's good to hear about the idle air motor :thumbup:

Good news about the accumulator is that it appears that the hoses are of the non-teflon lined variety. Did you reach up and feel the length of the two front facing hoses for any kind of deformation/kinking/internal breakage?

[JIMJAM]

I did not have a cigar to smoke but I did have a funny looking cigarette a friend from Denver sent me. For some reason he cut the filter off it and it looks like it must have been squashed during shipping.
I took a few drags and blew it into the engine. I do not see any leaks but you know what? Not starting has became funny as hell cause I cannot stop laughing and I have the sudden urge to go inside and pig out on hotdogs covered in peanut butter and Capt Crunch!:Headspin:

[NightFlyer]

I did not have a cigar to smoke but I did have a funny looking cigarette a friend from Denver sent me. I took a few drags and blew it into the engine. I do not see any leaks but you know what? Not starting has became funny as hell cause I cannot stop laughing and I have the sudden urge to go inside and pig out on hotdogs covered in peanut butter and Capt Crunch!:Headspin:

Just so long as you stay away from the Doritos and Funyuns :biggrin:

[Ron]

A birthday present??

[JIMJAM]

I ask for a stripper and got a belt sander.

[JIMJAM]

"Try working the plate and throttle together and see if you can revv it. If so, you can give it the benefit of the doubt from the filter back for now"

Ok I was able to crack the plate open about 1/8 inch and rev the piss out of it.Using the throttle spool was not as effective. The plate you get a instant rev or die but the giving it gas was slow to respond and it easy to cause the engine to want to die.In other words it did not respond like a well running engine would have. Lots of backfiring and popping.
Did this for approx 2 minutes and the heat off the exhaust was hot.

[NightFlyer]

"Try working the plate and throttle together and see if you can revv it. If so, you can give it the benefit of the doubt from the filter back for now"

Ok I was able to crack the plate open about 1/8 inch and rev the piss out of it.Using the throttle spool was not as effective. The plate you get a instant rev or die but the giving it gas was slow to respond and it easy to cause the engine to want to die.In other words it did not respond like a well running engine would have. Lots of backfiring and popping.
Did this for approx 2 minutes and the heat off the exhaust was hot.

Still not sure why Ron wanted you to do that. Doing the flow rate test is the only way to definitively eliminate stuff from the fuel filter to the pump. If flow rate is confirmed as being good, then I'm leaning towards an ignition/electrical problem of some sort, which we'll tackle if it becomes necessary.

[JIMJAM]

I guess he is saying if you can rev it up then its getting enough gas.

Kinda funny but a older man I never met who lives 5 houses down walked up and was like what the heck is going on?? He admits he knows nothing about Deloreans but owns a vintage Porsche a nice 70s era Vette. He said he heard all that racket and thought the timing was WAY off or he has one hell of a vac leak. Came up to check on me!

But yeah Sat or Sun I am going to pull that line and jump the pump and see how much fuel it pumps in a minute.

[Ron]

When you say "from the filter back," do mean in the engine bay - ie FD, WUR/CPR, lambda system, injectors, etc, - or do you mean the fuel filter, accumulator, fuel pump, and the associated softline hoses (which I would consider as being "from the filter forward")?
Semantics/jargon. I'm used to viewing/discussing it in terms of the flow: Back=toward the pump=upstream....


Still not sure why Ron wanted you to do that. Doing the flow rate test is the only way to definitively eliminate stuff from the fuel filter to the pump. If flow rate is confirmed as being good, then I'm leaning towards an ignition/electrical problem of some sort, which we'll tackle if it becomes necessary.


I guess he is saying if you can rev it up then its getting enough gas.
Yeah...If it will let you repeatedly revv it way up, you are probably getting enough pressure and volume (flow), leaving poor "delivery" (hey, it's k-jet lol), or, a vacuum leak, especially assuming nothing like timing, CO, etc, has been messed with.
IMO, a gauge is the way to check the flow. If the readingS are off when you revv it (fall), you aren't getting enough flow, and, the gauge can tell you which circuit(s) has a problem. But, I can see measuring the amount over a given time to compare with known values from a good car, especially if you are having a hard time getting a constant RPM at a rate you can check it at. It's the same thing if ya think about it, but the gauge can tell you more because there are more than one pressure circuit and it is realtime fwiw.

And to beat a dead horse, here, a bad FV signal is as good a guess as any, until you put a gauge on it....

[JIMJAM]

Ok give me a link to a good but reasonably priced fuel pressure test setup. I will order it and get that out of the way.--http://www.ebay.com/itm/CTA-Tools-3420-Bosch-K-Jetronic-C-I-S-Fuel-Injection-Pressure-Tester-?????/111286026810?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19e92a023a
I got the car on ramps and got under for a good long look over.I tracked the fuel line from the filter to the fuel dist. So you want me to unhook the line from the dist and put it in a container,jump the rpm relay and let the pump run 1 minute. I will then post the measurement.I plan to do this tomorrow.

Also when I took a look at the o ring in the f dist it I did not see any chips,cut etc but did not replace it. I believe if it aint broke.....especially with the o ring. Long history with those dam things. However I have a bag with a dozen vitons which this one seems to be and can replace it if need be.But if this is ruled out totally I do not want to touch it again.

FREQUENCY VALVE??? Can you buy these? DMc does not have them.

[DMCMW Dave]

Ok give me a link to a good but reasonably priced fuel pressure test setup. I will order it and get that out of the way.--http://www.ebay.com/itm/CTA-Tools-3420-Bosch-K-Jetronic-C-I-S-Fuel-Injection-Pressure-Tester-?????/111286026810?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19e92a023a
I got the car on ramps and got under for a good long look over.I tracked the fuel line from the filter to the fuel dist. So you want me to unhook the line from the dist and put it in a container,jump the rpm relay and let the pump run 1 minute. I will then post the measurement.I plan to do this tomorrow.

Also when I took a look at the o ring in the f dist it I did not see any chips,cut etc but did not replace it. I believe if it aint broke.....especially with the o ring. Long history with those dam things. However I have a bag with a dozen vitons which this one seems to be and can replace it if need be.But if this is ruled out totally I do not want to touch it again.

FREQUENCY VALVE??? Can you buy these? DMc does not have them.

He said FV signal failure. FV failure itself is pretty rare. Sometimes they get stuck but a sharp rap with a hammer will unstick them.

[JIMJAM]

Hi Dave.Been down to SC recently?
Well not much left to do without measuring the fuel pressure. Which one do you suggest? I will go ahead and order it. The car can be started and kept running albeit very very rough and backfiring by manipulating air plate. I am still going to pull the fuel line and run the pump and see how much its pumping in a minute.That is unless I am just wasting my time. Anything we missed feel free to jump in.Thanks

[NightFlyer]

As Jimjam reported not having gauges, I wanted to give him a way to trouble-shoot without them. And while the rev-up test kind of does that, it's also possible that the reason that he can't keep it running is because of incorrect pressure/flow from something malfunctioning 'upstream,' despite being able to get temporary rev-ups, which are accompanied by what he believes to be are intake backfires, thus indicating a lean condition. Other than the gauges, the flow-rate test and accumulator test are the next best things in eliminating upstream components from the search for what's wrong. They're also free to do, requiring only time/effort, and he doesn't have to wait for delivery of diagnostic tools to perform them.

But yes, as I stated before, the gauges will be far more accurate and can be used to pinpoint engine bay components. However, given that we already eliminated the WUR/CPR, idle air (CIS) motor, and are giving the FD the benefit of the doubt because of its relative newness, that pretty much leaves the FV.

If the problem was with the FV, and if it's a mechanical problem, they can usually be fixed by jarring it with a hammer.

I'm starting to think that this is an electrical (non-ignition) problem though (possibly with the signal to the FV) - and admittedly, I'm not very familiar with the electrical side of things, but will help as much as I can.

Yeah, you should still do the flow rate test - and yes, unhook the feed line (from the filter) at the fuel distributor, place it into a gas container that you can use to measure the amount of fuel with, and jump the fuel pump on at the rpm relay for 1 minute. You should get roughly 1.15 +/- gallons of fuel if everything upstream of the FD is operating normally.

Also, check the two micro-switches - the idle speed micro switch and the full throttle micro switch. Make sure that the idle speed micro switch is plugged in and clicking as it should, by manually manipulating it a few times. DON'T mess with the set screw. Do the same with the full throttle micro switch, making sure that it clicks. Do both these things with the car off. For reference:

https://www.specialtauto.com/delorean-parts/images/idle-speed-adj.jpg

https://www.specialtauto.com/delorean-parts/images/full-throttle-sw.jpg

Also, check the grounds on the back of both the driver and passenger side intake runners - make sure that they're clean and solid connections.

Then unplug the FV electrical connector - check the connector for corrosion and clean as needed. Then plug it back in.

I'm starting to suspect that something is merely unplugged, or failing to make a good connection.

See what you've got and report back :smile:

[Bitsyncmaster]

I'm still thinking it's a fuel issue since it seems to start so repeatably with the air plate test. My test scenario would be pressure check first. Then if good do the injectors flow test. I think it's a lean condition since it won't start without the CSV connected. Of course since I have a dwell meter, I would have tried adjusting the mixture but without one, that should not be done.

[Ron]

As Jimjam reported not having gauges, I wanted to give him a way to trouble-shoot without them. And while the rev-up test kind of does that, it's also possible that the reason that he can't keep it running...No one is knocking the idea. As said, I for one agree a timed volume test could tell us a lot, even though the pump would not be under load... But you seem to be missing two things concerning the revv test, he can keep it running and the test requires repeated high revs (back to back). It would go lean and try to singe his eyebrows (..stumble/die) if it runs out of fuel at high RPM, not do the typical k-jet pop&grumble lol. I.E. if there is enough to handle from off idle to high RPM and back, repeatedly, it should have no problem supplying enough to idle (what, ~8 times as much as top end?). See?

Troubleshooting K-Jet without a gauge is like troubleshooting solid state with a probe light instead of a multimeter/scope. But, one has to do what they can with what they have, like you say, especially if one is goal oriented and a bit impatient (Jim who ;-)

[JIMJAM]

Ok which freaking pressure test kit to get!!!! Also lets find me a good dwell meter. Betreen buying the 2 it will help the economy and keep me confused for weeks!
but really. Tell me what I need and lets get it on its way. If betreen now and then I get it running great.
I am going to run the test after lunch.Still need to find me a good cigar.

[JIMJAM]

I found 2.

[JIMJAM]

Jumped the rpm relay.....Fuel flow ran strong and steady. After 1 minute its looks like its right at or just above 1 gallon.

[Ron]

John H has gauges for ~$100. Check this link out. (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?7265-K-Jetronic-Fuel-Tester-Gauges)

Here is a cheap dwell meter (http://www.sears.com/actron-dwell-tach-volt-meter/p-00902165000P?sid=IDx01192011x000001&kpid=00902165000&kispla=00902165000P). You need one like this (analog not digital), it also has RPM and Volts. They hold up well.

[JIMJAM]

"If you ever convert to carburetion you are going to need an expensive tool: screwdriver."

[Ron]

LMAO! ...I have $100 that says I can guess the source in two guesses, and both are nocturnal.:clown:

[NightFlyer]

This is the dwell meter that I personally use and can highly recommend:

[img]http://i.ebayimg.com/00/$(KGrHqN,!hcE3ypfOiGLBN86)GmPt!~~_12.JPG[img]

It can be purchased here:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CP7678-SUNPRO-PRO-10-MEGOHM-PROFESSIONAL-DIGITAL-MULTIMETER-u-/190847140466?hash=item2c6f604272&item=190847140466&vxp=mtr

http://www.buya.com/Item/Details/SUNPRO-Multimeter-CP7678/6afcdce4c5e74eeb8c64d06946ef896c?gclid=CKzHqZXn270 CFYFhMgodnBwAEw

Note: DO NOT purchase the new Actron branded version of this model. Get the NOS Sunpro branded version, as the dwell, duty cycle, and tach features are more accurate on the NOS version of the model. Also, the NOS Sunpro branded models are made in Korea (the ones that say 'Auto Power Off' and 'Water Resistant' on the top of the case) or Taiwan (the one that say 'Auto Power Off' and 'Water Resistant' on the bottom of the case). The new Actron branded version of this model is made in China.

I'll defer to others about a good K-jet diagnostic gauge set, as I don't have one myself.

Flow rate sounds like it's about dead on, thus you can pretty much eliminate the filter and accumulator from the list. Also gives a good indication that the fuel pump is OK, but to know for sure, you have to test it under load with a gauge.

Absent checking the electrical things that I previously mentioned, the next thing that you can do is an injector test, as this will let you know the status of the FD and injectors.

To do this test, you have to remove all the injectors, place them in exacting similar jars marked with the injector number of the corresponding injector that you place in the jar, , jump the fuel pump via the rpm relay, and then manipulate the air metering plate continuously at varying levels of depression per test - example: 1st test, you hold the plate 1/10 open, 2nd test 1/2 open, 3rd test full throttle. For each test, you want to hold the plate long enough so that you can visually observe each injector and so that there is enough fuel in your jars to compare against each other. In between each test, you remove the injectors from the jars and line the jars up so that you can compare the amount of fuel in each. The amount of fuel in the jars should be even, or very close to even. If they are, then your FD and injectors are presumably good. But note any that aren't as you're running the test. I like to take a picture of the jars lined up with a digital camera after each test. At the conclusion of the three tests, swap the hose position of any bad (low) injectors on the FD with the positions of known good injectors, and then rerun the battery of tests. If the bad injectors stay the same, then there's a problem with those injectors, but if the bad injectors switched to what appeared to be good injectors before the hose position swap on the FD, then you know that the problem is with the FD.

After knowing the condition of the FD and injectors, you're down to the fuel pump (although it's presumably good) and the lambda system as far as mechanical parts of the fuel system are concerned. Although, as I sated before, I'm starting to think that it's an electrical problem - idle ecu, lambda ecu, bad ground, something unplugged, loose connection, etc.

You mentioned that your car guy neighbor said that it sounded as if the timing was off - I'm wondering if a faulty electrical connection doesn't have the ignition stuck in an advanced state.

[JIMJAM]

I have done that dreaded jar test years ago and still have about 15 fuel injectors and went through 3 fuel dist to prove it. All either nos or slightly used. So I have chased that rabbit in the past before just not with this dist.
I went though and pulled,tugged snapped,popped,jiggled and wiggled about every connection I know of.Must be a hundred.Still no start. I suspect you may be right and it could be a wire but we have eliminated it down to where it cannot be that dam many of em.Its getting gas,does not start but it does run and can be coaxed to rev up albeit rought as hell.
But before I am about to go through all that crap I have another test I would do first.
Its called the Steep Incline Cliff Brake Calibration Test "SICBCT" Its a very steep road that dead ends into a 50 foot drop into a lake.

[NightFlyer]

I have done that dreaded jar test years ago and still have about 15 fuel injectors and went through 3 fuel dist to prove it. All either nos or slightly used. So I have chased that rabbit in the past before just not with this dist.
I went though and pulled,tugged snapped,popped,jiggled and wiggled about every connection I know of.Must be a hundred.Still no start. I suspect you may be right and it could be a wire but we have eliminated it down to where it cannot be that dam many of em.Its getting gas,does not start but it does run and can be coaxed to rev up albeit rought as hell.

If you previously confirmed your injectors,then I'd be inclined to think that they're OK. The FD however is somewhat 'delicate' and needs to be practically perfect in order for the system to work properly. The injector test, unfortunately, is the only way that I know how to confirm proper operation of the FD. And if it is a fuel delivery issue, then running this test is unavoidable. I know - it sucks. But what can you do...

As the electrical stuff goes, make sure that you're unplugging the connectors, inspecting for corrosion, checking for damaged/bent pins, and then fully re-seating the connections/wires when you plug them back in. Don't forget the bulkhead connectors (behind the coil cover), but be careful doing this, as you don't want to damage anything. Also, check the grounds located on the back of both intake runners (as well as the other engine/trans grounds) - make sure that they're clean and solid. Make sure that no wires melted/broke. Also make sure that the micro-switches are clicking as they should when you manually manipulate them.

As I'm not that familiar with the electrical side of things, hopefully someone else will chime in with some advice of what/how you diagnose using a meter (if you have one).

Also, make sure that all the vacuum hoses are hooked up properly - make sure that you didn't knock the vacuum hose off the nipple on the back of the intake runner, and make sure that the vacuum advance hose on the distributor hasn't fallen off.

If you can, check the ignition advance solenoid with a meter, as that could have failed.

Hopefully it isn't a bad ECU.


But before I am about to go through all that crap I have another test I would do first.
Its called the Steep Incline Cliff Brake Calibration Test "SICBCT" Its a very steep road that dead ends into a 50 foot drop into a lake.

Sounds like something that needs to be video'd - for posterity :biggrin:

[JIMJAM]

Must be popular around here because at least once a month on the news I see them pull about 2 cars out of that lake.

[JIMJAM]

Been busy,been raining,been doing life but finally got around to doing some basic fuel pressure test.
Describing this so future owners that migh//// will have starting issues can learn from my learning this wonderful fuel system..
Bought this off Ebay...S&G Tool Aid #33865 Bosch CIS C.I.S. K-Jetronic Fuel Injection Pressure Tester
Remember to put the hose with the valve on the Wur side. Use the long brass fitting on the fuel dist top.Makes it much easier to tighten. All brass fittings came with rubber o-rings and I had no leak issues.
Procedure-Bat off " I have a battery cut off" ,jumped the RPM relay,closed the valve on the fuel tester. turned my battery on. I can hear the fuel pump running.
Pressure reading valve closed was 70 psi.
Open valve reading was 28.
Resting pressure at 4pm was 45. After 4.20 it was 40. 38 at 4.45. 30 at 5.30. At 6pm it was at 20 psi and I could watch it slowly moving lower.
I am using one of Dave's modded relays but do not think I have the jumper enable to bump the pressure to help with those with hot start issues.
I am alone and cannot start the car and test running pressures. BtW a reminder the car will start but I need to manipulate the air plate to keep it running. Its runs very erratic,rough and backfires.

[NightFlyer]

Been busy,been raining,been doing life but finally got around to doing some basic fuel pressure test.
Describing this so future owners that migh//// will have starting issues can learn from my learning this wonderful fuel system..
Bought this off Ebay...S&G Tool Aid #33865 Bosch CIS C.I.S. K-Jetronic Fuel Injection Pressure Tester
Remember to put the hose with the valve on the Wur side. Use the long brass fitting on the fuel dist top.Makes it much easier to tighten. All brass fittings came with rubber o-rings and I had no leak issues.
Procedure-Bat off " I have a battery cut off" ,jumped the RPM relay,closed the valve on the fuel tester. turned my battery on. I can hear the fuel pump running.
Pressure reading valve closed was 70 psi.
Open valve reading was 28.
Resting pressure at 4pm was 45. After 4.20 it was 40. 38 at 4.45. 30 at 5.30. At 6pm it was at 20 psi and I could watch it slowly moving lower.
I am using one of Dave's modded relays but do not think I have the jumper enable to bump the pressure to help with those with hot start issues.
I am alone and cannot start the car and test running pressures. BtW a reminder the car will start but I need to manipulate the air plate to keep it running. Its runs very erratic,rough and backfires.

As I've no experience with actually pressure testing the system, I'll defer to Ron and others to weigh in on the readings that you experienced and how to interpret them.

As I stated before, I'm starting to think that this is a timing issue being caused a faulty electrical or vacuum system.

Try this: remove the vacuum line from the distributor and plug the hose with something (like a golf tee), and then try to start it. Any changes?

[Ron]

Assuming the engine was dead cold and the ambient was 65 F (+/- 5), the only thing that looks questionable is the Primary Pressure (valve closed), it's borderline low (spec is 71.05 -79.75 psi). If the engine was warmer, then the Control Pressure (valve Open) should have been higher. I'm also leaning to it not being fuel now, unless it is contaminated....did you look for/notice any water in the fuel when you did the injector test? Possibly get water in the distributor rinsing the engine right before the problems started? Do ANY work not mention, no matter how insignificant it might seem to you?
Did you do the Smoke test? Timing check?
If all the above passed, I'd try getting it running at some constant RPM, pull the plug wires one at a time and record: no change, engine slows/speeds up, backfires improve/worsen, any differences...
WRT disconnecting the vacuum advance at the distributor- There should be no vacuum there at any time the engine is less than 104F. Above that, there should be none when the accelerator pedal is at rest. There shouldn't be much while cranking anyway...IF the timing was being advanced while cranking, it would crank hard (i.e. lope similar to having a slightly weak battery).
I second the motion on a video ;-)

Hang in there!!!

[JIMJAM]

Recap-Earlier that day I did fill up the car 10.5 gallons. Then drove approx 30 miles.Parked 3 hrs later attempted start and loud backfire.No start. Can only start if I manually work the air plate. Very rough running,erratic,backfires,dies instantly if I let go of the plate.
No work or tinkering done.Drove approx 60 miles that day. one instance of the "dead ign" issue when turning the key which you are aware of.
dead cold-70 degrees today.
I have only pulled 1 injector earlier on to verify fuel making it that far.
I opened the tank and took out the pump.lines,screen all look ok.
No smoke test.
I have not checked timing but I have had 3 people tell me they suspect the timing went out? Only my father who once owned a D has any experience with Deloreans. I do not own a timing light but suspect I will soon and also learn how to use it.
I can get a mirror on the dist and nothing appears loose. I can also get a few fingers on it. The coil seems to be plugged in tight.

[Ron]

I'm thinking buy a cigar and borrow a timing light from AutoZone etc. at this point ;-)

That first backfire is bugging me...(pulling plug wires may point us somewhere).

[JIMJAM]

I have seen generic "how to" vids on using a cigar that you blow into the engine.Which line do I need to pull and get the smoke into? I know I need to plug the air filter hose anything else to close off,cover?
Cant you get a cheap timing light for like 30 bucks?

Problem is i really got to rev it up to keep the engine from stalling out so doing that and pulling plug wires might be yanking them especially on the drvs side.

[NightFlyer]

Assuming the engine was dead cold and the ambient was 65 F (+/- 5), the only thing that looks questionable is the Primary Pressure (valve closed), it's borderline low (spec is 71.05 -79.75 psi). If the engine was warmer, then the Control Pressure (valve Open) should have been higher. I'm also leaning to it not being fuel now, unless it is contaminated....did you look for/notice any water in the fuel when you did the injector test? Possibly get water in the distributor rinsing the engine right before the problems started? Do ANY work not mention, no matter how insignificant it might seem to you?
Did you do the Smoke test? Timing check?
If all the above passed, I'd try getting it running at some constant RPM, pull the plug wires one at a time and record: no change, engine slows/speeds up, backfires improve/worsen, any differences...
WRT disconnecting the vacuum advance at the distributor- There should be no vacuum there at any time the engine is less than 104F. Above that, there should be none when the accelerator pedal is at rest. There shouldn't be much while cranking anyway...IF the timing was being advanced while cranking, it would crank hard (i.e. lope similar to having a slightly weak battery).
I second the motion on a video ;-)

Hang in there!!!

Agree that there shouldn't be much vacuum when cranking, but then again, it wouldn't take much advance to throw the timing off - especially when trying to start and run the engine from cold.

As to how/why the distributor could be getting vacuum when it shouldn't be - the solenoid could be faulty, or not receiving the right signals from the thermal switch or micro switch.

@Jim - did you ever check and confirm the electrical and hose connections on the vacuum advance solenoid and micro switch? Also make sure that the full throttle micro switch isn't stuck closed (activated)?

I'd try pulling and plugging the vacuuming advance on the distributor - it certainly can't hurt anything.

The vacuum advance solenoid hangs off the back of the mixing unit behind the fuel distributor. Here's a photo for reference:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ZGi3uhzgoNI/UItcUXIEwYI/AAAAAAAABTs/uPR1Q7Rk-Q0/s1600/IMG_3910.JPG

[Ron]

Yeah they are relatively cheap.
I'd use the vacuum nipple on the rear of the rail horn.
You have to get the engine running at a relatively constant RPM for the pulling plug wires test to make any sense.

[JIMJAM]

vacuum advance solenoid

Never touched it and the car has ran perfectly for 4 months or so. I did tug on the lines a few days ago and cleaner the connections but I have never taken them off. What do you mean by pulling and plugging it?

[NightFlyer]

vacuum advance solenoid

Never touched it and the car has ran perfectly for 4 months or so. I did tug on the lines a few days ago and cleaner the connections but I have never taken them off. What do you mean by pulling and plugging it?

You want to check the connections (electrical and vacuum hoses) on the solenoid only - no need to pull it.

You do want to pull the vacuum hose (from the solenoid) off the distributor and plug the hose (a golf tee works just fine), because if the solenoid is malfunctioning, the open hose would represent a vacuum leak.

Then try to start and see if there's any changes.

[Ron]

Agree that there shouldn't be much vacuum when cranking, but then again, it wouldn't take much advance to throw the timing off - especially when trying to start and run then engine from cold.

As to how/why the distributor could be getting vacuum when it shouldn't be - the solenoid could be faulty, or not receiving the right signals from the thermal switch or micro switch.


5 in HG = 3°
10 in HG = 12°
15 in HG = 20°

So, there's not going to be a significant amount of vacuum/advance while cranking (even if it were connected directly to the plenum)...and as mentioned, it would crank very hard if it was way high, which it don't.
Try this- Warm engine. Reverse the hoses on the solenoid valve. This will prevent it from venting. So, if you rev it and not let the accelerator hit the micro switch, it will be at full advance. Now crank on it...it will start right up even though it would start even harder with too high timing with a warm engine. (Ask me how I found this one out lol) See?

[Ron]

You be smokin'? LOL

[JIMJAM]

Hmmmmmm.....Capt obvious.:jawdrop:

Swisher Sweet cigar- $1.25
Smoke machine leak detector- $1000.00

[Ron]

Gasket #11 split and allowed it/them to vibrate loose maybe?? (Check its 4 bolts too...)

You are on it now dude!

[JIMJAM]

With a Delorean anything is possible.Luckily it decided to fail in my garage. Its odd that it ran perfect all day until I parked it and tried to start it hours later. That big backfire I heard might have been in straw that broke its back? I just cannot see it running with that big of a vacuum leak that day without me knowing it.
Thanks again and I will get a better look see Tues.

[NightFlyer]

Whoa - how did that happen?!?!

I don't want to speak too soon, but I think you found your problem. First time I ever saw anything like that...

Best of luck!

[JIMJAM]

I am going to look it over before I spend 10 bucks or so shipping a what,$1.25 bolt. I have enough spare parts to build a second car but doubt I have this.
Man I am due some good news and if its just a matter of tighten all this back down I will be most grateful.:worship:

[Ron]

+1 NF. I've seen turbo setups allow the assembly to move a lot (e.g what intermittently screwed up the micro switch adjustment on the one with the solenoid vac lines reversed I mentioned -- Nice pile of hair on that one.)

=====

I'm guessing 5 bolts...or fishing in the VOD with a magnet. ...and maybe a #11 gasket.

[Bitsyncmaster]

That missing bolt is a very long 7mm bolt. I think it often gets stripped. On my car I replaced it with an 8mm bolt after I tapped the threads to the larger size.

[Ron]

+1

IIRC, we did that a few years ago already -- We definitely pitched the one that was in there at the time.

[Bitsyncmaster]

+1

IIRC, we did that a few years ago already -- We definitely pitched the one that was in there at the time.

You can also drill that pot metal where the threads go all the way through. Then you can use a longer bolt also. Of course you need to tap threads where you drilled.

[JIMJAM]

Well in 3 or so days I will find out if the new one fits and tightens up.Hopefully the threads are useable.

[JIMJAM]

without that screw I moved the buttfly assy around until when I blew into a vac line it was sealed. Went and turned the key and it fire right up.Idled fine at the pressure gauge was at 40 and climbed to about 60. Let it idle for maybe 2 minutes and shut it down. What a wonky put together that whole unit is. If that one screw comes loose it instantly creates one hell of a vac leak since it basically just sandwiches the 2 together.

[NightFlyer]

without that screw I moved the buttfly assy around until when I blew into a vac line it was sealed. Went and turned the key and it fire right up.Idled fine at the pressure gauge was at 40 and climbed to about 60. Let it idle for maybe 2 minutes and shut it down. What a wonky put together that whole unit is. If that one screw comes loose it instantly creates one hell of a vac leak since it basically just sandwiches the 2 together.

SWEET :thumbup:

Definitely a wonky setup, as so many things on these cars are.

So glad that you finally got it figured out!

Will you still be able to use it for the event that you wanted to use it for?

[Ron]

Did ya check out gasket #11 here (http://store.delorean.com/c-334-1-4-1-air-induction-system.aspx), and the 4 bolts holding it between #9 and #11 while it was all apart? I'm not thinking the long screw missing would allow the slop on both sides if I understand what you have...

[JIMJAM]

No I did not pull out the throttle body to get to it. What is it like a rubber boot? Thats what freaked me out was the movement you can get. I thought that was a huge gap but its filled by not a flat seal but that thick gasket.
DMC do not have it anyways.
But when I tighten all the bolts and position everything just right,I blew into that vac line and it felt airtight. When the bolt comes in and I get it back together I will fire up another cig.
I will worry about the rich/lean idle bridge when I get there.

9 and 11 are not connected by bolts. Show me how bolts #5 connect to the air mixture?? I see them but all they do is hold the gasket on if I am seeing it right. Looks like if I wanted I could just pull back and rip the gasket off if I tried.

In other words look back at page 14,ist pic with the pencil.That gap freaked me out. but its sealed by that gasket. But there is nothing but forward force sealing it against the mixiing unit??#10 is just sandwiched and held in place by putting on the throttle manifold.Then you have to get it all lined up which i did, and then the missing bolt is all that keep it in place.Nothing in front of it but that black gasket. I see the 4 bolts but they do not go into anything in front of it but appear to just hold on the gasket. Am I crazy? No do not answer that.

[Ron]

The pic with a pencil is way to dark in that area for me to see here

Look at #11's individual picture on the site- http://store.delorean.com/p-6396-gskt-lwr-hsgtv.aspx
There are holes in it for two sets of 4 bolts, one set holds it to #9 and one set to #10
Sounds like it might be split or you have a set of bolts missing/loose...it does allow for a lot of movement normally.

[JIMJAM]

Anyways its going to be 3-5 days before I can get the missing bolt so somebody round me up that gasket and I will buy one.****Just placed a post in Wanted for that gasket. PM me if you have one****

Edit- Here is the part "not mine". The front of it "black gasket side" has no holes for bolts. There is just that gasket that goes in betreen it and the mixing unit correct? Other than that missing bolt that goes into it, there is nothing else holding it. No? On the gasket side there are bolts, I can see them and they are tight but they do not connect to the mixing unit.

Same with the side facing the rear that conects to the manifold with the black o rings. Other than that missing bolt, nothing to hold it. Now granted when you put on the manifold bolts, the ones with the paper seals, its going to pull them together.

All I did was take off the manifold,push the butt/assy forward,line up and properly seat the o-rings,then put the manifold back on.Started right up.

[Bitsyncmaster]

From memory, I think there are O-rings and thick black plastic washers that make the seal on the throttle body side.

The W pipe is what holds everything from moving so I leave the "L" brackets a little loose until that W pipe has things bolted down. Then tighten the "L" brackets. Your curb idle and idle switch adjustments may change a little when you pull things apart than far.

[JIMJAM]

Yeah i figured out the front of the throttle body.Its that black thick gasket that had me confused because the body just presses against it and the gasket is held in place with 4 bolts,not metal to metal. Well I got the car running yesterday during my short run but a closer look at that gasket and its old. I need to find another so if anyone knows where one is please let me know.

[DMCMW Dave]

The W-pipe side is an o-ring seal. It is held in place by one long 7mm bolt.

The black rubber thing is much more than a gasket- it is a purposely flexible joint. Rubber. It can be damaged by indiscriminate use of solvents, and once it opens up it is a huge unmetered air leak, NOT a vacuum leak as it is on the atmospheric side of the throttle. It lets are to the throttle that has not been measured by the metering plate, so the car will be WAY too lean and probably not run at idle depending on how big the hole in it is.

The black rubber seal is hard to install correctly as there are washers on both sides of the mounting ears. If you leave the washers out it will bend and probably tear.

Hard to find part at this point.

[JIMJAM]

Thats what confused me is that its a flexible accordian like. I do not think its leaking but I can tell its old. I am missing that long bolt which obviously fell out which is on order. I just let the car idle with the occasional rev and got it up to temp. Fuel pressure stays at 50 and the idle is 800 and some change. Smells a little rich but until I secure it all with that bolt I am happy that it appears I found the problem.
Not want to get to far ahead of myself but if that 7mm rattled out I may have to do what some others have and thats to go up to a 8mm. I will cross that bridge when I get there.

[SpudMurphy]

jeez I read 152 posts - and there's no soddin' conclusion?:spank:

[JIMJAM]

Because of a back injury I usually tinker with a issue and eventually get it done.
That acordian rubber flexible joint is RARE and I was contacted by a few who had them but they wanted over $100 for a 30+ yr piece of rubber. I determined I would tighten down what I had and see if it leaked. It appears to not and I have not had a issue with it since my last post.

Also, there was someone on Ebay selling a stainless steel alternative that was not much more than that hard to find, 30+ yr old rubber seals. I bought one as its aluminum as opposed to rubber and also allows more air to flow thought it. Don't know if that matters but I wanted a permanent solution if/when that fossil/rubber joint fails.

[David T]

There doesn't seem to be a lot of failures of that part. If you have one that is damaged it is probably because it was improperly handled. Try to find a used one. Because there are a few conversions to carbs you may be able to find a used one at a fair price.

[FABombjoy]

I have one that I backfilled with windowweld urethane that I would sell for a reasonable price. I used it on my BAE-like turbo setup as those kits can subject that piece to extra stresses. This one will not tear! :D PM if interested