R12 compatible refrigerants

[DMC3165]

Before I even start this I know the right thing to do is evacuate and convert the system to r-134. But as a matter of cost I'm looking at trying to find a compatible refrigant with R12. I've recently learned of this:

www.duracool.com

Which I never heard of before. Anyone have any experience with this? Or can anyone recommend any other R12 substitutes they've tried and had luck with.

[Bitsyncmaster]

I think all the XXa products are propane.

[NightFlyer]

12a products, such as duracool, are hydrocarbon blends, typically propane and butane. I personally see nothing wrong with running a 12a product, and will be doing so on my car in the near future (by next month), but others are concerned about the flammability of the product, never mind that R-134a is just as flammable, and not to mention carcinogenic, which 12a products are not.

12a products can be used with either type of system oil. And while you can mix 12a in with existing R-12 without issue, I personally recommend that the system be flushed, vacuumed, and re-oiled anyway, as the head pressure of 12a is lower than R-12, thus your system will operate much more efficiently with a single product in it.

Another issue with 12a products is that they're illegal to use in automotive application in the US, however, there's currently no enforcement mechanism, so if you do use it, you're not going to get in trouble, even though you'll technically be breaking the law. Many A/C shops will also refuse to service your vehicle if you use a 12a product, if that's a concern for you at all.

But, if plan on doing all your own A/C work, then I personally say use it. It will perform better and more efficiently in your stock R-12 system than converting to R-134a will. Not to mention that it's usually significantly cheaper than R-12 and marginally cheaper than R-134a, and because of the lower head pressure, you use less of it to obtain a full charge in your system and your system will cycle less frequently when using the A/C.

Note that 12a products are usually packaged in containers that use/require a R-134a tap. Thus, you can either change your service fittings to R-134a fittings OR you can obtain or make your own R-134a tap to R-12 service fitting hoses.

Best of luck :thumbup:

[refugeefromcalif]

Before I even start this I know the right thing to do is evacuate and convert the system to r-134. But as a matter of cost I'm looking at trying to find a compatible refrigant with R12. I've recently learned of this:

www.duracool.com

Which I never heard of before. Anyone have any experience with this? Or can anyone recommend any other R12 substitutes they've tried and had luck with.

As I read your post, it seems that $$$ is the reason that you want to get away from R-12. What is the condition of your A/C system now?
Does it run? Runs, but not cooling like it used too?


12a products can be used with either type of system oil. And while you can mix 12a in with existing R-12 without issue, I personally recommend that the system be flushed, vacuumed, and re-oiled anyway, as the head pressure of 12a is lower than R-12, thus your system will operate much more efficiently with a single product in it.

I bought a couple cans of Enviro 12 just recently. (An R-12a product), it specifically states, it's NOT to be used with, or added to an R-12 system.


Another issue with 12a products is that they're illegal to use in automotive application in the US, however, there's currently no enforcement mechanism, so if you do use it, you're not going to get in trouble, even though you'll technically be breaking the law. Many A/C shops will also refuse to service your vehicle if you use a 12a product, if that's a concern for you at all.

Funny, This past week I paid my local mechanic to re-charge my R-12 system using the freon that I supplied.
Before this, I'd called around town and found an auto parts store that had Many cans of Enviro 12 for sale. After reading the can and finding out that I couldn't add it to my R-12. I shelved it for now and found some R-12 on eBay.


But, if plan on doing all your own A/C work, then I personally say use it. It will perform better and more efficiently in your stock R-12 system than converting to R-134a will. Not to mention that it's usually significantly cheaper than R-12 and marginally cheaper than R-134a, and because of the lower head pressure, you use less of it to obtain a full charge in your system and your system will cycle less frequently when using the A/C.

Note that 12a products are usually packaged in containers that use/require a R-134a tap. Thus, you can either change your service fittings to R-134a fittings OR you can obtain or make your own R-134a tap to R-12 service fitting hoses.

Best of luck :thumbup:

I agree, Best of Luck with whatever option you go with!

George

[DeLorean03]

I used to use this:

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=2010&d=1309557868




Why don't I anymore? With the recent engine conversion, Eddie converted my car to R134A.

[NightFlyer]

I bought a couple cans of Enviro 12 just recently. (An R-12a product), it specifically states, it's NOT to be used with, or added to an R-12 system.

That's interesting - it's either something specific to the exact blend of the Enviro 12 which makes it so that it shouldn't be added to existing R-12, OR (and this is what I'm suspecting is the case) it simply states this as a legal formality because of its status as being illegal for use in automotive applications here in the US, even though mixing it with R-12 won't have any adverse effects.

Check the type of oil that they recommend using - if it's mineral oil or if both types of oil can be used, then it's more than likely OK to use with R-12.

But yes, follow the warnings on the can.

As I'm genuinely curious now, I can't find a product specifically called 'Enviro 12' using a Google search. Can you post a pic of the can label, front and back, if it's not too much trouble?

[NightFlyer]

I used to use this:

Why don't I anymore? With the recent engine conversion, Eddie converted my car to R134A.

And if I recall correctly, you reported good results with the Enviro-Safe, correct?

Interesting that the Enviro-Safe bills itself as an R-134a replacement - I wonder if that signifies a different blend than a typical 12a product.

For reference purposes, this is what I'll be using in my system when I get around to working on it next month:

Frosty Cool 12a

http://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/server5000/f9a0c/products/100/images/301/frostycool_12a_Refrigerant_500x500x400dpi__45767.1 372224920.220.220.jpg?c=1

I'll be sure to start a thread and report my results upon completion and testing of this job :smile:

[DeLorean03]

All I know, it seemed to work for me just fine. It wasn't snowing in the car or anything, but I at least didn't need to bring a second shirt to change into when I got to my destination anymore :yesss:

[refugeefromcalif]

Before I even start this I know the right thing to do is evacuate and convert the system to r-134. But as a matter of cost I'm looking at trying to find a compatible refrigant with R12. I've recently learned of this:

www.duracool.com

Which I never heard of before. Anyone have any experience with this? Or can anyone recommend any other R12 substitutes they've tried and had luck with.


That's interesting - it's either something specific to the exact blend of the Enviro 12 which makes it so that it shouldn't be added to existing R-12, OR (and this is what I'm suspecting is the case) it simply states this as a legal formality because of its status as being illegal for use in automotive applications here in the US, even though mixing it with R-12 won't have any adverse effects.

Check the type of oil that they recommend using - if it's mineral oil or if both types of oil can be used, then it's more than likely OK to use with R-12.

But yes, follow the warnings on the can.

As I'm genuinely curious now, I can't find a product specifically called 'Enviro 12' using a Google search. Can you post a pic of the can label, front and back, if it's not too much trouble?

I've looked back at the can. I've mis quoted with the name. It is, Enviro -Safe.
Here's a pic of the directions that I also miss quoted.
It does say don't mix with other Refrigerents.

I'm sorry for my confusion. :paranoid:

George

[NightFlyer]

I've looked back at the can. I've mis quoted with the name. It is, Enviro -Safe.
Here's a pic of the directions that I also miss quoted.
It does say don't mix with other Refrigerents.

I'm sorry for my confusion. :paranoid:

George

George, George, George - you do know what this means, don't you? I'm afraid that the admins will now have to subject you to administrative punishment - 10 lashings with a leather whip, or 5 hits to the shins with a bamboo cane. Your choice :whip:

J/K :wave2:

Thanks for checking for me - I do appreciate it.

Enviro-Safe is a little weird in how it proclaims itself as an R134a replacement, as opposed to a 12a product. Comparing the MSDS for the R134a replacement to their actual 12a labeled product, you'll note that they're exactly the same. Plus in addition to 12a being illegal for use in automotive applications, it's also illegal to mix different types of refrigerants in automotive systems. So I'm definitely thinking that the warnings on the can are simply legal requirements. Thus, I'd personally say that it's completely safe to add to existing R-12, but as I'm not 100% certain (only 98.9% certain) I still advise that you follow the warnings on the can. And as I previously stated anyway, it's always a good idea to flush, vacuum, and replace with a singular product, no matter what refrigerant you choose, as that's the only way you'll ever achieve maximum efficiency with the refrigerant that you do choose to use.

So, there it is, for what it's worth.

[Michael]

I have read the Johnsons Freeze 12 was the preferred drop in replacement and I don't think it contains any propane. I was lucky enough to score 14 cans last fall. I don't know why I bought all he had, I just sensed that it would be hard to come by in the future and I thought it was better to have too much than not enough.
26668

[Bitsyncmaster]

Ive seen info on the internet that says it safe to mix R22 and R22a. But I would think using pure R22a or R12a would work better than a mixture.

[NightFlyer]

I have read the Johnsons Freeze 12 was the preferred drop in replacement and I don't think it contains any propane. I was lucky enough to score 14 cans last fall. I don't know why I bought all he had, I just sensed that it would be hard to come by in the future and I thought it was better to have too much than not enough.

According to the MSDS, Johnsons Freeze 12 is composed of 70% Tetrafluoroethane (aka R-134a) and 30% Difluoroethane (aka R-152a). It's a fluorohydrocarbon product (like R-12, R-134a, r-152a, etc) as opposed to a hydrocarbon product (like 12a). They stopped making it after Wisconsin (under Gov Doyle-D) banned its use and the fed EPA changed its regulation to include it in the Montreal Protocol phase out of ozone depleting chemicals. Interestingly enough, Wisconsin has since lifted its ban against its use (under Gov Walker-R). But unfortunately, the threat of state and federal action against the product was enough to discourage anyone from wanting to continue further producing and marketing it.

[Michael]

Turns out my senses were right then.

[NightFlyer]

Turns out my senses were right then.

Very wise you were :yoda:

[NightFlyer]

For the morbidly curious, I changed my mind and will not be using a 12a product. Instead, I'll be using R-152a, Difluoroethane. Or, more specifically, this:

http://images.highspeedbackbone.net/skuimages/large/Dust-off-dpsxl-main.jpg

[David T]

According to the MSDS, Johnsons Freeze 12 is composed of 70% Tetrafluoroethane (aka R-134a) and 30% Difluoroethane (aka R-152a). It's a fluorohydrocarbon product (like R-12, R-134a, r-152a, etc) as opposed to a hydrocarbon product (like 12a). They stopped making it after Wisconsin (under Gov Doyle-D) banned its use and the fed EPA changed its regulation to include it in the Montreal Protocol phase out of ozone depleting chemicals. Interestingly enough, Wisconsin has since lifted its ban against its use (under Gov Walker-R). But unfortunately, the threat of state and federal action against the product was enough to discourage anyone from wanting to continue further producing and marketing it.

As far as the Federal EPA is concerned, you cannot make any more R-12 and you cannot sell any new R-12. You CAN reuse existing stocks and no one is discouraging sales of small amounts of R-12 between private parties. There are MILLIONS of window A/C units and old refrigerators (and old cars) out there with millions of pounds of R-12, many still working. When they are junked the R-12 (if there is any in it) is removed and recycled. Recycled R-12 is available but it is expensive. The blended refrigerants have their own problems besides not being as efficient as R-12. As long as R-12 is available and not excessively expensive it is the best option. I have no idea what each State is doing but I doubt there is a whole lot of enforcement. Many times Laws are passed to make a political statement.

[NightFlyer]

Reasoning behind my charge of heart from 12a (propane/butane) to R-152a (Dust-Off / Ultra-Duster)

"They have considerably less global warming impact and better transport properties than R134a. However, in an automotive air conditioning set up, R152a and cyclo-propane (RC270) exhibit superiority as refrigerants when compared to R134a." (emphasis added)

"R152a and cyclopropane, when used as refrigerants in a direct A/C system (i.e. conventional system), have higher COPs than the R134a baseline system. At road load conditions, R152a and cyclopropane systems outperform the baseline by 11% and 9% respectively."

That's right - R-152a provides 11% better performance than R-134a, and 2% better than 12a hydrocarbon blends (propane/butane).

http://am.delphi.com/pdf/techpapers/1999-01-0874.PDF

And here's what KAIST, the Korea Advanced Institute of Science and Technology, had to say about R-152a:

"At the same compressor speed, R152a system with readjustment of an expansion valve showed better performance compared to R134a system:
- 20 ~ 41% higher cooling capacity
- 27 ~ 42% higher COP
- 33 ~ 48% lower evaporator pressure drop
- 6.4 ~ 10.8C higher discharge temperature"

http://www.sae.org/events/aars/presentations/2008/manhoekim.pdf

Note that the discharge temperature test measured the amount of heat that the refrigerants expelled from the testing apparatus - it is not vent temps. Thus higher is better. This directly corresponds with the SAE's conclusion that R-152a is 11% more efficient than R-134a.

Thus, it's exactly like I said - R-152a provides users with lower head pressure (which means less compressor cycling, which translates to less wear on system components and better fuel economy) and lower discharge temperatures.

Honestly, this is a no-brainer here, isn't it?

R-152a works nearly as well as R-12 and is 2% more efficient than 12a (propane/butane) products.

Case closed! :biggrin:

[David T]

Reasoning behind my charge of heart from 12a (propane/butane) to R-152a (Dust-Off / Ultra-Duster)

"They have considerably less global warming impact and better transport properties than R134a. However, in an automotive air conditioning set up, R152a and cyclo-propane (RC270) exhibit superiority as refrigerants when compared to R134a." (emphasis added)

"R152a and cyclopropane, when used as refrigerants in a direct A/C system (i.e. conventional system), have higher COPs than the R134a baseline system. At road load conditions, R152a and cyclopropane systems outperform the baseline by 11% and 9% respectively."

That's right - R-152a provides 11% better performance than R-134a, and 2% better than 12a hydrocarbon blends (propane/butane).

http://am.delphi.com/pdf/techpapers/1999-01-0874.PDF

And here's what KAIST, the Korea Advanced Institute of Science and Technology, had to say about R-152a:

"At the same compressor speed, R152a system with readjustment of an expansion valve showed better performance compared to R134a system:
- 20 ~ 41% higher cooling capacity
- 27 ~ 42% higher COP
- 33 ~ 48% lower evaporator pressure drop
- 6.4 ~ 10.8C higher discharge temperature"

http://www.sae.org/events/aars/presentations/2008/manhoekim.pdf

Note that the discharge temperature test measured the amount of heat that the refrigerants expelled from the testing apparatus - it is not vent temps. Thus higher is better. This directly corresponds with the SAE's conclusion that R-152a is 11% more efficient than R-134a.

Thus, it's exactly like I said - R-152a provides users with lower head pressure (which means less compressor cycling, which translates to less wear on system components and better fuel economy) and lower discharge temperatures.

Honestly, this is a no-brainer here, isn't it?

R-152a works nearly as well as R-12 and is 2% more efficient than 12a (propane/butane) products.

Case closed! :biggrin:

There are other important characteristics of a refrigerant besides raw efficiency. How it reacts with the metals of the system. How it works with the oil. How flammable it is and how toxic and under what conditions. Then there are the more esoteric things like how it acts at phase change, how well it wets the surfaces, how it reacts with moisture. If you want to experiment that is great but before you go promoting it for everyone you should at least do it yourself and see what happens over the long term. Ammonia is also a very good refrigerant but no one is using that anymore, do you know why?

[kings1527]

Just my own thoughts on this....

If you are doing your own AC work, I think sticking with R12 is the best way to go. That's what the system was designed for, the car's AC from day one was outstanding, and it's not prohibitively expensive since it only takes 2.2 lbs for a full charge. If your system is solid and doesn't leak, that 2.2 lbs should get you verrrrry far. If you're charging your system yourself, Craigslist or even eBay is a great option to pick up some R12 and a decent price.

If you're paying someone to do your system, then I can understand the cost factor. But it's still something to consider.

I've tightened up my system after putting in a parallel flow condenser as more of an experiment but I've been working a ton so it's been tough to finish up the project. But the performance of R12 is incredible and I'm expecting even better efficiency with that PF condenser.

[Michael]

LOL Josh...you didn't think for a minute your deviation from normal convention was going to be met here positively did you?

[NightFlyer]

LOL Josh...you didn't think for a minute your deviation from normal convention was going to be met here positively did you?

Yeah, should have known better... :wink:

[Michael]

Yeah, should have known better... :wink:

Anything other than talk approved parts or repairs and you will surely DIE.

[NightFlyer]

Just my own thoughts on this....

If you are doing your own AC work, I think sticking with R12 is the best way to go. That's what the system was designed for, the car's AC from day one was outstanding, and it's not prohibitively expensive since it only takes 2.2 lbs for a full charge. If your system is solid and doesn't leak, that 2.2 lbs should get you verrrrry far. If you're charging your system yourself, Craigslist or even eBay is a great option to pick up some R12 and a decent price.

If you're paying someone to do your system, then I can understand the cost factor. But it's still something to consider.

I've tightened up my system after putting in a parallel flow condenser as more of an experiment but I've been working a ton so it's been tough to finish up the project. But the performance of R12 is incredible and I'm expecting even better efficiency with that PF condenser.

My biggest reason for not using R-12: the government. EPA says that to purchase and handle the product in a lawful manner, I have to pay $20 and take an online open book exam (that discriminates against illiterate people) in order to receive a certification (big daddy government's blessing). Not gonna do it. Yeah, I could find a seller who only asks for a waiver, but the legality of those is currently undecided, not to mention that it's still an additional hoop to jump through. Again, not gonna do it. And yes, I could find someone who is willing to sell to me outright without any of the government BS, but I can expect to pay through the nose for the convenience, which is ridiculous and unnecessary when comparable alternatives exist - namely R-152a and 12a products. Are they as good as R-12 - no. Are they close enough - absolutely, and they're better than R-134a, as numerous studies have definitively shown. Not to mention that both R-12 and R-134a stand for a corrupt monopolistic unholy alliance between patent holder DuPont and our federal government. People should have a choice when they shop the refrigerant isle, as alternatives do indeed exist. But because of the government/DuPont, whenever you shop the refrigerant isle, the only thing you see is R-134a. Both R-152a and 12a are commonly used in almost every other country around the world, except ours. And yet, we claim to be the land of the free. Don't you find that to be just a little ironic, not to mention tragic?

Just to note, I have nothing against R-12 or obtaining it unlawfully - if you're so inclined to do so, more power to you. My problems with it start and end with the government (I really don't blame DuPont for getting away what the government allows them to - it's the government's fault for being corrupt).

End of rant.

[kings1527]

My biggest reason for not using R-12: the government. EPA says that to purchase and handle the product in a lawful manner, I have to pay $20 and take an online open book exam (that discriminates against illiterate people) in order to receive a certification (big daddy government's blessing). Not gonna do it. Yeah, I could find a seller who only asks for a waiver, but the legality of those is currently undecided, not to mention that it's still an additional hoop to jump through. Again, not gonna do it. And yes, I could find someone who is willing to sell to me outright without any of the government BS, but I can expect to pay through the nose for the convenience, which is ridiculous and unnecessary when comparable alternatives exist - namely R-152a and 12a products. Are they as good as R-12 - no. Are they close enough - absolutely, and they're better than R-134a, as numerous studies have definitively shown. Not to mention that both R-12 and R-134a stand for a corrupt monopolistic unholy alliance between patent holder DuPont and our federal government. People should have a choice when they shop the refrigerant isle, as alternatives do indeed exist. But because of the government/DuPont, whenever you shop the refrigerant isle, the only thing you see is R-134a. Both R-152a and 12a are commonly used in almost every other country around the world, except ours. And yet, we claim to be the land of the free. Don't you find that to be just a little ironic, not to mention tragic?

Just to note, I have nothing against R-12 or obtaining it unlawfully - if you're so inclined to do so, more power to you. My problems with it start and end with the government (I really don't blame DuPont for getting away what the government allows them to - it's the government's fault for being corrupt).

End of rant.

I can understand and respect all of that, Josh.

[NightFlyer]

There are other important characteristics of a refrigerant besides raw efficiency. How it reacts with the metals of the system. How it works with the oil. How flammable it is and how toxic and under what conditions. Then there are the more esoteric things like how it acts at phase change, how well it wets the surfaces, how it reacts with moisture. If you want to experiment that is great but before you go promoting it for everyone you should at least do it yourself and see what happens over the long term. Ammonia is also a very good refrigerant but no one is using that anymore, do you know why?

SAE, KAIST, and Purdue noted no ill effects whatsoever from running R-152a or a 12a product in a traditional R-12 system. Hundreds of millions across the planet have and continue to use both products successfully for decades - isn't that proof enough? As to why these refrigerants aren't used more this nation's mobile fleets, see my rant above.

Purdue did note that running R-134a in a traditional R-12 system with mineral oil did pose a risk of premature compressor failure due to R-134a's poor miscibility with mineral oil, however, performance was increased to acceptable miscibility levels by changing the system oil out with an alkylbenzene (ester is one that works well).

Ammonia is still widely used as a refrigerant in industrial and commercial applications. As to why it's not used in mobile applications - government and monopolistic practices of certain industrial participants. As long as the government continues to be ban happy, we can expect to see more people switching over the 12a, R-152a, and ammonia based alternatives in the future, unless/until they start over-regulating the use of those products as well. No government has restricted the choice of mobile refrigerants the way that our government has, and yet, we're supposedly the land of the free. Free my ass...

[Andrew]

FYI: Last week I picked up a 30 lb cylinder of R134a at Sam's Club for $80.00! It's hard to beat $2.67 per pound! By way of comparison, I have seen auto parts stores selling 12 oz cans of R134a for $15...for that price you might as well just spend spend the extra $5 and buy a 14 oz can of R-12!!!!

Are you sure there is a phase out date on R134a? As an HFC R134a is not covered under the Montreal Protocol. In contrast production of HCFC's such as R22 will cease on January 1, 2020.

From personal expereince, I've had decent results with R134a conversions, but in my opinion R-12 is still the best for cooling temps, system component life and leak resistance. Furthermore, the price for R-12 actually seems to be going down compared to 10-15 years ago. I attribute this to the price dropoff to the simple concept of supply and demand...demand has fallen off because most pre 1994 cars are no longer on the road. In fact there are a quite a few people on Craigslist selling cans of R-12 that they stockpiled in the early 1990s for cars that they no longer have. (How many 1987 Olds Cieras or 1990 Pontiac Grand Ams do you see on the road anymore?) Conversions have also played some role in the demand drop-off.

While an EPA 609 license is required for the purchase of R-12; the certification can be completed online with an open book test for $19.95 and never expires. Furthermore, R-12 shop equipment is also commonly found on Craigslist. A few years ago I picked up a Recovery / Recycling machine with less than 40 hours on it and 2 pounds of R-12 in the recovery tank for $100. Many shops cant justify spending the money on a 30 pound tank of R-12 to service the few remining pre 94 cars they see; thus, R-12 equipment is just sitting around collecting dust in the storage room. Obviously speciality shops servicing classics are the exception to this theory.

If you're going to go the retrofit route, you might as well do the job right as opposed to swapping the fittings and calling it "converted." Again in my opinion, the key to a successful retrofit is draining the compressor oil and refilling it with the proper Ester oil, replacing the accumulator and replacing all seals where the connection is opened followed by pulling a good solid vacuum and charging to about 85% of the R-12 capacity. I have also had good results with the variable orifice tubes that have become available in recent years, again in my opinion they are worth the $16-$20 cost.

My general rule of thumb is if you have a major system failure resulting in a system discharge or a system that has leaked to 0 PSI, a conversion is the cost-effective way to go. Furthermore, even if you are willing to pay the extra cost for R-12, which is running anywhere from $12 to $30 for a 14 oz can on Craigslist, you'll spend lots of time and money on gas driving around to buy cans of R-12 from various sources. However, if you're getting rapid cycling of the compressor the first time you turn on the A/C in the spring, a top off with a can of R-12 is probably the best route.

However, like everything else, there are DeLorean specific considerations: The molecular structure of R134a is thinner than R-12. Thus R134a will actually leak through stock R-12 AC hoses. With my 85 Toronado, with a combined total of about 2 feet of AC hose, this is not a significant issue. In contrast the DeLorean A/C system has roughly 20 feet of A/C hose. Replacing the stock hoses with barrier type hoses will solve that problem; but, who wants to go through the hassle and expense of replacing an otherwise functional hose? Thus without hose replacement you could go from a R-12 system with no leaks to a R134a system that you have to top-off one or more times per year.

The second consideration is cooling capacity. Between the minimal ventilation provided by toll booth windows and the black interior on about 50% of Deloreans, A/C on any day over 80 degrees is a must. The couple degree difference between R-12 and R134a can cross the line from comfortable and a little too warm. I would avoid the various blends (including anthing with a R4** designation) that are on the market due to the fact that blended refrigerants leak at different rates; therefore, they can not be topped off.

Finally, don't overlook something as simple as a heater control valve. Having a non-functional heater control valve will raise the max A/C vent temp by a couple degrees.

In my DMC I'm running R134a with a normal climate variable rate orifice tube and I get vent temps in the upper 40's at idle, and mid 40's on the expressway. It's not the 38 degrees I get out of my 1972 Riviera's R-12 system, but the Riv uses a constant running compressor with an expansion valve which drops my MPG to about 12....downhill with the wind.

[NightFlyer]

FYI: Last week I picked up a 30 lb cylinder of R134a at Sam's Club for $80.00! It's hard to beat $2.67 per pound! By way of comparison, I have seen auto parts stores selling 12 oz cans of R134a for $15...for that price you might as well just spend spend the extra $5 and buy a 14 oz can of R-12!!!!

Are you sure there is a phase out date on R134a? As an HFC R134a is not covered under the Montreal Protocol. In contrast production of HCFC's such as R22 will cease on January 1, 2020.

I admittedly got some of the details blurred - I grew up in Wisconsin.

But give big daddy government some time - they'll be phasing it out as soon as DuPont, SAE, and the auto industry give their blessing to HFO-1234yf. Currently, the EU is pushing to amend the Montreal Protocol to include R-134a, having already banned usage in new builds there and are already on a complete phase out schedule. The phase out schedule proposed is similar to that of HCFCs. Certain states are already imposing restrictions against R-134a. In Wisconsin, it was unlawful to sell R-134a for intended use as a refrigerant, in addition to prohibiting all sales of the product in less than 15lbs containers, since 1994. Thanks to current Governor Walker (R) and the largely GOP legislature, that ban was lifted in 2012. California is currently looking into banning sales of R-134a on the consumer market and then phasing out licensed sales shortly thereafter. It's only just a matter of time before the feds adopt and impose a phase out - mark my words :smile:

Bulk R-152a (35lbs cylinder) can be had for as little as $.97/lbs, is 11% more efficient, and has a greater miscibility with lubricants. You also don't have to worry about over-regulation (at least not yet anyway).

[mburshtain]

Furthermore, the price for R-12 actually seems to be going down compared to 10-15 years ago. I attribute this to the price dropoff to the simple concept of supply and demand...demand has fallen off because most pre 1994 cars are no longer on the road. In fact there are a quite a few people on Craigslist selling cans of R-12 that they stockpiled in the early 1990s for cars that they no longer have. (How many 1987 Olds Cieras or 1990 Pontiac Grand Ams do you see on the road anymore?) Conversions have also played some role in the demand drop-off.


Can't agree more!
You can find R-12 on ebay for very affordable price.
I just purchased a few R-12 cans for the price of $18.7 a can and my AC is blowing cold...

[David T]

Can't agree more!
You can find R-12 on ebay for very affordable price.
I just purchased a few R-12 cans for the price of $18.7 a can and my AC is blowing cold...

I do not want it to sound like I discourage experimentation. What I do discourage is promoting things that have no value. For instance carburetors. I don't care what any one individual does to their car. What I don't think is necessary is saying EVERYONE should do it. Like converting to -134 or anything other than R-12. It is not difficult or overly expensive to stay with R-12 at least for the foreseeable future. That should be the option of first choice. You can do it in an environmentally responsible way. Make sure your system has no leaks. If you don't want to get a license there are still plenty of sellers on E-Bay that although they say they will only sell to "Certified" buyers, they never follow up on the paperwork. You are making a bigger deal out of this then necessary. Go ahead and tap cans of Dust Off. Let us know how it works for you and then everyone can make up their own minds. Just don't say this is for everyone. Have you every read the labels on weedkiller or fertilizer or the label on your pillow? Makes what they tell you about Freon look like nothing!

[Michael]

....You can do it in an environmentally responsible way. Make sure your system has no leaks....
If you are that worried about being environmentally responsible, you shouldn't be driving a Delorean to begin with. Sell it and get a Prius. Of course if you sell it, someone else will drive it and you have failed to help the environment...so crush it or convert it to electric.

Personally I think it's not a debate point. If every single Delorean owner decided to vent all their freon and convert to whatever, the little squirrels and the little bunnies won't die.

[NightFlyer]

I do not want it to sound like I discourage experimentation. What I do discourage is promoting things that have no value. For instance carburetors. I don't care what any one individual does to their car. What I don't think is necessary is saying EVERYONE should do it. Like converting to -134 or anything other than R-12. It is not difficult or overly expensive to stay with R-12 at least for the foreseeable future. That should be the option of first choice. You can do it in an environmentally responsible way. Make sure your system has no leaks. If you don't want to get a license there are still plenty of sellers on E-Bay that although they say they will only sell to "Certified" buyers, they never follow up on the paperwork. You are making a bigger deal out of this then necessary. Go ahead and tap cans of Dust Off. Let us know how it works for you and then everyone can make up their own minds. Just don't say this is for everyone. Have you every read the labels on weedkiller or fertilizer or the label on your pillow? Makes what they tell you about Freon look like nothing!

That's all fine and dandy, but the OP was specifically asking about R12 alternatives. In fact, the name of the thread is "R12 compatible refrigerants." Thus, while you may see alternatives as having "no value" in the current marketplace, there are many who clearly disagree with you. For those who want to jump through government imposed hoops / red tape and get certified, openly and actively break the law, and/or pay anywhere from 4 to 7.5 times the amount of a decent replacement refrigerant, that's fine and dandy - no one is putting such people down. In fact, more power to them. But this thread was originally created to explore alternatives, thus shouldn't you expect a good conversation about alternatives? Of what value is it to promote the stock/OEM product in a thread specifically pertaining to alternatives? And yet, you implicitly suggest that those who were constantly raising the positive aspects of carburation in threads that didn't specifically pertain to such as being of "no value." For real? Look in the mirror lately?

If you want to create a thread extolling the virtues of sticking with R-12, no one is stopping you from doing so. But why get so defense about the issue in a thread that is specifically asking about alternatives???

Whatever...