Help- Car broke down today. - Auto Transmission problem?

[Ryan S.]

It started on Saturday morning on the way to Clint's house. At around 40mph, I noticed/felt car engine revving up when I put a gas but car didn't accelerate. Almost felt like it was in neutral. Then I felt it engaged and RPM went down. It did this a few more times at various speed. I thought that I was low on transmission fluid so I added more when I got home.

This morning, on the way to work, on a freeway, I noticed that car doing the exactly the same at 45 to 60mph. Car revved up and then engaged. Engine went up to 4000 RPM and with high revving noise (like it was in neutral). Doing it several times. I pulled over and checked transmission fluid and it was full. I noticed some burnt smell, similar to burnt clutch when I opened engine compartment. Stopped a couple of more times when it was doing more frequently. My final stop, duration was much longer and felt total loss of power. It coasted off the freeway exit ramp to the side of the road. Car had zero power this time. Burnt smell was much more this time.

Towed car back home and now it is sitting in the garage.

I appreciate any advices and recommendations.

Thank you
~ryan

[Jonathan]

One thing to check Ryan, would be the various sections of the shift computer wiring to see if any of it got melted by laying on a portion of the exhaust piping. It's tricky to see and you'll likely need to see it from underneath if you have the means to raise the car on ramps or jack stands and get a view from below. A failed shift computer could be part of your problem or it could be something else. Checking to see if any of the wiring looks damaged is fairly easy to do without needing to rip anything apart quite yet.

[DMCMW Dave]

Start saving for a transmission.


Sent from phone

[Ryan S.]

Start saving for a transmission.


Sent from phone
Ugggg.... Why would you say that? You don't think it's a simple case of governor computer?
Do you think changing transmission is the only option? Now I am really depressed :sad30:
thanks

[Flash66]

Those are the classic symptoms of an automatic trans going bad. Clutches, friction plates etc. I would say it could also just be the torque converter, Question for the forum, is there a rebuild kit available for this transmission? If so, a good transmission shop can rebuild it for you if you can acquire a kit. Rule of thumb is when replacing an automatic or rebuilding, the converter should be rebuilt or replaced as well. A bad torque converter will cause a transmission to overheat and burn fluid also. Its a crap shoot and a tough spot you're in. Another test, do you have full power in reverse? If so, it's the trans. It's always best to replace both. Main reason I bought a 5spd delorean. Autos are just trouble on an old car.

[DMCMW Dave]

Ugggg.... Why would you say that? You don't think it's a simple case of governor computer?
Do you think changing transmission is the only option? Now I am really depressed :sad30:
thanks

Computer governor controls shift points and nothing else. It can only tell the trans to be in 1, 2, or 3. If you pull the fuse it's 3 all the time. Slipping is either a hydraulic problem or bad clutches. Usually caused by driving it on a bad governor (starting in second or third all the time) for an extended period of time.

If the fluid is dark/smells bad, it's from burnt clutches. You can sometimes get a bit of extra life out of it by adding some "transmission mechanic in a can" type stuff from the auto parts store.

Remote possibility of a plugged filter/low oil pressure, but very remote, almost theoretical.

[David T]

Computer governor controls shift points and nothing else. It can only tell the trans to be in 1, 2, or 3. If you pull the fuse it's 3 all the time. Slipping is either a hydraulic problem or bad clutches. Usually caused by driving it on a bad governor (starting in second or third all the time) for an extended period of time.

If the fluid is dark/smells bad, it's from burnt clutches. You can sometimes get a bit of extra life out of it by adding some "transmission mechanic in a can" type stuff from the auto parts store.

Remote possibility of a plugged filter/low oil pressure, but very remote, almost theoretical.

Get a pressure gauge and check the line pressure as per G:05:03. Pull the pan and clean the filter and change the fluid. If that doesn't help you need to line up another transmission or have yours rebuilt. Examine the wiring harness to the shift computer to make sure the wiring is not burnt.

[Ryan S.]

Thanks for everyone's feedbacks and suggestions.
I am pretty bummed about this. I just overhauled cooling system and looks like it was working. Transmission was totally unexpected since I never felt that ATF governor wasn't working. I will try what Dave T suggested but not getting my hopes up.


In the worst case scenario, I am not sure if I need to ship my car down to DMCCA for total transmission work or try to find a local transmission shop to fix. Has anyone tried Hervey's rebuilt transmission? 1/2 price of new one.
This is totally depressing.:mecry:

[jawn101]

Really sorry about all this Ryan. It's a real bummer to see one of our own in such state.

[D Knight]

Dave S- do you have a rebuild kit available for the auto? Might be something to look into if possible.


-D Knight-

[dmc4087]

Not much help, but on the positive side, at least when its done you know it will be 100% and should last many more years.

[David T]

Dave S- do you have a rebuild kit available for the auto? Might be something to look into if possible.


-D Knight-

You also need the kit of special tools. If you have never done a transmission before I would not recommend learning on a Renault transaxle. Also if you damaged any of the "hard parts" some of them are difficult to obtain. A kit just includes the seals, gaskets, steels and friction plates. Shims, bushings, reaction rings, gear sets, and drums, are not included.

[Jonathan]

Just out of curiosity, can you actually buy a brand new (old stock) complete auto trans?

It is shown here:

http://store.delorean.com/c-386-4-5-0-assemblygasket-sets.aspx

With a "yes" for in stock, and a price of $5,742. Don't get me wrong, that's a rather large amount of money for many of us, but I wasn't sure if these were actually still available or whether the complete ones aren't complete anymore (as I think is the case for engines).

I am guessing you would still need to reuse other things on your car to do a complete swap (or buy replacements), like a shift computer and various attachment items?

EDIT: I clicked on the thumbnail and it shows what looks like the shift computer wiring so maybe it is 100% of what you need for that price.

[DMCMW Dave]

Automatic trans is available as a complete unit with governor. You'll see on the same page the hydraulic unit only, which includes the converter but not the differential. Takes some skill as you will be splitting the trans into a couple of pieces to replace this.

[David T]

Just out of curiosity, can you actually buy a brand new (old stock) complete auto trans?

It is shown here:

http://store.delorean.com/c-386-4-5-0-assemblygasket-sets.aspx

With a "yes" for in stock, and a price of $5,742. Don't get me wrong, that's a rather large amount of money for many of us, but I wasn't sure if these were actually still available or whether the complete ones aren't complete anymore (as I think is the case for engines).

I am guessing you would still need to reuse other things on your car to do a complete swap (or buy replacements), like a shift computer and various attachment items?

EDIT: I clicked on the thumbnail and it shows what looks like the shift computer wiring so maybe it is 100% of what you need for that price.

Before spending that much you should at least call and see what is and is not included. For instance, the dipstick and tube, torque converter, shift computer, vacuum modulator and lines, clips, bolts, etc. Most of the parts, if not included, can be reused from your old one. You should also ask if there is any core charge so you can get something back for your old, used stuff which you won't need. Don't forget to consider shipping. This is a large and heavy piece and shipping is not inconsequential. Be very careful when installing. There are 2 hollow dowel pins that locate the transaxle to the motor. It is VERY important that they be there and you can't have them in the transmission AND the motor. Sometimes they come out with the transmission and sometimes they don't.

[rdarlington]

Might be silly, but have you checked the ATF fluid level?

[Flicky]

Sounds like you'll be needing a rebuild kit at least. DPI has one, and lots of other cool things for it.

Has anyone ever put a different converter in, like something with a lock-up? Anyone know the stock stall and spline counts/configuration? Good idea to flush your converter out on the rebuild, if you don't just get a new one. Did your fluid turn dark now?

On a side note, for the filter I am considering using a B&M remote mount that would use a standard spin-on since the pan filters are so hard to find:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/bmm-80277

And probably a TCI cooler. I'd really like to get the trans able to take 250HP...and if it had another 3 gears, then it would be perfect.

[Rich]

Really sorry about all this Ryan. It's a real bummer to see one of our own in such state.

+1

Dang. Very bad luck there, Ryan.

You may wish to consider shipping the car to the D shop of your choosing. Depending on where that is you might also consider taking a few days of vacation to drive it home afterward.

Compare to the cost of 2-way shipping of the tranny and the hassle of getting it out and in plus crating or palletizing.

I don't mean to say a local shop couldn't do it for you, only adding an option to the list here.

Good luck and keep us posted.

-Rich

[vwdmc16]

Went over to see Ryans car first hand, First off checked the oil, it was on the very bottom of the dipstick, put a quart in and it was at the top of the dipstick. Went for a test drive. Car went into D silently an car rolled forward but without much power, definately slipping. Down the driveway into the level street got about 20 feet and had zero power transmission to the wheels in R,D,2 and 1, they all felt like neutral. Attempted to push the car backwards back up the drive way but his driveway is pretty steep, maybe 15-20' angle.

After two failed attempts to get up the driveway we tried driving again. started the car went into Reverse solidly and it pulled itself up into the garge like nothing was wrong. back on level ground in the garage I selected D and it felt strong too. Holding down the brake and gas in D the car wanted to go, you could hear the engine strain, again it felt normal.



So a Theory: Perhaps the oil pick up in the pan has come loose and the trans can only get enough fluid to build proper line pressure when the car is at large angle on the driveway and the oil is covering the valve body more.

Another test would be to put the car on the steep driveway with the nose facing up and see if that works. Either way the pan is coming off this weekend for inspection.

[NightFlyer]

Went over to see Ryans car first hand, First off checked the oil, it was on the very bottom of the dipstick, put a quart in and it was at the top of the dipstick. Went for a test drive. Car went into D silently an car rolled forward but without much power, definately slipping. Down the driveway into the level street got about 20 feet and had zero power transmission to the wheels in R,D,2 and 1, they all felt like neutral. Attempted to push the car backwards back up the drive way but his driveway is pretty steep, maybe 15-20' angle.

After two failed attempts to get up the driveway we tried driving again. started the car went into Reverse solidly and it pulled itself up into the garge like nothing was wrong. back on level ground in the garage I selected D and it felt strong too. Holding down the brake and gas in D the car wanted to go, you could hear the engine strain, again it felt normal.



So a Theory: Perhaps the oil pick up in the pan has come loose and the trans can only get enough fluid to build proper line pressure when the car is at large angle on the driveway and the oil is covering the valve body more.

Another test would be to put the car on the steep driveway with the nose facing up and see if that works. Either way the pan is coming off this weekend for inspection.

Keeping my fingers crossed for Ryan - great that you're helping him out like this :thumbup:

[DMCMW Dave]

So a Theory: Perhaps the oil pick up in the pan has come loose and the trans can only get enough fluid to build proper line pressure when the car is at large angle on the driveway and the oil is covering the valve body more.

.

Nope. There are folks out there who remove the filter (aka pickup) completely and run without it.

I still have no idea what the problem is if not just a pump failure, but it's not the pickup.

[Flash66]

Dave is right on. It's doubtful that it has anything to do with the pickup. Your transmission in a nutshell, uses a torque converter that uses fluid as a coupler between the engine to keep it from stalling when the car is stopped. Then when acceleration occurs it re-engages the transmission and away you go. Bands and clutches control the planetary gear sets forward selection ratio. Now you have the hydraulics. The valve body, which is like the control center of it all that receives fluid pressure from the front pump. Having power on an angle only, really isn't logical but it "seems" to be a hydraulic issue, but I will stress that it only SEEMS like it. If you'd like to try another step, and since it's obviously not the job for you to tear it down, jack up the rear of the vehicle, check and or replace the screen, and flush the transmission with clean fluid. With the car securely on stands in the rear and with the front wheels chocked, let it idle in drive for 5 minutes. Take all precautions doing this please! After it cools down, drain and refill again with clean fluid. Replace an equal amount of fluid recommended with Lucas transmission additive on the refill cycle. Getting fresh fluid cycled through the torque converter and valve body is what we're trying to do. Say a prayer and go for a drive if the wheels still have power at this point. It's worth a shot. Good luck!

[Flash66]

Thinking about this post a little further and the odd situation of the transmission engaging on an angle, it could be possible there is a piece of foreign material floating in the valve body itself. I have rebuilt a few autos in my day, but never a DeLorean. If its possible to drop the valve body from the pan you can take it apart and go through it. Be careful of the gaskets between and small parts. A new pump would also be great. Still the best and cheapest method out of this is to drop the trans if these methods fail and have a trans mech take a look at it just to assess the internals and go from there. There is always a better alternative than shipping a car 2 ways and spending 10k in the end just for a simple auto transmission swap. Autos are just intimidating to most people which I'm guessing is the root of your panic. Judging by your description of how it failed, a kit from DPI and a new pump 'should' take care of this. 2k at most if you bring it to a shop with an honest tech. I think its pretty safe to say the control unit is fine. I'm going to take a look at my manual to see how in depth it goes into the trans and educate myself a little further. Since I own a 5spd I never bothered to study this.

[Ryan S.]

Thanks everyone for your feedbacks.
I have been busy with my new job and travelings. I finally had time yesterday to work on my car. I drained fluid and dropped the pan. Fluid was changed a few months ago but it looked dark now. Almost chocolate brown. Fluid had strong smell of burnt plastic. I didn't see any significant amount of metal pieces or shavings. I filtered fluid through paper towel to see if I can catch any broken metal parts but just a some small debris. Again nothing major I don't think. Magnet inside of pan had metals shaving clumped together but I would think that might be a normal amount?

Checked wiring and fuses. All in good shape.

I will see if I can take a filter out and flush it with fluid today. I will try what Flash suggested and pray that it would work. I will also check pressure.

To add a few more information to this puzzle, I have been struggling with overheating issues and I replaced radiator and coolant hoses, including the one next to transmission just a couple of weeks before this issue. I believe that one cools ATF. I had a hack of time installing that one. I hope I didn't cause any damage while I was working on that.

Also, a week before this problem, I replaced battery with a costco battery, which failed eventually a couple of weeks ago and had to return it. It wouldn't stay charged with my trickle charger. So I replaced it back with my old one and it's working fine now. I replaced old one because it seemed to drain out sooner than I wanted. Otherwise it was working fine as long as I drove frequently or hook up to a trickle charger.

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[David T]

Thanks everyone for your feedbacks.
I have been busy with my new job and travelings. I finally had time yesterday to work on my car. I drained fluid and dropped the pan. Fluid was changed a few months ago but it looked dark now. Almost chocolate brown. Fluid had strong smell of burnt plastic. I didn't see any significant amount of metal pieces or shavings. I filtered fluid through paper towel to see if I can catch any broken metal parts but just a some small debris. Again nothing major I don't think. Magnet inside of pan had metals shaving clumped together but I would think that might be a normal amount?

Checked wiring and fuses. All in good shape.

I will see if I can take a filter out and flush it with fluid today. I will try what Flash suggested and pray that it would work. I will also check pressure.

To add a few more information to this puzzle, I have been struggling with overheating issues and I replaced radiator and coolant hoses, including the one next to transmission just a couple of weeks before this issue. I believe that one cools ATF. I had a hack of time installing that one. I hope I didn't cause any damage while I was working on that.

Also, a week before this problem, I replaced battery with a costco battery, which failed eventually a couple of weeks ago and had to return it. It wouldn't stay charged with my trickle charger. So I replaced it back with my old one and it's working fine now. I replaced old one because it seemed to drain out sooner than I wanted. Otherwise it was working fine as long as I drove frequently or hook up to a trickle charger.

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At this point I would take the filter apart and clean it, reassemble and refill and the very first thing is to see what the line pressure is. G:05:03. Also make sure all of the external on-car adjustments are correct, ie, when you are in D you really are detented into D. Easy to check with the pan off.
David Teitelbaum

[Ryan S.]

I finally got a filter gasket, thanks to Julee. I cleaned the filter best as I could without taking it apart. A lot of black flakes came out. Put the filter and pan back on. But I couldn't measure pressure since I didn't have a gauge and wasn't sure about running the car on jacks. Put in some fresh fluid and drove the car around the block slowly several times. Car ran fine without any issues. Drained and refilled again. Drained fluid was darker than what I added 10 minutes ago. This time, I added a bottle of Lucas additive fluid. That stuff was pretty thick. Finished my beer and prayed.

Drove it slowly around the block several times again. So far so good. Took it out on a major street and hit 50mph and it ran fine. Drove about total 10 miles stop and go and car performed well. When I got home, I kind of smelled a hint of burnt plastic, similar to when the car broke down. But couldn't smell it again.

I will pry some more and maybe I will drive it on freeway later.

Question is should I drain and refill again? What should I do next? I am just glad that it is running again but still nervous.

[Ryan S.]

Ok. Just came back from 15 miles of freeway driving. Car shifted fine and no issues. When I pulled into a garage, I didn't even smell anything. I will drive some more tonight and tomorrow. Fingers crossed.

[DavidProehl]

I don't know a lot about transmissions so I won't comment if what you did permanently fixed it, but am very happy to hear it is running better! What an ordeal this has been for you.

[Ryan S.]

Thanks Dave. I know one thing after another. But today it felt really good in a moving D. I hope this works.

[Ryan S.]

I drove it around this morning and no issues except a increased idle RPM when I put gear into P or N. I had to pump gas paddle to drop Rpm to a normal level. I had this issue right after I replaced thermostat. I tried to adjust but ended up putting back my spring spool to keep the idle RPM down. I thought I fixed it but I guess not.

I was just reading through GC (governor control) related postings and there were discussions on adjusting throttle cable to modify shifting points and also how that can affect performance or function of automatic. Come to think of it, my transmission problem occurred shortly after I adjusted throttle parts. I may need to check this out today.

I never really paid much attention to shifting points but mine seems to shift at pretty low rpm. It shifts at around 2200 Rpm. But then again, I am currently driving like a grandma. I am not sure what the normal shifting point is.

[Jonathan]

You've touched on a couple things that aren't flaws or reasons to rebuild a transmission of shift computer.

Shifting at low RPMs while driving like a Grandma (I know what you mean by this, I drive the same way most of the time), you will likely be in 3rd gear before you get to 35 mph. If you hammer the gas off a light or are on it pretty aggressively, it will stay in gear longer. Driving easy makes them shift sooner. Being in 3rd by 2,200 RPM is not unusual by itself. If I'm out cruising, I'll be humming along at 55 mph and the RPMs will be 2,600 or so. And it will have gotten to 3rd long before that speed.

You didn't mention the kickdown microswitch at all. It likely isn't factoring into any of this, but if you hammer the gas and engage that extra microswitch, it will keep the car in the lower gear longer to give you some extra power. That's more or less the opposite of what you're mentioning though. You can test it pretty easily on an open stretch of road and put the pedal to the floor when you know you've already gotten to 3rd and you should feel the car shift back down to 2nd while you're gunning it.

Depending on what throttle adjustments you made prior, your sticking high idle/high RPM could be a few different things. Snapping the gas to get it to come back down might be telling you it is sticking mechanically. The throttle cable or spool that is. Your cable could be getting pinched in its sheath as it travels under the passenger side of the air filter housing. You can see easily if you remove the housing and notice if one of the clips is pinching or the sheath got worn/fretted away and the cable under it is rusted.

The other sticking high idle culprits can be a throttle spool spring that's not lubed well likewise with the spring on the butterfly valves lever arm. You might be a tiny bit out of adjustment with your idle microswitch settings (on the threaded posts which engage that switch), but that's not that prone to be solved with snapping the gas because your problem sounds like it is hanging up and needs an extra push to get it to go back to rest. Inside that throttle body are what they call decal springs and some have seen those get old and weak and not return the assembly to it's idle position.

Search on here for high idle threads to read more. We tried to start a useful technical photos thread and one of the ones in there is where the far end of the throttle cable is at full throttle or idle underneath on the shift computer. You could be out of adjustment there too for some of the problems you're seeing. It seems like your problems are no longer ATF level related or whatever after the drain and refills you've done.

[jawn101]

Ryan, I'm thrilled to hear that the car is moving again... I really hope you've got this nailed down!

[Ryan S.]

Jonathan, Thanks for your explanations. That helps me understand my issues better.

Jon, My wife is also thrilled that we don't have to spend $$$$ and finally freeing up a garage space for her car. I hope this is it. Drove it this morning to work and no issues.

[Rich]

Yes, great to hear you've got the transmission back in good shape again, Ryan.

About the intermittent high idle and following along the path already mentioned a few posts back a high-idle is pretty easy to diagnose on a D, at least at a high level.

If you can get it to replicate then look for the throttle linkage ball joint beneath the throttle spool. It's set up like the gas struts on the door. Flip and remove the retainer pin, then pop the throttle link off of the bottom of the spool. Run the engine up by hand using only that link then slowly let it go to its rest position. If you can get a high idle even once in a few tries then the problem is between the link and the butterflies. If not then it is someplace between the accelerator pedal and the bottom of the spool/quadrant.

Work in whichever direction the test points to.

Be sure to look after it, esp. if it is severe or frequent. With an automatic it'll be kind of beating on the drivetrain til it's fixed. Less of an issue that way with a 5-speed.

Guaranteed easier to fix than your tranny was! Best luck.

[David T]

Typical symptom of:

sticking throttle cable
sticking throttle spool
worn quadrant link ends

Make sure when you release the gas pedal the throttle arm is setting the idle micro. Lubricate the throttle cable as per the recall. Disassemble, clean, grease and reassemble the throttle spool. Lengthen the quadrant link (it has left hand and right hand threaded ends)(they also have tiny lock springs like the struts). You may also have to adjust the 2 screws on the throttle arm. One is a stop and the other hits the idle micro. I would also do ALL of the external, On-Car adjustments for the transmission including the throttle cable and checking the final drive level.

[Ryan S.]

Rich and David
Thanks for your suggestions. I think I fixed it yesterday but I will go through everything this weekend to make sure.
Thanks

[Jonathan]

You're welcome, Ryan.

And good for you for putting the effort into figuring it out... without just throwing money at it. Sounds like a pretty good excuse for you and your wife to go do something fun on the weekend to celebrate.