Is Everything Alright?

[mluder]

Let me preface this post by saying I have not cleaned all my ground locations. I have cleaned the one under the fuel tank closing plate on the driver side near the headlamps, and the one on the top of the intake manifold... That being the case, there is some strangeness afoot in my electrical system.

I installed a new alternator about 6 months ago. The previous one new one (about a year old) was not supplying sufficient charge to my battery.
Everything seemed fine with the new one until recently I started getting odd readings in my instrument cluster and weird behavior in my environment controls i.e. blower fan.

The first thing I noticed was my fuel gauge - I had just filled the tank (yes I'm certain it was full) but the gauge was only reading 3/4. I also noticed my oil pressure seemed lower than normal. I was thinking maybe something was wrong in my instrument cluster - I haven't ruled that out yet. Subsequently I also noticed the voltage gauge was a little under 13V. Then a strange thing happened. One day as I was driving, the voltage jumped up to about halfway between the 13V and the next mark and the air fan kicked up it's speed, fuel tank read higher, and the oil pressure picked up - almost like an over voltage. It later dropped back down again. Now it's intermitant but usually the gauge reads just a hair above 13V. Which brings me to what I present here.

I took some readings at the alternator and the battery. Pictures are presented here. What I want to know is - do the numbers I'm reading seem correct? If not, where might the fault lie? Alternator, Battery, some bad ground in the system that is limiting current flow back to the battery?

On to the pictures...

Connected at the alternator:
Idle-
2673726738
Idle with high beams on-
2673926740
Idle with high beams and AC Max-
2674126742

Connected at the battery:
Idle-
2674326744
Idle with high beams on-
2674526746
Idle with high beams and AC Max-
2674726748

Any help would be appreciated.

Cheers
Steven

[Exolis]

With the 3rd setting (the very low volt gauge reading), do the lights dim at all? Measurements at the battery and alt are fine and where they should be, so no worry there. Check Voltage Drop(Batt to Component 12V) and Ground Float (GND of Component to Battery GND). So things like The 12V side of the Headlamps to Battery, and see how much of a drop there is, same with GNDs. If it's anything over 1V, then there is some resistance from either loose wire or bad terminal. I wouldn't recommend using an Ohm Meter for it unless you have an expensive precision milliohm meter.

Check in several locations, I would recommend starting with Head Lamps, The meter/Volt gauge. For 12V side, if you get a high voltage drop, you can start tracing the wire back to the battery, checking the drops at different points like connectors, fuse, relay, etc. I believe there are some really detailed and helpful schematics for wiring in the resource page.

Hope that helps!

[Jonathan]

What is the history on your battery, Steven, and how old is it?

[mluder]

What is the history on your battery, Steven, and how old is it?

I think it's about 2-3 years old... I'll have to check my records when I get home.
I have to admit, if I recall correctly, I think at one point it got fully discharged, or discharged enough that the car had to be hooked up to a battery charger to get it started again. So it's not impossible that it's damaged.

Cheers
Steven

[mluder]

With the 3rd setting (the very low volt gauge reading), do the lights dim at all? Measurements at the battery and alt are fine and where they should be, so no worry there. Check Voltage Drop(Batt to Component 12V) and Ground Float (GND of Component to Battery GND). So things like The 12V side of the Headlamps to Battery, and see how much of a drop there is, same with GNDs. If it's anything over 1V, then there is some resistance from either loose wire or bad terminal. I wouldn't recommend using an Ohm Meter for it unless you have an expensive precision milliohm meter.

Check in several locations, I would recommend starting with Head Lamps, The meter/Volt gauge. For 12V side, if you get a high voltage drop, you can start tracing the wire back to the battery, checking the drops at different points like connectors, fuse, relay, etc. I believe there are some really detailed and helpful schematics for wiring in the resource page.

Hope that helps!

I'l have to check to see if there's a dimming of the lights when the AC cycles in. I do recall that they brighten up a bit with the engine under acceleration.

Like I said, I can't rule out a faulty, or weak ground connection somewhere. If I understand electrical theory wouldn't this result in a reduced return voltage to the battery? You're test seems like a good way to find the weak link. I would have assumed I could do this by testing resistance to see if things ohm out. However, it sounds like your suggesting to check the voltage on the supply side at the component first to make sure that 12V or better are being delivered?

I have the wiring schematic but I'm no electrical engineer. I think I can probably get my way through it though.

Thanks for the advice.

Cheers
Steven

[Jonathan]

I think it's about 2-3 years old... I'll have to check my records when I get home.
I have to admit, if I recall correctly, I think at one point it got fully discharged, or discharged enough that the car had to be hooked up to a battery charger to get it started again. So it's not impossible that it's damaged.

Cheers
Steven

I think some shops will let you bring in a battery to be tested or analyzed, right? I've never done that myself, but see others mentioning it. If you know of a place near you that can run some sort of diagnostic on it, that would at least give you the peace of mind that it isn't the source of the problem. When I read your symptoms, my initial guess was that the battery might be the problem. I know others have had issues with batteries known to have been drained down all the way. I think David T. is familiar with this if he chimes in.

[David T]

I think some shops will let you bring in a battery to be tested or analyzed, right? I've never done that myself, but see others mentioning it. If you know of a place near you that can run some sort of diagnostic on it, that would at least give you the peace of mind that it isn't the source of the problem. When I read your symptoms, my initial guess was that the battery might be the problem. I know others have had issues with batteries known to have been drained down all the way. I think David T. is familiar with this if he chimes in.

If you suspect the battery most auto stores will test it for free. It can be done in the car or by itself. Batteries can fail many different ways including intermittently. If the side terminals are overtightened you can damage the connector internally and it is difficult to tell. Your problems sound like a bad connection somewhere. Checking the battery is a good place to start.

[hmcelraft]

Could be your ground connection at the trailing arm mount-bolt is loose - The ground at the bulk-head to the frame under the coolant reservoir. Also, the ground strap at the engine mount. I would check those for sure. And --- the battery connections.

You might disconnect the battery ground and start a resistance test on the ground wires and connections. Battery ground wire to the bulk-head connector would an important one to test. All of the ground connections need to be clean and tight to get a low resistance.

[Exolis]

I'l have to check to see if there's a dimming of the lights when the AC cycles in. I do recall that they brighten up a bit with the engine under acceleration.

Like I said, I can't rule out a faulty, or weak ground connection somewhere. If I understand electrical theory wouldn't this result in a reduced return voltage to the battery? You're test seems like a good way to find the weak link. I would have assumed I could do this by testing resistance to see if things ohm out. However, it sounds like your suggesting to check the voltage on the supply side at the component first to make sure that 12V or better are being delivered?

I have the wiring schematic but I'm no electrical engineer. I think I can probably get my way through it though.

Thanks for the advice.

Cheers
Steven

Yes, you're basically checking the drop and float, the purpose of this is to get a more accurate measurement then doing Ohm measurement. As I mentioned early, unless you have an expensive precise milli-ohm meter, a typical ohm meter won't be able to get accurate Ohm readings below 1 ohm. Say you have a load of 20 Amps going to ground, you measured your ground points to being 0.1 Ohm, pretty good right? Well, 0.1ohm * 20A = 2V. So by that, you have a 2V difference from your component GND to Battery GND. By doing the Ground Float, you can check to see how good the connection is by the difference between your component GND and Battery GND.

Voltage drop is basically the same principal, just on the 12V side.

I don't think your battery is the cause. Nothing really pointing towards a bad battery imo.

[Elvis]

Battery is good.

With the engine running and the DMM set as a voltmeter you can find where you
have the voltage drops.


14.4V at the alternator is great.

Check the connections where +12V and GND enter the interior of the car,
and the GND below the water bottle in the engine compartment where it
goes to the frame.

[DMCMW Dave]

Agreed - check the battery ground bolt at the trailing arm and the ground braid on the engine mount.

[mluder]

Appreciate all the helpful suggestions. I've been a bit lazy, though I did manage to pull the battery out and take it to Auto Zone to have it tested. They got inconsistencies. I.E. the battery tested fine though slightly undercharged. I had them go ahead and charge it. After that they retested and it wasn't reading full charge under load - 12.55 Volts was all they got instead of the 12.6 expected. Basically they said the battery will not full charge. If I recall correctly. The guy said it shouldn't be a problem at this time of year but I might have trouble when it's really cold out.

I will have to get under the car next and check the battery ground and the frame to engine braid (I recall testing this one briefly before and remembered getting some funny inconsistencies on the ohm meter). Any advice on cleaning this one? I understand removing the nuts from the mount bolts here can cause headaches. Also, should I plan to replace the braided ground? I understand it's kind of crap.

Thanks again.
Cheers
Steven

[Exolis]

Appreciate all the helpful suggestions. I've been a bit lazy, though I did manage to pull the battery out and take it to Auto Zone to have it tested. They got inconsistencies. I.E. the battery tested fine though slightly undercharged. I had them go ahead and charge it. After that they retested and it wasn't reading full charge under load - 12.55 Volts was all they got instead of the 12.6 expected. Basically they said the battery will not full charge. If I recall correctly. The guy said it shouldn't be a problem at this time of year but I might have trouble when it's really cold out.

Thanks again.
Cheers
Steven

If they tested it right after charging, then it's expected to make no difference as it's pretty much surface charge. Ideally after charging battery, you'll want to wait about 3 hrs for the battery to stabilize before testing it. So with the first test, it still sounds good to last you a while longer.

[mluder]

This is what it read at the dash in my way to work this morninig. This is with no added load (headlights, etc) while under acceleration. Hmmmm. :0/
26825

Cheers
Steven

[Jonathan]

Whoa! I hope you had your seatbelt on!! hehe, j/k :)

Volts seem a bit on the low side as you're likely thinking too. Did you end up doing anything with the battery other than get it charged and tested?

[mluder]

Whoa! I hope you had your seatbelt on!! hehe, j/k :)

Volts seem a bit on the low side as you're likely thinking too. Did you end up doing anything with the battery other than get it charged and tested?

Stupid iPhone - It always does that with pictures...

The car seems to run fine - I have no trouble driving and it starts up with no problems so the battery is not getting discharged. The alternator is running the car during driving as it should so I'm not pulling from the battery when I drive. I'm starting to think everything is fine between the battery and alternator and the voltage drop is local at the dash area. As you can tell from the photo (if you stand on your head) all my gauges are reading incorrectly - I just filled the gas tank and oil pressure is too low. I also no the environmental fan is running low because the voltage will occasionally jump up to the appropriate spot on the gauge and the blower fan will kick up the airflow and the rest of the instruments pop back to where they should be.

I'm gonna have to try to decipher the electrical diagram and see where the supply comes into the dash and try to determine if there is a fault there.

Cheers
Steve

[Jonathan]

Stupid iPhone - It always does that with pictures...

I don't know what to suggest for you in figuring out your electrical issues other than these cars shouldn't get wet or be fed after midnight ;)

I had that same iPhone upside down-ness you are having. I had always taken photos with the phone on it's side and I would use the physical volume button as the shutter button. I had rotated the phone so that the buttons were on the top where your right hand fingers would be (and where the shutter button is for a real camera). They came upside down on the computer every time though.

I saw a suggestion to rotate your phone the other way so that when it is on it's side taking pictures horizontally, the volume/shutter button is on the bottom edge and over where your left hand fingers are. This seemed to work as the photos still took as they should and then they also showed up on the computer the right way up too.

Give it a shot!

[mluder]

Give it a shot!

I'll give it a try. It's definitely something in the way the iPhone encodes the image and transfers it to a PC because a friend who uses an iPhone and Mac does not have the same problem.

Cheers
Steve

[DMCMW Dave]

With the engine running, watch the dash and wiggle fuse #5. Pull it in and out of the socket but not all the way. I've seen that one get dirty and make the gauge read very low.

[SS Spoiler]

Dave needs to put all his knowledge into book form! It will be a best seller. Don't forget the pictures.....

[Elvis]

Have you checked and measured the spots I asked you to ?

The battery is connected directly to the alternator.

The interior of the car has different wires !!!!
I want(ed) you to check those !

Such a big voltage drop can easily be found with a multimeter
set to volt meter.

[mluder]

With the engine running, watch the dash and wiggle fuse #5. Pull it in and out of the socket but not all the way. I've seen that one get dirty and make the gauge read very low.

I thought that as well, Dave. I checked the fuse and it's fine. Cleaned up a couple other loose ones while I was in there. My high beam fuse looks like it's experienced a melt down at some point but it still works.

Here's something interesting... The brake lights are supposed to be fuse 18 according to the wiring diagram and the workshop manual. My fuse 18 has nothing connected to the back of the fuse block. Hmmm....

BTW - I found the issue... Stay tuned.

Cheers
Steven

[mluder]

Have you checked and measured the spots I asked you to ?

The battery is connected directly to the alternator.

The interior of the car has different wires !!!!
I want(ed) you to check those !

Such a big voltage drop can easily be found with a multimeter
set to volt meter.

Settle down...
I found the culprit - sort of by accident.

What I discovered was the car on start up would usually read just fine at the instrument cluster but then would dip eventually. Here's the catch... I almost always start my car with the door open. Tonight I noticed when I closed the door about 1/4 the way down the instruments and interior fan dropped. Eureka!

There is a pinched wire at the door hinge that is shorting out.

I don't know if this means anything - but if I read the wiring diagram correctly, power from the door lights also is tied to the door ajar switch and dash indicator. The short to ground in the door is causing a voltage drop to the dash area at least. Could it be even farther reaching? Would a short in the door cause the engine not to fire correctly or is it separate?

Another potential culprit could be the side mirror control. When I first got the car both mirrors worked fine. Then a short time later the passenger one stopped. I know the motor and the control switch work because I have switched the wiring at the control and ran wires directly to the motor and its fine. There a fault in the connection between the driver's side door and the passenger door.

Whichever wire is to blame I'm pretty sure it's gotten worse over time. Now when I close the door I can occasionally get a slight discharge of the stainless door skin or metal handle.

So now I know what it is... just have to find it.
Thanks for all the help everyone.

Cheers
Steven

[Exolis]

Settle down...
I found the culprit - sort of by accident.

What I discovered was the car on start up would usually read just fine at the instrument cluster but then would dip eventually. Here's the catch... I almost always start my car with the door open. Tonight I noticed when I closed the door about 1/4 the way down the instruments and interior fan dropped. Eureka!

There is a pinched wire at the door hinge that is shorting out.

I don't know if this means anything - but if I read the wiring diagram correctly, power from the door lights also is tied to the door ajar switch and dash indicator. The short to ground in the door is causing a voltage drop to the dash area at least. Could it be even farther reaching? Would a short in the door cause the engine not to fire correctly or is it separate?

Another potential culprit could be the side mirror control. When I first got the car both mirrors worked fine. Then a short time later the passenger one stopped. I know the motor and the control switch work because I have switched the wiring at the control and ran wires directly to the motor and its fine. There a fault in the connection between the driver's side door and the passenger door.

Whichever wire is to blame I'm pretty sure it's gotten worse over time. Now when I close the door I can occasionally get a slight discharge of the stainless door skin or metal handle.

So now I know what it is... just have to find it.
Thanks for all the help everyone.

Cheers
Steven

A short in the harness would cause the fuse to blow, fuses are there to protect the harness in such a case so continuous current won't melt/catch the wires on fire. Plus fuse for Voltmeter in Dash is on separate fuse, so should not cause any kind of interference unless there is some kind of unintended crossfeed. If the wire to Door SW was shorted to ground, it would essentially be same condition with Door close, basically the Door Ajar light would be off when the door is fully opened.

Can you elaborate on the door discharge? Is it giving you a shock when you touch it or something?

[mluder]

A short in the harness would cause the fuse to blow, fuses are there to protect the harness in such a case so continuous current won't melt/catch the wires on fire. Plus fuse for Voltmeter in Dash is on separate fuse, so should not cause any kind of interference unless there is some kind of unintended crossfeed. If the wire to Door SW was shorted to ground, it would essentially be same condition with Door close, basically the Door Ajar light would be off when the door is fully opened.

Can you elaborate on the door discharge? Is it giving you a shock when you touch it or something?

That's correct. I can occasionally get a slight shock off the door or handle. Doesn't happen all the time. I could be static but I doubt it.

What I observe is that with the door open, the instrument gauges, lights, and the environment fan are at full power. If i close the door slightly, everything drops in power and continues that way as long as the door is closed. When I open the door back up it doesn't return to normal until the door is at full open.

Cheers
Steven

[Elvis]

This is weird.

[Exolis]

That's correct. I can occasionally get a slight shock off the door or handle. Doesn't happen all the time. I could be static but I doubt it.

What I observe is that with the door open, the instrument gauges, lights, and the environment fan are at full power. If i close the door slightly, everything drops in power and continues that way as long as the door is closed. When I open the door back up it doesn't return to normal until the door is at full open.

Cheers
Steven

o_O Can you take a volt measurement from Door to Battery GND? Do you have pics of the pinch?

[mluder]

o_O Can you take a volt measurement from Door to Battery GND?

Do you mean positive lead on the door panel and negative lead on the battery negative or where the battery grounds to the frame under the coolant bottle?


Do you have pics of the pinch?

Not sure where its at. I tried futzing with the rubber sheath between the door and the roof box while the door was open to see if I could make it drop voltage as it does when the door is closed.
It just occurred to me - it might not be a pinch at all... My driver's side door lock solenoid is disconnected because it wont cycle all the way. I thought we tucked the wire up when we did that but I wonder if it's not a pinch but rather gravity that is allowing that wire to make contact inside the door? That might explain why when I'm driving I ill occasionally get moments of normal voltage.

Hmmm.
I guess I better take apart my door. :hmm:


Cheers
Steven

[Exolis]

Do you mean positive lead on the door panel and negative lead on the battery negative or where the battery grounds to the frame under the coolant bottle?

Yes, Positive on Door, negative on Battery GND. The fact you are sometimes getting shocked is very odd, not sure how much of a shock it is, but typically 12V shouldn't be able to shock you, unless your hands and feet are bare and wet(even then it should be pretty hard).

[mluder]

Yes, Positive on Door, negative on Battery GND. The fact you are sometimes getting shocked is very odd, not sure how much of a shock it is, but typically 12V shouldn't be able to shock you, unless your hands and feet are bare and wet(even then it should be pretty hard).

It's real minimal - Like a mild static discharge - not a continuous charge.
Might just be static.

Cheers
Steven

[mluder]

Problem solved... Thanks to Toby Peterson and Knut Grimsrud.

We had the PNDC Portland Tech Session yesterday and after noodling a bit prior, Toby and Knut had a theory that proved to be correct.

It was the ground point behind the rear carpet panel on the firewall. The nut holding the ground on was only finger tight. I pulled it off, cleaned the surfaces, put it bac together snugging everything up nice and tight. Dash problem, and a multitude of other things were corrected by this simple little fix. My dash gauges no longer jump around and pin the temp needle straight down when I start the car. All the readings are accurate - in the past they were never reliable. My idle settled down and is now almost rock solid. Even my windshield wipers, which in the past seemed barely able to swing the arc, are working full steam. What a relieve.

The theory was that the poor ground connection at the bulkhead allowed another path to ground to interfere. Essentially, when I closed my door it was making contact with the t-panel and shorting to ground there.

All told, a very productive day with some other little items being tackled like my throttle linkages and a head slapper with my spark plug wires. Let's just say my drive home was very spirited and the car was much more responsive and peppy.

Cheers
Steven

[NightFlyer]

Problem solved... Thanks to Toby Peterson and Knut Grimsrud.

We had the PNDC Portland Tech Session yesterday and after noodling a bit prior, Toby and Knut had a theory that proved to be correct.

It was the ground point behind the rear carpet panel on the firewall. The nut holding the ground on was only finger tight. I pulled it off, cleaned the surfaces, put it bac together snugging everything up nice and tight. Dash problem, and a multitude of other things were corrected by this simple little fix. My dash gauges no longer jump around and pin the temp needle straight down when I start the car. All the readings are accurate - in the past they were never reliable. My idle settled down and is now almost rock solid. Even my windshield wipers, which in the past seemed barely able to swing the arc, are working full steam. What a relieve.

The theory was that the poor ground connection at the bulkhead allowed another path to ground to interfere. Essentially, when I closed my door it was making contact with the t-panel and shorting to ground there.

All told, a very productive day with some other little items being tackled like my throttle linkages and a head slapper with my spark plug wires. Let's just say my drive home was very spirited and the car was much more responsive and peppy.

Cheers
Steven

Can you post of pic of exactly where that ground point is located at?

Thanks!

[DMCMW Dave]

Problem solved... Thanks to Toby Peterson and Knut Grimsrud.

We had the PNDC Portland Tech Session yesterday and after noodling a bit prior, Toby and Knut had a theory that proved to be correct.

The theory was that the poor ground connection at the bulkhead allowed another path to ground to interfere. Essentially, when I closed my door it was making contact with the t-panel and shorting to ground there.


Steven

Right fix, wrong theory. With the bulkhead ground loose, the next path to ground is through the door lock solenoid ground to the door skin. When the door is open, the door skin hits the T-panel; which hits the quarter panels, which are grounded by a wire to the rear of the frame. When you close the door even a little bit, it stops touching the t-panel and you now just have the (bad) bulkhead ground. That is why things seemed OK with the doors open but not closed.

There is no problem at all with the door wiring itself.

[mluder]

Right fix, wrong theory. With the bulkhead ground loose, the next path to ground is through the door lock solenoid ground to the door skin. When the door is open, the door skin hits the T-panel; which hits the quarter panels, which are grounded by a wire to the rear of the frame. When you close the door even a little bit, it stops touching the t-panel and you now just have the (bad) bulkhead ground. That is why things seemed OK with the doors open but not closed.

There is no problem at all with the door wiring itself.

You're right, Dave. That's exactly almost word for word what Toby said... I just mixed up my remembering of it.

Cheers
Steven

[mluder]

Can you post of pic of exactly where that ground point is located at?

Thanks!

I don't have a picture but I can tell you how to find it.

Undo the top of your cargo net (if you have one) and remove the four hooks that support the top of it. They hold in the rear bulkhead carpeted panel. Ones the hooks are off the panel just pulls forward from the top - be careful of the cargo lamp. You may have to remove it.

The ground lug is on the passenger side - you can't miss it. There is essentially a bolt that passed through the bulkhead and attaches to the metal bracket behind the starter solenoid in the engine compartment. Just to the left of the ground is a mess of positive lead wires so you might want to disconnect your battery before messing with anything. We had to get a wrench on the bolt head in the engine bay to tighten the lug before tightening down the ground wire. Toby made contact between the ground and the positive leads twice before we decided to shut the battery off. :wrenchin:

Cheers
Steven

[Elvis]

Battery is good.

With the engine running and the DMM set as a voltmeter you can find where you
have the voltage drops.


14.4V at the alternator is great.

Check the connections where +12V and GND enter the interior of the car,
and the GND below the water bottle in the engine compartment where it
goes to the frame.


well....glad you found it.

[Jonathan]

Can you post of pic of exactly where that ground point is located at?

Thanks!

Is this the one you're talking about, Steven?

Mind the mess, photo was taken while my stereo install project was in process.

26983

[mluder]

Is this the one you're talking about, Steven?

26983

That's the one.

Cheers
Steven