It is sitting all alone in a cold garage... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by opethmike
-- Joe
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It is sitting all alone in a cold garage... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by opethmike
-- Joe
TS offset adjustment isn’t an option if you want it to be accurate. Very good to check it out and get it situated now before going in deeper. Let us know what you find.Quote:
Originally Posted by jangell
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yup, that's the piece I was missing -- I found a picture of the pulley when not on the car, and it's clearly much more than 6 teeth off of the top (assuming I'm looking at it right). This would account for the position of the VR sensor when combined with the BAC firing order.Quote:
Originally Posted by dn010
I was just curious about how the sensor position and firing order worked with regards to the gear I have. I didn't have to think about it before, so I just bolted the parts on, but now I want to know how the alignment works. It all makes sense now. (I think. I'm not going to worry about it too much.) Of course, it's really hard to see what it looks like mounted in the car, with the belts blocking the view and the muffler limiting what I can see, so I have to resort to old pictures.
Thanks again
-- Joe
Attachment 54818
From the looks of that tooth wheel, looks like six teeth is a lot more than 10 degree. Or does that 6 tooth count have nothing to do with base timing? How many teeth are on the wheel?
Sorry, it’s a 36-1 missing tooth gear, so each tooth is 5 degrees, and from the leading edge of one tooth to the leading edge of the next should be 10 degrees. In a normal EDIS setup, the VR sensor has to be 6 teeth before the missing tooth (so, 60 degrees), but I think everything is offset to make it easier to mount the VR sensor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bitsyncmaster
— Joe
You should really research some articles on this for the information you're looking for if you'd like a better understanding.
Here is a moving picture of how the wheel and sensor can be: https://wiki.autosportlabs.com/Ford_...al_information
Again, you can have the wheel and sensor at ANY position, as long as the missing tooth is 6 teeth away and the crank is at TDC, as you can see in the above site.
I believe this webpage will answer many, if not all, of your questions.
http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/EDIS.htm
The EDIS will fire a coil based on the missing tooth. It sees the missing tooth pattern, knows exactly where TDC is and then fires the proper coil accordingly as the crank and wheel turns. If you have a bad sensor, your engine will crank but not start because EDIS isn't seeing where TDC is in order to fire a coil. The coil is set up ABC but the EDIS fires it ACB, meaning it fires left coil first, right coil second and the middle third - and your wires need to be arranged accordingly. If you put the spark wires on thinking it fires ABC you'll be misfiring because the two coils have the spark wires wrong. The firing order is 1 6 3 5 2 4. 1&5 are connected to A coil, 6 & 2 to the C coil and 3 & 4 to the B coil.
Since you're doing COP, I do not know how this impacts you.
I’ve been referencing that MS EDIS page you linked to quite a lot lately. I understand how EDIS is set up and how the missing tooth gear is read by the the VR sensor and EDIS, then sent to MS, and how MS sends back the timing offset for EDIS to actually fire the plugs. I also understand that the placement of the VR sensor relative to the missing tooth on the gear and TDC is important to get a correct reading, and how to time EDIS from a running engine by disabling the input from MS to enable the EDIS limp-home mode so that I can read exactly the timing with a timing gun, then adjust the VR sensor until it is exactly 10 degrees.
It’s more that the documentation that Josh sent me for his setup uses BAC firing order instead of ACB, but that’s just ACB rolled to the right one letter — the sequence is the same, but rotated 120 degrees. This, and possibly the location of the missing tooth relative to the top of the pulley (which that animation you linked to clearly illustrates — thanks), may explain the location of the VR sensor in his setup (the lower left side of the pulley). This is what I’m wondering about — the decisions that led to BAC, the sensor position and the toothed gear offset. I think it’s a just slightly unconventional setup, but that it does work properly. I’m doing this more from curiosity, since I know Josh’s setup worked on his car. It doesn’t have anything to do with actually testing the timing at this point.
Just to clarify, I think Josh both offset the VR sensor by some amount of teeth, AND he offset everything by another 120 degrees by using BAC instead of ACB. I admit I was a bit fuzzy on the sensor 6 teeth off from the missing tooth irrespective of where the top of the gear is until you posted that animation, so that was very helpful. I just wish I could see the pulley on my engine better with the belt in the way so I could count the teeth from TDC to the missing tooth, and from there to the VR pulley, so that I knew for sure how everything was set up and if BAC is really correct.
And I do believe you are completely correct about the timing being off by a significant amount, quite likely far more than 3 degrees given the amount of adjustment available in the VR sensor bracket, and that I need to address this before anything else. I don’t think CoP has any effect on this, other than how I hook up the timing gun, which now doesn’t seem like it’s going to be a problem.
Fixing the timing will definitely be the first thing I address when I get a chance to get back to the garage.
— Joe
The coil on plug functions EXACTLY the same as the common coil pack and spark plug wires. It is still wired up as batch ignition. I kept breaking spark plug wires so I went this route.
The trigger wheel was welded onto the crank pulley 6 teeth off TDC.
Please, correct me if I am wrong- but doesn't each COP need one pin to have +12VDC and the other pin to have the input from EDIS module in order to fire? According to your wiring diagram, only 4-5-6 gets the +12VDC while 1-2-3 only get the signal from the EDIS module.
The two coils are hooked up in serial. The path is EDIS -> Coil 1 -> Coil 2 -> 12v. Since the coils only have two pins, you can just insert another coil in between, as long as there's enough power to actually drive the coil. It's the same idea as putting two light bulbs on the same circuit behind a switch, where the switch controls both lights together. When the EDIS pulls the pin low, it completes the circuit and lets power flow through both coils to 12v.Quote:
Originally Posted by dn010
I guess hooking them up in parallel would have worked too (EDIS Pin 12 -> Coil 1 -> 12v, and EDIS Pin 12 -> Coil 2 -> 12v). I think that provides a more dedicated power source to the coils, since both coils aren't stressing the same wires, but I'm a bit fuzzy on that, and I'm not sure the difference in load is enough to matter in this situation. I know JUST enough electronics to make an Arudino control some things in my house and in response ti my computer, but I'm certainly no expert on any of this.
-- Joe
It would work the same series or parallel so long as the same cylinders are paired together. It is hardwired, so if there is an error in the firing order you cannot simply swap around plug wires. It does not take much power to drive the coils.
Its looking like this is a tuning issue, the engine is running lean.
I will get you the tune file tonight, but it will require work for the bigger injectors. For simplicity's sake if you have the original injectors that were in the lost package, I would use them. The tune will need adjustments still though.
Thanks. I’m sure I have the 19 lb injectors around somewhere... I’m willing to go through the tuning process from scratch, just to learn it and understand the conditions that require tuning which properties, but I’m also curious how your tune works with my engine, and to be able to compare the two. And I might just be lazy and use your tune and then auto-tune on top of that anyway. :)
— Joe
Honestly that will probably get you 90% of the way there. Check your email, I sent you the tune.Quote:
Originally Posted by jangell
Which injectors do you have in there now?
the tune was based on 19s, he has 21s (ford pink tops)Quote:
Originally Posted by Drive Stainless
Ah, OK. I am using 24s currently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh
Thats a lot of injector!Quote:
Originally Posted by Drive Stainless
Something i learned from LS-land. The stock LS1 Injectors drop right in (same plug and everything) and are rated at 29#
Be very sure to not let autotune adjust more than one step either lean or rich. It has a habit of going bonkers and going far too lean or far too rich. Don't expect it to get it perfect either, just close. Once close, turn on EGO correction.Quote:
Originally Posted by jangell
I usually use autotune with cell change resistance on "hard" or "very hard" to limit excessive table massaging. I know some of y'all don't like AT but I find it a useful solo cruise-state fine-tuning option. But usage is definitely more complex than the street name implies and is only a companion to common sense. That's partially my own fault due to scheduling, I might only be able to squeeze in 30 minutes of tuning & data capture here and there.
One comical autotune situation: if you have an excessive peak or valley in the VE table, you will create a cell that cannot exist functionally, and this will confound AT.
For example, if somehow your 2800 RPM @ 85KPa has a number that's 10 points lower than the surrounding cells, the engine will never be able to operate at that point and you'll orbit the cell instead of passing through it. In this case, AT will never gather proper data for that region. If you try to drive around in "very easy" mode these peaks can happen and can exacerbate themselves. It's like trying trying to iron flat a piece of tinfoil with a rock under it. Or, I once put a stalactite in my table through some combo of the Tuner Studio interface, trying to wrangle a laptop in the car, and a sensitive touchpad.
Realistically a VE table for a 2.8 or 3.0 will be pretty pedestrian. Get a helper, hit the back roads, gather data at a few steady states, then interpolate. There will be a bump near peak torque. IMHO you'll probably spend more time trying to get WUE / ASE / AE correct.
Just as a funny aside, on the return trip of the maiden voyage, I would occasionally encounter these oscillations on the highway. I thought for sure I had some goof-up in either the fuel or timing tables. But it would come and go, it was very strange. My wife was watching the laptop and relaying the numbers to me but it just didn't add up as to why I could feel this pulsing, and the indicator was doing laps around a section of VE and timing with reasonably similar numbers so it didn't seem to be fuel or spark. It would go away under load so it wasn't a mechanical or injector issue. Looking at the data afterward I discovered that I had engine states misconfigured (TPS-low calibration was too high) and it was going into idle mode at 80MPH. I was feeling the effects of the idle valve opening and closing. Sitting on my workbench now is a set of round-head axle bolts and geartooth sensor for VSS, which will put a permanent stop to any such misconfigurations :D
Quick update: I'm pretty sure I found my problem -- EDIS channels B and C weren't firing at all, which I traced to the wires at the bulkhead connector no longer being attached to the bulkhead connector. I'm going to fix this tomorrows and hopefully get the car idling properly after that. To be honest, I'm surprised the car even tried to run on only two cylinders, much less that it could actually sort of idle.
I also figured out why my oil sender wasn't working (forgot to plug it in, basically), put back together some of the interior, went through the MegaSquirt Setup Guide to make sure the injectors are firing, tested the IAC (pretty sure it's working, although I imaged to fire a pintle across the garage...), sensors are working, compared my tune to Josh's, watched some videos about MS to get a better understanding of how to set things up and use the VE table, tried to relocate my fuel pressure gauge (just wound up spraying fuel all over the engine), and completely screwed up my turn signals (which I'll start another thread about). But I'm making progress. :)
Tomorrow (Christmas Day) is likely the last time I'll be able to work on the car for 1-2 weeks, as it's going to be below freezing for as far out as the forecasts will predict, and there's no heat in the cheap garage I rent. Hopefully I'll get a few warm weekends so I do more work and start tuning.
I'll report back tomorrow evening. Thanks again everyone!
-- Joe
I fixed the wiring to EDIS channels B and C, but I spent most of the day diagnosing a turn signal/dash light/hazard switch problem (that I'm still working on) and I didn't actually get around to testing it. It's going to be below freezing here for at least a week, so it'll be a bit before I can get back to it. Hopefully once I get the lighting issue fixed I'll find that the spark is working correctly and I'll be ready to dial in the idle and get to tuning.
-- Joe