Starting Issue Unlike Anything I've Seen

[jrandle]

Ok, lets get the basics out of the way: new alternator from Hervey, new accumulator from Hervey, full tune-up with new plugs, wires, cap, rotor, filter, all new relays and fuses, new stock relay and new upgraded solid state rpm relay, new engine to chassis ground cable, new head unit, brand new battery.

All those items taken into account, I have a starting issue unlike anything else. Last Sunday, with the new battery recently put in, I took the car to a relatives. Starting the car in my garage was as perfect as could be and the drive was nice with the all dash gauges reading well. Got to my Uncle's house and turned the car off. They've already seen it so once I got there, the doors remained shut until I left. As I was leaving, about three hours had passed since I arrived. The car would not start. I turned the key and could hear the starter working and the fuel pump priming, but the engine wouldn't kick over. I tried the plug-swap thinking my WUR may be bad, but all that did was flood the engine with no starting. We rolled the car into the street and attempted a push start to no avail. Finally, my cousin gave me a jump start and it immediately kicked over.

The car has been sitting in my garage since Easter Sunday. If I were to go start it right now it would start with no trouble, but after driving it for a while I need a jump start to get it going again.

Any thoughts on what might be causing it or any tips to help in diagnosis?

Thanks in advance for all your help!

[Jonathan]

How does your ballast resistor wiring look? Photo would be helpful if you have one to share.

[jrandle]

How does your ballast resistor wiring look? Photo would be helpful if you have one to share.

Sorry, that's also new from Hervey, installed by mechanic. I can take a photo when I get home from work. I also forgot to mention a new Bosch Coil installed.

[Bitsyncmaster]

It could have been a warm start problem. My car would not start after a 3 hour rest in the hot summer. It would start at 2 hours or 4 hours of rest. My fix was to design the RPM relay to extend rest pressure time. So you can try moving the jumper on the Solid State RPM relay to "hot start fix".

[jrandle]

It could have been a warm start problem. My car would not start after a 3 hour rest in the hot summer. It would start at 2 hours or 4 hours of rest. My fix was to design the RPM relay to extend rest pressure time. So you can try moving the jumper on the Solid State RPM relay to "hot start fix".

Thank you for the info Dave! I've actually had your relay in the "Hot Fix" position since I got it, so that isn't helping. I also tried swapping your plug for my new stock relay to see if there was an issue with the relay and that had no bearing on the issue. As I had said, I did the plug swap which flooded the engine, so I know I can generate the pressure needed to start it, but that didn't allow me to start.

It's almost as if something is heating up a creating a short and only when it cools is the short removed and I am able to start it. By jump starting, I'm supplying the electrical system with a running alternator which gives it the power necessary to start.

I've pretty much ruled out the fuel system for the moment. The car was at the mechanic for almost 6 months while they were trying to solve a single issue which was fixed by replacing the engine to chassis ground cable. While it was there and they were trying to diagnose the problem, the fuel system was where they spent most of their time and pretty much everything was found to be good. Rest pressure was good as was supply pressure.

[David T]

Ok, lets get the basics out of the way: new alternator from Hervey, new accumulator from Hervey, full tune-up with new plugs, wires, cap, rotor, filter, all new relays and fuses, new stock relay and new upgraded solid state rpm relay, new engine to chassis ground cable, new head unit, brand new battery.

All those items taken into account, I have a starting issue unlike anything else. Last Sunday, with the new battery recently put in, I took the car to a relatives. Starting the car in my garage was as perfect as could be and the drive was nice with the all dash gauges reading well. Got to my Uncle's house and turned the car off. They've already seen it so once I got there, the doors remained shut until I left. As I was leaving, about three hours had passed since I arrived. The car would not start. I turned the key and could hear the starter working and the fuel pump priming, but the engine wouldn't kick over. I tried the plug-swap thinking my WUR may be bad, but all that did was flood the engine with no starting. We rolled the car into the street and attempted a push start to no avail. Finally, my cousin gave me a jump start and it immediately kicked over.

The car has been sitting in my garage since Easter Sunday. If I were to go start it right now it would start with no trouble, but after driving it for a while I need a jump start to get it going again.

Any thoughts on what might be causing it or any tips to help in diagnosis?

Thanks in advance for all your help!

Exactly what do you mean by "hear the starter working but the engine wouldn't kick over"? Was the starter rotating the motor and was it fast enough? I am assuming with the jumping it was. If there is too high a current draw by the starter the motor would crank slow and there would not be enough voltage for the ignition ECU to produce spark. First make sure you have the relay bypass on the ballast resistor wired correctly. Next make sure you have good clean connections between the starter, the frame, and the battery. Measure the voltage drop to the starter at various points to see why the starter is not cranking well. Maybe you have leaky injectors filling the motor up with fuel and making it difficult for the starter.

[jrandle]

Exactly what do you mean by "hear the starter working but the engine wouldn't kick over"? Was the starter rotating the motor and was it fast enough? I am assuming with the jumping it was. If there is too high a current draw by the starter the motor would crank slow and there would not be enough voltage for the ignition ECU to produce spark. First make sure you have the relay bypass on the ballast resistor wired correctly. Next make sure you have good clean connections between the starter, the frame, and the battery. Measure the voltage drop to the starter at various points to see why the starter is not cranking well. Maybe you have leaky injectors filling the motor up with fuel and making it difficult for the starter.

I don't believe the injectors are leaky as I believe they were checked when it was in the shop but I will double check. Also, if it was leaky injectors I wouldn't be able to start it after letting it sit overnight.

Is it possible for the current draw by the starter to increase after the car has warmed up? If so then that will make it a likely culprit.

One thing I did notice when I got the car back was a relay attached to the ballast resistor that I hadn't seen before. It is possible that when they purchased the new ballast resistor it came with a new mounting bracket and the relay kit. I will also confirm this when I get home today.

[DMCMW Dave]

It's impossible to have an engine crank but not turn over.

Some common definitions:

Crank No Start: Starter turns, engages, engine rotates, but it does not start or fire. Ignition or Fuel problem.

No Crank (no starter noise) - Engine does not crank/turn over (i.e. the crankshaft is not rotating!) - means the starter clicks or does not do anything. Electrical problem or failed starter/solenoid.

Starter Spins/No Engagement - Starter spins up but does not engage - you hear the starter whine but the engine does not turn (rare, means bad drive unit or flywheel teeth missing)



To your problem - sounds like the ballast resistors may be wired incorrectly. In normal operation both resistors are in series with the coil. BUT during cranking 12V from the blue starter wire triggers the relay next to the ballast resistor to short one of them out. This increases the coil voltage during cranking. If this is not happening the spark is very weak (due to the starter pull), but jump starting the car adds a second battery to the mix and the voltage stays higher and the car starts. Recheck the ballast wiring all the way to the starter.

[jrandle]

It's impossible to have an engine crank but not turn over.

Some common definitions:

Crank No Start: Starter turns, engages, engine rotates, but it does not start or fire. Ignition or Fuel problem.

No Crank (no starter noise) - Engine does not crank/turn over (i.e. the crankshaft is not rotating!) - means the starter clicks or does not do anything. Electrical problem or failed starter/solenoid.

Starter Spins/No Engagement - Starter spins up but does not engage - you hear the starter whine but the engine does not turn (rare, means bad drive unit or flywheel teeth missing)



To your problem - sounds like the ballast resistors may be wired incorrectly. In normal operation both resistors are in series with the coil. BUT during cranking 12V from the blue starter wire triggers the relay next to the ballast resistor to short one of them out. This increases the coil voltage during cranking. If this is not happening the spark is very weak (due to the starter pull), but jump starting the car adds a second battery to the mix and the voltage stays higher and the car starts. Recheck the ballast wiring all the way to the starter.

I will certainly check that then as that may very well be the culprit. I should apologize as I am not very car savvy so a lot of this is a learning experience for me and what a car to learn on! Either way, using your definition, the problem is Crank No Start.

[DMCMW Dave]

I should apologize as I am not very car savvy so a lot of this is a learning experience for me and what a car to learn on! Start.

No problem! It's just one of my pet diagnostic peeves (I get this on the phone ALL the time) and figured this was a good time to set some definitions for the list readers.

[jrandle]

No problem! It's just one of my pet diagnostic peeves (I get this on the phone ALL the time) and figured this was a good time to set some definitions for the list readers.

Dave, one last thing for you. Although I am not doubting the possibility of faulty wiring on the ballast resistor, why would it only happen when the car is hot?

[Jonathan]

Dave, one last thing for you. Although I am not doubting the possibility of faulty wiring on the ballast resistor, why would it only happen when the car is hot?

Not knowing if yours is doing the exact same... until we get to see a picture... but when mine failed in the first season I had it, the mistake in the wiring only showed up after enough things in the car were running. And I mean electrical load like blower fan and I think ultimately the one that put it over the edge was the radiator fans. I don't know exactly all the in's and out's of how that circuit works, but eventually it got hot or misshapen enough to disconnect itself completely from the resistor ends. It's really easy to check though when you or someone else looking at it knows what it is supposed to look like.

[DMCMW Dave]

Dave, one last thing for you. Although I am not doubting the possibility of faulty wiring on the ballast resistor, why would it only happen when the car is hot?

That would tend to point away from the ballast issue. Typically that causes a problem if the battery is low. I probably missed that comment a dozen posts back.

[jrandle]

That would tend to point away from the ballast issue. Typically that causes a problem if the battery is low. I probably missed that comment a dozen posts back.

I would agree with you, but it was a brand new battery. The thought of parasitic drain crossed my mind, but that doesn't explain why there is enough current in the battery to start the car when its cold and a lack of current when it's hot.

[NightFlyer]

I would agree with you, but it was a brand new battery. The thought of parasitic drain crossed my mind, but that doesn't explain why there is enough current in the battery to start the car when its cold and a lack of current when it's hot.

Just because a battery is new doesn't mean that it's good - it could be defective.

I never assume that just because something is new, means that it's good and functioning properly - especially when it comes to car parts. While the probability of a defective product is low, it's always possible that you're the 1 in 1,000,000 guy that ended up with one.

That said, it sounds like you have an ignition issue, that's only evident when things are warm/hot. Heat creates electrical resistance. I'm wondering if a wire isn't getting too hot because it's not routed correctly?

Heat also causes things to expand/swell. A loose ground could be being pushed away from making good contact when things are hot.

I'd check the wiring/grounds.

Also, put a meter on the battery to confirm that you're getting a good output when hot. The alternator might not be charging the battery when/if it gets hot - could be a bad alternator/regulator.

Have you ever let it sit 6+ hours after a no-start without jumping it, and then trying to start it normally? Does it fire if you do this?

Best of luck!t

[jrandle]

Just because a battery is new doesn't mean that it's good - it could be defective.

I never assume that just because something is new, means that it's good and functioning properly - especially when it comes to car parts. While the probability of a defective product is low, it's always possible that you're the 1 in 1,000,000 guy that ended up with one.

That said, it sounds like you have an ignition issue, that's only evident when things are warm/hot. Heat creates electrical resistance. I'm wondering if a wire isn't getting too hot because it's not routed correctly?

Heat also causes things to expand/swell. A loose ground could be being pushed away from making good contact when things are hot.

I'd check the wiring/grounds.

Also, put a meter on the battery to confirm that you're getting a good output when hot. The alternator might not be charging the battery when/if it gets hot - could be a bad alternator/regulator.

Have you ever let it sit 6+ hours after a no-start without jumping it, and then trying to start it normally? Does it fire if you do this?

Best of luck!t

I have let it sit overnight after the event and it starts right up. Also, could some take a good picture of their ballast resistor so i can ensure mine is wired correctly. Please include the relay in the photo.

[Ron]

Ballast-Relay Wiring in Resources Section (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?40-All-Wiring-Schematics&p=66530&viewfull=1#post66530)

[hmcelraft]

That relay provides the added voltage during starting (assuming all is wired properly). New or not it may be losing contact when hot because of faulty points or weak internal coil.

[Ron]

If you suspect the relay, you can temporarily bypass it by replacing the UY wire with the WY wire...Good for an emergency or testing.

Measuring voltage at the coil while cranking and a look at the spark makes the most sense to me...

[NightFlyer]

I also forgot to mention a new Bosch Coil installed.

As I'm thinking that your problem is ignition related:

What kind of Bosch coil? Some of the newer Bosch coils that are made in Mexico and Brazil have caused a heap of trouble for the VW guys. If it's not a Made in Germany or Made in Spain Bosch blue coil with a red top, then try swapping it out for one - if you still have your old coil, swap it back in.

If that doesn't change anything, then check your plug wires, especially the coil to distributor wire. Make sure that all the wires are properly connected to the distributor. If you have your old wires, try swapping them back in.

[Spittybug]

I would also suspect the coil......