Transaxle flange removal problem.

[Rich_NYS]

I'm replacing the output shaft lip seal.

The punch I used for the drive pin was a bit too small and it got wedged inside the drive pin, then it broke off.

The pin is about halfway out, but I'm not having any luck driving it further. I think I really need to get that broken piece out of the center.

I rotated the axle flange so the pin is facing down and I'm now trying to drive the broken piece out from the opposite direction(so it comes out the same way it went in.)

So far, I'm still jammed....any thoughts?

[NightFlyer]

I'm replacing the output shaft lip seal.

The punch I used for the drive pin was a bit too small and it got wedged inside the drive pin, then it broke off.

The pin is about halfway out, but I'm not having any luck driving it further. I think I really need to get that broken piece out of the center.

I rotated the axle flange so the pin is facing down and I'm now trying to drive the broken piece out from the opposite direction(so it comes out the same way it went in.)

So far, I'm still jammed....any thoughts?

The punch broke off in the pin?!?!

What kind of cheap Chinese tools are you using :nono:

For future reference, here's a made in USA Dasco branded set of forged (not cast) punches that I bought from Mendards - the big size worked perfectly on getting the pin out far enough to where I could use an appropriately sized torx/star bit screw driver to finish the job of removal.

http://www.menards.com/main/tools-hardware/hand-tools/chisels-files-punches/4-piece-pin-punch-kit/p-1773288-c-9122.htm

If you have a torx or star bit screw driver (something with a solid flat surface head) that will fit in the hole, use it to drive everything out. If you don't - go buy one and make sure it's made in USA :smile:

Or you could even use an appropriately sized allen wrench that will fit in the hole - just make sure that it's a strong (forged) allen wrench made in USA :smile:

[Rich_NYS]

The punch broke off in the pin?!?!

What kind of cheap Chinese tools are you using :nono:

Craftsman.



If you have a torx or star bit screw driver (something with a solid flat surface head) that will fit in the hole, use it to drive everything out. If you don't - go buy one and make sure it's made in USA :smile:

I actually have been eyeing a torx bit screw driver, that will be my next move.



Or you could even use an appropriately sized allen wrench that will fit in the hole - just make sure that it's a strong (forged) allen wrench made in USA :smile:

I've been using an allen wrench with the bend removed, no luck so far....maybe time to try the torx driver.

Sonofa....!

[NightFlyer]

Sonofa....!

"Grandfather say it never rain every day!"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjLO_CrZRmM

[Rich_NYS]

I felt like I was making good contact against the broken-off piece, just not enough drive. So, I borrowed a BMFH from my neighbor & drove it out....whew!

OK, so now at 8PM I'm where I expected to be at noon...oh well.


How 'bout some input on the following?

-The flange looks really good; is it obvious wether or not it needs to be sleeved, or can't ya really tell with a visual? If I don't need to sleeve it, I'll save the sleeve in case I need to do the other side. (I want to say: "better safe than sorry" but thought I'd ask anyway.)

-The drain & fill plugs are both recessed & square; opposite of yours, Josh (mine are "innies," yours are "outties.") The fill plug is ~5/16" but the drain plug is a hair smaller....does that sound normal or commonplace?

Thanks.....gonna be a late night tonite!

[NightFlyer]

I felt like I was making good contact against the broken-off piece, just not enough drive. So, I borrowed a BMFH from my neighbor & drove it out....whew!

OK, so now at 8PM I'm where I expected to be at noon...oh well.


How 'bout some input on the following?

-The flange looks really good; is it obvious wether or not it needs to be sleeved, or can't ya really tell with a visual? If I don't need to sleeve it, I'll save the sleeve in case I need to do the other side. (I want to say: "better safe than sorry" but thought I'd ask anyway.)

-The drain & fill plugs are both recessed & square; opposite of yours, Josh (mine are "innies," yours are "outties.") The fill plug is ~5/16" but the drain plug is a hair smaller....does that sound normal or commonplace?

Thanks.....gonna be a late night tonite!

Good deal - big hammer to the rescue :biggrin:

1) It's your call on the sleeve. As the driver's side seams to give the most problems (on manual cars anyway - not sure if it's the same for autos or not) as far as leaks are concerned, I'd personally sleeve the driver's side regardless of the actual condition of the flange. Before installing the sleeve though, I'd smear a layer of anaerobic on the flange, so that the anaerobic acts like a sealer/adhesive between the flange and installed sleeve.

2) You have an auto trans, right? So you just needed to drain the final drive. Interesting that the plugs used were that different. I've never actually looked at the plugs on an auto car in detail, thus I've no basis for comparison. Sorry, but I couldn't tell ya one way or the other. I believe that Michael recently drained and refilled the final drive on his car, so you could always ask him, or perhaps Dave S will chime in with some good info on this.

Don't feel bad - when I did the job the first time, it took me about 7 hours total, including garage/tool clean up. I accidentally hooked the bearing shield while removing the old seal and royally messed it up, and it took a while to get it bent back into proper shape. While I haven't had my car on the road yet since completing the job, it hasn't leaked any gear oil while continuing to sit on jack stands. I hope to have everything else I wanted to get done on it finished up in a few weeks, so then I can finally put her on the ground and start driving it for the season :smile:

[DMCMW Dave]

The innies vs outies means you have an automatic. They are the same size as the engine drains 8 mm. Clean the rust off the flanges, if they are smooth where the seal is going to wear they are ok, but if rough from rust they will leak.

[NightFlyer]

The innies vs outies means you have an automatic. They are the same size as the engine drains 8 mm. Clean the rust off the flanges, if they are smooth where the seal is going to wear they are ok, but if rough from rust they will leak.

Can't beat that advice :thumbup:

Question for Dave - I've noticed that on the manuals, the driver's side tends to cause the most problems as far as leaks are concerned. Is the same true for autos? Or are my observations in error?

[Ron]

You should be able to see any grove cut in the flange that would cause a problem. Odds are that a new one would not ride (wear) in the same place anyway, especially if it is not made by the same manufacturer.

Yes, innies and outies are common, some magnetic too. It's probably an 8mm Square drive (most people grind down allan or torx bit).

EDIT: I just ordered a set that all match for my auto just to be done with the bs.

[NightFlyer]

You should be able to see any grove cut in the flange that would cause a problem. Odds are that a new one would not ride (wear) in the same place anyway, especially if it is not made by the same manufacturer.

Yes, innies and outies are common, some magnetic too. It's probably an 8mm Square drive (most people grind down allan or torx bit).

I've always used a piece of 5/16" square stock on the oil pan drain plug.

[Ron]

Yep, same difference (0.00246063" to be exact ;-)

[Rich_NYS]

I've always used a piece of 5/16" square stock on the oil pan drain plug.

I ground down a piece of 5/6" square stock to get it to fit in the drain plug, but that sob is stuck! If the drain plug is supposed to be (or once was) the same size as the fill plug, it is really boogered-up. I'm rapidly leaning toward leaving the drain plug as-is.

I got the seal out and it's not OEM, so I'm going to sleeve the flange even though it looks really good. I'm thinking there's a reason the replacement seal leaked, so I'll hedge my bet and sleeve it in case there's something funky going on w/the flange.....does that make any sense?

FWIW, the gear oil that's leaking out looks mighty fresh so I'm thinking it's been kept up to level (and I won't feel as bad if I don't drain it.)

Thanks for all the help!

[David T]

Yep, same difference (0.00246063" to be exact ;-)

You only have to sleeve the flange if it is scored or ridged. If the surface where the seal rides is smooth and flat the problem is probably the carrier bearing adjustment is loose allowing the output flange to wobble destroying the seal. It is a big deal to readjust that, you have to take the transaxle out and take it apart to properly set the bearings. Do NOT touch that large spanner nut, take the seal out without removing or disturbing it.

[Rich_NYS]

You only have to sleeve the flange if it is scored or ridged. If the surface where the seal rides is smooth and flat the problem is probably the carrier bearing adjustment is loose allowing the output flange to wobble destroying the seal. It is a big deal to readjust that, you have to take the transaxle out and take it apart to properly set the bearings. Do NOT touch that large spanner nut, take the seal out without removing or disturbing it.

Oh....I already removed it to clean it...looks great now! (just kidding -lol...I ain't touchin' it.)

Would sleeving the flange help compensate, wreck the seal faster, or have no effect?

[NightFlyer]

Oh....I already removed it to clean it...looks great now! (just kidding -lol...I ain't touchin' it.)

Would sleeving the flange help compensate, wreck the seal faster, or have no effect?

If the output flange is loose and wobbly, sleeving the flange won't make any difference in the long run. You'll notice over on the Today 'how to' thread that Luke S. posted that he eventually had to tighten the tensioning nut a few degrees after centering the output shaft in order to finally solve his problems. I may have to do the same - that remains to be seen. While you're not supposed to do this unless you're completely tearing it down and resetting the tolerances properly as David said, it hasn't caused any ill effects on Luke's car, and he has had his that way for the last two years.

It's not something that I'd do as a precautionary measure though. After you're done with the seal job, you're just going to have to see if it's still a problem or not in the future, and how long the problem takes to resurface if it does. Based on that, you'll then know if you want to try upping the tension on the adjustment nut a few degrees. I'm right there in that same boat with you :smile:

Best of luck!

[Ron]

Good deal - big hammer to the rescue :biggrin:

1) It's your call on the sleeve. As the driver's side seams to give the most problems (on manual cars anyway - not sure if it's the same for autos or not) as far as leaks are concerned, I'd personally sleeve the driver's side regardless of the actual condition of the flange.$.02
The flange is much harder and will last much longer than a sleeve, so I would not install it if it looks anything like what it sounds like -- save it for the other side...or next time!
If you use an "anaerobic", make sure is specifies that it is for flanges (and that the gap is not out of the specified gap range. Some will flex and you don't wan't that), or you will regret it.

[NightFlyer]

If you use an "anaerobic", make sure is specifies that it is for flanges (and that the gap is not out of the specified gap range. Some will flex and you don't wan't that), or you will regret it.

I have a feeling that there's a story behind this advice....

I used (and recommend) permatex anaerobic gasket maker, which states "noncorrosive gasketing material designed primarily for use on aluminum, iron, and steel flanged mating surfaces," and "fills gaps up to .015," so I hope that it was OK. I didn't use a whole lot and smeared it on (as opposed to beading it on) - and with the way that the sleeve is driven onto the flange, I don't really see it as causing any issues...

But I could be wrong (have been plenty of times in the past)...

[Ron]

I'm thinking there's a reason the replacement seal leaked, so ...Are you saying this is round #2 for the seal? Recently? If so, did you change out the o-ring (and where did it come from)? ...thinking of a couple of oddities we ran into......

[NightFlyer]

Are you saying this is round #2 for the seal? Recently? If so, did you change out the o-ring (and where did it come from)? ...thinking of a couple of oddities we ran into......

His PO changed it at an unknown time in the past, but his gear oil looked relatively clean/fresh.

If the PO used the right kind/size of seal and did the job correctly, then based on those presumptions, it might be worth upping the tension on the adjustment nut a few degrees...

That's your call to make though.

[Ron]

I have a feeling that there's a story behind this advice....

I used (and recommend) permatex anaerobic gasket maker, which states "noncorrosive gasketing material designed primarily for use on aluminum, iron, and steel flanged mating surfaces," and "fills gaps up to .015," so I hope that it was OK. I didn't use a whole lot and smeared it on (as opposed to beading it on) - and with the way that the sleeve is driven onto the flange, I don't really see it as causing any issues...

But I could be wrong (have been plenty of times in the past)...Too many stories on those (mainly at harmonic balancers)...
...just wanted to make sure he was aware that there were different types (sealer/maker/retainer/...).

No worries, since it says "up to" (it will be near zero here ;-). :thumbup:

[NightFlyer]

Not sure what you mean by idler and belt...

We're talking about the final drive in the transaxle...

[Ron]

I'll take a belt of whatever you are having!

[NightFlyer]

I'll take a belt of whatever you are having!

Don't you remember what happened the last we tried that, silly? :clown: :deedledee:

[Ron]

But, of course!!!

[NightFlyer]

But, of course!!!

We both know that I still have the 'love bites' to prove it :biggrin:

[Ron]

Ok - OK! I promise not to bring any wildlife this time! (killsport)

[NightFlyer]

Ok - OK! I promise not to bring any wildlife this time! (killsport)

Let's not forget that I'm the one who had to rehab that poor little hamster....

[Ron]

But of course!!!

LMAO

EDIT: CLEANUP ON THREAD 9695

[Rich_NYS]

Mission completion....thanks everybody.

Before & after:

27130 27131


(I'm planning to do a better cleanup job when I get time to raise the car in my driveway & use a pressure washer.)