Not to worry, thanks for trying! :)
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Not to worry, thanks for trying! :)
Thanks all all your support guys. Like I said, I'm not giving up! I see that there is a need for the struts and I'm working hard on getting another "real" manufacturer to make it happen for real.Quote:
Originally Posted by acaciolo
This company owes me just over 2000 Euro which equals to just under $2800. The first order was for 100 units.
I made it pretty clear that I will not let them get away with it and they're telling me that they just need to prepare their paperwork and they will send the refund next week. The problem is that they are only willing to refund 50% of the initial price. We'll see what happens.
As for the struts... For some reason they don't want them back. I guess I might offer them as a budget solution to droopy doors. Maybe that way I'll get the other half of my money back. What do you guys think about this?
I have a couple of quotes from other European manufacturers and I'm still awaiting a few more. One German manufacturer (no, it's not Stabilus) is quoting me $45 each with an order of 500 units. Another German manufacturer has given me a quote of €33.50 ($45.60) each with minimum order of 100 units BUT the strut would be 425mm long while ours are 365mm. I don't get it... I ask them for 365 and they send me a quote for 425. That's 60mm (2 and 1/3 inch) longer! Interesting approach to "tolerance"...
Hrmph.
So, you received your order, but they were made in china. What else specifically makes them low quality? Are they completely different from your initial example sets? Do they still function as required? Curious.
Jim, I did receive my order, but I don't think they were made in China. I received a quality control sheet in one of the boxes which I believe was supposed to be removed before the box was sent to me. There are no Chinese characters on it and the names are not Chinese either. India maybe... I don't know.Quote:
Originally Posted by dmc6960
The production struts do not function as required. They are similar in appearance to the example sets but do look a bit cheaper. The real problem is the damping function. It would be difficult to find two that work the same. In some cases there is no damping and the strut hits it's limit with such force that it's scary. Others are too slow with a few that are extremely slow. I found one where the initial travel would take just 1.5 seconds and then it would slow down so much that it took another 40 seconds to reach the end of the travel. If I was to offer them I would choose the ones that are good and I would discard the ones that have no damping or are too fast or too slow.
Their force is mostly good at around 1200N but I did find one with just 1090N. The allowed tolerance is + or - 30N.
The initial example units were perfect. They all worked exactly as they should with perfect force, perfect speed and perfect damping. Unfortunately I don't know who made them. It wasn't this manufacturer.
not professional at all! I really hate when manufacturers do this kind of things..Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomcio
Sounds like they outsourced the project/order to some other firm. Maybe they realized they would loose too much money if they produced the struts themselves.
Well, maybe. Who knows. This is a real manufacturer and they do make struts. The price increase they were trying to force on me twice seems to confirm your idea. They made the first test units themselves but then realized that the price they quoted me was too low. So, they just had them made in some other country. Believe me, the writing on the test sheet is in some strange language I don't even know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris 16409
Anyway... the quest is on to find a real manufacturer that will be able to produce high quality gas struts at a reasonable price. So far the quotes I get are around €40 - €50 per unit. That's pretty expensive as it equals to $55 - $68. That's my price, before taxes and shipping. So, the search is on.
There is one interesting offer... A local manufacturer that offers some interesting technical improvements. One of them is a special type of piston that doesn't use hydraulic damping. Instead the piston dampens the movement by some other means, don't know how, yet. The advantage is that the strut can be mounted in any orientation (piston rod up or down or sideways). There are no seals to dry out which sounds really nice. They are working on a quote for me and I should have the details this coming week.
Stay tuned...
Here's a quote from a great movie (can you guess what movie that is?):
Never give up, never surrender!
Too easy :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomcio
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBk6EI4c7p0
Spot on! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by NightFlyer
Sorry to hear that, hope you manage to find another supplier. Is the LED marker lights project still going, I remember you ran into supplier problems there as well?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomcio
As a matter of fact I did find more than one supplier. Three confirmed and one still working on the drawings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starglider
I have already received a first test set. This set is all black and we got all the dimensions confirmed. We also got the required force confirmed to be correct. The second stage is to get the correct speed and damping so the door doesn't shoot up and bounce at the top and doesn't take weeks to open fully. Things are a bit slow as this is the middle of the summer and it's the middle of vacation season. If all goes well I should have at least three versions of the door struts - all black, OEM colors, brushed/polished stainless. This time I'm talking with some serious people and well known brands. All four manufacturers supply major car manufacturers in Europe.
The LED project is still on but it's currently on hold. The problem I had with that was not the supplier but the product itself. I got a bad batch of LEDs but the supplier refunded the full purchase price. I got some high quality name brand LEDs from another supplier and I just have to find the time to get back to it. The door lights and side marker lights are coming... I'm still here... :)
Hi everyone!
My quest for finding a reliable manufacturer is continuing... I have narrowed down the field to four companies from three countries. One of those manufacturers is Stabilus, the OEM for the DeLorean factory. It wasn't easy to get Stabilus on board because... now, get this... bad experience with a DeLorean parts supplier a few years ago. For obvious reasons they will not give me any details but word is that Stabilus lost a lot of money on that deal and decided not to produce any parts for the DeLorean in the future. So, when I gave them the original part number for the door strut I received a very quick answer "This part number will not be produced EVER". I got them to assign a new part number and convinced them that this is a different project and different people involved. The struts can be produced but only if I do not sell them to some certain people. This will be a gentleman agreement with no signatures but I will most definitely stick with it.
At this time I have received technical drawings for the new struts along with the new part number and all technical details like force, speed, damping, etc. I have also received a quote and the prices are fairly high in my opinion. For a large quantity order the price will be €66 each. That's $88 US or $176 for a set of 2 plus shipping. What do you guys think?
The other three manufacturers offer better, lower prices. I have received samples from one of them. They look nice...
Attachment 29857
With those manufacturers I will be able to keep the prices I've posted before. $35 each for those who are on my pre-order list and $45 each for all new orders with free shipping. In other words, Stabilus is twice the price.
The remaining two manufacturers are working on test samples and I should be receiving them soon. I will post as soon as I have some info...
Warranty information is pretty much the same for all four manufacturers - 2 years or 30.000 cycles whichever comes first. The strut needs to be mounted with piston rod down and operated at least a few times a month when not in use.
The question for now is: Is anyone interested in getting Stabilus struts at about $185 - $190 per set (shipping included)?
At twice the price would they last twice as long? If so then that may be acceptable but how would we ever know without years of testing. My "soft lift" struts are getting a little weak after 3 or 4 years. Interesting they want them to be used a few times a month. I guess it keeps the seals oiled.
I was interested by the chrome version, but now i think they will only be available in black, and at that price, I don't think I would be able to buy them, sorry.
I'd rather keep the money for the Led side marker next time.
You're right, it's impossible to know and so that's why I quoted the warranty terms which are pretty much the same for all manufacturers - 2 years or 30.000 cycles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bitsyncmaster
Honestly, I do believe that they will last longer but I doubt it will be twice as long.
Yes, the conditions for storage say that the strut needs to be operated to keep the seals lubricated. You are right.
I'm not sure what you mean by chrome version. The most common type is all black but I'm also working on a OEM colored version where the piston rod is chrome.Quote:
Originally Posted by Domi
Looking at my pre-order list I got your name down for a set of stainless struts and those will be available a bit later on. They will be available!
Yes, you're right, my mistake, Stainless not chrome.
All right, keep us in touch.
Thanks!
Sounds like there's some salacious info in the back story here. Curious - is the parts vendor/supplier mentioned as having ripped off Stabilus still in active operation today, I wonder, or did they go the way of the do-do bird?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomcio
I would be interested in a black set from Stabilus, but couldn't buy them right away, but probably later in the year or early next year (second surgery for my cat has left me pretty drained of discretionary funds recently, unfortunately).
On another note, I'm trying to figure out where the info comes from (other than the Concours manual) that the stock/OEM struts did indeed have a black housing with a chrome piston/shaft and end ball? I believe the door struts on my car to be stock/OEM, but they're all black. They're Stabilus and have been on the car since before I bought it - over 12+ years anyway. Maybe later on today, I can get the part number off my struts and post it here.
I have to keep my word and so I can't disclose the name or any other info. I don't want to start an argument either...Quote:
Originally Posted by NightFlyer
Without actually disclosing any additional information I can say that since I was told not to sell the struts to those people I believe it's pretty obvious that they are still active today.
Don't worry about it. If we decide to go with this manufacturer this will not be a one time deal. The plan is to have the struts in stock or on very short order.Quote:
I would be interested in a black set from Stabilus, but couldn't buy them right away, but probably later in the year or early next year (second surgery for my cat has left me pretty drained of discretionary funds recently, unfortunately).
This info comes from one of my cars that has just 8k miles on it and everything is as it came from the factory. Also, I spoke to Rob Grady and he confirmed the original factory color scheme.Quote:
On another note, I'm trying to figure out where the info comes from (other than the Concours manual) that the stock/OEM struts did indeed have a black housing with a chrome piston/shaft and end ball? I believe the door struts on my car to be stock/OEM, but they're all black. They're Stabilus and have been on the car since before I bought it - over 12+ years anyway. Maybe later on today, I can get the part number off my struts and post it here.
Here's some more info about the different color combinations:
There were two versions of Stabilus strut. Here's what they look like:
Attachment 29896
Both are Stabilus Lift-O-Mat
The one on top is the one that was installed at the factory. The colors are:
Black mount - black cylinder - silver chrome piston rod - gold mount
The one on the bottom is all black and has a part number 867691 and was produced later (this one is from 1998 ). The colors are:
Black mount - black cylinder - black piston rod - black mount
Stabilus says that the first version was produced in Germany. The all black unit that I have was made in Mexico.
Here's a close-up picture of the markings:
Attachment 29897
This is a close-up view of the factory original piston rod and mount:
Attachment 29898
This is a close-up view of the later version piston rod and mount:
Attachment 29899
According to Stabilus they stopped chrome coating piston rods in early 1990s as the black nitrate coating is cheaper to produce and more durable. Currently they do not offer chrome plated rods.
For concurs quality one manufacturer has agreed to producing chrome plated rods.
I will be offering three types - all black, OEM three colors and stainless steel. All black and stainless will be available directly through me while OEM colored ones will be available through a stateside vendor. I will post details when the struts are actually available.
Tom, if you decide to go with Stabilus, will they be made in Mexico or Germany. The Mexican made ones weren't as good, so if we're paying $80 a strut, it would be nice if they were made in Germany.
That's GREAT info Tom - thanks for sharing :thumbup:
It's possible that my struts are three colored, but just oily and oxidized, causing them to appear all black. I'm definitely going to have to check them out (didn't get to look at them today, unfortunately).
Regardless, I haven't seen anything do a better job or last as long as struts with the Stabilus brand name on them, regardless of whether they were produced in Germany or Mexico. I do have (confirmed) the stock/OEM louver Stabilus struts, and they're good as new still (though I did have to replace the stock/OEM hood struts with Grady's struts from the early 2000s - which are also still working as new to this day).
Grady use to cover the Sabilus logo with his "PJ Grady" stickers.
Since I'm in Poland I just have to go across the border to be in Germany.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris 16409
The struts would be made in Germany.
Stabilus is probably the best manufacturer when it comes to gas struts but I'm not sure if it's twice as good as the others... warranty terms are pretty much the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by NightFlyer
Hood and louver struts last a lot longer because of the much lower internal pressure and load. Door struts are actually at the manufacturing limits when it comes to pressure and force for their size. All manufacturers suggested a larger diameter cylinder and piston for this force...
There will be no sticker now. The logo will be laser etched and will not cover the manufacturer logo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris 16409
Unfortunately Stabilus and other manufacturers cannot offer their struts without their safety warning information. I don't like it and I would much prefer the struts without it but current regulations do not allow manufacturers to ship struts without safety info clearly visible.
Good news everyone!
I just got off the phone with Stabilus people and my negotiations were very successful! I got them to lower the price significantly and we're moving ahead! Test sets are currently on order and as soon as testing is done I will go ahead and order the full production run.
I can't give you an exact final price yet but we're looking at somewhere in a range of $60 each or $120 for a set of two. That price includes worldwide shipping. Please note that this is NOT the final price! The actual price might be a little different and I mean a LITTLE! A few dollars more or less and I sure hope it will be less ;)
So, it looks like I'll be offering three or four different options to choose from:
1. Original Stabilus struts made in Germany (all black) - $120 for a set of two
2. High quality struts made in Poland (all black) - $90 for a set
3. High quality struts made in Germany in OEM colors - $90 for a set
4. Stainless steel struts made in Germany (polished or brushed) - about $170 per set
I'm very excited about all this... I will update this thread as new info becomes available.
Excellent news! Great work Tomico :)
Indeed it is great news :)
Thank You!
Besides offering high quality DeLorean specific products you are also mending OEM relationships? Amazing.
In for a set in the original colors.
I just noticed our Friend over at SpecialTAuto has added something new to his front page. He is now apparently selling German made Stabilus gas struts. How is that possible? Something doesn't smell right.
Attachment 30148
Interesting find. Looking forward to Tom's response :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris 16409
The last set I got from John (about 6 months ago) are Stabilus made in Germany. Thought it ironic at the time sent from Europe to the States and back to Europe again!
Chris
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Hervey's are probably a crossover part to some other application. What Tom is looking at doing is having the parts manufactured to the original specs instead of settlilng for something close enough. If Stabilus has to custom make these for Tom it then it means the correct parts currently do not exist. . . So I don't see how it's possible Hervey's are correct.
John has always offered Stabilus struts via his website, however, they were always previously listed with the caveat/disclaimer "only when available," suggesting that they were not something that he regularly stocked or could even regularly obtain.
The part that I find most interesting is in his timing of deciding to main page headline them shortly after Tom makes his announcement about making a deal with Stabilus to run some DeLorean specific door struts.
Not sure what Hervey is actually selling in regards to his Stabilus struts, and if you call to ask him, I'm pretty sure that you'll just get the regular old story about how he has sold 50,000 pairs of them over his lifetime, 2,000 pairs last week alone, and never had a single complaint about them from anyone, without receiving an actual answer to the question you asked.
Again, it will be interesting to hear Tom's assessment of the situation....
It's interesting in the wording he uses. He says newly updated "Stabilus Soft Lift" door struts. His "soft loft" struts were not Stabilus, so it's weird he is using that name in combination with Sabilus now.
I am aware of his offer as he has posted about this on the DML a few days ago. I've asked him a few questions but they remain unanswered...
When I read his post on the DML I have contacted Stabilus to find out why they told me they will not be making them and then agreed only because my order came from Poland and not the US and only if I don't sell them to a specific vendor in the US. I asked them how is it that they are making and shipping those struts to the US while telling me another story. Their answer was that they are NOT making anything that fits our length and force requirements. The next day I received an email confirming that Stabilus in NOT making anything that would fit our cars. There was also a note stating that this information is confirmed and final.
The fact is that if they were making something that would fit the DeLorean exactly I wouldn't have to go through the entire design and testing process. They would simply grab the specs from their computer and be done with it. In our case the designs were destroyed and deleted from their system as the original part number was marked "do not produce". In order to have them made I needed to start from scratch...
Here's a design drawing that had to be made (I have deleted some info like my part number):
Attachment 30169
My opinion... Chinese manufacturers will print any logo if your order is large enough.
My feelings... I don't like what John did. He noticed that I'm running behind because of the bad manufacturer I've come accross and noticed that there's a lot of interest in the struts. So, apparently he ordered another batch of the struts he already had but this time with Stabilus logo on them. In my opinion this was very unprofessional and just plain not nice. But... apparently there's no such thing as nice when it comes to a business deal. In my case making DeLorean parts is like a hobby, something that I really enjoy and not a way to make a living. I usually make something for my own car and if there's interest I make more of it and offer it for sale. Then there's that thing about being nice to others... a while back I was making stainless steel pistons for my brake calipers. I called John and asked him about it. He said that he is making them and so I backed out as not to compete with him because he asked me no to. Apparently I don't understand the basic rules of "good" business...
I am still going ahead with the production and I will offer my door struts as soon as I can. I will not rush things trying to beat anyone and I will not go with the cheapest manufacturer. I will offer a high quality product that I can be proud of. Oh, and please remember that my prices ALWAYS include the shipping costs.
One more thing I'd like to add:
When I was getting quotes from different manufacturers I have received VERY similar numbers across the board. There were exceptions - China was a lot cheaper. Stabilus was the most expensive one. John is offering the door struts at $56.90 (pair) which is $28.45 each. The break points for manufacturer quotes are for orders of 100, 250, 500 and 1000 units. Stabilus price at 1000 units is HIGHER than that! Shipping from the factory is additional. So, this price is simply not possible unless John has ordered 10,000 units and they were made in Mexico. Shipping from Germany would be expensive and you have to take duty and taxes into account!
I do my best :)Quote:
Originally Posted by PB Co
I've added your name to my pre-order list. I will let you know when they become available.
Very interesting - thanks for the info Tom :thumbup:
I'm still in with you, but won't be ready to order until later this year or early next year.
Tom, I didn't mention in my other posts, but I am in for a pair of your authentic German made Stabilus door struts.
Tom, I appreciate the detailed explanation as I'm sure many others do. Thanks for keeping us well informed of the situation.
All very interesting, perhaps I have fake ones then! I will have to go and get some part numbers from them, If I can remove the stickers! However I too will be interested in replacing the door ones with OEM when they are required, at the moment though Harveys are fine.
Chris
You may not want the struts specified the same as original if they now have "soft lift" operation. I would think a little more force would make them last longer since the soft lift prevents bounce.
It's also interesting John now has soft lift for all the struts. I don't see the need of soft lift on the others but again specifying more force would make them last longer.
Same here, mine could do with a replacement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris 16409