BTTF Time Machine Build Questions - Ask Me Anything

I do have an excel spreadsheet that I've created over the years with part numbers/sources and other info on various parts. The issue with sharing it as it currently stands is that a lot of the information was shared with me by other people and isn't necessarily mine to post publicly... or in some cases I don't even know if the person who shared with me would care if I shared it.

My list also contains sources for some of the parts that I've given others in private but that I wouldn't post on a public board. The issue with openly posting sources is that while most people will buy what they need for themselves and let the next guy do the same, you'll also end up with one or two people that buy up everything they can get their hands on and then try to sell it for 10x profit. I get that we live in a capitalistic society and that's how things work, but in a small community of builders it can actually make things worse for a lot of people if sources are out there for the world to see.

A lot of builders joined together at one point in time to share everything among ourselves and we worked together for years to figure out just about every single part on the car. It took a village to figure out some of the mysteries but eventually we were able to figure out as a team what one person could have never done by themselves. Even still, some of the for-profit types went to extreme lengths to literally steal information or paid other people to buy parts so they could get their hands on them. It sounds insane but people do crazy things when money is involved.

Anyway, long story short is that if you have a specific question I can give you answers on a almost everything. It would take some doing though to figure out what I could blanket share in one large file dump without crossing any lines with people I'm working with or have worked with in the past.

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Originally Posted by Mark D

I do have an excel spreadsheet that I've created over the years with part numbers/sources and other info on various parts. The issue with sharing it as it currently stands is that a lot of the information was shared with me by other people and isn't necessarily mine to post publicly... or in some cases I don't even know if the person who shared with me would care if I shared it.

My list also contains sources for some of the parts that I've given others in private but that I wouldn't post on a public board. The issue with openly posting sources is that while most people will buy what they need for themselves and let the next guy do the same, you'll also end up with one or two people that buy up everything they can get their hands on and then try to sell it for 10x profit. I get that we live in a capitalistic society and that's how things work, but in a small community of builders it can actually make things worse for a lot of people if sources are out there for the world to see.

A lot of builders joined together at one point in time to share everything among ourselves and we worked together for years to figure out just about every single part on the car. It took a village to figure out some of the mysteries but eventually we were able to figure out as a team what one person could have never done by themselves. Even still, some of the for-profit types went to extreme lengths to literally steal information or paid other people to buy parts so they could get their hands on them. It sounds insane but people do crazy things when money is involved.

Anyway, long story short is that if you have a specific question I can give you answers on a almost everything. It would take some doing though to figure out what I could blanket share in one large file dump without crossing any lines with people I'm working with or have worked with in the past.

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That's too bad you feel that way... I'm going to try to be as tactful as responsible because I don't want to come across as argumentative or offend you. You have your reasons - some may or may not be in your control... So here goes.

I don't understand people who search out information like this and then tuck it away for only themselves and a few friends. This seems to be limited to people in the prop community where there seem to be two camps... those who openly share everything from product to process because they want everyone else to share in their joy/excitement etc. The other side keeps everything secret. It was there time and possibly money spent finding the answers and why should they share it for free. Thank goodness this message board isn't filled with people with that ideology. Imagine if other DeLorean owners had tips and techniques for fixing their cars but refused to share them with the community... Kinda seems counter intuitive to the word "community."

One other point... You mentioned capitalism in regards to people hoarding parts and selling them for 10x the regular price. Aren't you basically doing the same thing with information? The people that would do that sort of thing already know what those parts are and are well known in the Time Machine building world. If you want to dismantle their ability to gouge people and overcharge them, what better way than to blanket release all the information? You basically take away their power to drive up pricing because everyone has the ability to try to find their own parts.

So do I have a specific question... Sure I'm curious about the specific manufacturer and part number for every piece that was sourced for the build. I guess I'll have to ask in multiple posts over the course of several weeks. Clearly I'm being sarcastic I'm just disappointed that you would come to this board and dangle a carrot like that and then agree to drop little bits and pieces here and there when you fell like it. Too bad.

Cheers
Steven

No offense taken to anything in your post, and I personally get your frustration. A few things to consider though:

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Originally Posted by mluder

I don't understand people who search out information like this and then tuck it away for only themselves and a few friends. This seems to be limited to people in the prop community where there seem to be two camps... those who openly share everything from product to process because they want everyone else to share in their joy/excitement etc. The other side keeps everything secret. It was there time and possibly money spent finding the answers and why should they share it for free.

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I should have clarified from the beginning that the vast majority of information I can share without any restrictions. What I described as things I'm not able to share are more the exception to the rule. There are literally thousands of parts and part numbers involved to build a time machine, so to ask for everything is a bit of a stretch for me to handle. That's why I said if you have a specific question, IE a part, or a series of parts you're looking for I'll give you everything I possibly can.

Also, the two camps you described aren't as black and white as you're thinking. There's definitely a range of what people are willing to share, especially in a PM vs in an open thread on the internet. As I've tried to explain the things I can't share because they are not my intellectual property, or because I have no interest in helping a vendor find another source to buy out in mass quantity and then resell for profit. It's not that I've spent time or money to figure it out. I have no problem giving info with someone who I know is going to buy what they need for themselves to build their car.

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Originally Posted by mluder

Thank goodness this message board isn't filled with people with that ideology. Imagine if other DeLorean owners had tips and techniques for fixing their cars but refused to share them with the community... Kinda seems counter intuitive to the word "community.

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The difference here is that you're not asking for tips and techniques for building a time machine, you're asking for part numbers. The other big difference is that the majority of DeLorean parts are not insanely rare or difficult to find, and the vendors involved in the DeLorean world are mostly honest and good people. The same cannot be said for all vendors in the BTTF community. Most time machine parts are extremely limited in quantity and when that quantity is depleted there are often none left in the entire world. Parts that were once plentiful 'in the wild' at normal prices are now extinct because vendors bought up every single one they could get their hands on.

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Originally Posted by mluder

One other point... You mentioned capitalism in regards to people hoarding parts and selling them for 10x the regular price. Aren't you basically doing the same thing with information? The people that would do that sort of thing already know what those parts are and are well known in the Time Machine building world. If you want to dismantle their ability to gouge people and overcharge them, what better way than to blanket release all the information? You basically take away their power to drive up pricing because everyone has the ability to try to find their own parts.

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Not all information is known to all vendors, including part numbers, sources, dimensions, etc. That's why it's not possible to simply list off every part number as you are requesting. As I said before though, if you have a specific question on something I can answer it, most likely publicly but if not publicly perhaps in private.

To use an example of the problem with BTTF vendors, I'll use DeLorean parts as an example: Imagine that you stumbled upon a source of 100 NOS left front fenders that had previously been in a defunct dealer warehouse. You're a "share everything from product to process" kind of guy, so you post the name and phone number on DMCTalk of the guy selling them for the insanely low price of $200 each. Your hope is that there are 100 owners out there who have been looking for a reasonably priced left front fender to fix their car. To your shock and awe, before a single person can buy one someone posts on the forum that your source has sold out. The next day you see advertised on vendor XYZ's website "New arrivals! Left front fenders, 2000 each".

Would this make you rethink your sharing strategy in the future? Replace "Left front fender" with "Janitrol Heater" or "Oil Separator tank" and this has literally happened dozens of times in the BTTF community.

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Originally Posted by mluder

So do I have a specific question... Sure I'm curious about the specific manufacturer and part number for every piece that was sourced for the build. I guess I'll have to ask in multiple posts over the course of several weeks. Clearly I'm being sarcastic I'm just disappointed that you would come to this board and dangle a carrot like that and then agree to drop little bits and pieces here and there when you fell like it. Too bad.

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All I'm asking is that you be more specific than 'tell me every part number there is to know'. You're not going to be able to search for everything all at once anyway and by asking for something specific I can give you a much more detailed answer that will definitely help you more than just a list of part numbers.

If you want to know about the orange tube or some other part I can write a 1000 word essay on it and where you can probably find one, but if you simply ask for everything all at once, including all the things I'm not able to share for reasons not in my control, I'm not going to be able to help you much. Help me help you and let me know, specifically, what you want.

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Originally Posted by Mark D

I do have an excel spreadsheet that I've created over the years with part numbers/sources and other info on various parts. The issue with sharing it as it currently stands is that a lot of the information was shared with me by other people and isn't necessarily mine to post publicly... or in some cases I don't even know if the person who shared with me would care if I shared it.

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I can totally see that, and I can actually relate. Many years ago, there was an idea on the DML to try and "modernize" the Workshop Manual. The idea was to take the existing manual, and then rewrite the entire thing using proper laymen's terms, include cross-indexing between the procedures, and then to finally incorporate modernized and simplified repair procedures as had been pioneered over the years within the community itself. That last part however was a huge sticking point. After all, who really owns the rights to the material that we posted onto the DML? Certainly anything that came from De Lorean World was protected buy Copywrite, and as such was taken down (the scanned diagram on how to lace the battery straps was a prime example). But what about what we as individuals that had contributed as a group?

Contributors wanted to be compensated. Some wanted money, and others (such as myself) merely wanted credits as a co-author. I simply wanted the entire community to benefit, but yes, I wanted to at least be listed as a contributor for the efforts. And that was the compensation that I wanted. Just like later on when I started going over the patent diagrams for the Legend Industries turbo system, and wanted to know the exact specifications on the vacuum system to get the Bias Boost working, and ran into the same thing of "Well, you didn't put the work in for this knowledge, so what right do you have to just receive it without compensation?"

I was pissed at first of course because I hit a roadblock when I was told "No", but I understand it. Which is really the norm for when you're compiling research. There is a price to pay for standing on the shoulders of other people. Granted we need that ability to advance forward for the greater good, but we also need certain restrictions in order to also protect those legacies as well. So I understand where you're coming from. You've got both a community to protect, as well as your own bonds of trust.

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Originally Posted by Mark D

No offense taken to anything in your post, and I personally get your frustration. A few things to consider though:

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I appreciate your thoughtful response... I guess I'm just the kinda guy who likes to have everything at his fingertips. I references the Ghostbusters Proton Pack. there are full measured drawings readily available on the internet with all the stock part numbers and manufacturers... Many of these parts are also rare/expensive. That didn't keep anyone from freely distributing it.

To address you left front fender example... I most certainly would share the information. Yep... there might be someone out there who buys them all up to resell at a markup... Heck, it happened when DMC when out of business. However, most people in this community, and in the prop building community don't think that way. Example - a member here recently posted that they had a number of dash clocks, some in varying degrees of working/not. As far as I know only two people requested to buy units. There was no massive run on people trying to grab them up... Example from the prop community - The Rocketeer back pack buckle. For years it's origin was unknown and then one guy stumbled on the answer and immediately took to the RPF to tell the world. Why? Because the information should be open and out there. The consequences were not his to determine. The community would decide that. And if some member tried to take advantage of that information and rip-off the rest of the community, they would quickly be shut out. Ask Video Bob why he's not allowed to play in the RPF anymore...

You originally stated that you have an Excel spreadsheet with part numbers etc... I guess I don't understand why that can't be made public. You said yourself that a lot of it came from other researchers who shared the info with you. So they apparently had no problem passing it out... did they specifically tell you NOT to share it? In the end, the info is your's to do with as you will so I have to respect that even if I disagree with it.

Thanks for your time.
Steve

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Originally Posted by DMCVegas

I can totally see that, and I can actually relate. Many years ago, there was an idea on the DML to try and "modernize" the Workshop Manual. The idea was to take the existing manual, and then rewrite the entire thing using proper laymen's terms, include cross-indexing between the procedures, and then to finally incorporate modernized and simplified repair procedures as had been pioneered over the years within the community itself. That last part however was a huge sticking point. After all, who really owns the rights to the material that we posted onto the DML? Certainly anything that came from De Lorean World was protected buy Copywrite, and as such was taken down (the scanned diagram on how to lace the battery straps was a prime example). But what about what we as individuals that had contributed as a group?

Contributors wanted to be compensated. Some wanted money, and others (such as myself) merely wanted credits as a co-author. I simply wanted the entire community to benefit, but yes, I wanted to at least be listed as a contributor for the efforts. And that was the compensation that I wanted. Just like later on when I started going over the patent diagrams for the Legend Industries turbo system, and wanted to know the exact specifications on the vacuum system to get the Bias Boost working, and ran into the same thing of "Well, you didn't put the work in for this knowledge, so what right do you have to just receive it without compensation?"

I was pissed at first of course because I hit a roadblock when I was told "No", but I understand it. Which is really the norm for when you're compiling research. There is a price to pay for standing on the shoulders of other people. Granted we need that ability to advance forward for the greater good, but we also need certain restrictions in order to also protect those legacies as well. So I understand where you're coming from. You've got both a community to protect, as well as your own bonds of trust.

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But it's not like he invented anything... All he did was compile a list of the parts. The studio and special effects house is the only one who could lay claim to intellectual property. If I create a list of all the books by Charles Dickens do I have a right to demand compensation if you want access to that list. After all, it's not like I wrote the books.

I assume the workshop manual was to be sold... Was it to be sold for profit or at cost? If you sold it for cost then no one should expect any sort of compensation. Now if it cost you $5 to produce and you charged $100 for it I might start to ask about some sort of compensation too, after all, you are profiting from something I created.

Just some thoughts.
Cheers
Steve

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Originally Posted by mluder

But it's not like he invented anything... All he did was compile a list of the parts. The studio and special effects house is the only one who could lay claim to intellectual property. If I create a list of all the books by Charles Dickens do I have a right to demand compensation if you want access to that list. After all, it's not like I wrote the books.

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Well now, it's a little bit more than simple compiling. There was a great deal of effort that went into obtaining that data. What the compensation he and those that obtained the data was, I've no idea. BUT still, there is the work behind it.

Comparing easily reproducible such as a book which is in the public domain isn't quite as fair. Perhaps something more inline to this might be if perhaps you found a site where you could pan for gold. There is a finite amount of gold in that location that perhaps people need. So as for those that need the gold, this is akin to those who know the location to only give out directions to those whom they know would be responsible enough to simply take what they need, rather than to go up there and profiteer by extracting everything, and then charging an outrageous markup for no other reason than that they can.

In essence, I believe that when it comes to the prop-building community, the goal isn't to create an army of "Pharma Bros". You want to start buying time machine parts from this guy?

http://www.adweek.com/prnewser/wp-co...pharma-bro.jpg

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Originally Posted by mluder

I assume the workshop manual was to be sold... Was it to be sold for profit or at cost? If you sold it for cost then no one should expect any sort of compensation. Now if it cost you $5 to produce and you charged $100 for it I might start to ask about some sort of compensation too, after all, you are profiting from something I created.

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But even then you're saying that you have a threshold of tolerance that once crossed, you demand financial compensation. What is that line, and why do you feel that way? I would say that if "at cost" you don't deserve compensation, then no matter what the profit margins would be, you shouldn't deserve any compensation whatsoever. And I say as much because it balances out the ethic on both sides.

Again, just some thoughts from my side as well over here.

As far as part numbers go I can share pretty much all of it.. The problem with the spreadsheet is that there is a lot more information intertwined like sources and measurements that other people have taken, info on parts that were not found items and things that were fabricated from scratch. The latter are the things that I'd consider intellectual property since someone sat down for literally tens or hundreds of hours measuring stuff or studying photos to make their own unique creation. It's more than just a part number, but a product of someone's own reverse engineering and replicating skills.

The effort it would take to separate everything out into two piles, one that I can distribute for public consumption and another pile that is not would be an extremely difficult task to say the least. That is why I was hoping for more specific requests that I can pull information from not only the spreadsheet but photos and notes to give a more complete answer that will be more helpful.

I don't have all the answers either so if there is something specific I don't know I can ask other people to try and get you the info you're looking for.

At some point it would be great to compile everything into one definitive source of info like the GB proton pack stuff, but the vastness of the information makes it really difficult. Some parts are so complex and made up of so many individual piece parts you could write a book on that one single prop. Then you start talking variations between the A, B and C car as well and it's multiplied by a factor of 3.

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Originally Posted by DMCVegas

In essence, I believe that when it comes to the prop-building community, the goal isn't to create an army of "Pharma Bros". You want to start buying time machine parts from this guy?

http://www.adweek.com/prnewser/wp-co...pharma-bro.jpg

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Yeah... look how well that worked out for him though... :)

Cheers
Steve

Mark is super cool and as respectful and generous with information as anyone I've encountered in the hobby. Seriously a stand-up guy.

To add my personal feeling regarding the guarding of information: A lot of us have considerable time invested in hunting down information and parts. We've incurred a cost in order to obtain parts or information. I spent eight years looking for a particular rare part, and when I found one, I found a few. I emailed friends and those who have helped me in the past to let them know what I'd found and to offer trade for parts they may have. In my case, I wanted to trade my time invested into finding part X for the time my friends had invested to find part Y or Z. This encourages cooperation between people, and allows those who are willing to do the heavy lifting to recoup the invested time. If someone thinks the hobby would be improved if everyone instantly publicly shared whatever information they gather, that's great.
The knowledge someone gains through their own toil is theirs to give away freely. But I encourage anyone who holds this opinion to get busy, walk the walk, and tell the rest of us what the worm hole emitter is.