Diagnose This Problem...Key Settings

[Ryan King]

Hey Everyone

Okay. So here is my new problem that needs diagnosing.

When I put the key into the car and turn it to setting/position #1, the fuel pump primes, which, it didn't used to. Radio turns on, power antenna goes up, etc.

Turn the key to setting #2, nothing happens, this SHOULD be what key setting #1 is doing. Normally, from what I remember, you turn it to position 1 and nothing really happens, except minimal power to some things. Position 2 allowed you to do much more. Now these two settings are almost backwards.

Then start the car. Now once the car is running, I turn the key back to setting #2, car till runs, nothing happens. Its not until the key is turned to setting #1, that it shuts off.

I have posted a video below. So. Any ideas!?!?! I am stumped. I tried a brand new key thinking maybe it was the tumblers, but thats not it.

-Ryan


http://youtu.be/x_DccM7BOVc
http://youtu.be/x_DccM7BOVc

[NightFlyer]

WOW - that one has me completely baffled, and I'm admittedly not a very proficient electrical guy.

I'll be curious to see what this ends up being.

[Ron]

I'd guess your switch has an internal short between the accessory and run section. Or maybe, something was recently added/repaired/cleaned/etc. that uses both sections and a boo boo was made ;-)

[DMCMW Dave]

Have you recently been screwing with the wiring to the two large Main Relays under the deck in the back and swapped the trigger wiring (small white and white/blue). This would make the relays swap function.

[NightFlyer]

Have you recently been screwing with the wiring to the two large Main Relays under the deck in the back and swapped the trigger wiring (small white and white/blue). This would make the relays swap function.

That's what I was suspecting - relays swapped function some how / for some reason.

[TTait]

Have you recently been screwing with the wiring to the two large Main Relays under the deck in the back and swapped the trigger wiring (small white and white/blue). This would make the relays swap function.

I'm pretty sure you nailed it - I was on the phone with Ryan last night when he was having a no start problem, and he was adjusting things at the resistor...

[Ryan King]

Have you recently been screwing with the wiring to the two large Main Relays under the deck in the back and swapped the trigger wiring (small white and white/blue). This would make the relays swap function.

Does anyone have a photo that shows the correct wiring at the Ballast resistor?

Also. Toby at DMCNW suggested it could be a faulty AUX relay or a problem with the ignition switch. Those switches are 140 dollars, so hopefully it's one of the other suggestions.

[DMCMW Dave]

Does anyone have a photo that shows the correct wiring at the Ballast resistor?

Try these:

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[Ron]

Resistor Wiring in Resources (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?40-All-Wiring-Schematics&p=66530&viewfull=1#post66530)

[Ryan King]

I am at work right now, but I was able to go outside and snap a picture. This is my current set up. Thoughts?

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[Ron]

Looks OK.
Measure the voltage going to the coil (+) terminal. Should be:
Off - 0.0 V
On/Run- ~8V
Cranking- ~12V

[Ryan King]

Looks OK.
Measure the voltage going to the coil (+) terminal. Should be:
Off - 0.0 V
On/Run- ~8V
Cranking- ~12V

Okay. So.I don't know if we are checking this correctly.
We are using the volt meter at this setting -
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We were placing the connectors on the Ignition Coil itself. Couldn't tell which post is which (+ or -). We also tried using the engine ground itself with the meter, and trying the meter's positive feed on either post.
The most voltage I got was this -

Off - 0.0v
On/Run - ~2.45v
Cranking - ~Unsure
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Not sure if we are testing this correctly. We tried getting readings on all the key positions and couldn't get more then whats listed above. It seems like the dash lights and the pump primes even before the key clicks into position 1. I am starting to lean more and more towards a bad ignition switch...but I want to be sure before I spend that much money.

From what I have seen it seems like this is the original ignition switch. I don't know how common it is for these to go out.
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Are we doing this right!?!

[dmc6960]

This is easy to check since your ignition switch is exposed. I believe the brown 12V line is the one going into the middle of the switch, its covered in some black heat shrink in whats visible in the picture. The three other wires are your primary lines. The Green with white stripe represents key position I, the aux relay. Jump this momentarily and your radio should turn on. The white wire represents the position II, the run position. Jump this one and the fuel pump should prime, tach jump to 0, etc. The white with red strip is your starter circuit. Jump this one and it should engage your starter. Check each one of these individually and if they do not behave as they should then other wiring in the car is amiss. Go back and fix it. If everything works as it should this way, then perhaps the ignition switch is bad, but my money is in other wiring in the car.

[hmcelraft]

See item 2

http://store.delorean.com/c-280-3-4-1-ignition-components.aspx

[Ron]

Yes, the pic shows the meter with the correct setup.
Connect the Black meter wire to the engine, or other good ground, and the Red meter wire to the coil (+) terminal -- It should be marked with a tiny "+" and have a White/Yellow (W/Y) wire connected to it. This is the same W/Y wire that connects to the Resistor terminal circled in the pic below, the coil feed wire.
You can do the test easier by putting the Red meter wire there instead to tell if everything from the Switch to the Resistor are correct (using the chart above), but this omits checking the W/Y wire. (If it fails, remove the W/Y wire and retest.)

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Do Jim's (dmc6960) tests too and report back...keep in mind that everything the switch turns on in position I should also be turned on in position II. This is why Dave's suggestion also makes a lot of sense to me. But, the switch turning things on before it is in position (not allowing for slop/age/etc.) points to it.

Have you told us everything that has been worked on/disturbed recently?

[DMCMW Dave]

I'm not sure why you are focused on the ballast resistors. They cannot cause the original complaint ("run" and "accessory" being reversed).

[Jonathan]

Any chance your key is actually in the "position 2" spot when you think it is in the "position 1" spot? In your video, it seemed to me like you went a bit past the position 1 spot initially. I couldn't make it out super clearly, but is the orientation of the key in this "position 1" vertical as opposed to still slightly on an angle back?

Perhaps you could reshoot a video or still photos even of the key in each position but with your hand removed and the camera zoomed in on the end of the ignition switch? Someone mentioned earlier about it potentially being "sloppy" and that's what got me thinking there is some confusion around key positions.

It was mentioned to me recently also that there is no definitive logic behind the fuel pump priming or not priming so taking that out of the equation might let you focus in on the problem a bit more.

[Ron]

I'm not sure why you are focused on the ballast resistors. They cannot cause the original complaint ("run" and "accessory" being reversed).I'm wondering if they can be "reversed" since the switch is supposed to energize either one or both aux relays. Note the vid shows the warning lights on in position I (as it should)... They are clipped off when showing II, so ??.
Since he was messing with the resistor over a no start problem originally and gets 2.5V at the coil somehow now, it seems best case is to straighten that out since it is an easy test and move on. :hmm:?
Then, assuming the relay trigger wires checked out before, maybe turn something like the AC on and see if the clutch kicks in and out when switching from I and II for an easy test?

[Ryan King]

Any chance your key is actually in the "position 2" spot when you think it is in the "position 1" spot? In your video, it seemed to me like you went a bit past the position 1 spot initially. I couldn't make it out super clearly, but is the orientation of the key in this "position 1" vertical as opposed to still slightly on an angle back?

Perhaps you could reshoot a video or still photos even of the key in each position but with your hand removed and the camera zoomed in on the end of the ignition switch? Someone mentioned earlier about it potentially being "sloppy" and that's what got me thinking there is some confusion around key positions.

It was mentioned to me recently also that there is no definitive logic behind the fuel pump priming or not priming so taking that out of the equation might let you focus in on the problem a bit more.

I will take a better video tonight. It seems to me the lock or switch is very sloppy. Il take a better video.

[Ryan King]

I have uploaded a better video showing my Key in the ignition. It appears to me that the ignition switch is sloppy. But I don't have any other DeLoreans to compare it to.

I am thinking about removing the switch and testing the lock cylinder to make sure that isn't the culprit. Tonight when I get home it was actually working normal, which was appalling, then I went to make sure again and it was back to acting up. So I think I have the problem narrowed down to the Ignition Switch or Lock Cylinder.

I think this has been going out now for some time...but please refer to the video and let me know if this is a common DeLorean thing, or does it appear to that mine is loose and sloppy.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdI9hqXV77s&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdI9hqXV77s&feature=youtu.be

[ALEXAKOS]

Ahhhh its busted!
Buy another Delorean that works:)

[JohnZ]

Buy another Delorean that works:)

You have to find it!

:tongue_stick:

Anyway I never really paid attention to the feeling that I get when I turn the key on my D, but I recall it being a very firm mechanism.

[Jonathan]

Have a look at this video I made and see if it helps explain for you what is going on inside the switch.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRVIZO9m1RE&feature=youtu.be

I don't exactly make a lot of videos, so no, I don't think Tarantino is calling in the morning either ;)

Excuse the silly title and intro as I didn't think Joe Internet searching for DeLoreans needed to see this video tagged as "DeLorean ignition switch disassembly."

Let me know how you're doing with figuring your car's problems out.

[Ryan King]

Have a look at this video I made and see if it helps explain for you what is going on inside the switch.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRVIZO9m1RE&feature=youtu.be

I don't exactly make a lot of videos, so no, I don't think Tarantino is calling in the morning either ;)

Excuse the silly title and intro as I didn't think Joe Internet searching for DeLoreans needed to see this video tagged as "DeLorean ignition switch disassembly."

Let me know how you're doing with figuring your car's problems out.

Jonathan, thank you so much for making that video. It reaffirms my beliefs that the switch is what is my problem...so that switch in the video, is that an extra you want to sell me?? :D

I am going to pull mine out this weekend for inspection.

[Jonathan]

Jonathan, thank you so much for making that video. It reaffirms my beliefs that the switch is what is my problem...so that switch in the video, is that an extra you want to sell me?? :D

I am going to pull mine out this weekend for inspection.

Hey, no problem, Ryan. I can make that switch available to you if you need it. Let us know what you find if you get in there this weekend and look around (especially if it turns out to be the electrical end of the switch that's the issue).

[Ryan King]

So I installed a new Ignition Switch....140 dollars later...nothing. Didn't fix the problem. Still having the same exact issue.

So...

Suggestions...?

And here is the full story, which I really didnt tell.
I was driving through an intersection and the car just shuts off. Dies. It wouldnt start again no matter what I tried. It turned out that wire on the right hand side of the resistor had popped loose. Plugging that in fixed my starting issue, but the key problem is still around. So I am at a loss. I cant figure this thing out for the life of me.

I wonder if something else got knocked loose along with the wire that went to the resistor. Here is a photo of some plugs. I know the Red/Purple is for my Dwell Meter, I know the Green Green/White is a Manual Transmission thing...but what is the Blue/Black plug go to? I also replace the Relay next to the resistor and the problem is the same.
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[Ryan King]

Could my problem be one of these relays..?
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[TTait]

So I installed a new Ignition Switch....140 dollars later...nothing. Didn't fix the problem. Still having the same exact issue.

So...

Suggestions...?

And here is the full story, which I really didnt tell.
I was driving through an intersection and the car just shuts off. Dies. It wouldnt start again no matter what I tried. It turned out that wire on the right hand side of the resistor had popped loose. Plugging that in fixed my starting issue, but the key problem is still around. So I am at a loss. I cant figure this thing out for the life of me.

I wonder if something else got knocked loose along with the wire that went to the resistor. Here is a photo of some plugs. I know the Red/Purple is for my Dwell Meter, I know the Green Green/White is a Manual Transmission thing...but what is the Blue/Black plug go to? I also replace the Relay next to the resistor and the problem is the same.
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Before the car died, did the switch operate properly?

While the car was dead, what happened when you turned the key to accessory? What happened when you turned it to run? To Start?

Which wire popped loose?

Are you sure that wire was connected previously?

Have you found or ever noticed wiring mods by previous owners?

[Jonathan]

The dying in the middle of the intersection part makes me think it's the double connection on your ballast resistor. Mostly because mine popped/melted itself off the first year I had my car and I got familiar with it.

You could have other problems too, but let’s try to figure out one at a time.

I assume you meant the wire popping off the resistor was the yellow connector one on the top right? It also looks like it might have suffered some heat damage. Up the length of that wire a little bit is where it is spliced together with another wire. While this may technically be the same connection on a diagram, I am wondering if it is sending too much current (heat) through too small a piece of metal/wire and it’s creating the excess heat?

What you find on most cars is a double metal connector like the one in this photo.

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It snugs over the connector on the resistor and then each wire individually connects to that connector. It looks like one of your white wires got shortened and this may be why it was spliced together. I would suggest connecting it with a double connector and ruling out the possible extra heat that might be getting generated from the splice and leading to the wire popping off.

This is what mine looks like now, after correcting the PO set-up.

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[Ryan King]

Where does that white wire go? The top right of the resistor where mine has been spliced together?

[Ryan King]

So I went into the car's relay compartment today and wiggled around some wires, especially the ones that go to the metal AUX relays...and now the car is working again. :)
I don't know what I did, I just unplugged and replugged in some wires in both the relay compartment, and the wires in the engine bay and in the bulk head connector....now it works...no idea what I did.

[NightFlyer]

So I went into the car's relay compartment today and wiggled around some wires, especially the ones that go to the metal AUX relays...and now the car is working again. :)
I don't know what I did, I just unplugged and replugged in some wires in both the relay compartment, and the wires in the engine bay and in the bulk head connector....now it works...no idea what I did.

SWEET - simple solutions are the best solutions. :thumbup:

Too bad you didn't do that first....