Car won't start! What else should I do? :)

[JohnZ]

Hello there! While some mechanical work is being performed by me and my fellow assistant (brakes, sway bar), I would like to solve this riddle.

Car always started fine on cold temperatures (I know I have to replace the fuel accumulator for the hot starts) but lately while showing the car to a friend it suddendly died after 5 seconds of fine idling chant. Then any attempt to start the engine resulted in continuous cranking. Now what I've done until now:

1) surfing old "cold start issues" threads in here;

2) testing the RPM relay (found dead);

3) letting the pump prime by means of a paper clip. Try then, just crank.

4) checking all the electrical connections in the engine (particularly on the coil), try then, no start.

5) swapping the plugs between WUR and CSV, or unplugging CSV. Just cranks over and over.

What should I try then? I might think about checking the right grounds or test some wire with the tester.

Am I in the right path?

:)

[DMCMW Dave]

Hello there! While some mechanical work is being performed by me and my fellow assistant (brakes, sway bar), I would like to solve this riddle.

Car always started fine on cold temperatures (I know I have to replace the fuel accumulator for the hot starts) but lately while showing the car to a friend it suddendly died after 5 seconds of fine idling chant. Then any attempt to start the engine resulted in continuous cranking. Now what I've done until now:

1) surfing old "cold start issues" threads in here;

2) testing the RPM relay (found dead);

3) letting the pump prime by means of a paper clip. Try then, just crank.

4) checking all the electrical connections in the engine (particularly on the coil), try then, no start.

5) swapping the plugs between WUR and CSV, or unplugging CSV. Just cranks over and over.

What should I try then? I might think about checking the right grounds or test some wire with the tester.

Am I in the right path?

:)

You didn't mention the ballast resistor connections. I suspect you don't have spark but the next thing would be to pull a plug wire or coil wire and check. If you can make the pump run it's probably not a fuel issue. If the RPM relay does not engage, keep in mind that a dead ignition will not wake it up and the fuel pump will not come on either.

[NightFlyer]

Hello there! While some mechanical work is being performed by me and my fellow assistant (brakes, sway bar), I would like to solve this riddle.

Car always started fine on cold temperatures (I know I have to replace the fuel accumulator for the hot starts) but lately while showing the car to a friend it suddendly died after 5 seconds of fine idling chant. Then any attempt to start the engine resulted in continuous cranking. Now what I've done until now:

1) surfing old "cold start issues" threads in here;

2) testing the RPM relay (found dead);

3) letting the pump prime by means of a paper clip. Try then, just crank.

4) checking all the electrical connections in the engine (particularly on the coil), try then, no start.

5) swapping the plugs between WUR and CSV, or unplugging CSV. Just cranks over and over.

What should I try then? I might think about checking the right grounds or test some wire with the tester.

Am I in the right path?

:)

You have to jumper the pump if your RPM relay is dead, as merely priming it isn't going to start it (at least not to where it doesn't immediately die for lack of fuel).

You need 1) fuel (jump the pump so it's continuously running), 2) air (check the idle speed motor), 3) compression (assume good), and 4) spark (check to make sure you're getting sufficient spark - make sure you didn't knock any wires off the resistor grid, or wire it up incorrectly, as that seems to be a common occurrence).

That's what I've got for you.

Best luck :thumbup:

[JohnZ]

Well what I meant is that I jumped the rpm relay so to get the pump work (generating the bzzzz), but it did not helped. What is curious is that if I put on the rpm relay I do not hear the buzz of the pump (faulty relay, as an electrician friend of mine confirmed... I'm waiting for brand new bitsyncmaster relay) but if I jump it... the pump goes on but the car doesn't start either! mmmmm :umm: (ballast resistor checked, it was my first concern to be honest!! :) )

I am oriented to some sort of electrical problem (as you gently put it too), but don't forget I'm a technical super-novice so I might be mistaken! :D :D

I'll try and do some tests with the tester then. Thanks to both of you! If you come up with something you're welcome!!

:)

[Silverbullet]

one of the things I learned....

Remove the Air Cleaner, and push on the plate... if it is easy to push, you have no fuel pressure, it should be hard to push....

Craig

[NightFlyer]

Confirm that you're actually getting fuel to the fuel distributor.

[JohnZ]

Remove the Air Cleaner, and push on the plate... if it is easy to push, you have no fuel pressure, it should be hard to push....


You won't believe it but... I did that too! There must be some sort of supernatural guidance that made me do it! I did it by "sense" not really because I read it somewhere! Glad it was the right move! ;) any way it was simple to push with the car off (so its mechanism is ok) but I couldn't try that while cranking. Should I do this try? (I was alone :) )

Moreover, I took advantage of it and checked the air filter and it's a bit dirty... I'm going to replace it. :)


Confirm that you're actually getting fuel to the fuel distributor.

You mean that I'm actually getting it (from what you read) or that I have to verify that? :confused0:

[NightFlyer]

You mean that I'm actually getting it (from what you read) or that I have to verify that? :confused0:

I'd verify it, as just because you can hear the pump running doesn't necessarily mean it's pumping. It's easy to do - pull the main line from the filter to the fuel distributor at the distributor, place it in a gas container, then jump the fuel pump on. Should fill about 1 gallon in a minute if everything from the pump to the FD is ok. You can then dump the gas back into the tank. At least then, you'll know for sure that you're getting fuel to the engine.

[Ron]

$.02
Seems pulling an injector and pressing the plate would be simpler, which would tell you that it is getting fuel all the way to the cylinder(s)...
I'd pull a plug wire to confirm spark is getting to the plug(s) first ...

[NightFlyer]

$.02
Seems pulling an injector and pressing the plate would be simpler, which would tell you that it is getting fuel all the way to the cylinder(s)...
I'd pull a plug wire to confirm spark is getting to the plug(s) first ...

That would definitely give a more complete picture of the functionality of the fuel system, though, IMHO, removing a line from the FD is much easier than pulling an injector, as those hold down clips can be a real bitch sometimes.

Confirming spark was already recommended several times above.

[Ron]

That would definitely give a more complete picture of the functionality of the fuel system, though, IMHO, removing a line from the FD is much easier than pulling an injector, as those hold down clips can be a real bitch sometimes.

Confirming spark was already recommended several times above.Really??? ...Bend the end of a coat hanger at 90° and cut it off at a sharp angle ~1/4' long -- You can get one out in 5 seconds...

[JohnZ]

Ok those are good points, now how can I safely (and usefully) check if there is any spark at the plugs? Never done it before, if you have a quick answer I appreciate that... I will browse the web any way! :)

BUT these particular actions sound a bit strange to me, perhaps we are getting close to the point but what leaves me in doubt is that suddendly the car shut off with out any reason... and the engine had been checked and tested by the previous owner just before he sold it to me. (new spark plugs, new spark cables, new starter, new battery, new fuel pump and so on....).

Moreover, I didn't travel a quarter inch since I got the car (but looking forward to that moment! :wink: )... so it's like the engine itself is "new"!

:)

[Ron]

To check the spark at the plug, remove a plug wire that is easy to get to and plug it onto a spare/used plug. Make sure the plug's case is grounded to the block and watch the gap while someone cranks it over. (A fine blue spark = good, yellow-orange = weak ). Or, you can carefully use a long plastic/wood handle Phillips screwdriver and make it jump spark ~1/8" to the block in a pinch...

[David T]

To check the spark at the plug, remove a plug wire that is easy to get to and plug it onto a spare/used plug. Make sure the plug's case is grounded to the block and watch the gap while someone cranks it over. (A fine blue spark = good, yellow-orange = weak ). Or, you can carefully use a long plastic/wood handle Phillips screwdriver and make it jump spark ~1/8" to the block in a pinch...

One way to quickly confirm a fuel problem without any tools is to squirt some Ether into the engine. If it gives you any response then you most likely have a fuel problem. Even with that confirmed a fuel problem could be caused by a problem in the electrical system but at least you know which system is not working.

[JohnZ]

Just thinking... my battery is for sure not fully charged, I assume that now it's at around 70 %. Since I don't drive the car I re-charge the battery from time to time.

Is it possible that jumping the rpm relay is not enough to let the pump run good? I mean, I used one of these http://www.iconhot.com/icon/png/base-software/48/paper-clip-3-black.png to actually let the pump go, but the buzz from the pump is irregular (a two tone bzzzzz)... sounds like the current is not enough to have a good solid running pump. I can't wait to see if the new rpm relay does its job correctly where the clip does not.

Is this theory right or wrong?

[NightFlyer]

Just thinking... my battery is for sure not fully charged, I assume that now it's at around 70 %. Since I don't drive the car I re-charge the battery from time to time.

Is it possible that jumping the rpm relay is not enough to let the pump run good? I mean, I used one of these http://www.iconhot.com/icon/png/base-software/48/paper-clip-3-black.png to actually let the pump go, but the buzz from the pump is irregular (a two tone bzzzzz)... sounds like the current is not enough to have a good solid running pump. I can't wait to see if the new rpm relay does its job correctly where the clip does not.

Is this theory right or wrong?

Jumping the pump provides a direct path for the current. A functioning relay won't make any difference.

Possible that the pump is demanding more current than that which is currently available in the battery, though a fully charged battery should last for at least an hour or two running just the pump.

Charge up the battery to eliminate it from the equation, but it sounds like your fuel pump may be plugged or going bad.

Best luck!

[Silverbullet]

You won't believe it but... I did that too! There must be some sort of supernatural guidance that made me do it! I did it by "sense" not really because I read it somewhere! Glad it was the right move! ;) any way it was simple to push with the car off (so its mechanism is ok) but I couldn't try that while cranking. Should I do this try? (I was alone :) )

Moreover, I took advantage of it and checked the air filter and it's a bit dirty... I'm going to replace it. :)



You mean that I'm actually getting it (from what you read) or that I have to verify that? :confused0:

You said the plate was simple to push with the car off..... It should be hard to push if you have fuel pressure, even with the car off...If it is easy to push, that is bad... no fuel pressure.

Craig

[David T]

Jumping the pump provides a direct path for the current. A functioning relay won't make any difference.

Possible that the pump is demanding more current than that which is currently available in the battery, though a fully charged battery should last for at least an hour or two running just the pump.

Charge up the battery to eliminate it from the equation, but it sounds like your fuel pump may be plugged or going bad.

Best luck!

If the system voltage is too low the ignition ECU won't work. For troubleshooting purposes you really need a fully charged battery.

[JohnZ]

Ok thanks for the tip about the jumper, just wanted to be sure that the current flows correctly.

I'll charge the battery, though the car used to start with this very amount of energy, even less I guess, but it sounds fair to do the tests at full charge. ;)

Yes the air plate simply bounces as you touch it, it's very light and no force is applied to keep it closed. I'm talking about it with the car completely cold and shut off. :umm: it is not right, isn't it?

While cranking I tried to press the throttle pedal too, at different ratios... nothing changes. I think I'll begin from the fuel test NightFlyer suggested me.

Still I don't get why the car shut off after 5 seconds, and the relay was found dead, but still the problem lies somewhere else.... :8ball:

[NightFlyer]

Yes the air plate simply bounces as you touch it, it's very light and no force is applied to keep it closed. I'm talking about it with the car completely cold and shut off. :umm: it is not right, isn't it?

Completely cold, shut off, and sitting for several hours without any activity, then this is normal, as rest pressure is naturally diminished at such a point. Any other time, and there's a problem somewhere in the fuel system.

Given that the pump is making weird noises, I'd want to visually confirm flow to the distributor at a minimum. Or, you can pull an injector and check for flow there, as Ron said. Personally, I think it's harder to pop an injector (even with a customized tool, those clips can still be a PIA - especially with the plug wires and fuel hoses in the way) than it is to pull the main supply line (unbolt the hollow bolt), not to mention that I'm not a big fan of flooding the other cylinders' runners with backed up fuel, as doing so causes carbon build up in the intake in the long term (although doing so occasionally admittedly probably doesn't hurt much of anything, but it's still something I like to avoid if at all possible). I also don't believe that there's any reason at this point to suspect FD or injector failure, thus simply checking flow at the supply line is good enough for your situation.

Also, weird pump noises are also caused by lack of sufficient fuel in the tank. Might seem like a dumb question, but did you make sure that there's sufficient fuel in the tank to start and run the car? Maybe the reason it died while running and won't restart is because it ran out of fuel?

Best luck :thumbup:

[JohnZ]

Completely cold, shut off, and sitting for several hours without any activity, then this is normal, as rest pressure is naturally diminished at such a point. Any other time, and there's a problem somewhere in the fuel system.

In fact I guessed that, that's the reason I specified that the plate was bouncing with the car being stone cold. To me it sounded normal too, anyway I did not test it right after the car died.



Given that the pump is making weird noises

Actually I hear the buzzing noise, but it is not a simple buzz... it's more like a "sine" kind of noise, like "baaa-buuuuuuu-baaaa" :smokelot: and not just "baaaaaaa"... though to explain that is :yoda: BUT, I'm not used to this kind of noise, and it may be a pretty normal sound. Never heard the pump noise (never really concentrated on hearing it) so I can't tell you if it is the right noise at all.


Also, weird pump noises are also caused by lack of sufficient fuel in the tank. Might seem like a dumb question, but did you make sure that there's sufficient fuel in the tank to start and run the car? Maybe the reason it died while running and won't restart is because it ran out of fuel?

That has been my very first area of concern, but I had just filled her up with 5 litres of fuel days before and since I don't start the car so often (and especially... I don't drive it) there was no reason to be out of gas. Nevertheless I put another 5 litres just to be sure, but nothing really happened!

:) :)

[JohnZ]

And the winners are... Davit T and NightFlyer!

:woot:

Here's the story: today I replaced the RPM relay with Dave McKeen's unit. Still no luck in starting the car :swear1: . But I was fine. Also, I smelled some unburst fuel into the cockpit and in the engine bay after a couple of starting attempts.

So I thought about a flooded engine and wet spark plugs, and the fact that I start the car from time to time BUT 1) it's always a cold start (more fuel to go) and 2) I never move the car at the moment, so it's always an "idling engine situation". :)

Then I put the battery under charge, just because I had some hours of freedom. In the meantime I painted the sway bar and did some other minor works.

In the end I put on the old relay (just out of curiosity) and... the pump primed! So I turned the key and TA-DAAAH! The car started right away! :partyhat:

Moral of the story is: the old relay works fine and I put it in the glove box like a spare one, but I would have bought Dave's one sooner or later so that's good. I'm happy because it was not a real problem, though I learned a lot from your answers. :thumbup:

Little oddity: the battery was not dead, it was just a little uncharged, but I swear I started the car before with less power in it. That made me rule out its guilt. Anyway it's pretty normal it slowly drains, as I told you I never moved the car by now! :)

Good guys!

:nana1:

[NightFlyer]

Easy solutions are the best solutions :biggrin:

Glad that worked out well for you :thumbup:

[Bitsyncmaster]

The OEM RPM relays can work intermittently due to broken solder joints on the relay circuit board. Look closely at the solder joints made with the metal frame of the relay to board.

It's the heating and cooling of that relay on the one sided circuit board that breaks the solder joints.

[JohnZ]

Ok, I think I'm safer with your new wonderful relay then!

:D

[Ron]

Ok, I think I'm safer with your new wonderful relay then!

:DYes! ...it takes roughly 100 Amps to make the starter turn the engine over at a decent speed but less than 1/5 of that to run the fuel pump. So if the starter even grunted, there should of been ample power to run the pump when you jumped the relay. Sounds like you "disturbed" the problem somehow rather than the battery needed a charge to me. But she's runnin' now!!! ;-)

[JohnZ]

Yes! ...it takes roughly 100 Amps to make the starter turn the engine over at a decent speed but less than 1/5 of that to run the fuel pump. So if the starter even grunted, there should of been ample power to run the pump when you jumped the relay. Sounds like you "disturbed" the problem somehow rather than the battery needed a charge to me. But she's runnin' now!!! ;-)

Well actually I guess the pump was always running, but I think that there was no spark at all!

Basically I had the charge to 1) have the starter turning 2) have the pump running but probably not enough to spark... does it make sense?

I must understand what happens in this car!!

:clown:

[Bitsyncmaster]

Yes! ...it takes roughly 100 Amps to make the starter turn the engine over at a decent speed but less than 1/5 of that to run the fuel pump. So if the starter even grunted, there should of been ample power to run the pump when you jumped the relay. Sounds like you "disturbed" the problem somehow rather than the battery needed a charge to me. But she's runnin' now!!! ;-)

Starter takes about 150 amps. I had done some graphs of starter current once but those got lost. That is why I think letting the system prime before starting is important. When your drawing 150 amps your battery voltage gets pretty low (maybe to low to run the pump).

[Ron]

Well actually I guess the pump was always running, but I think that there was no spark at all!

Basically I had the charge to 1) have the starter turning 2) have the pump running but probably not enough to spark... does it make sense?

Yes, that makes sense.
But some of the symptoms you reported sounded like the pump was a problem (not always while cranking)EG:

Well what I meant is that I jumped the rpm relay so to get the pump work (generating the bzzzz), but it did not helped.

I used one of these to actually let the pump go, but the buzz from the pump is irregular (a two tone bzzzzz)... sounds like the current is not enough to have a good solid running pump. I can't wait to see if the new rpm relay does its job correctly where the clip does not.
Yes the air plate simply bounces as you touch it, it's very light and no force is applied to keep it closed.

...And, I should have been clearer when saying, "should of been ample power to run the pump when you jumped the relay" -- I was thinking of your tests above when NOT cranking...

Anywho, the bottom line is still she's runnin' now!!! ;-)

[Ron]

Starter takes about 150 amps. I had done some graphs of starter current once but those got lost. That is why I think letting the system prime before starting is important. When your drawing 150 amps your battery voltage gets pretty low (maybe to low to run the pump).Mine don't -- (FWIW, the average gas 6cyl takes ~210Amp. We're lucky for a change).

+1 on priming (guess what unit is on my D ;-)

My intended point was that if the engine cranks over, there is no way it is the battery's fault that the pump does not have enough power when jumping the relay alone. (ie while doing the relay test.)

Sorry for the confusion...

[JohnZ]

Ok today we were ready to do our first little tour / try of the newly installed brakes + sway bar (poly bushings) + front recall kit but... the car died just like the other day. I was sooo disappointed! :( After a minute or less of idling, the car stops leaving us like :hmm:

some facts:

- fuel pump primes, Dave Mckeen RPM relay installed.
- battery fully charged and 12 volts tested here and there.
- resistances at the coil checked, both high tension and low tension are in the correct ohm range.
- no spark in the plugs. At least, no sparks in the plug we checked (mmmmm).
- we smell unburnt fuel while cranking.
- all connections to the ballast resistor and at the coil checked.
- CSV-WUR plug swap tried, unplugging of the CSV tried.

So the problem must be electrical related, this time the fuel sistem I THINK has no fault. :( but WHY does it die after a while? Sounds like it can't hold the right tension for too long.... And the last time it lasted soo long and it did not died, and I started it right away a second time with no problems! I though the problem was solved but I was wrong. :mad2:

Could it be the orange distributor that must be checked?? Spark plugs are new, spark plug wires are new, starter is new (it cranks anyway). What the heck must we do now???!? We damn want to try our brakes work!! :rant:

These are days in which you are happy (did a hell of a lot of works on brakes and suspensions:) ) but....... angry!

:(

[Bitsyncmaster]

I haven't looked back at the reply's but did you check the connector that connects the pickup coil in the distributor? That is a connector that was very corroded on my car and caused a lot of problems. That is the connector that mates to the wire going through the fire wall into the ignition ECU.

[JohnZ]

I haven't looked back at the reply's but did you check the connector that connects the pickup coil in the distributor? That is a connector that was very corroded on my car and caused a lot of problems. That is the connector that mates to the wire going through the fire wall into the ignition ECU.

You mean the white / slate wire, do you? Anyway we checked and re-checked those coil connectors, we even detached the coil from the car in order to have the resistances measured... so putting everything back gave us the chance to clean the connectors (yellow wire, yellow / white wire and white / slate wire).

At one point we thought that the "main high tension red cable" from the coil to the distributor may have been a bit loose, but reattaching it properly did not solve the problem. :(

but in my heart I feel it imust be something really "stupid"... no big deals there, but WHAT?!?!? :bawling:

[Bitsyncmaster]

I do not mean the ignition coil. The pickup coil has a shielded wire and two pin connector. I think the shielded wire it connects to is blue going to the ECU. I think the pickup coil has 700 ohms resistance.

[JohnZ]

I do not mean the ignition coil. The pickup coil has a shielded wire and two pin connector. I think the shielded wire it connects to is blue going to the ECU. I think the pickup coil has 700 ohms resistance.

Ok now I understood :) so basically I have to remove the distributor cap isn't it? Sounds a bit tricky... do I have to remove the fuel distributor in order to get that thing out of the car?

:)

[Bitsyncmaster]

Ok now I understood :) so basically I have to remove the distributor cap isn't it? Sounds a bit tricky... do I have to remove the fuel distributor in order to get that thing out of the car?

:)

No. Not needed to remove the cap. Just follow the wire exiting the distributor and you will see the connector at the end of that wire.

[JohnZ]

Ok I'll try that one then! Thanks Dave, finger crossed!

:)

[Jonathan]

Hey Gian, not saying your expertise and abilities are exemplary, but if you might post a bunch of photos of your engine bay and electrical connections, there might be something not hooked up right that you don't realize and someone on here might spot. Easy enough to try and find out... I know on my car it's hard to know what isn't right when you never have others to compare it to.

[NightFlyer]

As you said that you're not getting spark to the plugs, you may also want to check your coil-to-distributor wire - even though it's new, it could be intermittently defective.

[JohnZ]

I have to say IT WAS the coil to distributor wire! We spend the whole damn morning to try and check and test every single wire that could be part of the game, then my friend found out that that HT red cable connection was actually too loose. Everytime we checked it in these days we put it in the way we found it, BUT we found that it was originally plugged backward! So after tightening a bit the connections and plugging it correctly the spark was there! :aniclap:

The car started rightaway, and we were so happy but so angry about this little mistake that the PO (or the owner before him) did... the vibrations of the engine probably would detach this cable and bye bye idle!! :) :)

Now's all secured! :nana1:

[NightFlyer]

I have to say IT WAS the coil to distributor wire! We spend the whole damn morning to try and check and test every single wire that could be part of the game, then my friend found out that that HT red cable connection was actually too loose. Everytime we checked it in these days we put it in the way we found it, BUT we found that it was originally plugged backward! So after tightening a bit the connections and plugging it correctly the spark was there! :aniclap:

The car started rightaway, and we were so happy but so angry about this little mistake that the PO (or the owner before him) did... the vibrations of the engine probably would detach this cable and bye bye idle!! :) :)

Now's all secured! :nana1:

AWESOME! :thumbup:

Glad it was something cheap/easy to fix.

[JohnZ]

Yes but try to feel our rage, spending hours to track down the whole ignition system and electrical connections... and then find out that a cable had been plugged backward by some one else...

:angry0::smashfreak::shyshy:

[NightFlyer]

Yes but try to feel our rage, spending hours to track down the whole ignition system and electrical connections... and then find out that a cable had been plugged backward by some one else...

:angry0::smashfreak::shyshy:

Not to toot my own horn, but I seam to recall at least one member who recommended checking that right away when you reported that the problem persisted.... :wink:

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?9850-Car-won-t-start!-What-else-should-I-do-%29&p=147516&viewfull=1#post147516

[JohnZ]

Not to toot my own horn, but I seam to recall at least one member who recommended checking that right away when you reported that the problem persisted.... :wink:

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?9850-Car-won-t-start!-What-else-should-I-do-%29&p=147516&viewfull=1#post147516

You are right there! I owe you a giant beer! :cheers:

The cable itself was fine (we tried it in my mama's Lanca Y) but the connections were loose... try to imagine our happiness at the starting of the engine!!!

:D :D

[Bitsyncmaster]

Yes but try to feel our rage, spending hours to track down the whole ignition system and electrical connections... and then find out that a cable had been plugged backward by some one else...

:angry0::smashfreak::shyshy:

But now you know the in's & out's of the whole ignition system. So next time (hopefully not your car) you can track it down quickly.