Starter problem

[Michael]

I have had this happen twice in the last week, 4 times total in the last 2.5 years, so I guess it's getting more pronounced.

I go to start my car, and all the lights, electrical(including fans if the engine is still hot) everything works except the starter. It happened a few days ago when I was moving the car out of the garage, I tapped the starter and it started fine, until tonight. I ran into the store and when I got back to the car same problem. I got my torque bar out of the bonnet to tap the starter again, but tried it once more before getting under the car and it started, just lucky I guess. I thought about the inertia switch, but that only cuts power to the fuel pump, not the starter right?

Now I have been aware of this for over a year, but this marks the 4th time it's happened since I have owned the car, so not really a big problem, but something I want to fix. When it happened in the garage, I knew this was my chance to maybe narrow it down, and I tried everything, moved the gear selector in neutral, moved the wire bundle around to the ignition switch, only when I tapped the starter did it fire up.

So starter time?

[sean]

Before you order that starter, make double sure the starter circuit modification (http://www.dmcnews.com/bulletins/ST-05-2.82.html) has been done. I see your vin falls outside the range but I've seen vins around yours that have yet to have the mod done.

[stevedmc]

Autozone can test your starter for free and tell you if it is good or bad. You can install a 1991 Eagle Premier starter if you are interested in cross reference parts. I believe they are $99 at Autozone and come with a lifetime warranty.

I would do a few other things before replacing the starter though. First there is a wiring update that needs to be done if you are driving an early 81. Information for the update was on the old forum but I'm not sure if it is on the new forum. Hopefully someone can chime in with this information.

Also, the starter pulls 12v from the same 12v wire that is going into your AC blower circuit breaker. Make sure the starter wire is not connected to the protected side of your circuit breaker. I believe the circuit breaker is 25a (30a if it has been updated) and the starter needs more than 30a to start. Now would be a good time to update this circuit breaker if you haven't already done so.

Another thing to replace is the starter relay. This part costs about $10 and is part # 19861 at Autozone (lifetime warranty). You could have a bad relay causing the problem and for just $10 it doesnt hurt to swap it out.

I would check the wiring and replace the relay first. It will only cost you a few dollars to do this. Oh, you should also get your battery tested as well. This is another free test they can do at most parts stores as well.

Edit: Sean beat me with the wiring update.

[sdg3205]

any clicks? sounds? or is it just dead/no response?

[Michael]

Mine being a refurb, I figured all the recalls have been addressed, but upon reading the bulletin, I don't remember hearing the relay click(it stated that you should hear that), and I was listening for a starter click so I should have picked up on a relay clicking. Sooooo maybe it's not a starter itself, as power may not be reaching the relay....but then again I would have to have the problem repeat itself before I could be sure.

I hate intermittent problems.



EDIT...lots of relpies since I read Sean's post. Thanks Steve for the info on the starter relay, that sounds like an excellent place to start. I will get one tomorrow(especially since I don't remember hearing the relay) and see it the problem repeats itself, may be 6 days or 6 months. Fortunately it has never stranded me, always just an inconvience so far.

[sean]

Mine being a refurb, I figured all the recalls have been addressed, .

HA!.....Sorry just thinking about Wilson. Anyway, I wouldn't make any assumptions about what was included in your refurb.

[stevedmc]

I will get one tomorrow(especially since I don't remember hearing the relay) and see it the problem repeats itself, may be 6 days or 6 months. Fortunately it has never stranded me, always just an inconvience so far.

Check and make sure the 12v wire from the starter relay is connected to the unprotected side of the circuit breaker as well. A new relay won't do you any good if the starter can't get more than 30amps.

Some good reading can be found here:

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?282-Electrical-System-Question&highlight=find+steve

[Rich]

I I got my torque bar out of the bonnet to tap the starter again, but tried it once more before getting under the car


All good stuff here so far.

Recommend you lose the torque bar "assist tool" in favor of something less conductive, like a broomstick, until you sort this out properly.

Better yet, sort it out first.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Check and make sure the 12v wire from the starter relay is connected to the unprotected side of the circuit breaker as well. A new relay won't do you any good if the starter can't get more than 30amps.

Some good reading can be found here:

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?282-Electrical-System-Question&highlight=find+steve

The starter relay powers the starter solenoid and that takes 10 to 20 amps. But it is good to make sure the wire is not on the "load" side of the breaker. If you start the car with the blower motor on it will pop the breaker if not wired correctly. But even with it off those breakers may be intermittent.

If you were to stall the car in traffic, you would not remember to turn off the blower before trying to restart the car.

[David T]

Typically if "tapping" the starter gets you going it means the brushes are worn out or sticking. Time to get the starter out and take it apart. All it may need is a good cleaning and a set of brushes. Was the car ever in deep water? I have sen this happen to other makes after going through deep water.
David Teitelbaum

[Michael]

Reviving this old thread for an update...an unlikely update. I misdiagnosed the starter as the problem. I had this problem begin to occur about every 5-6 starts...so it's becoming much more common. The last time it happened, I tapped on the starter and sure enough it started, but I believe this was just a coincidence. I put a new starter on the car, but the problem was still there, the only difference is now I can hear the solenoid click. I knew it was not the inhibit relay itself and not the neutral safety switch. I could cycle the key 2-6 times and get the starter to work. I called Dave and of course they said they would send me a new starter and even he agreed the update had most likely been done but before they got it out, I put a multimeter on the solenoid and everytime the starter failed to engage I would show 6v. When it did show 6v, with the key held in start position, I could jump from the boost terminal and sure enough it would engage everytime....sounding much less like a faulty starter and very very similar to the problem caused by the factory starter circuit wiring. I called DMCMW back and told them to hold off on that starter for now.

Today after some trial and error I was still getting 12v give or take at the relay junction so I decided to pull the relay strip and just see if the update had been done. SURELY it had right? After all this was 5609, well out of the range of the problem...furthermore it was a remanufactured car...so double sure the update had been done right?

WRONG! I looked at the wiring and the Y/W jumper was right there where it wasn't supposed to be, and no trace of a jumper going to the circuit breaker has been found. So I think I have finally found the culprit of this annoying problem...and it only took all of you telling me over and over to check it before replacing the starter. :mallet: One thing positive from this.... the new reduction starter DMC is now using sure sounds cool cranking up. I bet if I put a jump box on the car it will start everytime. My battery is showing 12.1v at the terminals so it's a bit low.

Anyway, I am off to do the update.

[Bitsyncmaster]

That's good info that your later vin car still needed the update. I wonder how many other vins above the stated number still need it?

[Michael]

That's good info that your later vin car still needed the update. I wonder how many other vins above the stated number still need it?

My guess is that when my car was new, the fix was in place, but when it was rebuilt by DMCH, they just used NOS parts off the shelf/box and probably used the relay strip (prewired?) or wired it according to diagrams that may or may not be out of date, so there really was no vin cutoffs as far as remans go.

[Michael]

And it's fixed...which took longer than expected. The circuit breakers for the blower motor and aux. fans were reversed from their normal locations. Took me about 30 minutes to figure that one out, thanks DMCH.

[Ron]

:banghead:

[NightFlyer]

I believe I'm still running the original circuit in my car, as everything in my relay/fuse compartment is stock/OEM, other than the LockZilla, RemoteZilla, and FanZilla that I added. Haven't had the kind of problem that Michael describes ever happen to me though. Should I consider myself lucky? What exactly is the problem with the original circuit that it doesn't always push enough power to the starter?

[Ron]

They supplied power for load and trigger on the same wire from the ignition switch to the relay...too much voltage drop when the battery is a little weak. The mod gets the supply for the load from the fan speed breaker instead.

[NightFlyer]

Gotcha - thanks Ron! :thumbup: