damn distributor!

[acaciolo]

So...my car has been kind of sluggish and after finding that the PO had messed with the 3 brass plugs, I tightened them down and adjusted the dwell properly. All good.

but, when I put a timing light on it, the timing is way the hell off. Honestly, I don't know how it is running. it is about 1/4" off the scale to the right! Nowhere near 13.

I verified that I am on plug wire 1, but I did not verify TDC. I was going to adjust the distributor first to 13 degrees to see what kind of a change that makes (with the vacuum line off.)

But...I can't figure out how to get to that freakin' adjustment bolt loosened. I am also questioning whether I am getting a true reading. Any tips?

thanks!

tony c.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Pull the vacuum line off and check again. It may just be the idle switch is not working and your engine is warm.

[DMCMW Dave]

So...my car has been kind of sluggish and after finding that the PO had messed with the 3 brass plugs, I tightened them down and adjusted the dwell properly. All good.

but, when I put a timing light on it, the timing is way the hell off. Honestly, I don't know how it is running. it is about 1/4" off the scale to the right! Nowhere near 13.

I verified that I am on plug wire 1, but I did not verify TDC. I was going to adjust the distributor first to 13 degrees to see what kind of a change that makes (with the vacuum line off.)

But...I can't figure out how to get to that freakin' adjustment bolt loosened. I am also questioning whether I am getting a true reading. Any tips?

thanks!

tony c.

Way to the right is retarded timing. It will run like that but not much power.

Leave the vacuum hose off the distributor to make sure you don't have vacuum advance due to some fault in that system.

You loosen the bolt from the side with an open end wrench. It is sometimes hard to reach, you may need to move the idle motor tubing.

[NightFlyer]

Distributor access is the bain of stock DeLorean owner' s existence.

Wish I had some tips for you, but unfortunately don't, other than using a flexible extension to get on the adjustment bolt, or moving some things and using an open ended box wrench, as Dave S suggests.

Also, the timing scales do move over use/time, thus unless you've verified its accuracy or reset it recently, think of it as more liking giving a ballpark accuracy as opposed to dead-on accuracy.

I really should check the timing on my car one of these days, as I have a suspicion that it's slightly off as well.

Best of luck Tony :thumbup:

[acaciolo]

confirmed timing is way off. vacuum line removed from distributor. checked timing on wire 1 and wire 6 just to be sure. same reading 1/4" off the scale. which is probably why i have limited power.

i tried for about an hour to loosen that damn 11mm nut. i tried going in from the firewall and from the front. can't budge it yet. gonna spray a little penetrating oil on. I also ordered a longer and shorter 11mm open end wrench. can't wait to see how this drives with the timing correct...if I ever get that nut loose!

tony

[David T]

Recheck you are actually on cylinder #1. If you are that far off you will not get it set by turning the distributor, you will probably have to remove it and reinsert it a tooth or 2 over and that is not likely. Manually rotate the crank to get cylinder #1 to TDC on the compression stroke and check rotor position and timing marks. Another possibility is the mechanical or vacuum advance has a problem and is stuck. A quick check with a timing light and you can tell if they are working. If they are not that could explain why you can't get your base timing to 13 degrees. Base timing is always checked at a low speed so you do not have any mechanical advance and the vacuum hose removed so you have no vacuum advance.

[Bitsyncmaster]

I've not tried to get that nut loose but in many hard to reach places I've used a crows foot type "socket" with beaker bar, extensions, flex drives with success.

[David T]

I've not tried to get that nut loose but in many hard to reach places I've used a crows foot type "socket" with beaker bar, extensions, flex drives with success.

If you think it is difficult to loosen the bolt to adjust the distributor just try removing it! To replace the impulse coil it has to come off the motor and completely apart!

[acaciolo]

def on cylinder 1. I also checked it on cylinder 6 (which I think uses the other mark on the pulley) and both are at the same spot....1/4" off to the right. the distributor appears to be turned fully counter clockwise in the adjustment slot, so hopefully there is enough adjustment by turning it clockwise to get it where I need it.

I have a longer 11mm wrench on the way. my 7" doesn't quiet make it (insert jokes here.)

I just can't get a good angle for that nut. next step is to take some of the obstacles around it off. I'll try the longer wrench first.

t

[NightFlyer]

my 7" doesn't quiet make it (insert jokes here.)

With this crowd, that probably creates some envy - ho, did I just type that outloud??? :tongue2:

J/K guys!


I just can't get a good angle for that nut. next step is to take some of the obstacles around it off. I'll try the longer wrench first.

t

I like the longer wrench approach. I messed with trying to perfect my timing 12 years ago and can't remember exactly what I ended up using, but for some reason, a flexible extension is what sticks out in my mind, though I might be thinking of something completely different.

Let us know how it goes. I plan on re-timing my car sometime before Woodward.

[acaciolo]

david T,

I think you are correct about opening up the distributor. I got the nut loose and I was able to move the distributor a hair so now the timing is showing at 0 degrees...but as you suggested, I can't turn it any more. the adjustment is bottomed out. You mentioned about removing the distributor. I am assuming you are talking about the entire distributor and not just the cap and rotor?

I just had some work done right after I got the car...which included new plugs, wires, cap and rotor. Is there anything that could have been done wrong there that could cause this? I am fairly certain that the rotor has a notch on it and can't be installed wrong. Same with the cap.

thanks

tony

[DMCMW Dave]

david T,

I think you are correct about opening up the distributor. I got the nut loose and I was able to move the distributor a hair so now the timing is showing at 0 degrees...but as you suggested, I can't turn it any more. the adjustment is bottomed out. You mentioned about removing the distributor. I am assuming you are talking about the entire distributor and not just the cap and rotor?

I just had some work done right after I got the car...which included new plugs, wires, cap and rotor. Is there anything that could have been done wrong there that could cause this? I am fairly certain that the rotor has a notch on it and can't be installed wrong. Same with the cap.

thanks

tony

The rotor has a notch. It's more likely that the distributor is installed in the head one tooth off from where it should be with respect to the cam. If that's the case you can't time it by turning it, you can get close but then the odd-fire post orientation starts causing an issue. If you are truly out of range you will need to pull it and move it a tooth.

[acaciolo]

I already know this...but just wanted to make 100% sure. assuming I rotate it a notch towards the direction I need to adjust it...

also, my mechanic did change the cap and rotor. anything that they could have done there to cause this symptom?

[DMCMW Dave]

I already know this...but just wanted to make 100% sure. assuming I rotate it a notch towards the direction I need to adjust it...

also, my mechanic did change the cap and rotor. anything that they could have done there to cause this symptom?

Only if he took the distributor out of the engine. More likely the DPO.

The only other thing that can throw it off like this is a mis-timed cam chain but that generally causes lots of other issues.

[acaciolo]

dpo = damn previous owner or dumb previous owner? or both?

[TTait]

Since you mentioned that a po had messed with brass plugs etc - are you relatively sure the po did not install performance cams? Steger cams for example were specced out to run at 20 degrees, not 13.

Tom

[acaciolo]

I am not sure, but I doubt it. the car was 99% original. also, timing was set closer to 0 when I got it.

[DMCMW Dave]

dpo = damn previous owner or dumb previous owner? or both?

typically "dreaded prior owner" but they all work.

[David T]

typically "dreaded prior owner" but they all work.

One possibility is the ignition wires are not in the correct positions, ie, they are all over 1 position. The right cap has numbers molded into it. The wire for that cylinder is supposed to be in that spot. Recheck the ignition wiring. If it is correct you have to pull the distributor and reinsert it 1 tooth over. Did you actually check the mechanical and vacuum timing? If either is stuck it will mess up the base timing. The rotor and cap can only go on in one position correctly but I have seen where it was put on wrong. The notches do line things up. I would also verify TDC mechanically to cylinder #1.

[acaciolo]

did not check vacuum. I know just enough to be dangerous...

Ill verify wires. each wire has a small number label on, and a really good (not me) mechanic installed them. but that still could be the issue...who knows. will check that tomorrow.

thanks for all the tips.

tony

[NightFlyer]

did not check vacuum. I know just enough to be dangerous...

Ill verify wires. each wire has a small number label on, and a really good (not me) mechanic installed them. but that still could be the issue...who knows. will check that tomorrow.

thanks for all the tips.

tony

Even if you had vacuum advance under idle (because of a failed switch or solenoid), it shouldn't be enough to pull the timing as far out of alignment as yours appears to be.

But it's not difficult to check, and not a bad idea to check the operation of the vacuum advance system.

Vacuum advance at the distributor should only be present when the running temperature of the engine is above 104F AND when the engine is under throttle. At all other times, there should be no vacuum advance at the distributor - NEVER when the engine running temp is below 104F (whether at idle or under throttle) and NEVER when the engine is at idle.

It works like this:

When you first start the engine cold, vacuum from the multi-port switch in the y-pipe (under the intake) is directed to the warm-up regulator / control pressure regulator (WUR/CPR). Once the running temperature reaches 104F, the multi-port switch redirects the vacuum to the solenoid hanging off the mixture unit behind the fuel distributor. When the engine is idling, the idle micro-switch is activated (closed) and instructs the solenoid to hold the vacuum there within the solenoid. When the the engine is under throttle, the idle micro-switch is disengaged (open) and causes the solenoid to actuate and release the vacuum being held there onward to the distributor in order to cause the vacuum advance of the timing.

To check it, you simply pull the vacuum line off the distributor's vacuum chamber and check for the presence/absence of vacuum during the various stages of engine operation.

Best luck :thumbup:

[acaciolo]

nightflyer, you never cease to amaze me!

I checked timing at idle with and without the vacuum line connected to the distributor. no change. still at 0 degrees now since I adjusted as far to one end as possible. I also verified by reading by checking on plug 6 also. both are showing 0 degrees.

so...wires could be off by one. cap could somehow be on wrong (doubtful) or I need to move the distributor 1 notch so I can get some more adjustment.

[NightFlyer]

nightflyer, you never cease to amaze me!

I checked timing at idle with and without the vacuum line connected to the distributor. no change. still at 0 degrees now since I adjusted as far to one end as possible. I also verified by reading by checking on plug 6 also. both are showing 0 degrees.

so...wires could be off by one. cap could somehow be on wrong (doubtful) or I need to move the distributor 1 notch so I can get some more adjustment.

Let's hope it's something easy, but if not, if the worst thing you end up having to do during DeLorean ownership is re-set the distributor, you'll still be far ahead of most other owners :smile:

[DMCMW Dave]

Even if you had vacuum advance under idle (because of a failed switch or solenoid), it shouldn't be enough to pull the timing as far out of alignment as yours appears to be.

Best luck :thumbup:

Especially since his is reading retarded. Vacuum advance at the wrong time would cause, well, advance.

[NightFlyer]

Especially since his is reading retarded. Vacuum advance at the wrong time would cause, well, advance.

I would have pointed that out, but I was trying not to embarrass the member who suggested that it might be a problem with the vacuum (and/or mechanical) advance...

But now I don't have to say it - thanks Dave :biggrin:

[acaciolo]

dave, don't you ever sleep? I know nightflyer doesn't....but not sure how you seem to be awake 24 hours a day.

thanks for the continual help. the louver bracket and switch arrived today. thanks.

t

[NightFlyer]

dave, don't you ever sleep? I know nightflyer doesn't....but not sure how you seem to be awake 24 hours a day.

thanks for the continual help. the louver bracket and switch arrived today. thanks.

t

I'm an admitted insomniac - hopefully I'm not rubbing off on Dave (otherwise he's going to be sure to continue to confuse me for Bill on the phone) :biggrin:

[David T]

I'm an admitted insomniac - hopefully I'm not rubbing off on Dave (otherwise he's going to be sure to continue to confuse me for Bill on the phone) :biggrin:


I mentioned the advances because if they are stuck and don't work (and are "advanced") the distributor may have been installed "retarded". The advances are easy to check. With the vacuum advance plugged off rev the motor and see if the timing moves. Now reconnect the vacuum and see if it moves even more. You can get fancy and check exactly how much the timing advances and at what speed to check against the specs. None of this is sounding right but when he finds the problem it will all make sense. Even if things are neatly labeled I would not trust anything until I verified it. Things can get labeled wrong and still look very neat and tidy! I also still say you need to check the timing marks against Cylinder #1 TDC. I also wonder if he is really on the ignition wire cylinder #1. I worked on IH trucks a long time ago. I was trying to time the motor and just could NOT get it right. I finally got the manual and discovered it gets timed to cylinder #6 not #1. If things do not seem right back up a couple of steps and recheck yourself. On VW bugs cylinder #3 is retarded in comparison to the other cylinders. It's built into the distributor cap. VERY important you get the right wire in the right spot on the cap. Cylinder #3 runs hotter than the other cylinders because the air cooling isn't so good for that one. By retarding just that one cylinder kept it from overheating. Experience tells me something is underlying the problem here and he hasn't found it yet.

[acaciolo]

thanks dave.

I didn't trace all wires yet, but I did check timing on #1 and #6. both gave me the same reading...about 1/4" off the scale. I was able to loosen the adjustment nut and move the distributor a tine bit and got the timing to 0 degree with the vacuum disconnected at the distributor. but I am out of adjustment room. before I move it a notch, I'll verify advanced as you suggested and also trace the wires. is there a chart anywhere showing the cylinder numbers on the cap? I know the cap is marked, but that is kinda hard to see!

thanks

tony

[Ron]

is there a chart anywhere showing the cylinder numbers on the cap? I know the cap is marked, but that is kinda hard to see!
Since it is an odd fire and #6 follows #1 in the firing order (and it is running ok/fair), if you get the exact same reading when checking #1 and #6 , then the wires are in the correct cap hole(s)....If different, try moving them one hole counterclockwise.

[acaciolo]

wires all good. confirmed advance is working well. timing changes from 0 degrees at idle to around 15 when I increase throttle.

note...the minor change I made from 1/4" off the scale to 0 degrees at idle has the car much more powerful. but, starting is a little harder now.

looks like next step is to move the distributor a notch and see what happens.

t

[NightFlyer]

wires all good. confirmed advance is working well. timing changes from 0 degrees at idle to around 15 when I increase throttle.

note...the minor change I made from 1/4" off the scale to 0 degrees at idle has the car much more powerful. but, starting is a little harder now.

looks like next step is to move the distributor a notch and see what happens.

t

I may be doing the same thing in the near future....

[David T]

wires all good. confirmed advance is working well. timing changes from 0 degrees at idle to around 15 when I increase throttle.

note...the minor change I made from 1/4" off the scale to 0 degrees at idle has the car much more powerful. but, starting is a little harder now.

looks like next step is to move the distributor a notch and see what happens.

t

You should have seen a total of 20 degrees of mechanical advance. Of course to get it all you have to get up to 4,000 rpm. Hook up the vacuum and you should see another 20 for a total of 40 degrees. Starting should not be getting harder. That indicates you are getting too advanced at idle. I still am wondering if you are really reading the timing properly. Are you using an inductive pick-up? Hook it up in another spot on the ignition wire to cylinder #1. Cylinder #1 is the most forward cylinder on the right (passenger side) bank. Refer to M:01:02 for the timing procedure and how to properly install the distributor.

[acaciolo]

I only slightly revved it to confirm advance. I didn't open it up all the way. The distributor was almost all the way adjusted to one end and the brass plugs were opened when I got the car, so who knows what the po did.

I am using an inductive timing light and I tested in 6 and 1. Both the same. The notch was slightly off the gauge. After the slight adjustment I was able to make, I got it to 0.

Tony