Charging issue

[Rich_NYS]

-The battery light on the right-hand side of my dash doesn't come on when the key is in any position.
-The voltage gauge shows ~10 volts while running.
-The battery bulb tested OK with a VOM, but I changed it anyway.
-I removed the connector off the alternator; testing with a VOM there is resistance to ground, removing the bulb makes the resistance go away.
-I tested for voltage across the connector that goes to the instrument cluster and get no voltage (across the contacts for the battery bulb.)
-There is voltage on both sides of fuse #5 when the key is in the accessory position.

The most recent oddball occurrence: while I was bleeding the cooling system I had the car jumped to another vehicle so it wouldn't die. After about an hour, I took the car for a test drive and the voltage gauge showed >13 volts the entire time. I parked the car & disconnected the battery, the next morning the battery read 10 volts and the voltage gauge showed the same when I re-connected the battery & started the car.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

[Bitsyncmaster]

You may have a shorted cell in the battery. Do you have a battery charger? Look at the battery voltage with that charger attached.

[Rich_NYS]

You may have a shorted cell in the battery. Do you have a battery charger? Look at the battery voltage with that charger attached.

I don't have a charger, but I have a friend who is bringing one over tonite.

So I hook up the charger & take a voltage reading with a meter (and the battery disconnected from the car?)

[Rich_NYS]

I was thinking of trying this:

I have a 78 series battery in another vehicle. I don't want to swap it out, but what if I jumped it to the battery leads in my car?

That would bypass my battery and would be a quick & dirty test, right?

[DMCMW Dave]

Yes - that would be valid.

You can test the light bulb circuit. Take the light wire off the alternator and ground it. Turn the key on and see if the light comes on. If it does, the light circuit is good and regulator in the alternator is bad.

[Bitsyncmaster]

I don't have a charger, but I have a friend who is bringing one over tonite.

So I hook up the charger & take a voltage reading with a meter (and the battery disconnected from the car?)

Probably would not matter if left in the car, if you do have a shorted cell and charge it you may get some acid boiling so taking it out would be better.

The old amp gauges in old cars would show you a shorted cell before it left you stranded.

[DMCMW Dave]

, if you do have a shorted cell and charge it you may get some acid boiling so taking it out would be better.

.

This is why so many cars have melted carpeting near the battery.

[Rich_NYS]

Thanks guys, the battery in the other vehicle was easy to remove so I swapped it with the one in my car....no change.

Grounding the light wire at the alternator lit the bulb.

Boy, that sure is a skinnyass wire:

27041

Thanks again....much appreciated!

[NightFlyer]

Thanks guys, the battery in the other vehicle was easy to remove so I swapped it with the one in my car....no change.

Grounding the light wire at the alternator lit the bulb.

Boy, that sure is a skinnyass wire:

27041

Thanks again....much appreciated!

Sweet deal - another mystery solved! Looks like your car is going to be ready for DCS :biggrin:

[Rich_NYS]

Sweet deal - another mystery solved! Looks like your car is going to be ready for DCS :biggrin:

I'm still considering it; so far it looks like I'm flying solo, so the option is still on the table.

With these issues that keep popping up, I am a little apprehensive, though. It's been a long time since I've been proficient at roadside repair! :wrenchin:


I'm also more than half-considering towing it with my '03 Durango, it'll cost less than taking a rental out-of-state and I'll get to have my car there.

[Rich_NYS]

I replaced the alternator, but the battery light still doesn't come on with the key in the "on" position (and car not running.)

I checked the circuit again; the light wire reads resistance to ground, and if I ground it the battery light comes on.

I tried a different battery, then a different alternator but no change.

Any thoughts?

[Jonathan]

Do any/all of the other warning lights work? Low fuel, oil pressure, brake, etc.?

[Rich_NYS]

Do any/all of the other warning lights work? Low fuel, oil pressure, brake, etc.?


Door light is the only one that is lit.

There's 3/4 tank of fuel, but the low fuel light did work when I first bought the car (although I can't confirm it still works.)

Brake light bulb & socket is missing.

[Jonathan]

Maybe there is a problem common to the cluster circuit board and the warning lights on the right side?

You could test the fuel light by carefully pulling the fuel sender up and out of the tank to force the float in it to drop down.

[NightFlyer]

1) Did you confirm that the battery light bulb is a 161 and NOT a 194?

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?3709-Battery-light-or-alternator

2) Confirm that your battery connections are making good contact - the side terminals can sometimes be tricky.

3) It's possible that there's a lot of oxidation on the contacts in the instrument cluster that need to be cleaned.

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?6883-Idiot-lights-not-operating

[Rich_NYS]

Maybe there is a problem common to the cluster circuit board and the warning lights on the right side?

Makes sense, I also noticed the R side directional light doesn't work, but the flash & exterior bulb does.



You could test the fuel light by carefully pulling the fuel sender up and out of the tank to force the float in it to drop down.

I'll give it a try...






1) Did you confirm that the battery light bulb is a 161 and NOT a 194?

I didn't, but I'm reasonably certain it is.



2) Confirm that your battery connections are making good contact - the side terminals can sometimes be tricky.

Definitely making good contact.



3) It's possible that there's a lot of oxidation on the contacts in the instrument cluster that need to be cleaned.

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?6883-Idiot-lights-not-operating

I'll try this as well.


I'm going to review the schematic for the gauge cluster so I have a better mental picture. At the alternator, I can read resistance through the light circuit with the bulb in....none with the bulb out. The bulb lights when I ground the light wire at the alternator.

I'm beginning to think I'm getting a good ground with the wire at the alternator, but not where/when the bulb typically gets its ground....gonna review the ground points also.

Thanks guys.....it's gonna be a busy weekend!

[NightFlyer]

I didn't, but I'm reasonably certain it is.

I'd confirm this.

161s and 194s are visually indistinguishable. Often times, a PO installs a 194 in that spot, causing current owners all kinds of headaches...

[D Knight]

Is the wire going into your regulator wired to the correct pin?


-D Knight-

[Ron]

I replaced the alternator, but the battery light still doesn't come on with the key in the "on" position (and car not running.)

I checked the circuit again; the light wire reads resistance to ground, and if I ground it the battery light comes on.

I tried a different battery, then a different alternator but no change.

Any thoughts?Then, assuming a good charged battery and the bulb burns bright (normal), you either have several bad alternators (i.e. the field circuit will not supply ground), or it is "miswired" (i.e. the alternator's main (+) terminal or ground is not getting to the battery). You might try running jumper cables directly to the case and main (+) terminal...

Which alternator?

............

$.02 RE: Bulb
Our alternators need a bulb (or a resistor) for field excitation. If the wattage is too low, the alternator will not start charging, unless it has a self-exciting regulator and/or you rev the engine. The 161 or 194 bulbs will work fine. Most of the D replacement alternators are Delco based, with most of the vehicles using a 194 bulb. (The higher the wattage, the higher the initial field current. )

[Rich_NYS]

Then, assuming a good charged battery and the bulb burns bright (normal), you either have several bad alternators (i.e. the field circuit will not supply ground), or it is "miswired" (i.e. the alternator's main (+) terminal or ground is not getting to the battery). You might try running jumper cables directly to the case and main (+) terminal...

Which alternator?

............

$.02 RE: Bulb
Our alternators need a bulb (or a resistor) for field excitation. If the wattage is too low, the alternator will not start charging, unless it has a self-exciting regulator and/or you rev the engine. The 191 or 194 bulbs will work fine. Most of the D replacement alternators are Delco based, with most of the vehicles using a 194 bulb. (The higher the wattage, the higher the initial field current. )

Saturn alternator, battery is charging but light still isn't on.

I'll look into the alternator wiring, but at the moment my gauge cluster is half-apart so I first want to make sure I have everything cleaned & in working order. I'm finding other lights out, so I think it's an issue not specifically related to the alternator.

Thanks!

[Ron]

Saturn alternator, battery is charging but light still isn't on.

I'll look into the alternator wiring, but at the moment my gauge cluster is half-apart so I first want to make sure I have everything cleaned & in working order. I'm finding other lights out, so I think it's an issue not specifically related to the alternator.

Thanks!
:thumbup:

FWIW- Most Saturns use the 194 for all of its instrument panel lights as well....

[Rich_NYS]

Update:

The battery light still doesn't come on when I turn the key to the "on" position, but the battery has consitently charged properly since I changed the alternator so I do think it was going bad.

The battery bulb does light when I gound the wire at the alternator, but I'm not getting voltage for the battery bulb circuit (referenced to the "stereo ground") at the plug that connects to the cluster....wth?

I got into the cluster a bit, cleaned contacts and checked some traces but haven't found anything related to the issue.

I'm liking what Ron mentioned about a possible "mis-wire" at the alternator and will be checking into that the next time I have the car up (should be this weekend.) I'll post pics of the plug that connects to the alternator.

Thanks,

Rich

[Rich_NYS]

Since the battery light is relevant to the charging circuit, the gauge cluster needs to be plugged in to charge the battery, right?

I had my car running outside for a while; it just died and won't restart, I think the battery is dead. I took the binnacle/gauge cluster out to remove the dash and didn't think to put it back.

So, I have the charger on now and will see how things go in the AM.

[Ron]

Since the battery light is relevant to the charging circuit, the gauge cluster needs to be plugged in to charge the battery, right?.
If you rev the engine once or twice, it might start charging...it depends on the exact type of voltage regulator it has.

[Rich_NYS]

The car started after being on the charger overnight, and I put the binnacle back in place while I work on the dash.

I again grounded the wire from the plug on the alternator (to the alternator itself) and the battery light comes on when I turn the key to the "on" position.

Here are a few pics of the plug, is ther anything that can be wired wrong or can this be the wrong plug? I noticed the alternator has about 4 contacts where the pliug connects.

Also, that larger cutoff wire isn't relevant, right?

27746 27747 27748 27749

[Ron]

I think I see the problem, but first:
Is that a CS-130 or a CS130D alternator? If so:
Did you cut the big wire off?
Was the smaller wire already in the 2nd hole?

EDIT (For possible reference):
27763
27762

[Rich_NYS]

I think I see the problem, but first:
Is that a CS-130 or a CS130D alternator? If so:
Did you cut the big wire off?
Was the smaller wire already in the 2nd hole?



Thanks Ron,

It's a P8107-3 from Advance Auto, not sure how/if that correlates to CS-130/CS130D.

I didn't cut the big wire off, it was that way when I got the car. It's cut off with a short section of wire left, not connected to anything.

Yes, the smaller wire was already in the 2nd hole.



Update: after reading your post I found Steve's post where he mentions a Saturn alternator needs a CS130 pigtail. It appears that's the issue, I need to get a CS130 pigtail.

Thanks for your help with this...much appreciated!

[Ron]

P8107-3 is a CS-130 w/ external fan...
FYI, there's nothing special about the plug (nothing hidden inside like some) -- You can move the small wire over one slot and replace the end for the large wire (it connects to the main alternator terminal/stud).
Refer to diagram above.

:thumbup:

[Rich_NYS]

P8107-3 is a CS-130 w/ external fan...
FYI, there's nothing special about the plug (nothing hidden inside like some) -- You can move the small wire over one slot and replace the end for the large wire (it connects to the main alternator terminal/stud).
Refer to diagram above.

:thumbup:






BAM!

Ron, you nailed it man.

I was able to take apart the plug and move the wire, the battery light works now. If I had looked closely at the plug I would've seen it is printed with letters and there's an "L" in the 3rd position where I now have the light wire. I wonder how long the PO labored over that one before giving up..lol!

That's my last electrical gremlin....thanks for the help, everybody!

(BTW, I removed the large wire for now, is it important enough to replace after I fix it with an eyelet? It wasn't connected to anything when I bought the car.)

[Flash66]

Saturn alternator, battery is charging but light still isn't on.

I'll look into the alternator wiring, but at the moment my gauge cluster is half-apart so I first want to make sure I have everything cleaned & in working order. I'm finding other lights out, so I think it's an issue not specifically related to the alternator.

Thanks!

Bill Robertson has a great ground wire chart posted that he created. Maybe take a look there as well.


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[NightFlyer]

Ron is da man :biggrin: