Joe Cool, Bitsyncmaster upgrades, Toby Cooling Fans

[GS450-Junkie]

Thinking of doing some upgrades on my cooling fans....

Bought a Joe Cool unit from DMCMW a couple years back but haven't installed it yet. If I recall, it will sequence the fans to come on individually one at a time so that it reduces the load a bit opposed to throwing all that power at once when the fans kick on.

Considered buying Bitsyncmaster's 2 fan relay upgrades which #1... Fan Fail will give you an indication of fans not working. Also fuses each fan.
#2...Fan Relay keeps fans running when AC is cycling.

I understand that I cannot run the Joe Cool in addition to Bitsyncmater's options at the same time since they use the same sockets, so it's one or the other.


What is the best option? Throw Toby's upgraded Fans into the mix, I'm not sure I need the Joe Cool unit anymore since they draw less power anyway. Or am I wrong?
What is the best way to look at this?

Also....recently someone told me that Toby's fans can actually be purchased from Jegs. Can someone verify that? Or...did Toby have them custom made for the DeLorean? Just found that to be kinda interesting.

Thanks....

[TTait]

This is not directed at you - its a general statement of belief.

While not a direct response to your questions, IMO Toby fans cannot be purchased elsewhere. Toby is a dedicated vendor who thoroughly tests and vets his products for Delorean community. He answers emails at all hours and has been doing this for years for this car and for this community. Jegs, or others do not.

I think its fine to come on here and say that you are testing and using fans from a 96 Studebaker and they seem great. We all have our reputations to bank on. The recent thread on brake upgrades is a perfect example of that. I do not think is reasonable to come here and say what someone else has engineered on their behalf without their nod. You may not have the details, and you don't have their permission. If you are right, its still ethically challenging. If you have any of the details wrong - you are misrepresenting the facts and could damage their reputation.

Fans are fans. Right? You want fans, go to any radiator shop and have them figure something out. You will get what you get, but you won't get Toby Fans. If you want fans that have been tested and have the benefit of his experience, buy them from him. He has a mortgage too.

I am a Toby Fan. Add to that Josh, the Wynns, Rob, Ed, Dave, Danny, Martin, and many others.

[GS450-Junkie]

Umm....ok, anyone else?

[hmcelraft]

If you have OEM fans I can't believe they are still working without some update. What's wrong with just putting in the Joe Cool and see what happens? Improvement? If needed? etc.-------

[NightFlyer]

Thinking of doing some upgrades on my cooling fans....

Bought a Joe Cool unit from DMCMW a couple years back but haven't installed it yet. If I recall, it will sequence the fans to come on individually one at a time so that it reduces the load a bit opposed to throwing all that power at once when the fans kick on.

Considered buying Bitsyncmaster's 2 fan relay upgrades which #1... Fan Fail will give you an indication of fans not working. Also fuses each fan.
#2...Fan Relay keeps fans running when AC is cycling.

I understand that I cannot run the Joe Cool in addition to Bitsyncmater's options at the same time since they use the same sockets, so it's one or the other.


What is the best option? Throw Toby's upgraded Fans into the mix, I'm not sure I need the Joe Cool unit anymore since they draw less power anyway. Or am I wrong?
What is the best way to look at this?

Also....recently someone told me that Toby's fans can actually be purchased from Jegs. Can someone verify that? Or...did Toby have them custom made for the DeLorean? Just found that to be kinda interesting.

Thanks....

Even with the reduced amperage of Toby's fans, there would still be a significant draw of activation energy stressing the circuit if you're not at least staggering the activation of the fans. It's the load/draw of the activation energy that caused a problem with the original circuit design, and not so much the sustained use load on the circuit (although sustained load on the circuit does cause heat, which isn't good for the other things in the relay/fuse compartment).

Both are an effective solution to the flaws in the original circuit design. As you already have the Joe Cool, may as well keep and use the Joe Cool.

But it's up to you.

[Bitsyncmaster]

I'm pretty sure Toby's fans have a custom machined mounting ring to make them plug and play. My guess it the fan blades are also custom sized to fit in the OEM shroud.

[BABIS]

I'm pretty sure Toby's fans have a custom machined mounting ring to make them plug and play. My guess it the fan blades are also custom sized to fit in the OEM shroud.

a detail of Toby's fans installed on my original shroud ;)

26645

[GS450-Junkie]

Even with the reduced amperage of Toby's fans, there would still be a significant draw of activation energy stressing the circuit if you're not at least staggering the activation of the fans. It's the load/draw of the activation energy that caused a problem with the original circuit design, and not so much the sustained use load on the circuit (although sustained load on the circuit does cause heat, which isn't good for the other things in the relay/fuse compartment).

Both are an effective solution to the flaws in the original circuit design. As you already have the Joe Cool, may as well keep and use the Joe Cool.

But it's up to you.

Hey thanks!

[GS450-Junkie]

a detail of Toby's fans installed on my original shroud ;)

26645

Here is the picture of the fans from Jegs (Illegibly). Interesting picture you have of Toby's fans. That is a pretty tight tolerance on the shroud no doubt!



I do not think is reasonable to come here and say what someone else has engineered on their behalf without their nod.
I wasn't here to argue either way...honestly it doesn't matter to me where Toby got his fans. I must say the blades do look similar. Maybe he was able to find them through Jegs and alter them and add the wiring as needed for our community. And if that was the case, mad props to him because he saved us a lot of work. Like I said...I don't really care, I was just repeating something I had heard from another DeLorean owner I had the pleasure of meeting this past week. He's not on this forum, and just wanted to pass along that Jegs might be an option for those who don't know about it. He did tell me the price he paid from Jegs, and it is a cheaper route vs. Toby's, but like I said if Toby has added the electrical setup into the equation ahead of time then it's probably worth not having the headache and I would just buy his anyway. He does afterall have a mortgage. :wiggle:


My main concern here was to discuss the relay vs. Joe Cool upgrade issue and I think I got my answer I needed. I do look forward to some upgrades from Bitsyncmaster this spring. I hope to get an order in with him soon...always heard good things about his unique products. Damn.... now I'll be paying his mortgage too. :frantic: Seems like with this car I pay on everyone else's mortgage and not my own!!!!!

[DCUK Martin]

In my opinion, there's a lot of misinformation about the original fans.

There are two main problems with the original system as designed, both centred around the fan-fail module. That's a POS that needs to be binned, and the service bulletin to replace with two jumper wires is also prone to failure because of dirty connections. it's the same reason why so many fuse boxes get melted.

It's the quality of the terminals and simple age which causes most problems. It's easy to replace the sockets with brass terminals which don't tarnish and consequently won't get resistive and generate heat. I measured the fans on #1458 at 8A continuous with both running. Startup current, though higher, isn't usually enough to cause heat problems because it's a transient.

That the DeLorean AC system brings the fans in with the compressor can cause problems if you're low on refrigerant, and the "fan sequencing" was originally billed as a fix for this, so the compressor and each fan come in at different times - but the simple fix is to ensure your refrigerant isn't low and/or make it work like any modern car and run the fans permanently with AC:

http://dmcnews.com/Techsection/coolfan.htm (I see a familiar name or two attached to that mod!)

The original fan motors are pretty efficient and our knowledge of aerodynamics hasn't changed much in the past 50 years so I'd be surprised if the original fans were considerably less efficient than was possible. Stating CFM figures is only part of the story because without pressure, you can't tell how good they are as pressure is what's required to pull air through the radiator.

One thing's for certain; the shroud is essential to efficient air flow. Get rid of that or have larger tip clearanes and those impellers will be considerably worse.

One of the mods I'm currently doing to the Australian turbo car is to wire the fans up like many modern cars: Through the use of 3 relays and an extra wire to the fans, you can run them in series at low(er) temperatures, and in parallel at high temperatures. Of course it helps to have an engine management system with spare auxiliary outputs (though it can be done with two otterstats at two temperatures).

[Bitsyncmaster]

measured the fans on #1458 at 8A continuous with both running.

That is way off from what I measured. I got on each fan:

OEM Radiator on fan inlet
Volts amps ft/min
10 9.9 780
11 11.5 890
12 13.2 960
13 14.7 1020
14 16.1 1130

And it gets worse when the AC condenser is added to further restrict the air flow.

[DCUK Martin]

Sorry but something doesn't add up there, the greater the restriction, the LESS the power requirements. As I said, flow rate tells you only half the story without pressure. It's like measuring electrical power in voltage and ignoring current.

Yes, this is counter-intuitive but for an analogous system, measure the current draw of your vacuum cleaner with normal flow and when blocked. You'll find it falls.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Sorry but something doesn't add up there, the greater the restriction, the LESS the power requirements. As I said, flow rate tells you only half the story without pressure. It's like measuring electrical power in voltage and ignoring current.

Yes, this is counter-intuitive but for an analogous system, measure the current draw of your vacuum cleaner with normal flow and when blocked. You'll find it falls.

That's what I thought also but Elvis got me to test with and without radiator. Current goes up when restricted.

[DCUK Martin]

That is very interesting and I can only suggest that those blades are tuned specifically for the pressure drop generated with a rad in front.

I'll see what I can find out this week.

[Bitsyncmaster]

That is very interesting and I can only suggest that those blades are tuned specifically for the pressure drop generated with a rad in front.

I'll see what I can find out this week.

I would love to see someone else do current measurements.

Engine must be running to get normal voltage on the fans. Check the voltage on the fans to see if the voltage drop is normal (harness and connectors). Your current meter has to use heavy gauge wires or you will get a large voltage drop over the wires and meter shunt. Would be better to use a clamp type current meter to prevent that voltage drop of the test circuit.

[NightFlyer]

I would love to see someone else do current measurements.

Engine must be running to get normal voltage on the fans. Check the voltage on the fans to see if the voltage drop is normal (harness and connectors). Your current meter has to use heavy gauge wires or you will get a large voltage drop over the wires and meter shunt. Would be better to use a clamp type current meter to prevent that voltage drop of the test circuit.

I'll test mine when I'm ready to fire up the engine for the year - have some things I want to get done first before firing the engine for the season though. Probably in a couple weeks.