Car show award display protocol?

[Hokie]

OK so I'm asking because I honestly don't know - don't laugh or you might hurt my feelings. :) What's the protocol around displaying past awards when you show your classic at a car show? I mean, I've seen some folks display every award they've ever won, either in front of their car, in the trunk or even in the engine bay. I've seen other folks not bring any of their past awards to shows. Are you more likely to sway judges toward giving you an award if they see that you've won awards in the past? Is it ever "tacky" to display your awards? I know this is all a matter of personal opinion and preference, but I'd like to hear the preference and opinions of others. Thanks.

[Jonathan]

Cynical opinion? ... so few muscle car guys that are doing the voting will ever vote for the DeLorean, that winning a trophy and determining where or when to show it isn't going to be a problem for many of us.

Somewhat serious opinion? ... go with humility. Perhaps show one if you have a favorite because of some personal significance or maybe it was the most recent. I would avoid the "highschool star athlete trophy case" look though. Most of the cars I see that stand out as being amazing examples of a brand don't need to be showing a lot of trophies that they've won to know that they are winning them.

EDIT: as an example, I haven't seen either Patrick C's or Michael's DeLorean in person, but based on the photos, if you were to see either of those beside a bunch of other DMCs (including my own) and no one had any trophies on display, you would still conclude they are the ones likely winning just from the pristine appearance and attention to detail.

Less is more.

[NightFlyer]

My car has won three awards under my ownership, two of which were won last year.

I've never hauled any of the awards around to other shows that I attend - in fact, I can't even find the very first award that my car ever won (packed away in a box somewhere).

While winning an award is nice, it's also a mixed bag - especially if it's one of those big gaudy plasticized gold things. They're just another piece of junk that you're now charged with figuring out what to do with it.

The way I see it, my car is awesome enough that it requires no accessories for a show appearance, and I don't like anything that distracts or takes away from my car. :cool1:

Besides, you know what they say about those guys who haul around and display their awards at every show and what they're compensating for, don't you :wink:

[Mark D]

I haven't taken my DeLorean to many car shows but I attend quite a few in general and it seems to be pretty mixed with how trophys and awards are displayed. Normally I don't see that many because the shows I attend are pretty low key but at larger shows I see more awards on display.

If I do see them displayed it's usually in the trunk next to vintage literature for the car, old adverts, or a restoration book of photos. Sometimes I see them in the back seat or at the front of the car next to a display board with details about the car.

I don't consider it tacky if the person is displaying one or two awards and they are awards like "best in class" or "best of show" etc. "4th place best unrestored hub caps" would probably be better left at home. It's actually a fun game to play if you're bored at a car show to find the dumbest award that someone has on display.

My personal opinion is that the current condition of the car matters too...if you're going to be displaying awards then the car must look as though it's deserving of winning those awards as it sits. If the year is 2014 and the person has a trophy on display from 2001 then the car should still look like it could win that same award today. I've seen a few rough cars with dated awards on display and it kind of reflects poorly on the owner that they let their once nice award winning car get run down.

I'm interested in hearing some other people's opinions too.

[Nicholas R]

Personally, I've always thought it was tacky to show awards from other shows. Or when I talk to a car owner at a show and they tell me about all the awards the car has won. I care about what's inside the car and what it took to get the car to this point.

[DeLorean03]

My awards are on the wall of the garage - the car's home. I don't ever take any of them out with me. In fact, I haven't hung or displayed any of them since 2004-2005. I finally - just 2 weeks ago - put them up. I am super-picky about shows I go to, so awards are....they're nice because it shows people love the car, but I am not dying and chomping at the bit to win. If I do though, it is a nice feeling.

[Dangermouse]

I always presumed it was a way of subconsciously influencing the judges - hey look at me, other judges think I'm great, won't you too?

[David T]

I always presumed it was a way of subconsciously influencing the judges - hey look at me, other judges think I'm great, won't you too?

Most car show awards are based on popularity, they really don't mean much except as a way for offering the participants some reward for showing up and paying to get in. IMHO the only ones that REALLY matter are the ones awarded in a Delorean Concours. There you are competing against your peers, not hot rods or typical production vehicles, some of which were done by professional shops. There is another coming up this June in Ohio for those that are interested at DCS. As for displaying awards at car shows, some do and some don't. If a car is good you don't have to lug all of that junk around, judges will see your car and pick it if it is really good.

[Hokie]

There was a 1985 "survivor" Corvette at today's car show that displayed every award it's ever won, some dating back 10 years. I thought that was a bit much. The "top 30" cars all received awards. I was swarmed by spectators, commenting on the uniqueness of the car comparatively speaking, taking pictures; I mean, I got more attention than any other car. The judges didn't even look at it. No award today!

[Iznodmad]

Unfortunately, that very thing happens a lot, especially in our neck of the woods. If you are at a show dominated by muscle cars and rods, the Delorean will never get an award. I avoid those types of venues and stick with European based car shows or just basic cruise ins. Or DCS of course. Better luck next time.

[Hokie]

Participated in my second car show of the season this year, and won my first award of 2014. It was the "Kid's Choice Award." Never been to a show with this award and I thought going in I might have a good shot at it, and sure enough! Cool trophy too - lucite. Pretty slick. So now I have 2 plaques (Best of Show and People's Choice) and a lucite trophy. My next goal is one of those traditional 2 foot or taller gaudy trophies that usually only go to muscle cars. :)

[NightFlyer]

MHO the only ones that REALLY matter are the ones awarded in a Delorean Concours. There you are competing against your peers, not hot rods or typical production vehicles, some of which were done by professional shops.

Actually, you don't compete against your peers at all - you're judged against the manual. And they no longer allow for deviations from the manual, even if you have fully documented and verified proof (such as the non-VIN correct alterations or non-factory correct repairs that occurred to my car while at the QAC). Both Chris D and Jeff S denounced the judging during the awards ceremony for failing to recognize that the QAC was a part of the 'factory'/corporate process, yelling out at them when they were describing my car to the audience. And quite frankly, I fully agree with them. The QAC's were a crucial and unique part of DMC's history, thus for the alleged most prestigious judging standards to essentially ignore that they even existed, well, it seems like a slap in the face to their efforts in making the car what it was, or at least that's how I see it anyway.

While I can see and appreciate making the manual the final word, what I DON'T like about concours (and actually really HATE, which BTW, has nothing to do with my car in particular, but rather the equity of the overall process), is 1) how certain 'connected' owners are able to effectuate changes to the manual (such as how any A/C Delco battery became acceptable ONLY when a certain owner's period correct green dot would no longer take a charge - funny how that works, isn't it); and 2) how the manual often times biases presentability over originality in the scoring - case in point is how I was the only entrant at the last concours who actually had the NCTs on the car, as the point value for having them has been so significantly reduced over the years (for no apparent reason other than some well connected individuals made it happen) that it became only a negligible deduction to not have them - honestly, what kind of CRAP is that?

Personally, I find both of those faults to be pretty serious and speaking freely, it's pure HORSESHIT IMHO, as it removes the equity that they claim to try to be obtaining and instead biases in favor of connected individuals.

Another thing I DIDN'T like is how they referenced back to old entrants, such as the 125 mile car that only received a single point deduction. While that's all fine and dandy for that car, as I'm sure it was beautiful car, for all they told us, that score could have been awarded when the judging standards were substantially different and when deviations from the manual were actually permitted provided you had verifiable documented proof and the head judge's assent. Thus, honestly what's the point about bringing up past entrants/contenders, as those car were judged according to a completely different standard?!?! The only reason to do so in the first place is to offer a basis of comparison (which is exactly what they were using it for in referencing it at the awards ceremony), but what comparison does it honestly provide when the judging standards were completely different (of course, they didn't bother to explain the changes that had occurred to the standards since that car was judge, or even mention that things had changed)? Personally, I find doing that somewhat insulting to the current entrants, but that's just MHO.

Which brings up the last thing I dislike about concours - it punishes those who actually use/drive their cars. If they wanted to make it more fair, and actually encourage the use of the car, they'd handicap the scores by mileage - at least as far as the presentability portion of the scoring is concerned. Otherwise, it's going to always favor the museum / professional collection trailer queens - and everyone knows this. They complained about wanting to keep the marque certification alive and how they needed to encourage more owners to compete in them, but under the current criteria, it's somewhat limiting IMHO. That's why I personally think handicapping the score premised on mileage in regards to presentability only (and NOT originality or functionality) would possibly encourage more people to enter their cars. After all, there has to be a few other goof balls out there who are willing to drive originality as I am, isn't there?

Anyway, while concours can be a fun class to participate in, it's also rife with political bullshit and is not without its faults.

Thus, IMHO, a certified stainless award isn't any better than a best of show, a people's choice, or any other award for that matter.

Maybe if they would have started a little more objectively from the beginning, and not allow certain connected individuals from manipulating the manual, I'd have more respect for the concours certifications, but as it stands, they still have a ways to go before it reaches such a level of objectivity and equity, IMHO.

End of rant.

[skipwater]

Anyway, while concours can be a fun class to participate in, it's also rife with political bullshit and is not without its faults.

Thus, IMHO, a certified stainless award isn't any better than a best of show, a people's choice, or any other award for that matter.


+1

[David T]

+1

While the rules may seem arbitrary at times there are reasons behind them. Perhaps you would like to participate in the rulemaking process. My complaint is that the venders have too big a say in it, this should be among the owners and the clubs only. As for the QAC issues, unless you have some kind of documentation to prove or disprove items there is no way to know changes were made at the QAC or by a PO. Ken K had a lot deducted for undercoating. The factory never did it and his claim that it was done at the QAC had no documentation. (The '83's have a LOT of Concours issues!). The DMA has had speakers who worked at the QAC in NJ and they always told us there was no recordkeeping and no respect as to vin and running changes. The only thing that mattered was to get a certain vin in good enough condition to ship out to a particular dealer on that truck on that day. They admitted to picking parts off of some cars just to put others together. If the judges were to accept that things were done at the QAC without some kind of proof anyone could claim anything was done at the QAC. The decision was made that the cars are to be judged as they left the factory, not when they left the QAC or the selling dealer. Anyone entering Concours needs to be familiar with the rules BEFORE they enter so there is no complaint during or after the process. By entering the process you are agreeing to be bound by the rules as they exist. Indirectly you are judged against your peers, the rules were written based on previous Concours and how the car is supposed to be based on how fine, low mileage, original owner's cars appear to have been made. From that is created a benchmark that cars are judged against. In some instances allowances are made for safety such as tires and recalls. BTW this is serious stuff. This sets the standard for a #1 condition car and from that the value. Appraisers, insurance companies, auction houses all use this to set the value for that #1 car and deduct from that to value any particular car. Having a documented Concours winner can have an effect on the value of a particular car too. As for driven cars, there is another class for them. For any car Marque, a Concours creates legitimacy and standards of excellence.

[DMCMW Dave]

......... - honestly, what kind of CRAP is that?

Personally, I find both of those faults to be pretty serious and speaking freely, it's pure HORSESHIT IMHO, as it removes the equity that they claim to try to be obtaining and instead biases in favor of connected individuals.

...............
Which brings up the last thing I dislike about concours - it punishes those who actually use/drive their cars. If they wanted to make it more fair, and actually encourage the use of the car, they'd handicap the scores by mileage - at least as far as the presentability portion of the scoring is concerned. Otherwise, it's going to always favor the museum / professional collection trailer queens - and everyone knows this. They complained about wanting to keep the marque certification alive and how they needed to encourage more owners to compete in them, but under the current criteria, it's somewhat limiting IMHO. ...............

Anyway, while concours can be a fun class to participate in, it's also rife with political bullshit and is not without its faults.

Thus, IMHO, a certified stainless award isn't any better than a best of show, a people's choice, or any other award for that matter.


While the rules may seem arbitrary at times there are reasons behind them. Perhaps you would like to participate in the rulemaking process. My complaint is that the venders have too big a say in it,...........

True - (I'm not part of the committee but am familiar with it) the committee is always looking for input and new participants, and has found that prior contestants are typically a good source of the information and philosophical discussion. The committee has been distanced quite a bit from the vendors at this point, so feel free to volunteer directly with the group.

Name calling isn't helpful, but getting involved in the process is.

[NightFlyer]

The DMA has had speakers who worked at the QAC in NJ and they always told us there was no recordkeeping and no respect as to vin and running changes.

WRONG.

Chris Duvall from the Troy QAC did keep many records on many cars, including mine. Not to mention that he was present at the show and was more than happy to personally verify everything that he did to my car while it was there and under his stewardship.

Tony Swann organized all of Chris' records from the Troy QAC and publicized them here:

http://www.deloreanpogs.com/

As far as documentation/verification goes, it doesn't get much better than the horses mouth, at least IMHO. And yet, the judges insisted that they were no longer allowing even documented/verified changes, thus all the QAC changes made to my car were deducted by the judges.

Just because some don't have documentation/verification, that doesn't make it right to deduct from those of us who do - I had the guy who personally did it to my car present at the show, with his records, ready and willing to take a sworn oath as to the legitimacy of the QAC changes to my car, but the judges weren't interested. Chris and Jeff both felt like it was a slap in the face to their efforts, and I for one fully and personally agree with them. It's BULLSHIT no matter how you look at it or attempt to justify it, David.

For those who have documented/certified and verifiable proof of QAC changes, such exceptions should be permitted. After all, isn't the investigatory/historical process, tracking down and obtaining information about your car and its history, supposed to be a part of the concours experience? It takes time/effort/expenses to do that, and instead of rewarding such efforts, they're disregarded. And you know that it's solely because certain connected owners are either lazy or came up empty when investigating their cars - it's all personal/political as opposed to being fully objective and equitable.


Indirectly you are judged against your peers, the rules were written based on previous Concours and how the car is supposed to be based on how fine, low mileage, original owner's cars appear to have been made. From that is created a benchmark that cars are judged against.

WRONG.

The judges told me that in the past, they allowed for documented/verifiable changes so long as the head judge assented to the authenticity of the proofs presented. But the head judge wouldn't even look at my proofs, because he said that they were no longer allowing for such - despite the FACT that I had the BEST proof of probably any competitor who had ever requested an allowance/exception.

Without 100% consistency on this matter over all concours certifications, how can you even attempt to claim that it's all consistent and equitable????

Not to mention that point values of certain things have changed over time (battery, tires, etc), whereby presentability has superseded the importance of originality in many cases. Again, without 100% consistency on this, there's no equity in the process. To attempt to claim otherwise is not just irrational and illogical, but also futile (unless you're an idiot).

Also in the past, you simply judge against other competitors as opposed to being judged against the manual - that's not consistent with how they conduct judging now.

Thus to compare the results of a car that was judged in 2000 to a the results of a car that was judge in 2014, you CANNOT objectively assert that such judging is in any way representing a fair comparison between those two cars, as the standards and scoring by which they were judged is completely different. Thus of what real value is old certifications?

As there hasn't been consistency throughout, it has resulted in the value of the certification being reduced to a 'mickey mouse' status, IMHO, which is why I don't personally value it any more than any other award or trophy.

If insurance houses knew all this, and were as objective as I am, I'm certain that they'd agree with me. Proof is in the pudding though, and the FACT that most insurers have no idea how to assess/evaluate the true fair or market values of our cars based on condition is indicative of the notion that they're not taking the concours seriously, because quite frankly, it hasn't been consistent and has allowed itself to be compromised by political and personal agendas of certain individuals.


In some instances allowances are made for safety such as tires and recalls.

And that's fair?

What about the guy who's willing to drive on his NCT's? I'm proving it's possible to do so safely, and have them look great - in fact all the judges at the last concours remarked as to how my NCTs were the "nicest that they had ever seen." And yet, I only received nominal points for them. THAT'S BULLSHIT. It takes a lot more effort to preserve something than it does to simply replace with something new, not to mention a lot more faith / tolerance for risk to actually continue to use such items. And yet, instead of rewarding those efforts, they make it so that entrants can freely replace their tires and not have to worry about any major point deductions. It's WRONG in regards to the spirit of the concours (which amongst other marques anyway has always preferenced originality over presenability) no matter how you look at it.


BTW this is serious stuff. This sets the standard for a #1 condition car and from that the value. Appraisers, insurance companies, auction houses all use this to set the value for that #1 car and deduct from that to value any particular car. Having a documented Concours winner can have an effect on the value of a particular car too. As for driven cars, there is another class for them. For any car Marque, a Concours creates legitimacy and standards of excellence.

It could be if it were more 1) equitable, and 2) consistent. But the fact of the matter is that it hasn't been, which is why many insurers ignore it. But they do it to themselves by allowing certain individuals to alter the rules for their own personal benefit.

Otherwise, explain to me how it was that the rules concerning the battery were ONLY changed when a certain owner's (whom I won't name here) era correct green dot would no longer take a charge, now permitting the presence of any A/C Delco battery without a deduction. You're going to try and tell me that wasn't a political decision? Yeah, if you believe that.... well, there's a bridge I'd like to sell you.

Or how about when owner's such as yourself petitioned to lower the point values on the tires, just because you didn't want to use your NCTs any longer. That was good for you, but diminished awarding the efforts of guys like me who are willing to still use the NCTs (which I'm doing without issue thank you very much - 1,000 miles during DCS alone, and regardless of anything that you may say about MY TIRES, they're just as safe as any modern tire and probably more safe than a new set of Chinese made tires).

Instead, allowing a handicap for presentability only (not originality or functionality) based on mileage would be a much more fair, historically consistent, and equitable approach. But you guys didn't want that. Instead, you allowed for this piece-meal politically motivated BS approach which has acted to DESTROY and INVALIDATE the historical consistency of the marque program to such a degree that most insurers aren't at all concerned about it.

End of rant.

BTW - Nothing I write should ever be taken personally, as I don't intended any of my writings to ever be personal. I'm just brutally honest in regards to expressing my opinions/perspectives :smile:

[NightFlyer]

Name calling isn't helpful, but getting involved in the process is.

True that - I just get worked up about these things, as you're all too familiar with :biggrin:

But I think I make a lot of good points.

I'll look into getting in touch with the committee :thumbup:

[Rich W]

True - (I'm not part of the committee but am familiar with it) the committee is always looking for input and new participants, and has found that prior contestants are typically a good source of the information and philosophical discussion. The committee has been distanced quite a bit from the vendors at this point, so feel free to volunteer directly with the group.

Name calling isn't helpful, but getting involved in the process is.

A few years ago, myself and Mike M. (from DMC MW) participated in a new designation of car show, associated with the Bloomington Gold events.

The show was called the Survivor Car Show and the judging was based on originality and operating the vehicle in as original condition as possible.

It's now called the Survivor Collector Car Show (looking for a new date and new location) http://www.survivorcollectorcar.com/

After the show, Mike and I discussed the possibility of adding a Survivor designation to the DMC Concours (discussed with a few Concours judges),
but as Dave has noted, it does take a lot of time and effort to add such a designation and then formulate rules on how to judge this classification.

I think Josh would enjoy this classification within the DMC Concours. The Survivor cars were required to drive into the Survivor Collector Car Show.

[NightFlyer]

A few years ago, myself and Mike M. (from DMC MW) participated in a new designation of car show, associated with the Bloomington Gold events.

The show was called the Survivor Car Show and the judging was based on originality and operating the vehicle in as original condition as possible.

It's now called the Survivor Collector Car Show (looking for a new date and new location) http://www.survivorcollectorcar.com/

After the show, Mike and I discussed the possibility of adding a Survivor designation to the DMC Concours (discussed with a few Concours judges),
but as Dave has noted, it does take a lot of time and effort to add such a designation and then formulate rules on how to judge this classification.

I think Josh would enjoy this classification within the DMC Concours. The Survivor cars were required to drive into the Survivor Collector Car Show.

MIKEY LIKES IT :thumbup: :biggrin:

http://cdn.newsday.com/polopoly_fs/1.4253749.1353647432!/httpImage/image.JPG_gen/derivatives/display_600/image.JPG

[David T]

MIKEY LIKES IT :thumbup: :biggrin:

http://cdn.newsday.com/polopoly_fs/1.4253749.1353647432!/httpImage/image.JPG_gen/derivatives/display_600/image.JPG


These problems and arguments are not unique to Deloreans. If you want to see fur fly go to the Jaguar or Corvette shows! At some events participants are encouraged to provide any documentation they may have before the event so it can be examined and checked without the pressure of trying to award things at a show. Because of the prestige and value that accompanies such awards people can get very emotional. There are generally greater latitudes allowed for safety items like tires, (on older cars safety glass or seatbelts, sealed beam headlights), etc. Done to encourage people to drive the cars and not trailer them all in. It is also unfair that a professional restoration shop can enter and compete against owners that do all of their own work. As in any competition there is some unfairness inherent in the process that cannot be equalized by rules. Also remember the judges are not paid. They are volunteering their time and it is a LOT of time to do the judging. They don't get to enjoy the show and they get no thanks from the participants. As objective as the process tries to be there is always some subjectiveness involved because the judges are human and each makes judgements as to what they see. 1/4 point here, a 1/2 a point there and all of a sudden you are out of the running. When I prepared for my Concours it took me a year to get the car into shape. The competition has gotten a LOT tougher now. The way things are now I might not even place! Many clubs are adding a survivor class to encourage owners to not overdo things and change their car to conform to the concours. A car can only be original once, after that it can only be restored. A survivor class is also important, it is a time capsule of how the cars originally were before they got overrestored.

[Rich_NYS]

As far as documentation/verification goes, it doesn't get much better than the horses mouth, at least IMHO. And yet, the judges insisted that they were no longer allowing even documented/verified changes, thus all the QAC changes made to my car were deducted by the judges.



This is what didn't make sense to me. The dudes were right there, on stage, talking about your car and showing old b&w photos of it. That was pretty cool and I'm sure most everyone else liked it too. If I was a judge, I would've taken that into consideration and wouldn't have deducted points for stuff the QAC guys spoke of in their presentation.

I think driving it there (and drag-racing it) should count for something too, just not sure what. I also believe you had the most historically relevant concours car there....hands-down.

[NightFlyer]

This is what didn't make sense to me. The dudes were right there, on stage, talking about your car and showing old b&w photos of it. That was pretty cool and I'm sure most everyone else liked it too. If I was a judge, I would've taken that into consideration and wouldn't have deducted points for stuff the QAC guys spoke of in their presentation.

I think driving it there (and drag-racing it) should count for something too, just not sure what. I also believe you had the most historically relevant concours car there....hands-down.

Thanks Rich :thumbup:

I knew it was going to be an uphill battle, but I was under the impression that deviations from the manual were still permitted (provided you have documented and verifiable proof) because in the manual, it still states that the head judge can authorize such. However, I was told that was no longer the case. If what I was told and how I was judged is correct, then the manual should accordingly be changed and instead reflect that deviations from the manual are no longer allowed under any circumstances. Why it wasn't changed yet to reflect such just provides fuel for the argument that there may still be some political considerations made for connected individuals, which just wouldn't be very equitable or consistent IMHO.

[Michael]

Thanks Rich :thumbup:

I knew it was going to be an uphill battle, but I was under the impression that deviations from the manual were still permitted (provided you have documented and verifiable proof) because in the manual, it still states that the head judge can authorize such. However, I was told that was no longer the case. If what I was told and how I was judged is correct, then the manual should accordingly be changed and instead reflect that deviations from the manual are no longer allowed under any circumstances. Why it wasn't changed yet to reflect such just provides fuel for the argument that there may still be some political considerations made for connected individuals, which just wouldn't be very equitable or consistent IMHO.

Sounds to me like the judges took on the persona of Judge Dredd and Ed Bernstein.