Dave, do you actually have any real world experience with block rot? If you did, you would know that just about NOBODY has succeeded with either welding on a plate, or epoxying. Stop giving useless advice.
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Dave, do you actually have any real world experience with block rot? If you did, you would know that just about NOBODY has succeeded with either welding on a plate, or epoxying. Stop giving useless advice.
The engine is leaking oil as it sits. When the engine runs, an alarming amount of oil comes out and gets everywhere. You can't touch anything in the engine compartment without your fingers coming off black. The oil coats the wires and the frame. It drips off of every surface. It coats the underside of the engine compartment cover. It gums up the air filter. It gets unto the vacuum lines.
And coolant is leaking into the oil, which thins it out. Perhaps this is why it leaks so prolifically.
I should also mention that I have a rather small work space:
Attachment 37290
I do have a friend with a large garage and a lift, about 60 miles away, but I wouldn't want to have to leave my car there and drive two hours every day to work on my car while we try to get it running after an engine swap... so the quickest solution would be the best one, for me.
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...e-computer.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by DPI JOSH
Ok then... Is it the stock locations where the EFI Injectors plug in at?
Correct on the turtle runners.
and to answer the above question. A 2.8 manifold will not fit a 3.0 properly even with the required .688 adapter flanges. Two different port styles and orientation creating a steep as (blank) step in the intake track.
(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
Turtles don't have 6 legs!
I know of 1 car that has been successfully repaired with epoxy. Not all have been successful. A lot has to do with prep. It was done by Rob at PJ Grady. I personally have done a lot of cast iron welding (not on Deloreans). How successful is all in the prep. If you are not comfortable with a repaired block then get another and move your parts over to it. If you buy a used motor you don't know how rotten it is or if it even works.
So to come full circle, ASSUMING all the options are available at a reasonable price, it sounds like the easiest alternative for an engine replacement is...
(In order of easiest to most difficult to swap)
1) replace with a used DMC engine;
2) replace with a used Volvo engine;
3) replace with a 3.0 engine;
4) replace with Chevy, Supra, etc. engine.
Correct?
It sounds as though you've just got a blown head gasket.Quote:
Originally Posted by Farrar
That will result in sludge that first clogs the oil breather cap as it tries to suck the crankcase gasses up to be burned off. Now it's sucking up a huge amount of water vapor that cools and condensates along with the oil inside of the cap and slowly clogs it up. Once that gets blocked, the excess pressure inside of the crank case will build and then cause the oil to spray a steady mist out of the front and rear main seals around the crank shaft. It just sprays oil everywhere. All across the rear bumper & muffler, and then the Crankshaft Pulley does double duty as it slings contaminated oil EVERYWHERE when it spins. Not to mention the turbulent airflow around the engine as you drive just causes the mist to go everywhere. I had this same exact problem. Then I popped the chain-like element out of the breather cap, dropped it into some Chemtool dip overnight, installed it the next day, and the problem went away.
For about 3 days. Which was about how long it took to "drink" about 3 quarts of coolant.
Now if the block itself is totally toasted, then yes, it's time to replace. But what I would first do is pull the intake manifold and check your epoxy repairs down in the VOD.
I don't know for sure since I'm not there, but it is possible that your epoxy repair was successful, and that you're just dealing with a blown head gasket. If that is the case, your cylinder heads just need to be checked out. If they're ok, you might just need to install some fresh head gaskets and be good to go.
ONE single one? Out of how many? Even if it is possible with the "proper prep" the chances are astronomically small, rendering it to be bad advice.Quote:
Originally Posted by David T
Not sure why you're bringing up cast iron, as that has nothing to do with the scenario either.
Repairing cast iron is similar to welding aluminum. It must be carefully prepped and the temperature closely controlled. It takes a certain knack, skill and experience to do it. Anyway, you are correct in that there are not a lot of successfully repaired blocks out there. Another point to make is most of the blocks that are repaired don't fail immediately, it takes a while so in the meantime you really don't know if the repair was successful. I am just trying to say it is possible to repair the block under the correct conditions. If you were to get another used motor how do you know if it isn't about to spring a leak? At least you know what you got and aren't going to spend a lot of money on a used part of dubious value. I consider repairing an option.
The engine that is currently in 5052 has been running with a welded motor mount ear since 2002 (the ear snapped off while trying to remove a seized / broken motor mount stud). I ended up taking the entire engine to a welding shop which was experienced in aluminum repairs. From what I recall, the repair cost was $80.
As long as the welder is knowledgeable in the art and skill of working with aluminum, they shouldn't have too much difficulty making a lasting repair.
Broken ear with clean material is much different that eroded aluminum in the valley. Block rot isn't a clean brake. The material decays to a fine dust.
I'm gonna shove a quarter or two in here and play...
http://www.ew.com/sites/default/file...cate_500_0.jpg
Stainless Steel and Aluminum both have a shared property where they create a thin layer of oxidation that actually seals the metal off and prevents further rust. Stainless protects the Carbon portion with its Chromium content to create Chromium Oxide. Aluminum just sacrifices the outer layer of itself to create Aluminum Oxide. Aluminum of course *can* corrode as we have seen with block rot. But, and someone please correct me if I'm wrong here, you need something like Mercury to act as an amalgamate to continually strip away that layer of aluminum Oxide to actually act as a cancer that has to be cut out before ALL aluminum is completely destroyed. Otherwise to weld up aluminum, you just need to cut a clean surface to weld back.
Likewise if we have rotting vegetation that creates the acidic environment that corrodes the aluminum, once the sludge is removed, the process is stopped completely.
Now if you have a hole down inside one of the pockets in the VOD, that *should* be repairable. Granted it's not an easy repair for both location, as well as fire risk with all of the oil on the other side. But why wouldn't welding fix block rot? Now I do admit that if the block rot has destroyed the ribs across the top of the pockets, yes, that block is possibly gone as those are structural supports for the entire block. Welding that up might be a different story all together.
So far, I honestly don't see how David T is wrong? And I'm not taking sides here at all. But I just want to get down to some basic fact finding on this.
And I know that we've gotten a bit off topic with Farrar's original question. But it seems that his engine might not be as bad as he thinks it is. And others who will encounter this problem in the future should also be able to know their options as well.
You are assuming that the block is bad only where it failed.... This conversation serves no purpose and continues to miseducated owners as with the rest of this forum as a whole. Public opinion is the most dangerous advice of all. People without the proper knowledge should be allocated into a private forum where view points and improper courses of action will not accidentally influence the general population without those reading being fully aware of the consequences of taking shade tree advice. It's simple. Block rots... Replace.
I wouldn't say that the conversation serves no purpose whatsoever. If you're saying that if there is block rot in one place, that chances are it's all over and thereby makes the entire block unsalvageable due to either integrity or cost prohibitive factors, I think that's a good thing to share.
I'm not here to simply "win" an argument. I'm just fact finding is all. If what you say is true, then you've absolutely changed my mind about things. My opinion changes on things as new facts get presented, as should other peoples' as well. No shame in that. But like you I just want to make sure that we don't have misinformation floating around.
Along these lines, we already know of the VOD. Where else should we check for block rot at when inspecting an engine/car?
The back two deep cavities are normally the worst. This is due to contamination build up etc in the back portion or a leaking hydraulic system on a manual car. The worst thing you can do is seal a block without properly cleaning. To do so prior to coating with anything you must chem dip, wash in a caustic tank, dip again, mask and media blast, pre prep with a moderate PH based cleaner and then coat. Sealing the valley other wise will take away the protection it normally has. If you remove the air from the situation and leave the contamination it will progress faster. Oxidation and build up of a contamination/shed layer is crucial if the block is not prepped properly.
The other two main issues are the head gasket surface near the oil returns. The gasket deteriorates over time due to carbon erosion. This is from oil contamination etc from the combustion process. The last major concern is sediment build up at the base of the liner cavities. Mainly but not always at the lowest point in the system. This will literally eat the block from the inside out and is the fate of most crate engines sold in the last ten years.
The aluminum pipe used in all the cooling system is another place I found pitting. It was mostly on the drivers side closer to the engine. It seemed to only be a problem under where the hose had been clamped onto the pipe. The inside of the pipes looked very clean. So it looks like the coolant has something to do with the corrosion.
That was back when I had money (a job) so I bought all new NOS pipes and had them powder coated.
Please tell me not on the inside of the pipes...
The inside was fine but the outside had a few pits that almost went through. The inside of the pipes on the right side of the car looked brand new. It's funny the pitting was under the hoses ends so it must be something with the hose rubber and coolant.Quote:
Originally Posted by DPI JOSH
This is very common on the pipe cap over the thermostat on all cars I've had.
Engine, not motor.Quote:
Originally Posted by David T
And anyway, there are some vendors who guarantee their engines to be not seized, not rusted, etc. and offer a 30-day return guarantee. So it's not necessarily as bad as you seem to think, perhaps.
From pessimism to optimism... So, what's the best head gasket to buy? Oh, never mind, I'll just call Josh at DPI, who only stocks the best. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by DMCVegas
I see there have been a boatload of replies since the last time I checked in. Sorry I haven't been around to answer them all -- either Gmail or vBulletin is doing something weird where I don't get notifications that there's been a reply to a thread I'm subscribed to until a few days after the reply has been posted.
Anyway, we got off the track a little bit, but I appreciate all of the input here so far.
What's the best way to test for a head gasket leak without the engine running? I have a compression tester ... should I hook it up and look for bubbles in the coolant?
-Farrar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Farrar
Honestly yes, call Josh on this one. And please, let us know what you find too. I've heard rumors that the Fel Pro gaskets are the way to go compared to the Volvo ones, and that the stock DMCH ones aren't as good as what went on at the factory in Douvrin... So I've no damn clue as to what is going on, and wouldn't be in any position to give advice on that one.
No worries at all. My wife is going to school to finish her degree, and working at the same time. So I know how hectic things can get.Quote:
Originally Posted by Farrar
As for blown head gaskets, it's funny because we were talking about that not too long ago in another thread.
http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?12537-Ooze-Theory
I've got two engines, one with a good head gasket, and one with a blown one. I finally got around to creating a side-by-side comparison of the photos that I promised previously, and here they are. The first photo is of the oil filler cap.
http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/...psbozpy7yb.jpg
On the left you can see the Oil Filler Cap from the PRV with a blown Head Gasket. Lots of people will tell you that when water gets into oil, it looks like chocolate milk. Now that might be true for differentials and whatnot when that oil gets exposed to muddy water. But when it's coolant that gets mixed in with engine oil, it looks nothing like chocolate milk. It looks like snot.
On the right side you see a clean oil cap on a properly running engine with a good head gasket. Inside of the Oil Filler Cap is part #102418; Filter Cartridge. DMCH doesn't sell, or even list this part. I've no idea why. But rest assured, it is serviceable. The bottom insert pops right out with a screwdriver. When you pull it out, it looks like a roll of chain link fencing that someone clipped together. Drop it in a bucket of parts cleaner, and it's good to go. But again, this is where Crank Case gasses get sucked up into the intake to be burned off. They all get pulled through that Filter. I imagine that it is probably for situations just like this, to keep the intake manifold and air inlet assembly clean. So when enough of this goop goes in there to get clogged, that's when you have excess pressures build up in the crank case. And the only real way out for them is though the main seals on the crankshaft ends.
Next up are the Oil Filler Necks.
http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/...pshovfl5ll.jpg
Again the engine with the blown head gasket is on the left. The first thing that you notice is the absence of a screen. I don't even know what the part number for that thing is. But what I do know is that it's this clear-ish plastic screen that just sits down in there. It looks gold because it's been stained by the oil. But if an engine ever overheats at all, that little screen will melt faster than a crayon on asphalt in summertime. It becomes this deformed, white blob of plastic that starts to drip down. Looks nasty. And during the next oil change it'll be removed. Now I don't know if the 3.0L engines have that screen. But what I can tell you about the 2.7 & 2.8 models is if you ever see that screen deformed or missing, you know you're dealing with an over heated engine.
Also, look at the top of the Filler Neck. You can see all of that rust from where the water vapor has been condensing.
Now I don't know if there is a specific way for you to check the liners at the bottom of the block for leaking per se. But once you slide the heads off, you should see some obvious damage of where the head gasket is torn/deformed, and there would be streaks of coolant or rust where there shouldn't be any.
Robert, that greenish/yellowish crap is EXACTLY what my car has had on the bottom of its oil cap for over three years. I was told that I simply wasn't driving the car enough to get it hot, and so condensation was collecting there, and just to change the oil more often. Well, live and learn.
I have never once seen that plastic filter screen. Thanks for the photo. That was informative -- and disheartening. It means that my car's engine had been overheated and the previous owner never even told me about it. I guess I overpaid. Again, live and learn.
I looked up what it takes to change a head gasket on a PRV. There is absolutely no way I can do that -- there are too many special tools required, and I, too, am finishing out college while working part-time.
It looks like I will have to prepare this car for long-term storage. I graduate in the spring, and after that I will (I hope) have a full-time job again, and I will have new options to consider after that time.
Thanks, everyone, for all your help and suggestions -- and Robert especially for the photos.
I guess one way to check for a head gasket leak is to look at your oil dipstick two days apart and if the level goes up, yet you're dripping oil on the floor, you've got a head gasket leak. Another symptom I guess is coolant disappearing from the expansion tank.
Looks like Robert's diagnosis was right on. I've put the car up on jackstands and am draining the oil/coolant tonight. Going to prep the car for long-term inactivity.
Thanks for all your help, gang!
+1, thanks Robert that was very informative for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Farrar
Sorry to hear the diagnosis, Farrar.
That whole, "You're not driving the car to get it hot enough" line really only applies if you live in a very cold climate, where you never warm your engine up before driving, and your commute is so short that the bitter cold never lets it warm up. On top of that, it also has to do with the particular engine design too. The Chrysler PowerTech engines with their oil filler necks are perfect examples of this. Not just a design problem, but also a very common one too. So if this was a problem with your DeLorean not warming up as these people told you, trust me that it would be a common enough issue that it would have been covered decades ago.
Make sure that if nothing else, you also prep the fuel system before you drain the coolant and decommission the engine. Otherwise you'll have to pull the injectors and let them spray into some jars or something to do this. Burning the fuel off inside of the engine is a bit safer though. That way when you're ready to get the car back onto the road, you won't have to deal with an expensive fuel system repair.
Now I don't know about the risks of rust on the crankshaft, connecting rods, bearings, and oil passages. But that snot is probably all over the inside of the engine. I had asked Rob Grady about long-term problems with internal rust on the PRV in that other thread, but he never responded. So I don't know if there is a risk of internal rust causing permanent damage, or if you can just pull the block and get it hot tanked.*â€*
In any case, if you DO have a blown head gasket, where water has gone into the combustion chambers (mine started with just water in the oil passages with no steam in the exhaust), you're also going to want to pull the spark plugs, and vacuum, or blow all of the water out of them. Then when you're done and the cylinders are dry, fog the combustion chambers. I know that Sta-Bil and Marvel Mystery Oil can both be used, just make certain that they, or whatever other product you choose to use, are safe for catalytic convertors.
Right now you're planning ahead for the future. The biggest problem with that is that we never know what the future holds in store. 6 months turned into 10 years for me. So please, learn from my mistakes. You've got to go ahead and plan for that worst case scenario. Along those lines too, you've also got to keep some options open, and decide about what you might just want to do down the line. You've got some block problems, and who knows about what else might be going on. Probably nothing else, though Josh does say that you probably do have other problems. In any case, it might just be easier to drop a 3.0L in with EFI rather than rebuild your 2.8L. Plus you could sell of the K-Jetronic parts to offset the cost.
Or you could even go with another engine swap entirely. Who knows. But I would at least plan on preserving as much as you currently have right now in order to keep your options open later.
*Old Fashioned "Hot Tank" chemicals are NOT safe for aluminum blocks. There are however less caustic chemicals now that are safe for aluminum. You just have to find a shop that offers that service.
â€*Given the fact that you already have an epoxy repair on the VOD for block rot, you also might want to instead clean the disassembled block by hand. Get a blow gun to blow out passages, and some Simple Green, if not Chemtool as well. And rest assured, it will probably be messy. But, it could save the block. If you wanted.
Thanks for the info, Robert. Since I have at least two "block rot" holes in the engine valley, I plan to just replace the engine when time allows.